I cracked this in one of my Conspiracy packs, and I've been mulling over how good this card really is. Of course, in duels, it pretty much reads "Exile target nonland permanent." The only issue is, in multiplayer, I feel like your choice would get overridden more often than would be worth to run this card. Anyone got an opinion or experience?
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"When does a man die? When he is hit by a bullet? No! When he suffers a disease? No! When he ate a soup made out of a poisonous mushroom? No! A man dies when he is forgotten!" Currently Piloting: EDH BGGlissa, The Traitor - Recursion (Primer) WBRKaalia of The Vast URGRiku of Two Reflections WUBSydri, Galvanic Genius UBRamirez DePietro GWKrond, The Dawn-Clad GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician RGOmnath, Locus of Rage
Just a few nights ago one of my friends had Iona equipped with Lightning Greaves (naming green) and Avacyn on the board. It was just me (Selvala), him, and a 3rd buddy (Horde of Notions) left. I was glad to topdeck Council's Judgment in that situation.
Another time during a 4-player game I chose a permanent controlled by the next player in rotation. He then chose a permanent controlled by the next player. That player then chose a permanent controlled by the 4th player. The 4th player then chose another permanent controlled by player 2 and it was a 4-for-1. Not bad.
Those are my only experiences with it so far, but I've been very pleased. Voting is fun IMO, and a 3-mana sorcery that exiles, doesn't target, and can potentially kill several permanents is good in my book.
Bypassing Hexproof/Shroud/Protection is the primary use of this, I think. It's a lot more singularly useful in legacy (coughTrue-name Nemesiscough), but it's still really great in commander for taking out threats like Uril, Archetype of Endurance, etc.
Besides you having to target a thing that only threatens you, how common would that be a case? It does say you DON"T control, and worst case is judgement hits a bad card that didn't need 3 mana to kill.
If everyone sets up the votes right it can also exile more than one permenant (one per voter). In duel match-ups though be warned as they are going to exile something you own while you exile something they own.
No, in Duels it is basically a Vindicate that trades being able to hit a land for the ability to hit things that can't be targeted, exiling, and being mono white.
All that is assuming your opponent doesn't have some other permanent that they control that would benefit them to be exiled. Then strange things could happen.
Although you could still exile multiple targets. Player A votes for target that player B owns. Player B votes for target Player C owns. Player C votes for an object player B owns that is different then the one player A votes for. All objects get exiled.
It is pretty good in multi-player. It's good for removing threats that the majority of players don't want to see stay on the board. Annoying hexproof stuff, things like Avacyn, Gisela and Purphoros, problem enchantments (Doubling Season, Grave Pact + a sacrifice-based deck) or artifacts (Swords, Mimic Vat, Darksteel Forge or planeswalkers about to hit their ultimate... any of these can be taken out. The biggest potential problem is, if you appear to be in a very strong position and are trying to hit something that is a lot more threatening to you than to others, you may find them voting for something not as advantageous to you. In that regard, it's a very political card.
It's been very strong from what I have seen, basically nuking the biggest threat on the table and occasionally more when you can manipulate the vote. Say you are player 1 and you really want something that player 4 controls gone, but you also know that players 2/3 also want that thing gone. In that scenario you can often set up a 2-for-1 by voting for something belonging to player 2. If you vote for something player 2 controls then that player will usually vote for the thing player 4 controls, player 3 then has strong incentive to also vote for the thing player 4 controls and player 4 will vote for what player 2 controls.
Long story short, don't just auto-vote for what you want to kill, think about how the vote might play out and work the angles.
I didn't notice that because of the voting system, it technically doesn't target. I think I understand why this thing is ten bucks, and I'm certainly going to try and find a spot for it in Derevi. I may pick up copies for my other white decks if I like it enough.
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"When does a man die? When he is hit by a bullet? No! When he suffers a disease? No! When he ate a soup made out of a poisonous mushroom? No! A man dies when he is forgotten!" Currently Piloting: EDH BGGlissa, The Traitor - Recursion (Primer) WBRKaalia of The Vast URGRiku of Two Reflections WUBSydri, Galvanic Genius UBRamirez DePietro GWKrond, The Dawn-Clad GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician RGOmnath, Locus of Rage
[EDH] It's built to be a casual format and to a specific vision, and if you don't like the vision, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not going to change to accommodate everyone. Big tent is not a goal.
