I'm planning to use them in a 3-color deck (which I still can't decide on hahaha). Might put some mana rocks to help out in storage while still providing some mana.
(Plus, I am still saving up for the good dual lands huhu)
I used to use them in a few decks. Really all they do now is eat a strip mine when they hit 3-4 counters.
People see a little mana battery happening and its too easy to just shoot it down and make that hard work count for nothing.
If you don't see many strip mines, then they are definitely worth a try. Over a few turns they can store a good amount of mana and allow for a blowout play. When the counters add up, people start to notice.
Come to think of it, it might try one or two of these again. See if I can't sneak in some extra mana under the radar.
I had them in few decks and then removed them for some other lands.
The thing is that you need to tap 1 more land to put charge counter on them. So you tap 2 mana to generate 1 charge counter.
Also, to uuse counters, you need to spend another 1 mana. So if you spend 6 mana, you have 3 counters and then you use another mana to generate 3.
In the end, you have spend 7 mana to generate 3 mana.
I think I never had more than 3 or 4 counters on them. As mentioned, or they eat some Strip Mine or some similar LD.
So in the end, I rather have shock lands or some fetch lands than these.
They're especially handy if you often find yourself with some leftover mana. It doesn't hurt to store them in these. Play a few games, then keep track of how often you end your turns with 2 untapped lands. If this is a regular occurence, then it's safe to put them in.
I wouldn't put them in 3-color-decks though. They're good in 2-color, but in 3...eh.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
The cost is tapping two lands for one charge counter, and barring shenanigans, the investment is really high...
T1: Land.
T2: Storage land, tap both for 1 counter.
T3: Land, tap two lands for 1 counter. You now have 1 mana available on turn 3 and two storage counters.
T4: Land. You now have the option of tapping two lands for two mana, and one land and one storage land for two mana. You have 4 mana on turn 4. You've spend four turns doing almost nothing else and ramping nowhere. (If you add another storage counter, you have 3 counters.)
(T5: Land. If you pop your land you tap 3 lands for 3 mana, one land and the storage land for three mana. Six mana on turn five is okay, I suppose, but remember you've done not much else so far in this game, and that one bit of ramp cost you 3 mana and 3 "mana" from tapping the storage land for the counter vs tapping the storage land for 1.)
There's also the obvious vulnerability of these lands. They make decent mana sinks, but taking four turns to start seeing returns on such a big investment that can nuked by a large variety of spells is pretty scary. If your meta is light on land destruction, maybe go for it, but get ready to see more land destruction if you continue to rely heavily on them.
UUU Talrand, Sky Summoner // (W/U)(W/U)(W/U) Grand Arbiter Augustin IV // RRR Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker // (R/G)(R/G)(R/G) Wort, the Raidmother // URG Riku of Two Reflections // RWU Ruhan of the Fomori
Quote from Mark Rosewater »
In response to your Lightning Blast, I'll eat this burrito.
Quote from slipknot72102 »
This is why I started playing magic in the first place. It wasn't PT aspirations just making noobs cry by doing things that are perfectly fair.
The cost is tapping two lands for one charge counter, and barring shenanigans, the investment is really high...
T1: Land.
T2: Storage land, tap both for 1 counter.
T3: Land, tap two lands for 1 counter. You now have 1 mana available on turn 3 and two storage counters.
T4: Land. You now have the option of tapping two lands for two mana, and one land and one storage land for two mana. You have 4 mana on turn 4. You've spend four turns doing almost nothing else and ramping nowhere. (If you add another storage counter, you have 3 counters.)
(T5: Land. If you pop your land you tap 3 lands for 3 mana, one land and the storage land for three mana. Six mana on turn five is okay, I suppose, but remember you've done not much else so far in this game, and that one bit of ramp cost you 3 mana and 3 "mana" from tapping the storage land for the counter vs tapping the storage land for 1.)
There's also the obvious vulnerability of these lands. They make decent mana sinks, but taking four turns to start seeing returns on such a big investment that can nuked by a large variety of spells is pretty scary. If your meta is light on land destruction, maybe go for it, but get ready to see more land destruction if you continue to rely heavily on them.
Edit: Phrasing.
I dunno if I'm crazy or you're missing something, but wouldn't you have five mana turn four? If you added another storage counter then played another land turn five, you'd have seven mana. When you use the counters, you don't have to tap the storage land itself. Just pay 1. The storage also taps for 1.
As for my opinion on them? I like em well enough. They're pretty low profile in my meta cause it's kinda cutthroat and if you do intend on getting mana, you have to sink some into them. People will usually save their strip mines for urborgs or cradles.
