@Daracaex: The wiki article for Evoke says the sacrifice effect of evoke is a separate triggered ability, so you should be able to respond to it with Symbol/Graft, or similar effects. I don't peruse the comprehensive rulings enough to know if/where this is clarified, so take with a grain of salt until otherwise.
Hmmm... I notice Mulldrifter on one of those lists, and it makes me think a bit more about Evoke. Is the Evoke clause an additional triggered ability on ETB, or is it a state-based action? If it's a trigger, you could evoke it for 2U, use Unspeakable Symbol to place a counter on it, and end up with four cards and a recur-able 2/2 flyer that gets you more for 2U and 3 life.
It works (but asking a judge in the rulings section is probably best). Marchesa, the Black Rose on the battle field. Unspeakable Symbol on the battle field. Mulldrifter in hand.
Pay 2U, Cast Mulldrifter and put it on the stack for it's evoke cost.
Resolves and because the Evoke cost was paid it gains an ability: "When this permanent enters the battlefield, if its evoke cost was paid, its controller sacrifices it."
Mulldrifter enters the battlefield
The Evoke ETB clause goes on the stack.
The Draw 2 cards ETB clause goes on the stack.
With the ability still on the stack [but you can resolve the card draw first if you wish] activate Unspeakable Symbol targeting Mulldrifter, this activation goes on the stack.
Resolve the Unspeakable Symbol activation from the stack, giving Mulldrifter a +1/+1 counter.
If you haven't already, resolve the draw 2 cards ETB.
Resolve the Sacrifice ETB.
Mulldrifter dies with a +1/+1 counter, and Marchesa sees that and does her EOT ability.
Hmmm... I notice Mulldrifter on one of those lists, and it makes me think a bit more about Evoke. Is the Evoke clause an additional triggered ability on ETB, or is it a state-based action? If it's a trigger, you could evoke it for 2U, use Unspeakable Symbol to place a counter on it, and end up with four cards and a recur-able 2/2 flyer that gets you more for 2U and 3 life.
Yeah, Evoke seems pretty nice w/ Marchesa. I'm in the process of converting an old Lyzolda, the Blood Witch deck w/ strong elemental theme into Grixis to run with Marchesa. Not going as heavily elemental tribal this time, but planing to keep Ingot Chewer and Shriekmaw around. Looking forward to adding Mulldrifter and Slithermuse.
I just glanced over the thread, so I apologize if someone else has meantioned it, but Balefire Dragon seems like it might like dethrone. When there's not much to try to hit with his ability, you can build up it's power and toughness with dethrone, letting you potentially take out bigger dudes later.
I'm not sure about others, but I think it'd be a major liability in any deck. All it would take is killing Marchesa with Rakdos' trigger on the stack and all you're doing is sacrificing things for little purpose. Also, you're not guaranteed to have enough creatures, so you might end up destroying your own utility permanents or mana base. In all, I think it's too much risk for something you could do with a more controlled sac outlet. And, if you want to retain a way to make your opponents sac things, a Grave Pact or Dictate of Erebos
Breath of Fury with Marchesa, two persist creatures, Unspeakable Symbol, and a haste enabler is enough combat steps to kill the entire table. Marchesa's Dethrone ability will continuously give the persist creatures +1/+1 counters to remove the -1/-1 from Persist allowing you to focus the Unspeakable Symbol on Marchesa until she's got enough power to win via Commander Damage.
It's really convoluted and hard to pull off but it's there. Also just going down the line saccing dudes until you've run out only to see them all come back EoT would be pretty sweet.
Storm Entity comes in with as many counters as you want, but as long as Marchesa is around will constantly dodge removal and punish your opponents for daring to kill it. Use it with an Altar, and you can change how much hurt it offers.
Magmasaur is really for builds where you make Marchesa indestructible, a board wipe and damage creature that constantly comes back.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
This may have been explained somewhere in the thread, but why doesn't Cauldron of Souls work with Marchesa? As far as I can tell, it works perfectly fine with her because she doesn't exclude herself from her own effect.
This may have been explained somewhere in the thread, but why doesn't Cauldron of Souls work with Marchesa? As far as I can tell, it works perfectly fine with her because she doesn't exclude herself from her own effect.
Has anyone said that it doesn't? Searching the thread doesn't turn up any mention of it. It works, it's just a bit slow without some other support. Limited to a single use per turn cycle, and you need two turns to get back to recurring creatures if you're relying on dethrone for counters. It's a lot more solid if you're more into counter shenanigans. I'm not sure I'd want it in my list but it's a perfectly defensible choice.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
This may have been explained somewhere in the thread, but why doesn't Cauldron of Souls work with Marchesa? As far as I can tell, it works perfectly fine with her because she doesn't exclude herself from her own effect.
Has anyone said that it doesn't? Searching the thread doesn't turn up any mention of it. It works, it's just a bit slow without some other support. Limited to a single use per turn cycle, and you need two turns to get back to recurring creatures if you're relying on dethrone for counters. It's a lot more solid if you're more into counter shenanigans. I'm not sure I'd want it in my list but it's a perfectly defensible choice.
OP has a note on it saying it doesn't work with the commander in the card list.
This may have been explained somewhere in the thread, but why doesn't Cauldron of Souls work with Marchesa? As far as I can tell, it works perfectly fine with her because she doesn't exclude herself from her own effect.
Has anyone said that it doesn't? Searching the thread doesn't turn up any mention of it. It works, it's just a bit slow without some other support. Limited to a single use per turn cycle, and you need two turns to get back to recurring creatures if you're relying on dethrone for counters. It's a lot more solid if you're more into counter shenanigans. I'm not sure I'd want it in my list but it's a perfectly defensible choice.
OP has a note on it saying it doesn't work with the commander in the card list.
What he means is that, if you have both a +1+1 counter on a creature and you give it persist with Cauldron of Souls, the persist is the thing that triggers, not Marchesa's ability, since persist happens immediately and Marchesa's recursion happens at end of turn.
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUBCheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
What he means is that, if you have both a +1+1 counter on a creature and you give it persist with Cauldron of Souls, the persist is the thing that triggers, not Marchesa's ability, since persist happens immediately and Marchesa's recursion happens at end of turn.
Naw, I already knew that. Just was wondering what exactly the OP meant with that note. Still, doesn't seem like a bad idea, especially if you don't have another way to bring them back in case something happens immediately.
On another note:
Claws of Gix man. Really good and works in a pinch. I had Flayer of the Hatebound out and Trinket Mage in a game, but no sac outlet. Would had won right there if I had a claws to search out.
Eh, not a fan of Rakdos. Too color intensive and he requires us to get through. I can see him sitting in hand during the early phase quite often, and once you get to the late phase well...you should already be doing good on mana.
On the snake, seems like a worse option than the two four cmc red dudes. You'd have to jump through the same hoops as the snake with them, but they're one less and you don't wiff if they get exiled since they're etb.
The snake was just lying around, but I've got some babbons inc. (If there's one thing that can make LD fun, it's monkeys. Also being non-basic makes it seem friendlier.)
I'm going to test out my decklist today. If things go well I'll probably post it tonight.
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My Decks:
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUBCheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
Yea, if you need some land destruction, run avalanche riders with her. Also cauldron does work as a great backup to marchesa being tucked. Other than that, if your board has 0 counters, it saves most of your dudes, and then you can swing for dethrone, removing the -1/-1's so you can give persist again. It's just another angle of advantage.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
She's great, but tuck is really strong against her deck, which is why there should be a plethora of sac outlets in any build. That being said, she drops people extremely fast, and is really good in her niche.
EDIT: Also living death is absolutely insane with her. It should be added to the front page.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Flashwrither is some sweet tech i'll admit! It's actually pretty sick that you can throw a counter on it and get it back while tutoring other 4 drops to play. One thing I was overlooking, the way she is worded, she also works with animated noncreature permanents. Makes me thing march of machines, kormus bell/urborg, and other animation spells can be used to some really interesting lines of play.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Marchesa + Blasting Station + anything that ETBs with a +1/+1 counter on it = Infintite damage. All the modular creatures work, as well as the Mono-U graft creatures, any bloodlust creature, Crovax the Cursed, Pentavus, Triskelion, etc.
Marchesa + Blasting Station + anything that ETBs with a +1/+1 counter on it = Infintite damage. All the modular creatures work, as well as the Mono-U graft creatures, any bloodlust creature, Crovax the Cursed, Pentavus, Triskelion, etc.
Not quite infinite, they return at the end step, so you can do it each turn.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
I'm in the process of building a counter aggro/recursion Marchesa deck. The hardest part at this point is getting it down to 99 cards among all the good candidates.
I'm in the process of building a counter aggro/recursion Marchesa deck. The hardest part at this point is getting it down to 99 cards among all the good candidates.
Yeah, tell me about it... I'm still stuck on like 128 cards lol (including lands)
RRR - Bosh's School of Hard(cover) Knocks
It works (but asking a judge in the rulings section is probably best).
Marchesa, the Black Rose on the battle field.
Unspeakable Symbol on the battle field.
Mulldrifter in hand.
Pay 2U, Cast Mulldrifter and put it on the stack for it's evoke cost.
Resolves and because the Evoke cost was paid it gains an ability: "When this permanent enters the battlefield, if its evoke cost was paid, its controller sacrifices it."
Mulldrifter enters the battlefield
The Evoke ETB clause goes on the stack.
The Draw 2 cards ETB clause goes on the stack.
With the ability still on the stack [but you can resolve the card draw first if you wish] activate Unspeakable Symbol targeting Mulldrifter, this activation goes on the stack.
Resolve the Unspeakable Symbol activation from the stack, giving Mulldrifter a +1/+1 counter.
If you haven't already, resolve the draw 2 cards ETB.
Resolve the Sacrifice ETB.
Mulldrifter dies with a +1/+1 counter, and Marchesa sees that and does her EOT ability.
Yeah, Evoke seems pretty nice w/ Marchesa. I'm in the process of converting an old Lyzolda, the Blood Witch deck w/ strong elemental theme into Grixis to run with Marchesa. Not going as heavily elemental tribal this time, but planing to keep Ingot Chewer and Shriekmaw around. Looking forward to adding Mulldrifter and Slithermuse.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
It's really convoluted and hard to pull off but it's there. Also just going down the line saccing dudes until you've run out only to see them all come back EoT would be pretty sweet.
Storm Entity and Magmasaur
Storm Entity comes in with as many counters as you want, but as long as Marchesa is around will constantly dodge removal and punish your opponents for daring to kill it. Use it with an Altar, and you can change how much hurt it offers.
Magmasaur is really for builds where you make Marchesa indestructible, a board wipe and damage creature that constantly comes back.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Seriph0 on cockatrice
EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG
OP has a note on it saying it doesn't work with the commander in the card list.
Seriph0 on cockatrice
EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG
What he means is that, if you have both a +1+1 counter on a creature and you give it persist with Cauldron of Souls, the persist is the thing that triggers, not Marchesa's ability, since persist happens immediately and Marchesa's recursion happens at end of turn.
Two great options I haven't seen yet are Impaler Shrike and Viral Drake.
I also like Fire Snake.
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUB Cheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
Naw, I already knew that. Just was wondering what exactly the OP meant with that note. Still, doesn't seem like a bad idea, especially if you don't have another way to bring them back in case something happens immediately.
On another note:
Claws of Gix man. Really good and works in a pinch. I had Flayer of the Hatebound out and Trinket Mage in a game, but no sac outlet. Would had won right there if I had a claws to search out.
Edit:
Eh, not a fan of Rakdos. Too color intensive and he requires us to get through. I can see him sitting in hand during the early phase quite often, and once you get to the late phase well...you should already be doing good on mana.
On the snake, seems like a worse option than the two four cmc red dudes. You'd have to jump through the same hoops as the snake with them, but they're one less and you don't wiff if they get exiled since they're etb.
Seriph0 on cockatrice
EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG
I was honestly more impressed with Impaler Shrike and Viral Drake. Those seem super useful.
I'm going to test out my decklist today. If things go well I'll probably post it tonight.
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUB Cheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
I'm getting the impression she's not that powerful overall, seems like a durdle commander.
That being said I'd still like to give her a spin if only for her low(er) casting cost.
I hate to say it but grixis +1/+1 counters seems like garbage, if Marchesa gets tucked your basically playing a non-green +1/+1 counter deck...um.
If I'm mistaken in my assessments please feel free to correct me, I would enjoy hearing further on any success with this commander. Thanks.
Maybe I'm biased, but she's been pretty damn fun so far, and not too shabby.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
EDIT: Also living death is absolutely insane with her. It should be added to the front page.
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Fleshwrither can find her post tuck.
Fulminator Mage
Blind Zealot
Mindstab Thrull
Riptide Entrancer
Haunted Cadaver
Thalakos Deceiver
Dauthi Mindripper
Goblin Grenadiers
all can work to control while you nail them with infect:
Inkmoth Nexus
Necropede
Plague Myr
Blighted Agent
Ichor Rats
Phyrexian Crusader
Whispering Specter
Core Prowler
Viral Drake
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Marchesa's Smuggler and Thassa, God of the Sea make them unblockable
Shifty Doppelganger is a bad/budget/not abusable Sneak Attack
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Not quite infinite, they return at the end step, so you can do it each turn.
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Yeah, tell me about it... I'm still stuck on like 128 cards lol (including lands)