I didn't notice that because of the voting system, it technically doesn't target. I think I understand why this thing is ten bucks, and I'm certainly going to try and find a spot for it in Derevi. I may pick up copies for my other white decks if I like it enough.
Oh wow, this can kill TNN and emrakul, eh? And can kill a Batterskull with bounce mana open, and if they choose to bounce before resolution you still get to pop something. Kind of sick.
Although you could still exile multiple targets. Player A votes for target that player B owns. Player B votes for target Player C owns. Player C votes for an object player B owns that is different then the one player A votes for. All objects get exiled.
Another potential situation (which is how it happened the one time I've seen this card) is if one player wants to avoid multiple exiles: player A votes for one of player C's permanents. Player B votes for the same thing to protect his stuff. Still works out pretty well for player A, of course. (This was with three players left; I imagine with four or more it becomes a little more interesting since two votes isn't automatically a plurality.)
The major issue with the card is that if you're currently seen as the major threat it's difficult to use as removal. Even in a three-man, B and C might agree to exile one of C's mana rocks (for instance) instead of whatever important target A wanted dealt with. So it's less reliable than a straight-up "exile target" would be. I think the possibility of getting multiple exiles when someone else is the main target makes up for it.
Generally I like the vote cards but they take a different analysis process in deciding whether they fit in a deck.
Basically you need to decide one of two things:
1. Am I okay with spending this mana to get either (or any) result?
-For Example: With Council's Judgment are you okay with the idea that some target other then the one you choose gets exiled for 3 mana? That is the worst case scenario and even then it's still good much of the time. My guess is that scenario is rare. Just as likely three cards you don't control get exiled for 3 mana.
2. Am I okay overspending for one effect on the off chance I get the other effect?
-For example Plea for Power: Generally Concentrate (essentially what the card draw vote is) isn't good enough in tuned decks. However, you might feel it's worth the risk to pay 1 less for a potential Time Warp.
I haven't truly tested most of the vote cards yet but I feel like many could fine places in low and mid power level decks and a few might even make the cut for top tier decks.
After playing with Council's Judgment and other Will of the council cards it should be noted that when the spell resolves and voting takes place no one can respond to the votes such as sacrificing the targeted creature or other shenanigans. Usually an instant or sorcery has targets while it is being cast so other players can respond before it resolves. No one usually knows for sure what will be voted on.
I've been playing it and really liking it. it can't be answered (except for counters) and exiles. Most of the time you get what you want. The problem on the table usually is a problem for everyone. I guess if they had made it at instant speed, it would have been much to strong.
It's good to see that this card is working as expected. When it was first revealed everyone was convinced you'd never get what you want exiled. At the time I went into a lengthy explanation of why the politics of this card weigh heavily in favor of getting whatever you want. (With a fair potential that it nabs something else as well)
It's just rare that someone will sit back and take a hit when they can be gaining advantage too, and since your opponents all have to vote for eachother's stuff someone is going to have a reason to vote with you.
If you're in a blatantly dominant board state it's unlikely to do as much as you'd like, but it'll still do something. You're also only in a dominant board position a fraction of the time in multiplayer.
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Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
In a 4-player game, it exiles two of the top five threats on the board more than 90% of the time, and sometimes exiles two more. The rest of the time, it's generally obvious that you shouldn't play it.
In 3 or 5 player games, it's not as great, but is still a non-targeting Vindicate.
My view is, it's like Dash Hopes or Book Burning or Infiltration Lens: Slightly worse than the worst option available, with a bonus for how you can manipulate that choice (in this case, no way). And you should expect your opponents to be vindictive and pick the Baneslayer Angel that hit them for five last turn over the It That Betrays that will steal everything.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
It's much better than those cards. In the case of something like Dash Hopes, it's the player whose spell would be countered that will normally pay the life. Provided that player has the life, they are always able to stop the counter if they want to, which makes it nearly worthless. Council's Judgment is different. There is no way that one player alone can prevent a certain permanent from being exiled. Furthermore, in a three- or four-player game, you only need one other person to agree with you in order to guarantee that your chosen target is exiled.
I agree the card is worse than 1WW exile target permanent, but that card doesn't exist. Council's Judgment is likely to be that card in the situations where you really need it to be, and is much better than that card when someone has just resolved Genesis Wave. Admittedly it does get worse when you're playing with terrible people.
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When you peer long enough through the depths, the depths peer also through you.
