Grip's is better (by far) against Sensei's Stalling Top, but Deglamer is far better against Sol Ring (turn 2 instead of turn 3), and Sol Ring is more played and more broken.
Deglamer also gets Theros gods as a bonus and it is harder to tutor the target out of a tuck effect than it is to recur it from the yard.
I'm surprised this post didn't get more response. Mana cost is very much a factor and Grip costs 3. Honestly at 3 mana I want something more powerful than Grip (which IMO Beast Within qualifies as for example). If all I'm getting is a disenchant effect, I'd much rather play the far cheaper Nature's Claim or something I can reuse like Harmonic Sliver or the like.
yea but Krosan grip can kill top, almost uncounterable. its Naturalize, with Split second, that split second is worth 1 extra mana.
That said, I think there might be a third card worth mentioning in this "targeted green removal options" discussion: Fade into Antiquity.
Fade into Antiquity doesn't help if the indestructible is a commander, but may be stronger than Deglamer if the indestructible isn't; the sorcery speed hurts it, yes, but I believe it is worth consideration, especially in god-heavy metas.
Cheers!
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There's no right or wrong answer. You need to analyze your meta and act appropriately. If Things like Crypt and Top are prevalent, you need that split second action. If not, tuck effects are the way to go.
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yea but Krosan grip can kill top, almost uncounterable. its Naturalize, with Split second, that split second is worth 1 extra mana.
Except it's not one extra mana. Naturalize isn't the benchmark, no one plays Naturalize because there are plenty of better cards. The Benchmark for "disenchant" effects anymore is more along the lines of Nature's Claim. Deglamer then is "tuck" for one extra mana. So is Split Second worth two extra mana? Maybe it is in specific metas but normally? I don't think it is (then again I don't think a purely disenchant only effect is worth running in general. I'd rather have it attached to something else be it destroying any permanent with Beast Within or on a body with Acidic Slime, ect...).
yea but Krosan grip can kill top, almost uncounterable. its Naturalize, with Split second, that split second is worth 1 extra mana.
Except it's not one extra mana. Naturalize isn't the benchmark, no one plays Naturalize because there are plenty of better cards. The Benchmark for "disenchant" effects anymore is more along the lines of Nature's Claim. Deglamer then is "tuck" for one extra mana. So is Split Second worth two extra mana? Maybe it is in specific metas but normally? I don't think it is (then again I don't think a purely disenchant only effect is worth running in general. I'd rather have it attached to something else be it destroying any permanent with Beast Within or on a body with Acidic Slime, ect...).
This. Naturalize/Disenchant is always a very situational card to devote a slot to. Honestly we'd all rather play Abolish (0 cmc) or Devout Witness (turn any card into a Disenchant which is much more powerful than actually playing the Disenchant card itself). So does this effect get better at three cmc? No. This is because three cmc opens up the versatile removals that hit almost everything (like Maelstrom Pulse).
If you're still hung up on the "well K-Grip usually can't be countered" just play Abrupt Decay instead which REALLY can't be countered. Or use your Nature's Claim in response to them drawing a card.
Abrupt Decay doesn't hit anything but mana ramp it is really bad in EDH.
If they draw a card with top that means they found the combo piece they were looking for and it is too late.
It depends on how controlling you are. if you are combo or aggro deck then you probably want the lowest cmc possible as not to lose tempo but there is a question of power vs effiency.
Abrupt Decay is not bad in EDH, it's bad (potentially) in casual EDH. Competitive EDH has alot of CMC < 3 cards (including generals) to hit. And that aside, hitting ramp (like Sol Ring) or combo pieces (like Rings or Monolith) is what you'd be targeting with your disenchants anyway.
Abrupt Decay is not bad in EDH, it's bad (potentially) in casual EDH. Competitive EDH has alot of CMC < 3 cards (including generals) to hit. And that aside, hitting ramp (like Sol Ring) or combo pieces (like Rings or Monolith) is what you'd be targeting with your disenchants anyway.
