MTG Salvation

I run only a handful of targets for archaeomancer, but it has proved absolutely brutal with living end and a sac outlet. It's entirely one sided, and it would probably be outstanding with decree of pain as well.

Fleshwrither helps tutor him out as well, along with other nasty things. This is probably one of the best utility dudes in the deck.

I'll have to try out deathbringer thoctar, it seems pretty legit.

Sower of Temptation, Oona's Blackguard, and Rune-Scarred Demon have been my favorites so far.

Nothing is more fun for to me than forcing my playgroup (a bunch of control players) into top deck mode.

Quote from JWK »

I've also gotten tons of value out of Deathbringer Thoctar.

Oh, cool. I found this card in my collection the other day and thought about putting it in when I build this deck. Glad I'm not the only one!

What do people think about Champion of Stray Souls? I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but the Living Death/Living End on a stick might be more valuable than the sorceries. Especially since you can pick and choose which creatures you sac just in case you haven't gotten counters on them yet.

Too much *pew pew*, not enough *kaboom!*.

Marchesa is almost like Mikaeus, the Unhallowed with a much broader (better) color identity. Though dethrone is nice, I see it as sort of secondary to the recursion ability, as I see frequently being unable to attack the player with the highest life total (e.g., I have the highest life total, they have propaganda type enchantments, etc.) so I don't plan to rely on it, so will have other ways to put counters on things.

Undying obviously pairs nicely with Marchesa. Geralf's Messenger and Flayer of the Hatebound are shoo-ins. Combine either of those with a sac outlet and it's pretty much GG.

Like Nekusar, the Mindrazer, I see Marchesa being a popular tuck target.

The main weakness I see is Grixis has no enchantment removal except for bounce, so some decks with some problematic enchantments may be tough matchups.

Quote from Psion »

Marchesa is almost like Mikaeus, the Unhallowed with a much broader (better) color identity. Though dethrone is nice, I see it as sort of secondary to the recursion ability, as I see frequently being unable to attack the player with the highest life total (e.g., I have the highest life total, they have propaganda type enchantments, etc.) so I don't plan to rely on it, so will have other ways to put counters on things.

Undying obviously pairs nicely with Marchesa. Geralf's Messenger and Flayer of the Hatebound are shoo-ins. Combine either of those with a sac outlet and it's pretty much GG.

Like Nekusar, the Mindrazer, I see Marchesa being a popular tuck target.

The main weakness I see is Grixis has no enchantment removal except for bounce, so some decks with some problematic enchantments may be tough matchups.

The life total part just means that you can slit your wrists for insane value and not worry about it.

Grixis has little enchantment removal, but I've got steal enchantment, chaos warp, nicol bolas, planeswalker and karn liberated for them.

Just aggro down everyone, and if someone pillow-forts up really hard you can generally deal with them. Hell, I've murdered a guy who dropped humility with 17 life left. (The +1/+1 counters gave me a huge advantage. It actually allowed me to slaughter archetype of endurance, which was really useful.)

In my opinion the Dethrone is almost as good as her other abilities because it allows to to aggro people down with just a few 2/2s and 3/3s.

I do already have Nicol Bolas in my build. Not sure I would dedicate a slot to steal enchantment however; many enchantments of concern don't care who owns them (frex, Darksteel Mutation, Possibility Storm, Humility.)

Obviously there are a few options, but they are limited, so I do see it as a weakness. In my meta, some decks feature very threatening enchantments that have to be dealt with quickly. Those sorts of decks are much better dealt with by frex my Roon, Glissa, and Sydri decks which have cheap/reusable enchantment removal or sweepers.

Quote from Psion »

Marchesa is almost like Mikaeus, the Unhallowed with a much broader (better) color identity. Though dethrone is nice, I see it as sort of secondary to the recursion ability, as I see frequently being unable to attack the player with the highest life total (e.g., I have the highest life total, they have propaganda type enchantments, etc.) so I don't plan to rely on it, so will have other ways to put counters on things.

Undying obviously pairs nicely with Marchesa. Geralf's Messenger and Flayer of the Hatebound are shoo-ins. Combine either of those with a sac outlet and it's pretty much GG.

Like Nekusar, the Mindrazer, I see Marchesa being a popular tuck target.

The main weakness I see is Grixis has no enchantment removal except for bounce, so some decks with some problematic enchantments may be tough matchups.

Death Pits of Rath, Grave Pact, Dictate of Erebos, Vela the Night-Clad, Thassa, God of the Sea All say you will get to their life total. There are all sorts of great ways to get rid of enchantments in grixis, they are just not too apparent. Dystopia, Cyclonic Rift, any bounce spell, any counterspell, or even a Glen Elendra Archmage are all good answers, the last being the best for being a dude.