I like it a lot, and I'll probably play it in every white EDH deck until the end of time, but I should point out the situation in which it's not a good card: When you're winning.
I cracked this in one of my Conspiracy packs, and I've been mulling over how good this card really is. Of course, in duels, it pretty much reads "Exile target nonland permanent." The only issue is, in multiplayer, I feel like your choice would get overridden more often than would be worth to run this card. Anyone got an opinion or experience?
Currently Piloting:
EDH
BGGlissa, The Traitor - Recursion (Primer)
WBRKaalia of The Vast
URGRiku of Two Reflections
WUBSydri, Galvanic Genius
UBRamirez DePietro
GWKrond, The Dawn-Clad
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage
Modern
UG Infect
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Another time during a 4-player game I chose a permanent controlled by the next player in rotation. He then chose a permanent controlled by the next player. That player then chose a permanent controlled by the 4th player. The 4th player then chose another permanent controlled by player 2 and it was a 4-for-1. Not bad.
Those are my only experiences with it so far, but I've been very pleased. Voting is fun IMO, and a 3-mana sorcery that exiles, doesn't target, and can potentially kill several permanents is good in my book.
:symr::symb: I hate your deck(Kaervek the Merciless)
Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Kemba, Kostume
Ka...Oh god that's not a good alliteration.Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
Is my English THAT bad?
:symr::symb: I hate your deck(Kaervek the Merciless)
Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Kemba, Kostume
Ka...Oh god that's not a good alliteration.Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
All that is assuming your opponent doesn't have some other permanent that they control that would benefit them to be exiled. Then strange things could happen.
EDH
WBG Karador's Sepulcher GBW
Although you could still exile multiple targets. Player A votes for target that player B owns. Player B votes for target Player C owns. Player C votes for an object player B owns that is different then the one player A votes for. All objects get exiled.
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
Long story short, don't just auto-vote for what you want to kill, think about how the vote might play out and work the angles.
Currently Piloting:
EDH
BGGlissa, The Traitor - Recursion (Primer)
WBRKaalia of The Vast
URGRiku of Two Reflections
WUBSydri, Galvanic Genius
UBRamirez DePietro
GWKrond, The Dawn-Clad
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage
Modern
UG Infect
Oh wow, this can kill TNN and emrakul, eh? And can kill a Batterskull with bounce mana open, and if they choose to bounce before resolution you still get to pop something. Kind of sick.
The major issue with the card is that if you're currently seen as the major threat it's difficult to use as removal. Even in a three-man, B and C might agree to exile one of C's mana rocks (for instance) instead of whatever important target A wanted dealt with. So it's less reliable than a straight-up "exile target" would be. I think the possibility of getting multiple exiles when someone else is the main target makes up for it.
Basically you need to decide one of two things:
1. Am I okay with spending this mana to get either (or any) result?
-For Example: With Council's Judgment are you okay with the idea that some target other then the one you choose gets exiled for 3 mana? That is the worst case scenario and even then it's still good much of the time. My guess is that scenario is rare. Just as likely three cards you don't control get exiled for 3 mana.
2. Am I okay overspending for one effect on the off chance I get the other effect?
-For example Plea for Power: Generally Concentrate (essentially what the card draw vote is) isn't good enough in tuned decks. However, you might feel it's worth the risk to pay 1 less for a potential Time Warp.
I haven't truly tested most of the vote cards yet but I feel like many could fine places in low and mid power level decks and a few might even make the cut for top tier decks.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
It's just rare that someone will sit back and take a hit when they can be gaining advantage too, and since your opponents all have to vote for eachother's stuff someone is going to have a reason to vote with you.
If you're in a blatantly dominant board state it's unlikely to do as much as you'd like, but it'll still do something. You're also only in a dominant board position a fraction of the time in multiplayer.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
In 3 or 5 player games, it's not as great, but is still a non-targeting Vindicate.
On phasing:
I agree the card is worse than 1WW exile target permanent, but that card doesn't exist. Council's Judgment is likely to be that card in the situations where you really need it to be, and is much better than that card when someone has just resolved Genesis Wave. Admittedly it does get worse when you're playing with terrible people.
I had avenger of zendikar and a ton of ground guys, but one of the players had a moat. So I council's judgemnt voting for moat. The moat player voted for the other player's simic signet, and the third player caught on and also voted for simic signet. At that point I wished I hadn't cut mortify for council's judgment.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.