The card, as written, is really kinda unfair all things considered. I love it, and would never leave home without it.
It can be unfair, but it likely isn't. It's never going to get you MORE ahead, unless your table was really bad at judging threats. Unlike normal removal cards this one can, and easily will, do actually nothing of consequence if you're the main threat.
It's much better than those cards. In the case of something like Dash Hopes, it's the player whose spell would be countered that will normally pay the life. Provided that player has the life, they are always able to stop the counter if they want to, which makes it nearly worthless. Council's Judgment is different. There is no way that one player alone can prevent a certain permanent from being exiled. Furthermore, in a three- or four-player game, you only need one other person to agree with you in order to guarantee that your chosen target is exiled.
I agree the card is worse than 1WW exile target permanent, but that card doesn't exist. Council's Judgment is likely to be that card in the situations where you really need it to be, and is much better than that card when someone has just resolved Genesis Wave. Admittedly it does get worse when you're playing with terrible people.
I've experienced enough pettiness in politics to know not to rely on my opponents' judgment, though. That's the big problem here: It has to be the best option for most opponents, and they have to put aside that time you swung for five or hit them with Wrath of God a few turns back.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
It's much better than those cards. In the case of something like Dash Hopes, it's the player whose spell would be countered that will normally pay the life. Provided that player has the life, they are always able to stop the counter if they want to, which makes it nearly worthless. Council's Judgment is different. There is no way that one player alone can prevent a certain permanent from being exiled. Furthermore, in a three- or four-player game, you only need one other person to agree with you in order to guarantee that your chosen target is exiled.
I agree the card is worse than 1WW exile target permanent, but that card doesn't exist. Council's Judgment is likely to be that card in the situations where you really need it to be, and is much better than that card when someone has just resolved Genesis Wave. Admittedly it does get worse when you're playing with terrible people.
I like your assessment.
Oblivion Ring is the closest thing to 1WW: Exile target permanent. And clearly it has limitations.
The card, as written, is really kinda unfair all things considered. I love it, and would never leave home without it.
It can be unfair, but it likely isn't. It's never going to get you MORE ahead, unless your table was really bad at judging threats. Unlike normal removal cards this one can, and easily will, do actually nothing of consequence if you're the main threat.
Even if you're the main threat, it still will remove problem cards because those opponents can't name your stuff anyway. Though if you're the main threat, I'd argue you don't want a removal spell, you want a Force of Will to protect your board state (so any spot removal is disheartening to see). But now we're getting into semantics at this point.
Yes but I think the point people were making is if you are in the lead and cast it everyone else will collude to vote for a more useless card on the board that you would not have cast removal for.
Yes but I think the point people were making is if you are in the lead and cast it everyone else will collude to vote for a more useless card on the board that you would not have cast removal for.
If you're in the lead, you're not looking for a removal spell. So that's a moot point.
Yes but I think the point people were making is if you are in the lead and cast it everyone else will collude to vote for a more useless card on the board that you would not have cast removal for.
If you're in the lead, you're not looking for a removal spell. So that's a moot point.
What if you're ahead, but not enough to secure a win? There's just that 1 thing on the board that stops you from winning, like a Rule of Law, and if you can bring it out you'll play like 4 other bomb spells or someting, but you can't. Everyone is open, but it's just the one floodgate to break for the win?
What if you're ahead, but not enough to secure a win? There's just that 1 thing on the board that stops you from winning, like a Rule of Law, and if you can bring it out you'll play like 4 other bomb spells or someting, but you can't. Everyone is open, but it's just the one floodgate to break for the win?
You can't really say a card isn't worth it just because it's not what you want in a corner case situation. If you're already ahead, I'm not sure why Rule of Law would be bothering you. I'm also not sure why you'd play four other bombs if you already have a solid lead. But even in that situation, it would only take convincing one other person (assuming a 3 or 4 player game) that Rule of Law needed to go because it was also preventing them from casting their own spells. And seeing as Rule of Law isn't a very well loved card, that really doesn't seem out of the realm of possibilities. So in general, Council's Judgement seems like a very good and fun card.
I'm not saying that Council's Judgement is a bad card, in fact I don't think anyone is saying that. It's a insanely powerful card. The thing I'm trying to get across is that there's times when a well placed spot removal would win you the game, while using this in the same situation can and will backfire. You can replace the Rule of Law with Silent Arbiter, Propaganda, Back to Basic, Avacyn, etc... It's amazing of a card, it's just that there's games where someone is hanging on and they're stalling until they they their silver bullet to ruin your board.
