i actually just switched out the grip for deglamer a couple of months ago, mostly because of the gods
it has definitely been an improvement so far, not once have i wished i'd had grip in my hand instead, but this is my experience just playing randos on cockatrice
OP: Since you are running a sliver deck, Deglamer is probably the better choice since you should already have Harmonic Sliver and none of the slivers can reproduce Deglamer's effect. But like others have said, split-second is a powerful effect and might be preferable over the tuck option depending on your meta. I also run Necrotic Sliver and Detention Sphere for answers and keep a Hull Breach close at hand in case I want to swap it in depending on the game.
They're both fine cards. If you need or want to run both, that's a good idea. Krosan Grip is uncountable and gets around sac shenanagins. Deglamer tucks Gods, so if there are a lot of those in your meta, it's a good choice.its just going to depend on which is more consistently useful.
I am kind of amazed at [...] the fact that somebody on this thread called Mind's Eye, Mirari's Wake, Decree of Pain, Desertion, AND Scroll Rack, all before they were officially spoiled. I will edit this post VERY shortly with the username of this user who deserves at least all of the cookies. Probably more cookies than that.
They're both fine cards. If you need or want to run both, that's a good idea. Krosan Grip is uncountable and gets around sac shenanagins. Deglamer tucks Gods, so if there are a lot of those in your meta, it's a good choice.its just going to depend on which is more consistently useful.
It's not technically uncounterable. It can still be countered by triggered abilities or Voidmage Apprentice. This situation has definitely come up in legacy if someone blind flips a 3 CMC card off their Counterbalance.
Honestly these days Deglamer and Unravel the Aether appeal to me more than Krosan Grip, but that's probably because I don't see much infinite combo. I do, however, see plenty of indestructible artifacts and enchantments.
Curious question. If you think about it, only in fringe cases do you really need either card to do more than Disenchant. They're one for one artifact/enchantment removal spells.
Unravel the AEther has the added benefit of shuffling something indestructible away. Gods, Darksteel Forge, etc. Krosan Grip is difficult to counter and can prevent an activated ability from happening. These are basically both fringe cases. Needing to deal with an indestructible artifact or enchantment, or needing your removal spell not to be counter able normally... 95%+ of the time, you won't even care. It's a fringe case in which it would actually make a difference to have one over the other or either over Nature's Claim.
The main exception to this would be graveyard decks in which Grip's ability to kill a Tormod's Crypt before it gets used is essential.
I always run Krosan Grip because I think insurance against counter magic plus the ability to stop an activated ability is more relevant than handling an indestructible target. But there is certainly a possible metagame in which that's not true.
Yeah, folks were pretty impressed - but of course I lost anyway.
In addition to dealing with indestructible, shuffle effects like Deglamer prevent graveyard recursion (Replenish, etc.), ignore regeneration, and can negate top-of-library tutors. On the other hand, they allow the owner to draw back into the target.
I think both cards are certainly playable and it is entirely a meta choice if you run one, both, or none. Me, I'm an Acidic Slime man. I'm very much looking forward to the new 2/1 elf in M15.
Grip doesn't stop the Altar at all - it is a mana ability (doing nothing but create mana).
Doh! You're right. Well so much for that. Still, works against things you don't want to go off in response like Mindslaver or Oblvion Stone.
Provided, of course, they aren't playing the artifact and then immediately cracking it. (When it resolves the active player will have priority again - if they crack the 'Slaver or O-Stone then by the time you could reply with K-Grip, the offending card will already be in the 'Yard).
Grip doesn't stop the Altar at all - it is a mana ability (doing nothing but create mana).
Doh! You're right. Well so much for that. Still, works against things you don't want to go off in response like Mindslaver or Oblvion Stone.
Provided, of course, they aren't playing the artifact and then immediately cracking it. (When it resolves the active player will have priority again - if they crack the 'Slaver or O-Stone then by the time you could reply with K-Grip, the offending card will already be in the 'Yard).
Thank you for this post. It is amazing how many people do not know/understand this.
If it's KGrip v. Deglamer/Unravel I'd have to go Deglamer (though I play both) because of all of the Gods.dec I see.
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Provided, of course, they aren't playing the artifact and then immediately cracking it. (When it resolves the active player will have priority again - if they crack the 'Slaver or O-Stone then by the time you could reply with K-Grip, the offending card will already be in the 'Yard).
Thank you for this post. It is amazing how many people do not know/understand this.
If it's KGrip v. Deglamer/Unravel I'd have to go Deglamer (though I play both) because of all of the Gods.dec I see.
So many players are of the school of thought "I have the card I wanna cast it now!" which is the same school of thought that leads to the "IcastKaaliaequipLightningGreavesandattackwithMasterofCrueltiesLolIwin" type of bad player. I make it my mission to help educate these types of players whenever I meet them (I'd consider it my duty as a Rules Advisor).