Misconception at best. Even casual decks run rocks and stuff, which decay can hit quite well. People tend to play stuff before their giant bombs, and removing those small stuff makes it a good spell.
Abrupt Decay doesn't hit anything but mana ramp it is really bad in EDH.
If they draw a card with top that means they found the combo piece they were looking for and it is too late.
It depends on how controlling you are. if you are combo or aggro deck then you probably want the lowest cmc possible as not to lose tempo but there is a question of power vs effiency.
They won't bother to counter your attempt kill the sol ring just not important enough.
Krosan grip is the only way to kill survival before they can use it. The one time I played against it I did just that. Same for Ostone
Dark confident is suicidal what is this the all 1 drops.dec? , no one has money for those cards anyway they aren't that much stronger than the alternatives and many times the price.
arena is the only one I play against regularly it gets killed by deglamer amd krosan grip or harmonic sliver etc.
pretty much everything less than three is ramp or disposable abrupt decay doesn't kill anything that matters.
krosan grip >>> abrupt decay.
While most players in my group have gone straight from recent standard to EDH it isn't exactly battlecuiser the average cmc of my deck is under 3 but they aren't the win cons.
Krosan Grip cannot kill Survival before they can use it. They just need to retain priority and you won't get a chance to use Grip before they activate it however many times they want (limited by the number of creatures in hand and mana available).
Dark Confidant is not remotely suicidal in competitive EDH (though you play all similar cards, such as Dark Tutelage, anyway for redundancy) and money isn't a factor depending on the group/environment.
Everything else doesn't matter? The vast majority of infinite combos are made up at least partly of cards that are CMC 3 or less (The monoliths, Empower Artifact, The various sac outlets, ect...) not to mention the many generals and utility creatures who are CMC 3 or less...
The best you could say is Decay isn't good in your personal group, but in EDH in general? It's perfectly playable.
They won't bother to counter your attempt kill the sol ring just not important enough.
Really? Cause I sure would if it'd let me play something like a turn three bribery or some other backbreaking spell
Krosan grip is the only way to kill survival before they can use it. The one time I played against it I did just that. Same for Ostone
As TSRD pointed out, not really how that works... But point taken, krosan grip is better against things that activate. What we can (hopefully) all agree on though is that these are relevant things to hit with removal, which abrupt decay does.
Dark confident is suicidal what is this the all 1 drops.dec? , no one has money for those cards anyway they aren't that much stronger than the alternatives and many times the price.
Dark confident is nuts in a well built EDH deck. with 40 life and a fair number of ways to manipulate the top of your library... I just don't know what to say if you don't see why hes really good.
arena is the only one I play against regularly it gets killed by deglamer amd krosan grip or harmonic sliver etc.
pretty much everything less than three is ramp or disposable abrupt decay doesn't kill anything that matters.
krosan grip >>> abrupt decay.
While most players in my group have gone straight from recent standard to EDH it isn't exactly battlecuiser the average cmc of my deck is under 3 but they aren't the win cons.
Ramp and "disposable" things like survival and arena do matter... That should be pretty self evident since, you know, people include them in their decks for a reason. If you only care about hitting game ending threats in your meta like thrumming stone then yes, abrupt decay is probably not the card for you. If you care about interacting with your opponent before they start making game ending plays though, abrupt decay is a very versatile and powerful option. In a lot of metas you have to deal with the enabling cards or else people will have accrued enough of an advantage that you stopping plan A doesn't matter, they'll recur it and try again or win with plan B.
They won't bother to counter your attempt kill the sol ring just not important enough.
Krosan grip is the only way to kill survival before they can use it. The one time I played against it I did just that. Same for Ostone
Dark confident is suicidal what is this the all 1 drops.dec? , no one has money for those cards anyway they aren't that much stronger than the alternatives and many times the price.
arena is the only one I play against regularly it gets killed by deglamer amd krosan grip or harmonic sliver etc.
pretty much everything less than three is ramp or disposable abrupt decay doesn't kill anything that matters.
krosan grip >>> abrupt decay.
