So one of my decks is a slowly bleeding Oloro build. Now it's not a combo variety or heavy control, it's your typical pillowfort, stuffed with effects that'll drain 1 or 2 life each turn (such as Extort). It's slow, it's not competitive, but it does what I want it to do.
However, the folks at my LGS are really annoyed by it, to the point that whenever the game starts rolling and my turn comes around, they're like "Yeah I'm not gonna keep track, you just tell me how much life I'll lose.". This is hard to do, because I have to keep up my triggers, my own lifegain, my carddraw and base my plans on whatever I draw from my lifegain. Even with everything I need to do in one of Oloro's turns, I'm still one of the faster (if not THE fastest) players in our group, but evidently, keeping track of life (while I carefully announce EVERY lifeloss trigger) is too much for them. Is it too much to ask to either jot down a few numbers of lifeloss, turn your D20 a few times or slide away a few of the pebbles you use for your life? Or are they in the right and should I just keep track of their lifeloss the entire turn as well, on top of everything I already have to do during my turn?
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
My friend plays an Oloro deck that bleeds and I get annoyed having to turn my dice every 5 seconds for one life. So I just ask him to tally it all up. Makes it easier for me lol. But I play in 3 man pods so it's a bit easier for him
If they want the total life lost, then tell them the total.
Sometimes it can be hard to follow someones actions if they do not make it clear.
For example: if you say everyone lose 1 life twice in a row, are you just repeating it or is it additional?
Also, changing lifetotal 5 times on your upkeep every turn can be obnoxious. I would rather do it once.
This. If someone was making me lose multiple life every turn, I'd start paying attention. It's really not that much harder to move your dice 5 times in one turn than it is to move it once. Especially if they have spindown dice.
If you have a smartphone or an ipod you can download one of those apps that track life totals. Mine has ten different spots that track totals, and the option to add names to them to remember who is who. So if they don't want to keep track of their own life, you could just do it for them through that.
But that would be a lot of work for me, and i would say "alright, but if i mess up and you lose too much life, or i gain too much life, it isn't my fault." I obviously wouldn't actually cheat, but i would make the threats to, and probably do it by accident when i lose count.
Really, i'm finicky about my life, and i like to keep a good hold on it. Even if i'm at 46 and my opponent is at 4, and i've got a solid hold on the board state, i'll still be sure to tick down the two life i lose off of signing in blood. Even if i plan to swing for the kill that turn. Because that's the way that the game works.
Player should always be responsible for their own life, so if you call out the triggers as they happen like the way the game dictates you should, they shouldn't have a problem paying attention to the game and following it.
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Whats the big deal about black lotus you ask? Well you see, there is no big deal about it. It IS the big deal.
This reminds me of Soldier of Fortune. It's not a lot to ask players to shuffle their library, and yet people get upset when you make them do it excessively. The issue here isn't so much that they are lazy, it is that there are an excessive number of triggers and it goes beyond normal game play and into an annoyance. Purphoros, Rhystic Study, and numerous other cards are the same way. You can make arguments for each position, but the way I see it, if it annoys you to track their life totals, that's probably how they feel.
Tracking their own lifetotal is their responsibility. You probably should be announcing your own triggers as often as you can but I understand it sometimes being easier for opponents to remember some of them like some of the ones where opponents trigger something every turn I sort of expect them to remember to take the trigger.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
You certainly need to announce your triggers each turn, and inform them how much they are losing, but at that point, like many have said, it is up to them to keep track of their life totals.
This drives me crazy. People pine for more interactive games and then complain when things get too interactive. It can feel a little grindy perhaps, but it's part of the game. I'd find new people to play with or sit down and talk to them about it, because it should be fun for everyone, and clearly they aren't having fun playing with you, and you aren't with them.
Jeez and I thought I was lazy because I sometimes don't want to go through the physical motion of every single MoM trigger. Not wanting to keep track of their life totals? That's just silly.
This reminds me of Soldier of Fortune. It's not a lot to ask players to shuffle their library, and yet people get upset when you make them do it excessively. The issue here isn't so much that they are lazy, it is that there are an excessive number of triggers and it goes beyond normal game play and into an annoyance. Purphoros, Rhystic Study, and numerous other cards are the same way. You can make arguments for each position, but the way I see it, if it annoys you to track their life totals, that's probably how they feel.
This I need to point out, why should I in my turn keep track of not only my various triggers (Which are a LOT of possible triggers given the deck I build), my own lifegain, the cards I draw, tapping my mana correctly, keeping watch for counterspells AND then also keep track of THEIR life? Literally all they have to do (Unless they might want to counter something of mine) is keep track of their life during my turn. I do all the work, I announce all my triggers, I play carefully but pacey as to not make mistakes while keeping the game flowing, and I"m just met with "Yeah I'm not gonna keep track of that, just tell me how much I lose."