I'm not saying that Council's Judgement is a bad card, in fact I don't think anyone is saying that. It's a insanely powerful card. The thing I'm trying to get across is that there's times when a well placed spot removal would win you the game, while using this in the same situation can and will backfire. You can replace the Rule of Law with Silent Arbiter, Propaganda, Back to Basic, Avacyn, etc... It's amazing of a card, it's just that there's games where someone is hanging on and they're stalling until they they their silver bullet to ruin your board.
Ah, fair enough. I thought that was what you were implying. Honestly though I still don't think I'm quite sure what point you're making. People should of course also run other removal alongside this. I'm not sure how it could ever backfire. It's still going to exile something that's not yours. When you're way ahead, those cards usually aren't going to be more than an annoyance, and if you're not way ahead, there usually isn't much reason for the other players to not vote along with you. There's always also the option of just killing the other players until it's 1v1. That makes the voting a lot easier.
Yes but I think the point people were making is if you are in the lead and cast it everyone else will collude to vote for a more useless card on the board that you would not have cast removal for.
If you're in the lead, you're not looking for a removal spell. So that's a moot point.
What if you're ahead, but not enough to secure a win? There's just that 1 thing on the board that stops you from winning, like a Rule of Law, and if you can bring it out you'll play like 4 other bomb spells or someting, but you can't. Everyone is open, but it's just the one floodgate to break for the win?
If a card like Rule of Law was really bothering you that much, then maybe you aren't quite so far ahead as you originally thought in the first place.
I think a better example would be the one at the top of this page, where someone had an army of tokens, but Moat was stopping them. Another example might be when someone drops a Disk or Oblivion Stone, but can't activate it this turn, while you currently have a dominating board position. Neither of those scenarios come up enough to warrant not running it by any means, and it's still a very good removal spell, but it is important to keep in mind the limitations that it works under. Being able to read your other players well enough to know when these sorts of scenarios are likely to come up will help keep you from wasting your judgement, is all.
I think a better example would be the one at the top of this page, where someone had an army of tokens, but Moat was stopping them. Another example might be when someone drops a Disk or Oblivion Stone, but can't activate it this turn, while you currently have a dominating board position. Neither of those scenarios come up enough to warrant not running it by any means, and it's still a very good removal spell, but it is important to keep in mind the limitations that it works under. Being able to read your other players well enough to know when these sorts of scenarios are likely to come up will help keep you from wasting your judgement, is all.
Needless to say I was thinking about possible outs, and Council's Judgment popped into my mind. My initial idea would be to vote Roil Elemental so I'd reclaim my 3 creatures & prevent Roil from coming back due to Horde. The thing is, a vote in my favor would give me back those 3 mana divas, so the vote might actually end up exiling the Muse or even worse, multiple divas. I don't control them so they'd be valid choices.
In that situation I started thinking I should run a few more Wraths, but I still like the potential power of Council's Judgment. Cards that don't have such straight-forward results are interesting, especially ones whose results don't hinge on pure chaos but instead on measured aims and predictions.
I loved Council's Judgment since the first time it was explained to me. I play it in my BW life gain control deck and it will always generate the value I want from it. I haven't yet gotten a multiple target resolution yet but I have hopes. I haven't yet seen improper targets for it yet.
Example from the other night as to why this is a great card:
Down to three people in a game. I play Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and lock down an opponents key card. I also have Dark Confidant on board. He casts Judgement and votes for Tammy. Now, I know that if I pick something from the third player's board (like Krenko, Mob Boss) then he is going to pick Bob and I'm going to get Tammy and Bob exiled. So I vote for Tammy.
That type of situation is going to occur very often. Or, many people aren't going to asses the situation the way I did and Krenko, Bob and Tammy all get exiled. For 3 CMC.
Example from the other night as to why this is a great card:
Down to three people in a game. I play Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and lock down an opponents key card. I also have Dark Confidant on board. He casts Judgement and votes for Tammy. Now, I know that if I pick something from the third player's board (like Krenko, Mob Boss) then he is going to pick Bob and I'm going to get Tammy and Bob exiled. So I vote for Tammy.
That type of situation is going to occur very often. Or, many people aren't going to asses the situation the way I did and Krenko, Bob and Tammy all get exiled. For 3 CMC.
Judgment is seriously good.
