I know card advantage is scary but is there no way to deal with him? I'm just having a hard time understand how he is a ban worthy card while the cheaper version of the drawing cards Necropotence is still allowed.
Gris can three shot someone, allows you to draw 35 cards with little worry, life links, has evasion, and is in one of the best colors for Ramp/ THE best color for cheating things into play so his high cost is moot.
Also, we have a Ban Discussion thread
Also Also, you could be like me and have Griselbrand as a French Commander
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
Not only could you pay seven life to draw seven cards, if you equipped him with lightning greaves you could also earn back the seven life you payed that same turn, plus he is effectively a three turn clock with evasion, plus you could easily cheat him into play. I seen a guy pay 14 life in one turn, discard 7 of the lands he drew, then swing with Griselbrand to regain 7 life.
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Generals
Vorosh BUG
Sygg
Molimo
Intent RUG
Rith RWG
Purphoros
Let's you draw your deck and it's on a huge lifelinking stick with evasion. As a general, he's a 3 hit KO. Even in the 99, he's crazy good in reanimator. I had him briefly in a Teneb list and I would throw him in my graveyard and bring him back on the cheap every single game because he was that good. I could use him to dump all of my fatties into my graveyard and reanimate the board EOT with Twilight's Call. I sometimes did that as early as turn 5 and that's not even him at his most cutthroat.
The relevant part of all of this is that he can draw you as many cards as you need. If you do mono black combo, you could ramp like crazy into him, draw your combo and win on the spot. He was absurd. I'm perfectly okay with him being banned.
I know card advantage is scary but is there no way to deal with him? I'm just having a hard time understand how he is a ban worthy card while the cheaper version of the drawing cards Necropotence is still allowed.
To add to all this, there is also a specific thread for this format's ban list, and a quick search will reveal this exact question has been asked and answered multiple times before.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
So no one plays card draw hate or instant creature removal or counter spells? What about stuff to stop his ability or players from casting him? Does the format really have no answers? Plus he is still more fair than most blue things.
Because Gris isn't anything like Necro, it's a Yawgmoth's Bargain except situationally better.
Mainly, it's a Yawgmoth's Bargain that you can:
a) cast from the Command Zone (i.e. is always available)
b) as a non-commander, can cheat out on turn 1 with Reanimate
c) draw your deck and use IT to win with general damage
When the card was spoiled, I went to work to brew a degenerate monoblack Griselbrand combo deck. It went off turns 2-4 pretty consistently. Many others made similar monstrosities. "Cast commander. draw 35 cards" is pretty ridiculous. Just saying.
Non-tuck spot removal isn't much of an issue. After you draw, you may not need it anymore. And if you need to chain lifegain into more draw, it's not like you can't get it out again. Exile just sends it back to the command zone, where you might be able to cast it again that same turn if you can assemble a mana engine. Regular killing leaves it open to Shallow Grave effects bringing it back for cheap, with haste! So removal is just a speedbump. You can do the math to play around it. Remember, you just drew 28-35 cards, which is a LOT for a monocolor combo deck to work with.
Counterspells can stop it cold, sure. But counterspells are not multiplayer friendly, so many people don't run a lot. They put you behind parity, because you can't stop broken things everyone is doing, so committing to pure-counter/control is usually weak. So most people just splash a few, which they may not have in hand or may not have mana up for when you go off (assuming you are playing FFA and not 5 v 1). They have to draw a counterspell. You don't have to draw Griselbrand. They have to stall their own board development (while other players develop) to hold up counters to scare you. Meanwhile, monoblack combo can play 1cc discard to strip counterspells from people obviously broadcasting they're holding counters up.
So yeah, removal and counters work if everyone gangs up on you or if your meta has one or more pure counterspell decks, but IMO that's a sign your meta's already broken... and a good reason to ban it.
So no one plays card draw hate or instant creature removal or counter spells? What about stuff to stop his ability or players from casting him? Does the format really have no answers? Plus he is still more fair than most blue things.
How is he "more fair" than most blue things? Even Azami needs another card (Mind Over Matter) to draw the deck. Grieslbrand does it all on his own. Also, counterspells are not the aetherial trump card everyone thinks they are. My Teferi deck packs 14 counterspells and I sometimes don't see one when I need it. It's especially bad when people figure that out, because your greatest advantage as a blue mage (power of dissuasion) is gone.
Card draw hate? You mean like Nekusar or Underworld Dreams? That MIGHT work. The thing is, you pretty much have to be playing black for that to be a thing and even then, there's no guarantee you'll do any kind of damage. The point of Griselbrand is the player doesn't mind taking the hit as long as they get everything they need to win. If you're playing something like Boros, you're SOL.
Furthermore, he can respond to just about any removal (without split second) by drawing cards. Here's how it goes down:
Player 1: Griselbrand. Draw seven cards.
Player 2: Terminate
Player 1: Response: draw seven cards. Draw seven cards. Draw seven cards. Got my combo.
Player 2: So Terminate resolves?
Player 1: Yep. Play combo. I win.
This looks very similar to how Azami likes to win, but you have to remember some key details. Azami is a 0/2, that means things like Sudden Death kill her while Griselbrand dodges it. Krosan Grip blows up Mind Over Matter and disrupts the combo. Griselbrand isn't even a legal target. It has to do with the fact that he's a one man show and is much harder to take out.
So no one plays card draw hate or instant creature removal or counter spells? What about stuff to stop his ability or players from casting him? Does the format really have no answers? Plus he is still more fair than most blue things.
This logic is wrong on almost all points.
1) A card having answers does not mean it is fair.
2) Non-Tinker/non-Power blue cards wish they could be as absurd as Grisel.
3) You don't seem to want to listen to our reasons anyway.
So no one plays card draw hate or instant creature removal or counter spells? What about stuff to stop his ability or players from casting him? Does the format really have no answers? Plus he is still more fair than most blue things.
This logic is wrong on almost all points.
1) A card having answers does not mean it is fair.
2) Non-Tinker/non-Power blue cards wish they could be as absurd as Grisel.
3) You don't seem to want to listen to our reasons anyway.
You guys didn't link reasons above that statement.
Also, we have a Ban Discussion thread
Also Also, you could be like me and have Griselbrand as a French Commander
Vorosh BUG
Sygg
Molimo
Intent RUG
Rith RWG
Purphoros
The relevant part of all of this is that he can draw you as many cards as you need. If you do mono black combo, you could ramp like crazy into him, draw your combo and win on the spot. He was absurd. I'm perfectly okay with him being banned.
UAzami, Locus of All KnowledgeU
BMarrow-Gnawer, Crime Lord of ComboB
WBRTariel, Hellraiser StaxWBR
Annul is really good in EDH
Instant Creature Removal: This doesn't stop the Stack, which still allows the player playing Grisel to draw 14-20 cards before he's gone.
Card Draw Hate: Like what?
Mainly, it's a Yawgmoth's Bargain that you can:
a) cast from the Command Zone (i.e. is always available)
b) as a non-commander, can cheat out on turn 1 with Reanimate
c) draw your deck and use IT to win with general damage
When the card was spoiled, I went to work to brew a degenerate monoblack Griselbrand combo deck. It went off turns 2-4 pretty consistently. Many others made similar monstrosities. "Cast commander. draw 35 cards" is pretty ridiculous. Just saying.
Non-tuck spot removal isn't much of an issue. After you draw, you may not need it anymore. And if you need to chain lifegain into more draw, it's not like you can't get it out again. Exile just sends it back to the command zone, where you might be able to cast it again that same turn if you can assemble a mana engine. Regular killing leaves it open to Shallow Grave effects bringing it back for cheap, with haste! So removal is just a speedbump. You can do the math to play around it. Remember, you just drew 28-35 cards, which is a LOT for a monocolor combo deck to work with.
Counterspells can stop it cold, sure. But counterspells are not multiplayer friendly, so many people don't run a lot. They put you behind parity, because you can't stop broken things everyone is doing, so committing to pure-counter/control is usually weak. So most people just splash a few, which they may not have in hand or may not have mana up for when you go off (assuming you are playing FFA and not 5 v 1). They have to draw a counterspell. You don't have to draw Griselbrand. They have to stall their own board development (while other players develop) to hold up counters to scare you. Meanwhile, monoblack combo can play 1cc discard to strip counterspells from people obviously broadcasting they're holding counters up.
So yeah, removal and counters work if everyone gangs up on you or if your meta has one or more pure counterspell decks, but IMO that's a sign your meta's already broken... and a good reason to ban it.
How is he "more fair" than most blue things? Even Azami needs another card (Mind Over Matter) to draw the deck. Grieslbrand does it all on his own. Also, counterspells are not the aetherial trump card everyone thinks they are. My Teferi deck packs 14 counterspells and I sometimes don't see one when I need it. It's especially bad when people figure that out, because your greatest advantage as a blue mage (power of dissuasion) is gone.
Card draw hate? You mean like Nekusar or Underworld Dreams? That MIGHT work. The thing is, you pretty much have to be playing black for that to be a thing and even then, there's no guarantee you'll do any kind of damage. The point of Griselbrand is the player doesn't mind taking the hit as long as they get everything they need to win. If you're playing something like Boros, you're SOL.
Furthermore, he can respond to just about any removal (without split second) by drawing cards. Here's how it goes down:
Player 1: Griselbrand. Draw seven cards.
Player 2: Terminate
Player 1: Response: draw seven cards. Draw seven cards. Draw seven cards. Got my combo.
Player 2: So Terminate resolves?
Player 1: Yep. Play combo. I win.
This looks very similar to how Azami likes to win, but you have to remember some key details. Azami is a 0/2, that means things like Sudden Death kill her while Griselbrand dodges it. Krosan Grip blows up Mind Over Matter and disrupts the combo. Griselbrand isn't even a legal target. It has to do with the fact that he's a one man show and is much harder to take out.
UAzami, Locus of All KnowledgeU
BMarrow-Gnawer, Crime Lord of ComboB
WBRTariel, Hellraiser StaxWBR
Annul is really good in EDH
This logic is wrong on almost all points.
1) A card having answers does not mean it is fair.
2) Non-Tinker/non-Power blue cards wish they could be as absurd as Grisel.
3) You don't seem to want to listen to our reasons anyway.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
You guys didn't link reasons above that statement.
I guess this Spirit of the Labyrinth doesn't do much to effect Griselbrand. Same with Notion thief,trickbind,Plagiarize,Possessed Portal, Jace's Archivist,Winds of Change,Windfall,Whispering Madness,Whirlpool Warrior,Timetwister,Chains of Mephistopheles,Wheel of Fortune,Time Spiral,Memory Jar,Reforge the Soul,Time Reversal,Teferi's Puzzle Box,Temporal Cascade,Magus of the Jar,and Psychic Possession. There is no way to mess up Griselbrand's draw.
To make him hurt more I guess we can't use Fate Unraveler,Kederekt Parasite, Nekusar, the Mindrazer,Phyrexian Tyranny,Molten Psyche,Spiteful Visions, Cerebral Vortex and Toil // Trouble.
More useless cards that people refuse to run vs Griselbrand Zur's Weirding,Abeyance,Angel of Jubilation,Cease-Fire,Council of the Absolute,Ethersworn Canonist,Exclusion Ritual,Iona, Shield of Emeria (because she is more fair and fun than griselbrand according to the rules),Orim's Chant,Silence,Sudden Spoiling,Take Possession, Wipe Away,Word of Seizing, and clones if you want your own.
Aren't you guys making to be worse than what he actually is? Plus you can always run the anti combo cards like extract, jester's cap, and etc...
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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