In the case of Purphoros, which I also happen to pilot, it's a lot easier. "You lose 10 life from 5 critters entering the battlefield. Turn.". Purphoros kills within 3/4 turns of entering the field. That deck is hated in my group for being hard to interact with. Oloro, on the other hand, is easy to interact with, doesn't generally kill you just like that, it just requires you to pay attention during my turn. Now if I were to not announce the triggers, sure, then you're in your right to call me out on it. But that's why I make it a point to be careful about it.
As to the App idea, yeah I'm afraid I don't have the cash to spend on stuff like that, saving up to buy a house will do that to you.
No, they're not playing on a 3DS during their turn. At worst they might be talking about some trades, but usually most of the attention is with the game and the players in the game. Which is why I'm even more baffled as to their laziness.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Now, I can be a bit of an ass sometimes, but in that position I would seriously consider going with it for a couple turns, and then just telling them something so flagrantly wrong, they'll want to start tracking their own lifeloss.
It's their responsability to track their life loss, but if they steadfastly refuse to do so, maybe that deck is wrong for that playgroup. Is there any chance they might be trying to communicate to you that they just don't like the deck? That would probably be one of the worst ways to go about doing it, but maybe they're thinking that style of deck is outside of the scope of what they consider acceptable?
"I'm going to sack a goblin to do 1 point to x. I'm going to sack a goblin to do another point to x. I'm going to sack a goblin to do another point to x. I'm going to sack a goblin to do a point to y. I'm going to sack a goblin to do a point to player a." Etc...
Dragging out his already excruciatingly long terms even longer. Sometimes it might make sense to do every trigger or activation because of potential responses but when it's obvious there are no responses just short cut it all out and announce: "I'm sacking x goblins to kill creatures y and Z and do (damage) to players a and b"
Long story short: if you aren't dragging it out unnecessarily then it's them being lazy. If you do the crap my brother sometimes does then you need to short cut it a little bit.
Now, I can be a bit of an ass sometimes, but in that position I would seriously consider going with it for a couple turns, and then just telling them something so flagrantly wrong, they'll want to start tracking their own lifeloss.
It's their responsability to track their life loss, but if they steadfastly refuse to do so, maybe that deck is wrong for that playgroup. Is there any chance they might be trying to communicate to you that they just don't like the deck? That would probably be one of the worst ways to go about doing it, but maybe they're thinking that style of deck is outside of the scope of what they consider acceptable?
I'm considering doing the same. "Yeah you took 10. You didn't keep track?". As for being wrong for my playgroup...I'm starting to wonder what I CAN bring. Zegana is met with groans because it's too good. Oloro is met with groans because bookkeeping. Purphoros is met with groans because it's hard to interact with. Galina is hated because "It doesn't let us play our commanders". Only Stonebrow seems relatively safe for now. If only there were other playgroups playing in this LGS (I really love the store, so I can't just leave it.)
"I'm going to sack a goblin to do 1 point to x. I'm going to sack a goblin to do another point to x. I'm going to sack a goblin to do another point to x. I'm going to sack a goblin to do a point to y. I'm going to sack a goblin to do a point to player a." Etc...
Dragging out his already excruciatingly long terms even longer. Sometimes it might make sense to do every trigger or activation because of potential responses but when it's obvious there are no responses just short cut it all out and announce: "I'm sacking x goblins to kill creatures y and Z and do (damage) to players a and b"
Long story short: if you aren't dragging it out unnecessarily then it's them being lazy. If you do the crap my brother sometimes does then you need to short cut it a little bit.
Oh I agree on the shortcutting, which I do when it's possible. "Yeah I'm gonna extort, get the trigger from Oloro and do that all at once", that kind of stuff. The problem rises when I have to pay mana for each action, and any counterspell can screw it up, OR when my lifedrain also causes a carddraw which alters my gameplan. Usually, each lifeloss trigger coming from me is due to a spell being cast, rather than something like "Pay 10 to get effect X 10 times, drain 10".
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I like the suggestion of taking "ten" life, making them spit out their Mountain Dew in shock, and then telling them to pay attention. Anyway, some people in stores can act whiney and often do because there are few negative consequences to deter that kind of behavior. They can't do that in real life or they get fired, broken up with, or beat down on the street. And the lack of negative consequences just reinforces that whiney (and I would argue incorrect, rude, and toxic) behavior. Part of the reason I don't play in stores anymore. It only takes one jerk in a store to waste my limited time being a whiney pain. So yeah, they SHOULD track their own dang life. Sounds like they are a bad crowd to be stuck with. Sorry to hear that.
As long as you don't play that deck every game. That would get annoying, but I would still track my own life in any case...heh.
Yea, kinda fun to see a thread about a deck I retired about 2 years ago pop back up again. Gotta love it when that happens.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Maybe LouCypher used some other decks in the meanwhile, since he opened the thread 3 years ago.
But thanks to richard_trollope for suggesting Excel or other software to keep track of the life total. I would probably settle with pen and paper...
Pen and paper (or tablet, in my case) is the reason I would want more lumped numbers. Rolling a spindown around is quick. Marking 8 1-point increment life changes in a turn runs me out of space really quickly. I know from experience, because I really like grindy BWx decks with incremental life changes. It does get to be a pain.
