So, I'm looking to put together a Horde of Notions EDH deck (I would probably run Progenitus, but there are two Progenitus decks in the group I play in already).
Aside from a fairly strong elemental theme in the deck, I'm trying to find various cards that you can't normally play (or can't play at all) outside of a 5-color deck. Some powerful cards that don't show up in EDH much because of the color restrictions, and so forth.
Two options I already know about are the Bringers (blue and black mostly), as well as the Nephilim (looking forward to that, as they aren't played in my group). I also figure the Sen Triplets will be unusually useful, since I'm always going to have the colors my opponents use.
Does anyone else know of any unique tricks that a 5-color deck can pull that just doesn't work as well in 3 or less colors?
I like Prismatic Omen + Last Stand quite a bit.
Many of the cool WUBRG-colored cards are probably fine. Fist of Suns lets you cheat expensive mana cost. Conflux is a crazy tutor. Maelstrom Archangel is fun times. Maelstrom Nexus lets you do cool cascades (and synergizes fairly well with your general as you can cast elementals during other people's turns to trigger it)
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If you look on the Gatherer, anything with the keyword "domain" gets a decent effect out of 5c. Grinning Totem and Praetor's Grasp let you play things out of other people's decks. Depending on your dual/shock/fetch situation, Global Ruin can be particularly powerful. Maze's End doubles as a win-con and a Thawing Glaciers if your mana base is more budget.
He's not exactly a powerhouse, but Etched Monstrosity has justified his spot in my Reaper King deck. At minimum he's a 5/5 beater you can run out regardless of which colours of mana you are missing.
you guys are thinking too small for the small cost of WWUUBBRRGG you can make someone lose the game with Door to Nothingness. This gets even better if you have an Academy Ruins
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I will be typing up deck lists as soon as I an be bothered, I really only play EDH:
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
As a guy who loves his Horde of Notions deck I think I can offer a few ideas.
First off: I wouldn't run the filters life Kaleidostone or Crystal Quarry. A few fetches, the ten shocks and a few ramp spells will consistently let you play whatever you want on turn 4/5.
Second: Just because it has 5 colors on it doesn't mean it's good. The black bringer is worth running, but even the blue is pushing it. Would you rather pay 5 mana to draw 2 cards in a while, or 10 mana to gain MASSIVE card advantage almost immediately?
Third: Just check out my list. The link is in my sig. While you might not want to run it like I do and run more janky cycles, you'll probably still find some interesting stuff.
Fourth: Horde doesn't need to many elementals. I feel like the ones I have and Ashes of the Fallen is plenty of uses for his ability. Forcing in sub-par elementals makes the deck function much worse without the general. Ask yourself: Would I play this with Sliver Queen as my general?
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My Decks:
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUBCheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
ElliotS: I don't feel like your fourth point is entirely true. There's a few cards that are probably unplayable in Silver Queen, but become oppressively powerful in Horde, like Crib Swap. I probably wouldn't consider Maelstrom Wanderer in Silver Queen, but the ability to cascade on a Horde-cast is pretty awesome.
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I'm really glad you mentioned Crib Swap, because that has me really excited.
Also, ElliotS, I do like a lot of your points, but I'm probably going to be running Crystal Quarry at least, as I'm not quite ready to drop the money on an entire set of shocklands and several fetchlands to speed up my mana base a little bit. While I AM expecting to spend more of my deck's money on lands and mana cards than I usually do (because I usually run two-color decks where mana isn't that hard to balance), getting those lands would cost quite a bit more than I'm looking to spend right now.
That being said, depending on my final build, I may be willing to take the hit for the shocklands for two reasons... 1: Because they have basic land subtypes, which works nicely with a lot of cards. And 2: Because the Shocklands are awesome, and I want to own them anyway.
The fetchlands though... those will have to wait I'm afraid. Which incidentally means the shocklands will be less awesome, but I can live with that for now.
I do like the idea of using Ashes of the Fallen to benefit from Horde of Notion's ability, without giving slots to sub-par creatures too.
Alternatively, you could just play only the good elementals and make it a control/voltron deck with the added utility of your general's ability.
That way you can keep it purely tribal (or close to it) and it plays right into your strategy.
I too play a Horde of Notions deck but with a slightely different focus than ElliotS' list. My version runs Stoneforge Mystic, Godo, Bandit Warlord and Tezzeret, the Seeker with a powerful equipment suite (Hordes body is perfect to carry equipments). So to get back to the original question I can dafinitely recommend Sunforger. I know it's already kind of a staple but in 5c it's by far at its most powerful. You can get counterspells, removal and even tutors along a lot of other utility (look into tthe different charms). Getting Sunforger active is usually game winning.
I also agree with ElliotS in that you shouldn't run elementals that aren't really good by themselves. I run Shriekmaw, Mulldrifter, Reveillark, Maelstrom Wanderer (which is backbreaking if recast 2-3 times via Horde), Crib Swap, Avenger of Zendikar (which I contemplate to cut) and Flickerwisp. Flickerwisp is a hugely underplayed card imo. It's ability to flicker any permanent until end of turn is a swiss pocket knife solution to so many situtations and becomes especially awesome if you can cast it at instant speed via Horde
ElliotS: I don't feel like your fourth point is entirely true. There's a few cards that are probably unplayable in Silver Queen, but become oppressively powerful in Horde, like Crib Swap. I probably wouldn't consider Maelstrom Wanderer in Silver Queen, but the ability to cascade on a Horde-cast is pretty awesome.
Yeah, there's definitely a balance. I play both of those cards in my build, and you're right that at least crib swap wouldn't be played. My point still stands though if taken with some common sense. "Does this card suck without Horde of Notions?" If so, don't play it. The only card I play that sucks without Horde is Ashes of the Fallen, but it's only 2 mana and so good I can't think of a reason not to run it. The cards I'm talking about are things like Arc Runner and Ashmouth Hound.
I'm really glad you mentioned Crib Swap, because that has me really excited.
Also, ElliotS, I do like a lot of your points, but I'm probably going to be running Crystal Quarry at least, as I'm not quite ready to drop the money on an entire set of shocklands and several fetchlands to speed up my mana base a little bit. While I AM expecting to spend more of my deck's money on lands and mana cards than I usually do (because I usually run two-color decks where mana isn't that hard to balance), getting those lands would cost quite a bit more than I'm looking to spend right now.
That being said, depending on my final build, I may be willing to take the hit for the shocklands for two reasons... 1: Because they have basic land subtypes, which works nicely with a lot of cards. And 2: Because the Shocklands are awesome, and I want to own them anyway.
The fetchlands though... those will have to wait I'm afraid. Which incidentally means the shocklands will be less awesome, but I can live with that for now.
I do like the idea of using Ashes of the Fallen to benefit from Horde of Notion's ability, without giving slots to sub-par creatures too.
The Shocklands are honestly the most important part of the deck. If you're going to play 5 color, either see if your playgroup will let you proxy or shell out the cash, because it's important. Fetches can come later, and even be replaced by other janky lands like Crystal Quarry.
Horde's ability is back-breaking with Crib Swap and Maelstrom Wanderer. (to the point that people purposely avoid removing him unless they have grave-hate.) Ashes of the Fallen and Fertilid (Has saved me more than a few times, even just as a blocker.) are the two other elementals I felt met the qualifications to be in the deck.
Running more than 4 is obviously fine, but I personally love horde for his sexy body and keywords. To me the other ability is just icing on the cake.
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My Decks:
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUBCheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
The Shocklands are honestly the most important part of the deck. If you're going to play 5 color, either see if your playgroup will let you proxy or shell out the cash, because it's important. Fetches can come later, and even be replaced by other janky lands like Crystal Quarry.
Except in a particularly competitive meta, a person should be able to get by with the five Vivid lands, the five three-color taplands, stuff like Rupture Spire, and lots of basic fetching and fixers. If I ever make a WUBRG deck I'd try to include Crystal Quarry and Kaleidostone, if only for the art. They also play nice with Sol Ring and other quick colorless generators.
The Shocklands are honestly the most important part of the deck. If you're going to play 5 color, either see if your playgroup will let you proxy or shell out the cash, because it's important. Fetches can come later, and even be replaced by other janky lands like Crystal Quarry.
Except in a particularly competitive meta, a person should be able to get by with the five Vivid lands, the five three-color taplands, stuff like Rupture Spire, and lots of basic fetching and fixers. If I ever make a WUBRG deck I'd try to include Crystal Quarry and Kaleidostone, if only for the art. They also play nice with Sol Ring and other quick colorless generators.