The storage lands can be perfectly decent in a reactive deck that leaves its mana open a lot, and very well might end up not using it. However, I would strongly suggest limiting their use to two color decks because it takes a lot of work to get any mana fixing out of them. In fact, I'd say I only ever end up removing counters once or twice per game.
The cost is tapping two lands for one charge counter, and barring shenanigans, the investment is really high...
T1: Land.
T2: Storage land, tap both for 1 counter.
T3: Land, tap two lands for 1 counter. You now have 1 mana available on turn 3 and two storage counters.
T4: Land. You now have the option of tapping two lands for two mana, and one land and one storage land for two mana. You have 4 mana on turn 4. You've spend four turns doing almost nothing else and ramping nowhere. (If you add another storage counter, you have 3 counters.)
(T5: Land. If you pop your land you tap 3 lands for 3 mana, one land and the storage land for three mana. Six mana on turn five is okay, I suppose, but remember you've done not much else so far in this game, and that one bit of ramp cost you 3 mana and 3 "mana" from tapping the storage land for the counter vs tapping the storage land for 1.)
There's also the obvious vulnerability of these lands. They make decent mana sinks, but taking four turns to start seeing returns on such a big investment that can nuked by a large variety of spells is pretty scary. If your meta is light on land destruction, maybe go for it, but get ready to see more land destruction if you continue to rely heavily on them.
Edit: Phrasing.
I dunno if I'm crazy or you're missing something, but wouldn't you have five mana turn four? If you added another storage counter then played another land turn five, you'd have seven mana. When you use the counters, you don't have to tap the storage land itself. Just pay 1. The storage also taps for 1.
As for my opinion on them? I like em well enough. They're pretty low profile in my meta cause it's kinda cutthroat and if you do intend on getting mana, you have to sink some into them. People will usually save their strip mines for urborgs or cradles.
You're right, I thought you had to tap the land to remove storage counters, my bad. So they're a bit better than I thought.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
UUU Talrand, Sky Summoner // (W/U)(W/U)(W/U) Grand Arbiter Augustin IV // RRR Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker // (R/G)(R/G)(R/G) Wort, the Raidmother // URG Riku of Two Reflections // RWU Ruhan of the Fomori
Quote from Mark Rosewater »
In response to your Lightning Blast, I'll eat this burrito.
Quote from slipknot72102 »
This is why I started playing magic in the first place. It wasn't PT aspirations just making noobs cry by doing things that are perfectly fair.
One important thing I haven't seen mentioned is the filtering effect that they have. A single storage land is theoretically capable of producing any amount of one of its colors, which makes it a lot easier for 3 and 5 color decks to hit strict mana requirements like Trostani, Kikki-Jikki, and the Shadowmoore avatars.
The yield per investment is still really low, though. It depends more on the structure of your deck. If you're taking a pro-active approach, then it's really unlikely that storing mana for this price will accomplish anything for you, even on those draws where it's possible. It's just unlikely that you need a huge mana output for a single turn. If you are playing more of a Control role though, especially if you have a lot of Instants, then certain mana-intensive win-conditions might be easier to get off. Say, if you want to have mana available to protect a play with a counterspell, or even be able to play a board-wipe or something with emergency mana up, these are great cards at doing that. Also the corner-case sequence of an MLD spell, plus a float is always powerful.
For 3-color decks, I would say it's perfectly fine to run the 2 that include your primary color. But for the two off-colors, having a mostly colorless land in there to store mana that's generally going to be used as colorless as well is probably kind of bad. I would rather run Temple of the False God or Ancient Tomb at that point, and you probably won't have room for both.
As bad as losing half you mana is, losing all of it is worse. Maybe I'm overvaluing them (don't own any, but I'd like to try them out), but banking mana with Coalition Relic has won me games before, and getting a similar effect on a land seems too good to pass up.
I like them in decks that don't tap out every turn. Essentially these are great in draw-go type decks in which if there isn't a spell you want to counter/ remove something/ or at the end of turn you have mana left open, you can add charge counters. Then, you might get a free Dark Ritual at the cost of virtually nothing.
I like them in decks that don't tap out every turn. Essentially these are great in draw-go type decks in which if there isn't a spell you want to counter/ remove something/ or at the end of turn you have mana left open, you can add charge counters. Then, you might get a free Dark Ritual at the cost of virtually nothing.
This. You guys are overvaluing the counters on them. If at EOT right before your untap you have two mana open, then that's two potential mana you lost. With these it's a charge counter. So after three turns and three counters you lost one to a Strip Mine. So what? That six mana is still lost regardless, but the upside is that you potentially had the stored mana for a big use, and that Strip Mine was wasted on a mana producing land rather than your Maze of Ith or Cabal Coffers, etc.