While most players in my group have gone straight from recent standard to EDH it isn't exactly battlecuiser the average cmc of my deck is under 3 but they aren't the win cons.
People don't bother to counter attempts to kill your broken fast mana? Can I come play in your group? I could use some free wins please.
Confidant is not "suicidal". I play him in Kaalia FFS, and he shines there just as he does in 5c Storm, various Modern decks, various Legacy decks such as ANT, Shardless BUG, Jund, & various Deathrite Shaman builds. Fact is, if my t2 Bob resolves and goes around the table, my win percentage just increased by 30% - all because I'm now seeing twice as many cards as you are in the same amount of time. And if something is increasing my opponent's win percentage against me that rapidly? You damn right it's a kill-on-sight card. I seriously win more games because of countless poor players mis-evaluating Bob's threat level.
As the other two said above, K-Grip only stops Survival or O-Stone if the player using them hasn't retained priority to put their triggers on the stack. If I'm playing Survival and I expect some kind of removal? You're damn right I'll stack four or so triggers - go ahead, Grip Survival now. I've still just won the game with those triggers because you chose to play a three cmc Naturalize.
Citing Harmonic Sliver is not relevant to the discussion at-hand because that is a sorcery speed answer and the cards we're discussing are instant speed.
Bottom line, you saying a Naturalize effect is stronger than a "destroy target nonland permanent" effect is inaccurate and, really, just downright wrong. And hey, look at all the cards you see even in Battlecrusiers. Chromatic Lantern, Coalition Relic, any Swords, Jitte, and other equipments not named Batterskull. It kills anything (nonland) Sun Titan can resurrect, without question, and there are plenty of ways to make sure that player can't ever get the chance to resolve their Sun Titan.
yea but Krosan grip can kill top, almost uncounterable. its Naturalize, with Split second, that split second is worth 1 extra mana.
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That said, I think there might be a third card worth mentioning in this "targeted green removal options" discussion: Fade into Antiquity.
Fade into Antiquity doesn't help if the indestructible is a commander, but may be stronger than Deglamer if the indestructible isn't; the sorcery speed hurts it, yes, but I believe it is worth consideration, especially in god-heavy metas.
Cheers!
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Except it's not one extra mana. Naturalize isn't the benchmark, no one plays Naturalize because there are plenty of better cards. The Benchmark for "disenchant" effects anymore is more along the lines of Nature's Claim. Deglamer then is "tuck" for one extra mana. So is Split Second worth two extra mana? Maybe it is in specific metas but normally? I don't think it is (then again I don't think a purely disenchant only effect is worth running in general. I'd rather have it attached to something else be it destroying any permanent with Beast Within or on a body with Acidic Slime, ect...).
This. Naturalize/Disenchant is always a very situational card to devote a slot to. Honestly we'd all rather play Abolish (0 cmc) or Devout Witness (turn any card into a Disenchant which is much more powerful than actually playing the Disenchant card itself). So does this effect get better at three cmc? No. This is because three cmc opens up the versatile removals that hit almost everything (like Maelstrom Pulse).
If you're still hung up on the "well K-Grip usually can't be countered" just play Abrupt Decay instead which REALLY can't be countered. Or use your Nature's Claim in response to them drawing a card.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
If they draw a card with top that means they found the combo piece they were looking for and it is too late.
It depends on how controlling you are. if you are combo or aggro deck then you probably want the lowest cmc possible as not to lose tempo but there is a question of power vs effiency.
I need deglamer and krosan grip because I am dealing with Sharuum decks and traumatize + keening stone... and things like that.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Never seen that card, and now I want a play set of them!
Yeah! It's some of my personal favorite enchantment removal.
Misconception at best. Even casual decks run rocks and stuff, which decay can hit quite well. People tend to play stuff before their giant bombs, and removing those small stuff makes it a good spell.
:symr::symb: I hate your deck(Kaervek the Merciless)
Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Kemba, Kostume
Ka...Oh god that's not a good alliteration.Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
I still think Back to Nature is superior. Harmonic Convergence does make a fine #2 of this effect though.