As far as tucking goes, have as many free sac outlets as possible.

Making her into an Infect deck; even if one of them connects, it doesn't lower their life total so they constantly get the +1/+1 bonus.

That's actually pretty awesome. There are quite a few infect creatures in grixis, and they get way better with "undying".

Quote from Daracaex »

Quote from JWK »

I've also gotten tons of value out of Deathbringer Thoctar.

Oh, cool. I found this card in my collection the other day and thought about putting it in when I build this deck. Glad I'm not the only one!

What do people think about Champion of Stray Souls? I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but the Living Death/Living End on a stick might be more valuable than the sorceries. Especially since you can pick and choose which creatures you sac just in case you haven't gotten counters on them yet.

I think it's potentially good, but didn't include him because of my mana curve. It's on my short list of things to try out, though. I don't think I'm anywhere near my final list.

ty

Quote from Psion »

Marchesa is almost like Mikaeus, the Unhallowed with a much broader (better) color identity. Though dethrone is nice, I see it as sort of secondary to the recursion ability, as I see frequently being unable to attack the player with the highest life total (e.g., I have the highest life total, they have propaganda type enchantments, etc.) so I don't plan to rely on it, so will have other ways to put counters on things.

Undying obviously pairs nicely with Marchesa. Geralf's Messenger and Flayer of the Hatebound are shoo-ins. Combine either of those with a sac outlet and it's pretty much GG.

Like Nekusar, the Mindrazer, I see Marchesa being a popular tuck target.

The main weakness I see is Grixis has no enchantment removal except for bounce, so some decks with some problematic enchantments may be tough matchups.

This is true. Recursion is 99% of the deal, just like it's 99% of the deal with Undying. It is even inherently repeatable in Marchesa's case. But leave it to the EDH community when they are given unlimited mana-less creature recursion, to try Simic beats with Evolve instead.

I do think though that the fear of enchantments is a little bit unfounded. Marchesa is probably a fairly counter-heavy build already due to the vulnerability to tuck, and for what does resolve Cyclonic Rift, Venser, Shaper Savant, Cryptic Command, and a bunch of utility Instants are available to do the job. And besides, Enchantments are mostly do-nothing cards, and can often be ignored by a deck with a plan to end the game.

On another note, Nucklavee is pretty sick if people want more durdle 6-drops.

What do people think about Killing Wave here? Seems like you won't often mind the saccing or the life loss as much as your opponents?

I thought about running it, but my list is super tight. My thought was just running another grave pact effect or jokulhaups, because it just wins on the spot.

Quote from Hallucigenia »

What do people think about Killing Wave here? Seems like you won't often mind the saccing or the life loss as much as your opponents?

Killing Wave is on my list for that very reason. The one time I've tried casting it so far, it got Swan Songed, and the other two players high-fived the guy who did that, one of them saying "that would have been game over." It's never made the cut for me in other decks.

One thing I love about Marchesa is that cards that usually wouldn't make the cut can be very good in a Marchesa deck. Like, creatures with Unleash.

I run 0 unleash dudes, 1 graft dude, mikaeus the unhallowed and flayer of the hatebound as my only undying tech. I just run the absolute best creatures i could find in grixis colors with either bomb like attacking triggers or etbs. So far it works great. Unleash and graft for the most part are just not that great, save cytoplast manipulator, which is incredible tech with marchesa(steal a dude forever for 1 blue? How about yes.).

Quote from JWK »

It's never made the cut for me in other decks... One thing I love about Marchesa is that cards that usually wouldn't make the cut can be very good in a Marchesa deck. Like, creatures with Unleash.

Yeah, ditto. I've wanted to use Killing Wave for a while as I think it's a great marriage of flavour and function, and I've long had the badass fullart promo demanding to be used. But in practice, the card's just not often that inconvenient for your opponents.

Here though... you get the life loss to keep dethroning or you get another ETB on you dudes, whatever you want. Cool stuff.

You know... all this talk of lowering your life total makes me want to try a Soul Conduit subtheme.

Should you go the soul conduit route, props on using treasonous ogre to activate it >:D

I'm just going to beat the dead horse until I'm blue in the face though, no wipe is as good as jokulhaups in this deck. Your opponents lose their board, you lose your land, but you can just kill the daylights out of them while they just hope to top deck lands and answers. Extra evil laughter can be used if solemn simulacrum and burnished heart were on your board with counters on them. Heck even activated man-lands laugh.