I'v played them here and there, and they are nice but not something to gush over, most games they are just colorless mana makers, other times they can save up unused mana if your playing reactionary draw go. There are also some interesting things you can do with counter doubling such as infinite mana using Gilder Bairn and a repeatable tapping source. It would be a 3 card combo but if you build a counter doubling deck then the little guy fits in anyway, a land slot is easy to find room for, the repeatable tapper can be found to fit your needs somewhat if the combo never appears. So in the right deck the burden of running this combo isn't likely to be too obtrusive, although at a minimum you'll need 8 counters on it to go infinite, so its not all that threatening either.
I would suggest that if you do use them, use them in only 2 color decks. They aren't great at color fixing.
I like them in decks that don't tap out every turn. Essentially these are great in draw-go type decks in which if there isn't a spell you want to counter/ remove something/ or at the end of turn you have mana left open, you can add charge counters. Then, you might get a free Dark Ritual at the cost of virtually nothing.
This. You guys are overvaluing the counters on them. If at EOT right before your untap you have two mana open, then that's two potential mana you lost. With these it's a charge counter. So after three turns and three counters you lost one to a Strip Mine. So what? That six mana is still lost regardless, but the upside is that you potentially had the stored mana for a big use, and that Strip Mine was wasted on a mana producing land rather than your Maze of Ith or Cabal Coffers, etc.
Basically this sums it up perfectly. I play Calciform Pools in Ephara because I rarely tap out on my turn, and I often end up with leftover mana, so being able to save up 4-5 mana over several turns lets me make a big play like a huge Entreat the Angels later on, and I haven't really lost anything if it gets destroyed since that mana would have gone to waste anyway.
I tried 5-color storage land tribal, but it didn't work out very well. 3 colors is probably easier to fix for. Urban Burgeoning is quite good with them (as is Seedborn Muse, obviously).
I don't think they work especially well unless you're going Atraxa or some other proliferate strategy. If you really want to stack the mana up then I recommend Omnath, Locus of Mana or Kruphix, God of Horizons.
If you're just running them as a side thing then I find that they're too tempting to break open to make whatever play you happen to need to make at that moment. And when you keep doing that, you realize you're better off with normal lands.
Personally I have never had any success with them. They always ate a Strip or Wasteland. My friends Horace, I have seen them have great success. Proliferate shenanigans make these much better than just tapping 2 lands every cycle.
I wouldn't use these in 3 color decks. I would play Guildgates over these.
I run them only in my 2-color decks (which are both fortunately allied-colored) and didn't (and wouldn't) consider them for my 3-colored decks.
Technically speaking, because of the natural speed of the lands, they are more of "utility lands" (mana storing) than "mana-fixing lands". Since I treat them as such, pretty much only my 2-color decks have the space luxury to put those in whereas in 3-color, your utility land slots are limited because of all the faster and more efficient mana fixing lands using plenty of slots already. In theory, being part-utility and part-fixing should have been ideal even in those limited utility slots left, but unless your deck prioritizes mass mana at one go, you'll rather use it on some utility directly (and faster) aiding your game plan.
Honourable mention to Mage-Ring Network. I've had some success with them. People don't usually deign to strip mine them, and they can provide small advantages here and there for trying to keep mana open for instants.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Mana Reflection, which can double the output when you empty the bank. That's an application where someone might strip mine it (but, more likely, destroy your Mana Reflection) (Edit: No one mentioned it because I'm wrong, except in the case of Mage-ring Network.)
I'm planning to use them in a 3-color deck (which I still can't decide on hahaha). Might put some mana rocks to help out in storage while still providing some mana.
(Plus, I am still saving up for the good dual lands huhu)
How do these cards fare in the format?
EDH DECKS
[to be updated
OTHER DECKS
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
People see a little mana battery happening and its too easy to just shoot it down and make that hard work count for nothing.
If you don't see many strip mines, then they are definitely worth a try. Over a few turns they can store a good amount of mana and allow for a blowout play. When the counters add up, people start to notice.
Come to think of it, it might try one or two of these again. See if I can't sneak in some extra mana under the radar.
The thing is that you need to tap 1 more land to put charge counter on them. So you tap 2 mana to generate 1 charge counter.
Also, to uuse counters, you need to spend another 1 mana. So if you spend 6 mana, you have 3 counters and then you use another mana to generate 3.
In the end, you have spend 7 mana to generate 3 mana.
I think I never had more than 3 or 4 counters on them. As mentioned, or they eat some Strip Mine or some similar LD.
So in the end, I rather have shock lands or some fetch lands than these.
EDH DECKS
[to be updated
OTHER DECKS
I wouldn't put them in 3-color-decks though. They're good in 2-color, but in 3...eh.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
T1: Land.
T2: Storage land, tap both for 1 counter.
T3: Land, tap two lands for 1 counter. You now have 1 mana available on turn 3 and two storage counters.
T4: Land. You now have the option of tapping two lands for two mana, and one land and one storage land for two mana. You have 4 mana on turn 4. You've spend four turns doing almost nothing else and ramping nowhere. (If you add another storage counter, you have 3 counters.)
(T5: Land. If you pop your land you tap 3 lands for 3 mana, one land and the storage land for three mana. Six mana on turn five is okay, I suppose, but remember you've done not much else so far in this game, and that one bit of ramp cost you 3 mana and 3 "mana" from tapping the storage land for the counter vs tapping the storage land for 1.)
There's also the obvious vulnerability of these lands. They make decent mana sinks, but taking four turns to start seeing returns on such a big investment that can nuked by a large variety of spells is pretty scary. If your meta is light on land destruction, maybe go for it, but get ready to see more land destruction if you continue to rely heavily on them.
Edit: Phrasing.
I dunno if I'm crazy or you're missing something, but wouldn't you have five mana turn four? If you added another storage counter then played another land turn five, you'd have seven mana. When you use the counters, you don't have to tap the storage land itself. Just pay 1. The storage also taps for 1.
As for my opinion on them? I like em well enough. They're pretty low profile in my meta cause it's kinda cutthroat and if you do intend on getting mana, you have to sink some into them. People will usually save their strip mines for urborgs or cradles.
You're right, I thought you had to tap the land to remove storage counters, my bad. So they're a bit better than I thought.
Pauper: Burn
Modern: Burn
Legacy: Burn
EDH: Marath, Will of the Wild - Ramp/Combo | Anafenza the Foremost - French | Uril, the Miststalker - Voltron | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - Goodstuff
Ghost Council of Orzhov - Tokens | Lazav, Dimir Mastermind - Control | Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Tiny Leaders
For 3-color decks, I would say it's perfectly fine to run the 2 that include your primary color. But for the two off-colors, having a mostly colorless land in there to store mana that's generally going to be used as colorless as well is probably kind of bad. I would rather run Temple of the False God or Ancient Tomb at that point, and you probably won't have room for both.
Pauper: Burn
Modern: Burn
Legacy: Burn
EDH: Marath, Will of the Wild - Ramp/Combo | Anafenza the Foremost - French | Uril, the Miststalker - Voltron | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - Goodstuff
Ghost Council of Orzhov - Tokens | Lazav, Dimir Mastermind - Control | Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Tiny Leaders
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
This. You guys are overvaluing the counters on them. If at EOT right before your untap you have two mana open, then that's two potential mana you lost. With these it's a charge counter. So after three turns and three counters you lost one to a Strip Mine. So what? That six mana is still lost regardless, but the upside is that you potentially had the stored mana for a big use, and that Strip Mine was wasted on a mana producing land rather than your Maze of Ith or Cabal Coffers, etc.
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I would suggest that if you do use them, use them in only 2 color decks. They aren't great at color fixing.
Basically this sums it up perfectly. I play Calciform Pools in Ephara because I rarely tap out on my turn, and I often end up with leftover mana, so being able to save up 4-5 mana over several turns lets me make a big play like a huge Entreat the Angels later on, and I haven't really lost anything if it gets destroyed since that mana would have gone to waste anyway.
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
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I don't think they work especially well unless you're going Atraxa or some other proliferate strategy. If you really want to stack the mana up then I recommend Omnath, Locus of Mana or Kruphix, God of Horizons.
If you're just running them as a side thing then I find that they're too tempting to break open to make whatever play you happen to need to make at that moment. And when you keep doing that, you realize you're better off with normal lands.
- Rabid Wombat
I wouldn't use these in 3 color decks. I would play Guildgates over these.
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Technically speaking, because of the natural speed of the lands, they are more of "utility lands" (mana storing) than "mana-fixing lands". Since I treat them as such, pretty much only my 2-color decks have the space luxury to put those in whereas in 3-color, your utility land slots are limited because of all the faster and more efficient mana fixing lands using plenty of slots already. In theory, being part-utility and part-fixing should have been ideal even in those limited utility slots left, but unless your deck prioritizes mass mana at one go, you'll rather use it on some utility directly (and faster) aiding your game plan.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Mana Reflection, which can double the output when you empty the bank. That's an application where someone might strip mine it (but, more likely, destroy your Mana Reflection)(Edit: No one mentioned it because I'm wrong, except in the case of Mage-ring Network.)http://www.commandercast.com/category/articles/generally-speaking
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