One problem you can't vote for Tammy you owned it and the card reads vote for a non-land permanent YOU DON'T CONTROL.... I like the card but did not pull one yet !!!
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EDH DECKS:
GBW Ghave - BWR Kaalia - UBG Mineoplasm - URG Riku - GRW Uril - GBRProssh, I need food - BWU Oloro Lock - UGW Derevi Blink - RBU Nekusar, the Wheeler - UBRWGProgenitus - BR Lyzolda - UBGisa & Geralf Zombies - UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest +1 Counters matter - W Lin Sivvi - BWU Sydri Artifact Control - RWU Narset, the Attacker - GRW Mayael, the Cheater - RWUG Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Landfall - GBW Doran, I like Big Butts -UR Mizzix Buyback BWR Edgar and his Vamps
Example from the other night as to why this is a great card:
Down to three people in a game. I play Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and lock down an opponents key card. I also have Dark Confidant on board. He casts Judgement and votes for Tammy. Now, I know that if I pick something from the third player's board (like Krenko, Mob Boss) then he is going to pick Bob and I'm going to get Tammy and Bob exiled. So I vote for Tammy.
That type of situation is going to occur very often. Or, many people aren't going to asses the situation the way I did and Krenko, Bob and Tammy all get exiled. For 3 CMC.
Judgment is seriously good.
One problem you can't vote for Tammy you owned it and the card reads vote for a non-land permanent YOU DON'T CONTROL.... I like the card but did not pull one yet !!!
Actually, in Oracle, "you" refers to the person who cast Judgement. Therefore, bigbearlyke's vote for Tammy was valid.
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"When does a man die? When he is hit by a bullet? No! When he suffers a disease? No! When he ate a soup made out of a poisonous mushroom? No! A man dies when he is forgotten!" Currently Piloting: EDH BGGlissa, The Traitor - Recursion (Primer) WBRKaalia of The Vast URGRiku of Two Reflections WUBSydri, Galvanic Genius UBRamirez DePietro GWKrond, The Dawn-Clad GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician RGOmnath, Locus of Rage
I would definitely replace Return to Dust with it. Path is still instant creature kill. But if you have lots of "permanents" in your meta that need dealing with then replacing path is a good call.
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It can be unfair, but it likely isn't. It's never going to get you MORE ahead, unless your table was really bad at judging threats. Unlike normal removal cards this one can, and easily will, do actually nothing of consequence if you're the main threat.
:symr::symb: I hate your deck(Kaervek the Merciless)
Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Kemba, Kostume
Ka...Oh god that's not a good alliteration.Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
I've experienced enough pettiness in politics to know not to rely on my opponents' judgment, though. That's the big problem here: It has to be the best option for most opponents, and they have to put aside that time you swung for five or hit them with Wrath of God a few turns back.
On phasing:
I like your assessment.
Oblivion Ring is the closest thing to 1WW: Exile target permanent. And clearly it has limitations.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Even if you're the main threat, it still will remove problem cards because those opponents can't name your stuff anyway. Though if you're the main threat, I'd argue you don't want a removal spell, you want a Force of Will to protect your board state (so any spot removal is disheartening to see). But now we're getting into semantics at this point.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
If you're in the lead, you're not looking for a removal spell. So that's a moot point.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
What if you're ahead, but not enough to secure a win? There's just that 1 thing on the board that stops you from winning, like a Rule of Law, and if you can bring it out you'll play like 4 other bomb spells or someting, but you can't. Everyone is open, but it's just the one floodgate to break for the win?
:symr::symb: I hate your deck(Kaervek the Merciless)
Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Kemba, Kostume
Ka...Oh god that's not a good alliteration.Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
You can't really say a card isn't worth it just because it's not what you want in a corner case situation. If you're already ahead, I'm not sure why Rule of Law would be bothering you. I'm also not sure why you'd play four other bombs if you already have a solid lead. But even in that situation, it would only take convincing one other person (assuming a 3 or 4 player game) that Rule of Law needed to go because it was also preventing them from casting their own spells. And seeing as Rule of Law isn't a very well loved card, that really doesn't seem out of the realm of possibilities. So in general, Council's Judgement seems like a very good and fun card.
I'm not saying that Council's Judgement is a bad card, in fact I don't think anyone is saying that. It's a insanely powerful card. The thing I'm trying to get across is that there's times when a well placed spot removal would win you the game, while using this in the same situation can and will backfire. You can replace the Rule of Law with Silent Arbiter, Propaganda, Back to Basic, Avacyn, etc... It's amazing of a card, it's just that there's games where someone is hanging on and they're stalling until they they their silver bullet to ruin your board.