Killing Wave actually seems a bit silly. First, people have to have creatures for it to do anything at all except lower your own life total. Second, people who do opt to keep creatures will de-activate dethrone on themselves. Last, cards that give your opponents options are generally not very good, especially when one option is a completely cardless option in a game of resource management. It really doesn't make sense. If you want a board wipe, then run basically any board wipe. Damnation will do. And if you want to do more damage, then play a board wipe to kill blockers and attack on through next turn.

Ditto on Jokulhaups. Lots of people want Magic to be a creature-combat game, but the fact is that it's a resource management game. Combat rules are silly, and resources are scarce. Making sure you have more resources is a winning strategy in 100% of Magic formats, ever. Run Obliterate and Devastation as well. And the Giant. Apocalypse too if you have sac outlets or opponents like to block. If you get Braids, Cabal Minion or an Avalanche Riders out there with a counter on it, you're also closing any avenue for a comeback. Just elementary-level douchebaggery, 101.

Quote from Jusstice »

Killing Wave actually seems a bit silly. First, people have to have creatures for it to do anything at all except lower your own life total. Second, people who do opt to keep creatures will de-activate dethrone on themselves. Last, cards that give your opponents options are generally not very good, especially when one option is a completely cardless option in a game of resource management. It really doesn't make sense. If you want a board wipe, then run basically any board wipe. Damnation will do. And if you want to do more damage, then play a board wipe to kill blockers and attack on through next turn.

Ditto on Jokulhaups. Lots of people want Magic to be a creature-combat game, but the fact is that it's a resource management game. Combat rules are silly, and resources are scarce. Making sure you have more resources is a winning strategy in 100% of Magic formats, ever. Run Obliterate and Devastation as well. And the Giant. Apocalypse too if you have sac outlets or opponents like to block. If you get Braids, Cabal Minion or an Avalanche Riders out there with a counter on it, you're also closing any avenue for a comeback. Just elementary-level douchebaggery, 101.

Those kind of cards are both player/play group preference dependent. I think one of the nicest things about Marchesa is that she works with a lot of different play styles and strategies (regardless of how optimal you or others might deem them). She can be a mean deck, or she can be a value deck using cards in the cards that people enjoy to use. ^.^

Yeah, I think EDH is the first game in the history of ever that you have to qualify strategy discussion with statements like "dependent on having a play group who actually allows you to try to win the game".

If that is not the case, how do you go into a public forum to talk strategy? The inclusions in the deck would seem to depend entirely on preference at that point.

Quote from Jusstice »

Yeah, I think EDH is the first game in the history of ever that you have to qualify strategy discussion with statements like "dependent on having a play group who actually allows you to try to win the game".

If that is not the case, how do you go into a public forum to talk strategy? The inclusions in the deck would seem to depend entirely on preference at that point.

Well, it's not like there's an infinite number of options, really. Either you're in a meta where MLD is okay, in which case, Jok away, or you're in one where it's okay only if it more or less lets you win on the spot (same as above), or you're in one in which MLD is strongly frowned upon by the social contract (or possibly by house rule, I guess). If your meta is one of the first two, Jokulhaups or Obliterate are the best choice, obviously (preferably backed by counter-magic). If not, then a wider variety of cards become potentially quite strong.

Personally, I am much more okay with MLD than most in my meta. Occasionally someone will get their panties in a knot against something like Shivan Harvest, or Ark of Blight in Glissa, but most people agree with me that those are fair by pretty much any reasonable standard. Jokulhaups, not so much. I'm cool with that, though. I prefer to win over losing, but I'd rather have a social game of Magic in which everyone has a pretty good time then win and have people not want to play against me, and if that means no Jokulhaups, I can dig it. If winning was what it was all about for me, I'd play Standard or Modern or something like that.

And like Airithne said above, one of the neat things about Marchesa is that whatever the meta, you can play Marchesa in ways that are effective.

Jokulhaups can and will win you the game in this deck, and I find it no more busted than a tooth and nail or kicked rite of replication. Honestly i find land destruction a lot less annoying than time walk: the deck.

My main point was that her abilities are just open enough that there isn't one playstyle that works with her. You aren't obligated to run MLD, control magic, counter synergy, or any of that, and also that something like MLD is hard to be a staple card for any deck, due to how well received it is in most playgroups. It is very good with Marchesa, but not foolproof.

I won run those because usually it drags out large (6 player games) while rarely winning, and just encourages the table to kill me first every game thereafter. As a personal preference, I hate control (playing as, not against. It's dull for some reason) but I can see the synergy.