I've found the impact of having a lot of lands that ETB tapped makes 5c decks freaking aweful to play. The only thing worse than getting color screwed is drawing the land you need to fix your colors and cast a spell and not being able to cast it for another turn. Plus cards like Skyshroud Claim become pretty awful.
As for the fetches; I heard from somewhere that they've confirmed they'll reprint them in some set within a year or two, so that modern doesn't take a hit due to these staples costing $60+ bucks. Take it with a grain of salt, I don't know 100% if that's true, but consider not buying fetches until then to avoid wasting $$$.
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My Decks:
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUBCheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
I'm sure shocks - especially with fetches - are better, but Cruel Control played 11-12 ETB tapped lands in Standard back in the day. And some competitive Theros Block decks play 12 temples. That's like playing 16-18 lands that ETB tapped in EDH. I've played against a Reaper King EDH deck that contained only cards legal in Lorwyn-Shadowmoor Block and it seemed to work fine.
I read through the thread, hoping excitedly no one would mention Crib Swap. Alas, it's no longer little known sweet tech. Definitely run it. You can also run some other Changelings. Chameleon Colossus can just win games, Taurean Mauler is almost always value town, and Mirror Entity is gross.
I find that Lotus Cobra can give you more consistency as well. Even if you don't run the fetches, you can at least throw in Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse, which you'll probably want anyway, since any Horde deck should be running Avenger of Zendikar.
Joiner Adept also adds redundancy with Chromatic Lantern.
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Aside from a fairly strong elemental theme in the deck, I'm trying to find various cards that you can't normally play (or can't play at all) outside of a 5-color deck. Some powerful cards that don't show up in EDH much because of the color restrictions, and so forth.
Two options I already know about are the Bringers (blue and black mostly), as well as the Nephilim (looking forward to that, as they aren't played in my group). I also figure the Sen Triplets will be unusually useful, since I'm always going to have the colors my opponents use.
Does anyone else know of any unique tricks that a 5-color deck can pull that just doesn't work as well in 3 or less colors?
Many of the cool WUBRG-colored cards are probably fine. Fist of Suns lets you cheat expensive mana cost. Conflux is a crazy tutor. Maelstrom Archangel is fun times. Maelstrom Nexus lets you do cool cascades (and synergizes fairly well with your general as you can cast elementals during other people's turns to trigger it)
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
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Although not exclusive to 5c, the Ravnica gold split cards are pretty decent and you have access to any of them. I particularly like Supply // Demand (mostly Demand in 5c), Crime // Punishment, Bound // Determined, Hide // Seek, and Catch // Release.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Thraximundar Control voltron
Darien, King of Dudes The swarm
Karador, Ghost ChieftainJunk graveyard
Erebos, God of the DeadMy BIG BLACK.......deck
Zedruu the kindhearted My take on Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Roon of the Hidden Realm Bounce house
Bringer of the White Dawn is pretty good too. All of them get better with Paradox Haze, as do Honden of Seeing Winds and company.
Worldheart Phoenix could be worthwhile in certain builds.
Stop making me want to build a gimmick 5c deck with a bunch of random cycles.
already done that, its quite fun actually
Thraximundar Control voltron
Darien, King of Dudes The swarm
Karador, Ghost ChieftainJunk graveyard
Erebos, God of the DeadMy BIG BLACK.......deck
Zedruu the kindhearted My take on Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Roon of the Hidden Realm Bounce house
I've been toying with Avatar tribal in my head for awhile now with Karona, False God at the head =P
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU
First off: I wouldn't run the filters life Kaleidostone or Crystal Quarry. A few fetches, the ten shocks and a few ramp spells will consistently let you play whatever you want on turn 4/5.
Second: Just because it has 5 colors on it doesn't mean it's good. The black bringer is worth running, but even the blue is pushing it. Would you rather pay 5 mana to draw 2 cards in a while, or 10 mana to gain MASSIVE card advantage almost immediately?
Third: Just check out my list. The link is in my sig. While you might not want to run it like I do and run more janky cycles, you'll probably still find some interesting stuff.
Fourth: Horde doesn't need to many elementals. I feel like the ones I have and Ashes of the Fallen is plenty of uses for his ability. Forcing in sub-par elementals makes the deck function much worse without the general. Ask yourself: Would I play this with Sliver Queen as my general?
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUB Cheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Also, ElliotS, I do like a lot of your points, but I'm probably going to be running Crystal Quarry at least, as I'm not quite ready to drop the money on an entire set of shocklands and several fetchlands to speed up my mana base a little bit. While I AM expecting to spend more of my deck's money on lands and mana cards than I usually do (because I usually run two-color decks where mana isn't that hard to balance), getting those lands would cost quite a bit more than I'm looking to spend right now.
That being said, depending on my final build, I may be willing to take the hit for the shocklands for two reasons... 1: Because they have basic land subtypes, which works nicely with a lot of cards. And 2: Because the Shocklands are awesome, and I want to own them anyway.
The fetchlands though... those will have to wait I'm afraid. Which incidentally means the shocklands will be less awesome, but I can live with that for now.
I do like the idea of using Ashes of the Fallen to benefit from Horde of Notion's ability, without giving slots to sub-par creatures too.
That way you can keep it purely tribal (or close to it) and it plays right into your strategy.
I also agree with ElliotS in that you shouldn't run elementals that aren't really good by themselves. I run Shriekmaw, Mulldrifter, Reveillark, Maelstrom Wanderer (which is backbreaking if recast 2-3 times via Horde), Crib Swap, Avenger of Zendikar (which I contemplate to cut) and Flickerwisp. Flickerwisp is a hugely underplayed card imo. It's ability to flicker any permanent until end of turn is a swiss pocket knife solution to so many situtations and becomes especially awesome if you can cast it at instant speed via Horde
GWKarametra - The MistveiledGW
GWR Marath - The Egg-laying Wool-Milk-Pig GWR
RBGrenzo - Restrained RakdosRB
UWRGBHorde of NotionsUWRGB
Retired: Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Rafiq of the Many | Animar, Soul of Elements | Maelstrom Wanderer
Yeah, there's definitely a balance. I play both of those cards in my build, and you're right that at least crib swap wouldn't be played. My point still stands though if taken with some common sense. "Does this card suck without Horde of Notions?" If so, don't play it. The only card I play that sucks without Horde is Ashes of the Fallen, but it's only 2 mana and so good I can't think of a reason not to run it. The cards I'm talking about are things like Arc Runner and Ashmouth Hound.
The Shocklands are honestly the most important part of the deck. If you're going to play 5 color, either see if your playgroup will let you proxy or shell out the cash, because it's important. Fetches can come later, and even be replaced by other janky lands like Crystal Quarry.
Horde's ability is back-breaking with Crib Swap and Maelstrom Wanderer. (to the point that people purposely avoid removing him unless they have grave-hate.) Ashes of the Fallen and Fertilid (Has saved me more than a few times, even just as a blocker.) are the two other elementals I felt met the qualifications to be in the deck.
Running more than 4 is obviously fine, but I personally love horde for his sexy body and keywords. To me the other ability is just icing on the cake.
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUB Cheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
Except in a particularly competitive meta, a person should be able to get by with the five Vivid lands, the five three-color taplands, stuff like Rupture Spire, and lots of basic fetching and fixers. If I ever make a WUBRG deck I'd try to include Crystal Quarry and Kaleidostone, if only for the art. They also play nice with Sol Ring and other quick colorless generators.
I've found the impact of having a lot of lands that ETB tapped makes 5c decks freaking aweful to play. The only thing worse than getting color screwed is drawing the land you need to fix your colors and cast a spell and not being able to cast it for another turn. Plus cards like Skyshroud Claim become pretty awful.
As for the fetches; I heard from somewhere that they've confirmed they'll reprint them in some set within a year or two, so that modern doesn't take a hit due to these staples costing $60+ bucks. Take it with a grain of salt, I don't know 100% if that's true, but consider not buying fetches until then to avoid wasting $$$.
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUB Cheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
I find that Lotus Cobra can give you more consistency as well. Even if you don't run the fetches, you can at least throw in Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse, which you'll probably want anyway, since any Horde deck should be running Avenger of Zendikar.
Joiner Adept also adds redundancy with Chromatic Lantern.