But Oath of druids sucks in edh,
Tooth and nail may be good in carebear and slow meta
Rofellos isn't very spectacular outside of monogreen and in competitive deck you'll still have to run utility lands that won't work with him
Beast Within is like grip but much worse (You only target enchantments and artifacts with it anyway because no creature is really worth a spot removal and nobody runs planeswalkers)
Krosan grip is cheap, instant, uncounterable spot removal that take care of the format's worst offenders, it could easily cost 2 more mana and still be playable due to split second, it gets through densest counterwall, hoses divining top or O-stone (which are both format staples) like no other card and is one of the few green combo stopping tricks (and the only one playable really)
Yes, I think K-Grip may aspire to the title of best mono green card easily
First of all, Split Second does not mean Uncounterable. That's been discussed multiple times in this thread. It means while it's on the stack, players cannot cast spells or activate abilities that aren't mana abilities. Notable things that get around this are Morph (doesn't use the stack), triggered abilities (such as the aforementioned Counterbalance) and Grove of the Burnwillows (in response to, say, an Extirpate targeting my Punishing Fire - it creates a trigger on top of the Extirpate which allows me to bring the targeted Punishing Fire back to my hand). That's many different ways around Split Second; it is not the end-all, be-all that you insist it is. is it good? Sure. Is it worth playing a three cmc Naturalize over other, cheaper alternatives? Not for me to say (although my own opinion is the cheaper answer is better as it's easier to hold up).
What?! Oath is terrible? Okay...it's only a card one builds an entire deck around and spawns an entire archetype about. Protip: If a card is banned in Legacy, it is most likely an offending card.
You haven't seen many Captain Sisay decks, have you? To start the argument Rofellos isn't that good - c'mon now, he had to be BANNED AS COMMANDER for cryin' out loud. It's up there with BRAIDS and ERAYO of all things. Rofellos is SO GOOD he is worth skewing your G(G/W) deck to make optimal use of.
Tooth and Nail will end way more games than a Krosan Grip ever will. And it isn't just "battlecruiser" Magic - just get to nine mana (lots of ways to do that in a format with SOL RING and MANA CRYPT legal).
Lastly since you commented on Beast Within. It isn't just for "hitting creatures" as you pointed out. It's got those coveted words "destroy target permanent". And it's an instant of all things! That means it isn't limited in scope as to what it can target. Unlike K-Grip that has only two choices. That means this one card can be a Naturalize or a Hero's Downfall or a Stone Rain all at the same time. It gets said all the time and I'm sure you've heard it before right? "Versatility is king in the Commander format."
If I run a 3cmc removal spell, it needs to hit almost every permanent type. A 2cmc one should hit more than one and be an instant. Hence, I use Deglamer and not Krosan Grip.
Honestly these days Deglamer and Unravel the Aether appeal to me more than Krosan Grip, but that's probably because I don't see much infinite combo. I do, however, see plenty of indestructible artifacts and enchantments.
[EDH] It's built to be a casual format and to a specific vision, and if you don't like the vision, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not going to change to accommodate everyone. Big tent is not a goal.
Honestly these days Deglamer and Unravel the Aether appeal to me more than Krosan Grip, but that's probably because I don't see much infinite combo. I do, however, see plenty of indestructible artifacts and enchantments.
and krosan grip is literally the strongest green card in edh lol
I don't think you've played a decent Kruphix or Athreos build yet, because those decks don't take much to get going and Athreos will steamroll you if you don't find a way to get rid of him. Kruphix is less general-centric due to the fact that UG is strong in EDH anyway.
I'd go with Deglamer honestly, I love me some Split Second, but with the Gods and the new Soul of New Phyrexia, you're probably gonna want the tuck.
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It's purely a meta choice. Both cards are powerful removal, that have advantages over the other in specific circumstances.
Do you see more indestructible artifacts and enchantments? Deglamer. Is recursion an issue? Deglamer. Do you need to destroy an artifact/enchant to disrupt the stack? Krosan Grip.
No point arguing about which is better, because it depends purely on the other cards you're using them against.
Grip's is better (by far) against Sensei's Stalling Top, but Deglamer is far better against Sol Ring (turn 2 instead of turn 3), and Sol Ring is more played and more broken.
Deglamer also gets Theros gods as a bonus and it is harder to tutor the target out of a tuck effect than it is to recur it from the yard.
I'm surprised this post didn't get more response. Mana cost is very much a factor and Grip costs 3. Honestly at 3 mana I want something more powerful than Grip (which IMO Beast Within qualifies as for example). If all I'm getting is a disenchant effect, I'd much rather play the far cheaper Nature's Claim or something I can reuse like Harmonic Sliver or the like.
I think it depends on which is more useful against your group, tuck or split second.
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it has definitely been an improvement so far, not once have i wished i'd had grip in my hand instead, but this is my experience just playing randos on cockatrice
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It's not technically uncounterable. It can still be countered by triggered abilities or Voidmage Apprentice. This situation has definitely come up in legacy if someone blind flips a 3 CMC card off their Counterbalance.
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Strongest? Really?
So K-Grip is stronger than Sylvan Library, Oath of Druids, Survival of the Fittest? Beast Within? Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary? [Debatably] Tooth and Nail?
i think you get the point.