:symr::symb: I hate your deck(Kaervek the Merciless)
Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Kemba, Kostume
Ka...Oh god that's not a good alliteration.Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Ah, fair enough. I thought that was what you were implying. Honestly though I still don't think I'm quite sure what point you're making. People should of course also run other removal alongside this. I'm not sure how it could ever backfire. It's still going to exile something that's not yours. When you're way ahead, those cards usually aren't going to be more than an annoyance, and if you're not way ahead, there usually isn't much reason for the other players to not vote along with you. There's always also the option of just killing the other players until it's 1v1. That makes the voting a lot easier.
If a card like Rule of Law was really bothering you that much, then maybe you aren't quite so far ahead as you originally thought in the first place.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
So true. A buddy of mine had stolen my Seedborn Muse with a Roil Elemental. The problem was that he was playing Horde of Notions and could loop Fertilid from his graveyard every untap. To make matters worse he had stolen my Oracle of Mul Daya AND Azusa, Lost But Seeking.
Needless to say I was thinking about possible outs, and Council's Judgment popped into my mind. My initial idea would be to vote Roil Elemental so I'd reclaim my 3 creatures & prevent Roil from coming back due to Horde. The thing is, a vote in my favor would give me back those 3 mana divas, so the vote might actually end up exiling the Muse or even worse, multiple divas. I don't control them so they'd be valid choices.
In that situation I started thinking I should run a few more Wraths, but I still like the potential power of Council's Judgment. Cards that don't have such straight-forward results are interesting, especially ones whose results don't hinge on pure chaos but instead on measured aims and predictions.
Down to three people in a game. I play Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and lock down an opponents key card. I also have Dark Confidant on board. He casts Judgement and votes for Tammy. Now, I know that if I pick something from the third player's board (like Krenko, Mob Boss) then he is going to pick Bob and I'm going to get Tammy and Bob exiled. So I vote for Tammy.
That type of situation is going to occur very often. Or, many people aren't going to asses the situation the way I did and Krenko, Bob and Tammy all get exiled. For 3 CMC.
Judgment is seriously good.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
One problem you can't vote for Tammy you owned it and the card reads vote for a non-land permanent YOU DON'T CONTROL.... I like the card but did not pull one yet !!!
GBW Ghave - BWR Kaalia - UBG Mineoplasm - URG Riku - GRW Uril - GBR Prossh, I need food - BWU Oloro Lock - UGW Derevi Blink - RBU Nekusar, the Wheeler - UBRWG Progenitus - BR Lyzolda - UB Gisa & Geralf Zombies - UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest +1 Counters matter - W Lin Sivvi - BWU Sydri Artifact Control - RWU Narset, the Attacker - GRW Mayael, the Cheater - RWUG Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Landfall - GBW Doran, I like Big Butts - UR Mizzix Buyback BWR Edgar and his Vamps
Actually, in Oracle, "you" refers to the person who cast Judgement. Therefore, bigbearlyke's vote for Tammy was valid.
Currently Piloting:
EDH
BGGlissa, The Traitor - Recursion (Primer)
WBRKaalia of The Vast
URGRiku of Two Reflections
WUBSydri, Galvanic Genius
UBRamirez DePietro
GWKrond, The Dawn-Clad
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage
Modern
UG Infect
GBW Ghave - BWR Kaalia - UBG Mineoplasm - URG Riku - GRW Uril - GBR Prossh, I need food - BWU Oloro Lock - UGW Derevi Blink - RBU Nekusar, the Wheeler - UBRWG Progenitus - BR Lyzolda - UB Gisa & Geralf Zombies - UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest +1 Counters matter - W Lin Sivvi - BWU Sydri Artifact Control - RWU Narset, the Attacker - GRW Mayael, the Cheater - RWUG Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Landfall - GBW Doran, I like Big Butts - UR Mizzix Buyback BWR Edgar and his Vamps
Exactly my point. For 3 CMC he exiled a PW. Which is awesome. And that was the worst result he could have gotten in the situation.
The card is seriously good. No shock the foil version is so expensive.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Yeah, the more I play with it, the more I think it is a white staple. It really is an unfair card.
I'm thinking about replacing Return to Dust with it. Or Path to Exile. Both of which have been staples in my white decks for a long time.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB