I've been trying to build decks for a while, but it never really seems to turn out right. I'm so concerned with "playing fair" that I end making something weaker than I really want it to be, or I just make really bad choices period.
So I ask you: How do I optimize a deck centered around Maralen of the Mornsong? Or is this something that can't be done, and I need to switch commanders?
I know that you need to put the best cards for cost in there (Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor rather than Diabolic Tutor), and some really unfair stuff in mono black (like Contamination), but beyond that I'm really not sure.
I don't have any specific suggestions on how to optimize your Maralen of the mornsong deck, but the best suggestion I can give is to have one "optimized" deck and one fair deck. That way you can pull out your optimized deck when you want to kick teeth in, and then you can play the fair deck to avoid upsetting your playgroup too much.
I don't think that Maralen has issues with optimization, and doesn't need much work to be a decent toolbox Commander/combo enabler. I think her biggest issues lie in the fact that she can be a divisive Commander with respect to the politics of the group, and paints a fairly large target on herself as a result. Unfortunately, I don't think that deck construction can ever fully resolve that issue, and is more something you have to discuss with your group at large to see where the discrepancies lie, and how they may be resolved.
Should you still wish to play Maralen in your group, you may need to work the political side of the game a little harder. Aligning yourself with the players who don't have massive draw-engines can be useful, as they're more likely to prefer Vampiric Tutor-ing every turn when they know they weren't going to cast Recurring Insight or Greater Good anyway. Getting on the good side of anyone who uses Stranglehold will also go a long way during a game, especially as B has a fairly limited number of ways to deal with enchantments (mostly Karn/Spine).
Should you feel that a change in Commander is in order though, there are a few mono-B Commanders who could fill in for Maralen adequately (and still allowing Maralen to sit in the 99):
Erebos, God of the Dead: provides card draw in exchange for life & mana, and is slower/more expensive than Maralen, but is Indestructible and prevents life-gain as a bonus. Seizan, Perverter of Truth: also provides draw in exchange for life, and is a global effect just like Maralen. He's a little expensive, but at least 6 power isn't terrible. Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed: can provide some solid utility if you feel like shifting towards mill &/or recursion. Toshiro Umezawa: also provides some recursive utility by acting as a pseudo-Snapcaster Mage.
If that's the case, then I may need to change some things up. I've found that Maralen is REALLY difficult to build around, as there aren't many mono-black cards that punish or prevent searching libraries.
If that's the case, then I may need to change some things up. I've found that Maralen is REALLY difficult to build around, as there aren't many mono-black cards that punish or prevent searching libraries.
Run every single black tutor you can get your hands on, cast Vedalken Orrery, cast your commander end of your opponent's turn. On your turn tutor for whatever, before an opponent gets to use her ability, sacrifice her at the end of your turn, and then put her back on top of your library with Volrath's Stronghold...? Probably not very viable, but yeah. Usually you'd want to build a deck with her that searches for combo pieces, wanting to play a fair deck with her at the helm gets significantly harder though lol
Is the second rule/guideline for every single deck out there, or just this one? O_o
So far, it's wound applying to 12/12 of my decks over a 4-year period.
Granted, it's probably dangerous to do so in a Jester's Cap-happy metagame.
And I'll second the Orrery-necessity. Flash her in right before your turn.
I play an Erebos deck - so I'll have something to do with all that extra mana - but when you play maralen, make sure you get something goood - especially if you've played her "fairly" and let everyone else get a free-ish tutor before yourself.
I tend to build decks that generally ft into my meta's philosophy. Mine is not cut throat so I generally try to keep it fun. That is why I like marath, he is utility general with fun colors, and he can be competitive with out being broken.
Just a side note, people see maralen and will focus you thinking that you are playing combo.
What works for me:
20+ cards that are engines themselves or with some other pieces in the deck/tutors (Bloodghast + Skullclamp, or Phyrexian Arena)
20+ Removal/card advantage generating answers (Shriekmaw is a prime example)
35-40 lands depending on your curve.
20-25 strong staples and things that work well with the deck style including theme. This is where your wincons are.(Maralen can tutor for them, so you dont need many.)
The lower your total curve, and the more engines you run, the better your deck will run. Hope that helps!
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
I've decided to change this to make it easier to build around, and less "friendly."
It would be centered around Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge, from the Mind Seize precon, and library manipulation. Not just my library though. EVERYONE'S libraries! With scry effects and cards like Soothsaying, I would ensure that she would never whiff when I summon her. And with cards like Psychic Surgery, I would make sure that my opponents always had something useful on top of their decks. Maralen of the Mornsong would fit in by making sure they can't topdeck anything I need (or that they need), while Stranglehold and/or Mindlock Orb. There's other stuff too, but it would be focused mainly on big spells and library manipulation.
How does that sound in concept?
EDIT: As a sidenote, do you guys have any ideas of what might help this deck? I've got Spin into Myth, and Memory Lapse, but I'm still looking for good stuff.
I've been trying to build decks for a while, but it never really seems to turn out right. I'm so concerned with "playing fair" that I end making something weaker than I really want it to be, or I just make really bad choices period.
So I ask you: How do I optimize a deck centered around Maralen of the Mornsong? Or is this something that can't be done, and I need to switch commanders?
I know that you need to put the best cards for cost in there (Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor rather than Diabolic Tutor), and some really unfair stuff in mono black (like Contamination), but beyond that I'm really not sure.
I actually do the opposite and "de-optimize" my EDH deck to not have it crush my casual playgroup on a regular basis, which, for me, is the much harder part.
I think a lot of people has this problem. The typical solution to it is to find some theme and then stick to it (this weakens the deck). I.e. I like my pauper deck a lot which is a very easy theme to follow.
To everybody else, winning all the time is fun for awhile but it gets old. At some point you either stop playing commander or weaken your decks (at least from what I have seen).
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"Hail to the speaker, hail to the knower; joy to he who has understood, delight to they who have listened." - Odin
This is an article from 2011 using Maralen as the commander and what I consider the opitimized version of what you can do with Maralen - using AD Nauseum. There are probably improvements and upgrades that can be made since the deck is 3 years old, but it will kill the table very quickly. I would anticipate that you could play it 3 times before your playgroups bans that particular deck.
If you are going to play Maralen I would instead go the "less optimized" route and include cards like Ob-Nix, or play Maralen in multicolored deck and run cards like Stranglehold to supplement Maralen.
To optimize your decks, I personally think you need to focus on a fun/power balance. Making decks too powerful for your meta could result in boring, repetitive games.
I had a Karador deck that could combo off one of a million ways, but disassembled it to rebuild The Mimeoplasm. He still provides reanimator shenanigans, but also can have some fun interactions with opponents dead things. The deck isn't as powerful as my Karador one, but it is more fun while remaining strong. (Plus Mimeo was my first commander, so I kinda missed him/it.)
I optimize by improving lands and lowering overall cmc. With 20+ decks this could get expensive as I won't proxy cards... so most of my decks aren't optimized by any stretch of the imagination.
Besides, I am one of those players who enjoy the flashy overcosted spells, and optimizing often means cutting them.
I really like the suggestion about mixing colors with Maralen, if only to gain access to more cards that synergize with tutoring every turn. Stranglehold has been mentioned, but there is also Psychic Surgery for regular, if random, exiling.
Cheers!
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If in the area, check out Gamers N Geeks and Mini War Games in Mobile, Alabama and Underhill's Games in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio.
Are you looking for help building mono black in general? Do you want help building mono black control? Do you want to play duels or multiplayer? In a duel deck, filling it up with Edicts, discard and land destruction is really good. If you want to play multiplayer, then you don't want to do much of any of that.
Mono black doesn't care about making the table angry. It will hit everyone at the table at once and not think twice about it. Words of Waste + Geth's Grimoire can pretty much end games by mind twisting the table and drawing you a ton of cards. Braids, Cabal Minion isn't allowed as your commander, but she can be part of your 99 along with Smokestack. Your opponent had better exile Braids, because black is the king of graveyard recursion. Oh, and even if they exile Braids... you can use Death Wish to get her right back. Bottomless Pit is just another way to hurt the table.
I don't think Maralen is the best choice for a MBC commander, but it's your call. I just love the resource wars that mono black can create.
Herald of Leshrac is a really good general choice, and combined with sacrifice outlets, you can really abuse him.
Kagemaro, First to Suffer as a general gives you consistent access to wrath like effects, and -x/-x can also get around indestructible. When the general tax gets too high, just let him stay in the graveyard and bring him back from there over and over again.
I could go on and on, but I hope this helps.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I run a Sydri deck and everyone got tired of the inf combos in the deck so I removed them for other spells that still help me but still hurt them. The deck still has small combos and can generate a lot of mana very quickly but im not running like grim monolith and power artifact with a staff of domination and winning that turn anymore. I also eliminated most of the tutors in the deck. I am just down to an enlightened tutor and increasing ambition, mostly cause the flashback on it.
Some annoying interactions still are in the deck like
I am looking to get my hands on a Muzzio, Visionary Architect because he can "miss" and isn't as broken as say Arcum Dagsson which would generally get people to scoop and move to the next game.
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So I ask you: How do I optimize a deck centered around Maralen of the Mornsong? Or is this something that can't be done, and I need to switch commanders?
I know that you need to put the best cards for cost in there (Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor rather than Diabolic Tutor), and some really unfair stuff in mono black (like Contamination), but beyond that I'm really not sure.
EDIT: It'd help if I put the link to my in here, wouldn't it? Yeah, it probably would.
Rakdos The Defiler: A Zero-Sum Game
Varolz, The Scar-Striped
Thanks,
MattHonkylips
Should you still wish to play Maralen in your group, you may need to work the political side of the game a little harder. Aligning yourself with the players who don't have massive draw-engines can be useful, as they're more likely to prefer Vampiric Tutor-ing every turn when they know they weren't going to cast Recurring Insight or Greater Good anyway. Getting on the good side of anyone who uses Stranglehold will also go a long way during a game, especially as B has a fairly limited number of ways to deal with enchantments (mostly Karn/Spine).
Should you feel that a change in Commander is in order though, there are a few mono-B Commanders who could fill in for Maralen adequately (and still allowing Maralen to sit in the 99):
Erebos, God of the Dead: provides card draw in exchange for life & mana, and is slower/more expensive than Maralen, but is Indestructible and prevents life-gain as a bonus.
Seizan, Perverter of Truth: also provides draw in exchange for life, and is a global effect just like Maralen. He's a little expensive, but at least 6 power isn't terrible.
Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed: can provide some solid utility if you feel like shifting towards mill &/or recursion.
Toshiro Umezawa: also provides some recursive utility by acting as a pseudo-Snapcaster Mage.
RRR - Bosh's School of Hard(cover) Knocks
Run every single black tutor you can get your hands on, cast Vedalken Orrery, cast your commander end of your opponent's turn. On your turn tutor for whatever, before an opponent gets to use her ability, sacrifice her at the end of your turn, and then put her back on top of your library with Volrath's Stronghold...? Probably not very viable, but yeah. Usually you'd want to build a deck with her that searches for combo pieces, wanting to play a fair deck with her at the helm gets significantly harder though lol
Don't play more than 5 finishers.
Keep notes.
Is the second rule/guideline for every single deck out there, or just this one? O_o
So far, it's wound applying to 12/12 of my decks over a 4-year period.
Granted, it's probably dangerous to do so in a Jester's Cap-happy metagame.
And I'll second the Orrery-necessity. Flash her in right before your turn.
I play an Erebos deck - so I'll have something to do with all that extra mana - but when you play maralen, make sure you get something goood - especially if you've played her "fairly" and let everyone else get a free-ish tutor before yourself.
What works for me:
20+ cards that are engines themselves or with some other pieces in the deck/tutors (Bloodghast + Skullclamp, or Phyrexian Arena)
20+ Removal/card advantage generating answers (Shriekmaw is a prime example)
35-40 lands depending on your curve.
20-25 strong staples and things that work well with the deck style including theme. This is where your wincons are.(Maralen can tutor for them, so you dont need many.)
The lower your total curve, and the more engines you run, the better your deck will run. Hope that helps!
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
I think that sounds like a good rule for combo or control decks, but doesn't really apply to something like Mayael the Anima =P
Edit: 1000th post O_o
WUBDakkon, a Tribute
BChainer, the demonlord!
RWAurelia
WBKarlov of the Ghost Council
It would be centered around Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge, from the Mind Seize precon, and library manipulation. Not just my library though. EVERYONE'S libraries! With scry effects and cards like Soothsaying, I would ensure that she would never whiff when I summon her. And with cards like Psychic Surgery, I would make sure that my opponents always had something useful on top of their decks. Maralen of the Mornsong would fit in by making sure they can't topdeck anything I need (or that they need), while Stranglehold and/or Mindlock Orb. There's other stuff too, but it would be focused mainly on big spells and library manipulation.
How does that sound in concept?
EDIT: As a sidenote, do you guys have any ideas of what might help this deck? I've got Spin into Myth, and Memory Lapse, but I'm still looking for good stuff.
I think a lot of people has this problem. The typical solution to it is to find some theme and then stick to it (this weakens the deck). I.e. I like my pauper deck a lot which is a very easy theme to follow.
To everybody else, winning all the time is fun for awhile but it gets old. At some point you either stop playing commander or weaken your decks (at least from what I have seen).
This is an article from 2011 using Maralen as the commander and what I consider the opitimized version of what you can do with Maralen - using AD Nauseum. There are probably improvements and upgrades that can be made since the deck is 3 years old, but it will kill the table very quickly. I would anticipate that you could play it 3 times before your playgroups bans that particular deck.
If you are going to play Maralen I would instead go the "less optimized" route and include cards like Ob-Nix, or play Maralen in multicolored deck and run cards like Stranglehold to supplement Maralen.
I had a Karador deck that could combo off one of a million ways, but disassembled it to rebuild The Mimeoplasm. He still provides reanimator shenanigans, but also can have some fun interactions with opponents dead things. The deck isn't as powerful as my Karador one, but it is more fun while remaining strong. (Plus Mimeo was my first commander, so I kinda missed him/it.)
MuzzioU XenagosGR NahiriW GitrogGB MarathGRW MarchesaUBR JenaraGUW KarlovBW TazriWUBRG
Retired: RakdosBR
Besides, I am one of those players who enjoy the flashy overcosted spells, and optimizing often means cutting them.
I really like the suggestion about mixing colors with Maralen, if only to gain access to more cards that synergize with tutoring every turn. Stranglehold has been mentioned, but there is also Psychic Surgery for regular, if random, exiling.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
Ob Nixilis, Unshackled is Maralen of the Mornsong's best friend.
Mono black doesn't care about making the table angry. It will hit everyone at the table at once and not think twice about it. Words of Waste + Geth's Grimoire can pretty much end games by mind twisting the table and drawing you a ton of cards. Braids, Cabal Minion isn't allowed as your commander, but she can be part of your 99 along with Smokestack. Your opponent had better exile Braids, because black is the king of graveyard recursion. Oh, and even if they exile Braids... you can use Death Wish to get her right back. Bottomless Pit is just another way to hurt the table.
I don't think Maralen is the best choice for a MBC commander, but it's your call. I just love the resource wars that mono black can create.
Demonic Hordes & Minion of Leshrac are good on their own, but Thousand-Year Elixir, Magewright's Stone, Rings of Brighthearth and Illusionist's Bracers can all take them over the top allowing you to hit multiple lands again and again. Helldozer is also good but it's BBB activation cost is a bit more difficult to abuse.
Herald of Leshrac is a really good general choice, and combined with sacrifice outlets, you can really abuse him.
Kagemaro, First to Suffer as a general gives you consistent access to wrath like effects, and -x/-x can also get around indestructible. When the general tax gets too high, just let him stay in the graveyard and bring him back from there over and over again.
I could go on and on, but I hope this helps.
Some annoying interactions still are in the deck like
Sydri, Galvanic Genius and Caltrops (makes attacking me impossible unless its indestructible)
Mycosynth Lattice and March of the Machines (permanent armageddon)
Venser, the Sojourner + Trinket Mage + Elixir of Immortality can frustrate people, especially if I have a Vedalken Orrery in play.
I am looking to get my hands on a Muzzio, Visionary Architect because he can "miss" and isn't as broken as say Arcum Dagsson which would generally get people to scoop and move to the next game.