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Unravel the AEther has the added benefit of shuffling something indestructible away. Gods, Darksteel Forge, etc. Krosan Grip is difficult to counter and can prevent an activated ability from happening. These are basically both fringe cases. Needing to deal with an indestructible artifact or enchantment, or needing your removal spell not to be counter able normally... 95%+ of the time, you won't even care. It's a fringe case in which it would actually make a difference to have one over the other or either over Nature's Claim.
The main exception to this would be graveyard decks in which Grip's ability to kill a Tormod's Crypt before it gets used is essential.
I always run Krosan Grip because I think insurance against counter magic plus the ability to stop an activated ability is more relevant than handling an indestructible target. But there is certainly a possible metagame in which that's not true.
Yeah, folks were pretty impressed - but of course I lost anyway.
In addition to dealing with indestructible, shuffle effects like Deglamer prevent graveyard recursion (Replenish, etc.), ignore regeneration, and can negate top-of-library tutors. On the other hand, they allow the owner to draw back into the target.
Also, 3drinks has a point Krosan Grip is far from the strongest green card in edh.
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Doh! You're right. Well so much for that. Still, works against things you don't want to go off in response like Mindslaver or Oblvion Stone.
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Provided, of course, they aren't playing the artifact and then immediately cracking it. (When it resolves the active player will have priority again - if they crack the 'Slaver or O-Stone then by the time you could reply with K-Grip, the offending card will already be in the 'Yard).
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Thank you for this post. It is amazing how many people do not know/understand this.
If it's KGrip v. Deglamer/Unravel I'd have to go Deglamer (though I play both) because of all of the Gods.dec I see.
So many players are of the school of thought "I have the card I wanna cast it now!" which is the same school of thought that leads to the "IcastKaaliaequipLightningGreavesandattackwithMasterofCrueltiesLolIwin" type of bad player. I make it my mission to help educate these types of players whenever I meet them (I'd consider it my duty as a Rules Advisor).
First of all, Split Second does not mean Uncounterable. That's been discussed multiple times in this thread. It means while it's on the stack, players cannot cast spells or activate abilities that aren't mana abilities. Notable things that get around this are Morph (doesn't use the stack), triggered abilities (such as the aforementioned Counterbalance) and Grove of the Burnwillows (in response to, say, an Extirpate targeting my Punishing Fire - it creates a trigger on top of the Extirpate which allows me to bring the targeted Punishing Fire back to my hand). That's many different ways around Split Second; it is not the end-all, be-all that you insist it is. is it good? Sure. Is it worth playing a three cmc Naturalize over other, cheaper alternatives? Not for me to say (although my own opinion is the cheaper answer is better as it's easier to hold up).
What?! Oath is terrible? Okay...it's only a card one builds an entire deck around and spawns an entire archetype about. Protip: If a card is banned in Legacy, it is most likely an offending card.
You haven't seen many Captain Sisay decks, have you? To start the argument Rofellos isn't that good - c'mon now, he had to be BANNED AS COMMANDER for cryin' out loud. It's up there with BRAIDS and ERAYO of all things. Rofellos is SO GOOD he is worth skewing your G(G/W) deck to make optimal use of.
Tooth and Nail will end way more games than a Krosan Grip ever will. And it isn't just "battlecruiser" Magic - just get to nine mana (lots of ways to do that in a format with SOL RING and MANA CRYPT legal).
Lastly since you commented on Beast Within. It isn't just for "hitting creatures" as you pointed out. It's got those coveted words "destroy target permanent". And it's an instant of all things! That means it isn't limited in scope as to what it can target. Unlike K-Grip that has only two choices. That means this one card can be a Naturalize or a Hero's Downfall or a Stone Rain all at the same time. It gets said all the time and I'm sure you've heard it before right? "Versatility is king in the Commander format."
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Oh this is a good one. How do you Magic? I don't even
To add to the discussion - I prefer unravel the aether in my meta. not many combos floating around, but when I can I run both
This sounds like a case of needing to RTFC. smh
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I don't think you've played a decent Kruphix or Athreos build yet, because those decks don't take much to get going and Athreos will steamroll you if you don't find a way to get rid of him. Kruphix is less general-centric due to the fact that UG is strong in EDH anyway.
I'd go with Deglamer honestly, I love me some Split Second, but with the Gods and the new Soul of New Phyrexia, you're probably gonna want the tuck.
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Do you see more indestructible artifacts and enchantments? Deglamer. Is recursion an issue? Deglamer. Do you need to destroy an artifact/enchant to disrupt the stack? Krosan Grip.
No point arguing about which is better, because it depends purely on the other cards you're using them against.
I'm surprised this post didn't get more response. Mana cost is very much a factor and Grip costs 3. Honestly at 3 mana I want something more powerful than Grip (which IMO Beast Within qualifies as for example). If all I'm getting is a disenchant effect, I'd much rather play the far cheaper Nature's Claim or something I can reuse like Harmonic Sliver or the like.
Also tidbit, Krosan grip fizzles to Krark-Clan Ironworks.
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