Really? So hitting their Sol Ring or Survival of the Fittest, Oblivion Stone or Phyrexian Arena isn't relevant? Getting to kill their Dark Confidant or Liliana of the Veil without giving them a response to it is bad? No. I guess it's bad if you're into "Battlecrusiers.dek" though? But who plays "SevenDropsOrHigher.dek" though?
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Krosan grip is the only way to kill survival before they can use it. The one time I played against it I did just that. Same for Ostone
Dark confident is suicidal what is this the all 1 drops.dec? , no one has money for those cards anyway they aren't that much stronger than the alternatives and many times the price.
arena is the only one I play against regularly it gets killed by deglamer amd krosan grip or harmonic sliver etc.
pretty much everything less than three is ramp or disposable abrupt decay doesn't kill anything that matters.
krosan grip >>> abrupt decay.
While most players in my group have gone straight from recent standard to EDH it isn't exactly battlecuiser the average cmc of my deck is under 3 but they aren't the win cons.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Dark Confidant is not remotely suicidal in competitive EDH (though you play all similar cards, such as Dark Tutelage, anyway for redundancy) and money isn't a factor depending on the group/environment.
Everything else doesn't matter? The vast majority of infinite combos are made up at least partly of cards that are CMC 3 or less (The monoliths, Empower Artifact, The various sac outlets, ect...) not to mention the many generals and utility creatures who are CMC 3 or less...
The best you could say is Decay isn't good in your personal group, but in EDH in general? It's perfectly playable.
Really? Cause I sure would if it'd let me play something like a turn three bribery or some other backbreaking spell
As TSRD pointed out, not really how that works... But point taken, krosan grip is better against things that activate. What we can (hopefully) all agree on though is that these are relevant things to hit with removal, which abrupt decay does.
Dark confident is nuts in a well built EDH deck. with 40 life and a fair number of ways to manipulate the top of your library... I just don't know what to say if you don't see why hes really good.
Ramp and "disposable" things like survival and arena do matter... That should be pretty self evident since, you know, people include them in their decks for a reason. If you only care about hitting game ending threats in your meta like thrumming stone then yes, abrupt decay is probably not the card for you. If you care about interacting with your opponent before they start making game ending plays though, abrupt decay is a very versatile and powerful option. In a lot of metas you have to deal with the enabling cards or else people will have accrued enough of an advantage that you stopping plan A doesn't matter, they'll recur it and try again or win with plan B.
People don't bother to counter attempts to kill your broken fast mana? Can I come play in your group? I could use some free wins please.
Confidant is not "suicidal". I play him in Kaalia FFS, and he shines there just as he does in 5c Storm, various Modern decks, various Legacy decks such as ANT, Shardless BUG, Jund, & various Deathrite Shaman builds. Fact is, if my t2 Bob resolves and goes around the table, my win percentage just increased by 30% - all because I'm now seeing twice as many cards as you are in the same amount of time. And if something is increasing my opponent's win percentage against me that rapidly? You damn right it's a kill-on-sight card. I seriously win more games because of countless poor players mis-evaluating Bob's threat level.
As the other two said above, K-Grip only stops Survival or O-Stone if the player using them hasn't retained priority to put their triggers on the stack. If I'm playing Survival and I expect some kind of removal? You're damn right I'll stack four or so triggers - go ahead, Grip Survival now. I've still just won the game with those triggers because you chose to play a three cmc Naturalize.
Citing Harmonic Sliver is not relevant to the discussion at-hand because that is a sorcery speed answer and the cards we're discussing are instant speed.
Bottom line, you saying a Naturalize effect is stronger than a "destroy target nonland permanent" effect is inaccurate and, really, just downright wrong. And hey, look at all the cards you see even in Battlecrusiers. Chromatic Lantern, Coalition Relic, any Swords, Jitte, and other equipments not named Batterskull. It kills anything (nonland) Sun Titan can resurrect, without question, and there are plenty of ways to make sure that player can't ever get the chance to resolve their Sun Titan.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.