Yea, kinda fun to see a thread about a deck I retired about 2 years ago pop back up again. Gotta love it when that happens.
It's always kind of interesting to see the old threads pop up and see how opinions have changed, especially when it's not just asking for deck feedback or the like.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
However, the folks at my LGS are really annoyed by it, to the point that whenever the game starts rolling and my turn comes around, they're like "Yeah I'm not gonna keep track, you just tell me how much life I'll lose.". This is hard to do, because I have to keep up my triggers, my own lifegain, my carddraw and base my plans on whatever I draw from my lifegain. Even with everything I need to do in one of Oloro's turns, I'm still one of the faster (if not THE fastest) players in our group, but evidently, keeping track of life (while I carefully announce EVERY lifeloss trigger) is too much for them. Is it too much to ask to either jot down a few numbers of lifeloss, turn your D20 a few times or slide away a few of the pebbles you use for your life? Or are they in the right and should I just keep track of their lifeloss the entire turn as well, on top of everything I already have to do during my turn?
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Sometimes it can be hard to follow someones actions if they do not make it clear.
For example: if you say everyone lose 1 life twice in a row, are you just repeating it or is it additional?
Also, changing lifetotal 5 times on your upkeep every turn can be obnoxious. I would rather do it once.
This. If someone was making me lose multiple life every turn, I'd start paying attention. It's really not that much harder to move your dice 5 times in one turn than it is to move it once. Especially if they have spindown dice.
But that would be a lot of work for me, and i would say "alright, but if i mess up and you lose too much life, or i gain too much life, it isn't my fault." I obviously wouldn't actually cheat, but i would make the threats to, and probably do it by accident when i lose count.
Really, i'm finicky about my life, and i like to keep a good hold on it. Even if i'm at 46 and my opponent is at 4, and i've got a solid hold on the board state, i'll still be sure to tick down the two life i lose off of signing in blood. Even if i plan to swing for the kill that turn. Because that's the way that the game works.
Player should always be responsible for their own life, so if you call out the triggers as they happen like the way the game dictates you should, they shouldn't have a problem paying attention to the game and following it.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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[Modern] Allies
This drives me crazy. People pine for more interactive games and then complain when things get too interactive. It can feel a little grindy perhaps, but it's part of the game. I'd find new people to play with or sit down and talk to them about it, because it should be fun for everyone, and clearly they aren't having fun playing with you, and you aren't with them.
EDH
UAzami, Locus of All KnowledgeU
BMarrow-Gnawer, Crime Lord of ComboB
WBRTariel, Hellraiser StaxWBR
Annul is really good in EDH
This I need to point out, why should I in my turn keep track of not only my various triggers (Which are a LOT of possible triggers given the deck I build), my own lifegain, the cards I draw, tapping my mana correctly, keeping watch for counterspells AND then also keep track of THEIR life? Literally all they have to do (Unless they might want to counter something of mine) is keep track of their life during my turn. I do all the work, I announce all my triggers, I play carefully but pacey as to not make mistakes while keeping the game flowing, and I"m just met with "Yeah I'm not gonna keep track of that, just tell me how much I lose."
In the case of Purphoros, which I also happen to pilot, it's a lot easier. "You lose 10 life from 5 critters entering the battlefield. Turn.". Purphoros kills within 3/4 turns of entering the field. That deck is hated in my group for being hard to interact with. Oloro, on the other hand, is easy to interact with, doesn't generally kill you just like that, it just requires you to pay attention during my turn. Now if I were to not announce the triggers, sure, then you're in your right to call me out on it. But that's why I make it a point to be careful about it.
As to the App idea, yeah I'm afraid I don't have the cash to spend on stuff like that, saving up to buy a house will do that to you.
No, they're not playing on a 3DS during their turn. At worst they might be talking about some trades, but usually most of the attention is with the game and the players in the game. Which is why I'm even more baffled as to their laziness.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
It's their responsability to track their life loss, but if they steadfastly refuse to do so, maybe that deck is wrong for that playgroup. Is there any chance they might be trying to communicate to you that they just don't like the deck? That would probably be one of the worst ways to go about doing it, but maybe they're thinking that style of deck is outside of the scope of what they consider acceptable?
"I'm going to sack a goblin to do 1 point to x. I'm going to sack a goblin to do another point to x. I'm going to sack a goblin to do another point to x. I'm going to sack a goblin to do a point to y. I'm going to sack a goblin to do a point to player a." Etc...
Dragging out his already excruciatingly long terms even longer. Sometimes it might make sense to do every trigger or activation because of potential responses but when it's obvious there are no responses just short cut it all out and announce: "I'm sacking x goblins to kill creatures y and Z and do (damage) to players a and b"
Long story short: if you aren't dragging it out unnecessarily then it's them being lazy. If you do the crap my brother sometimes does then you need to short cut it a little bit.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
I'm considering doing the same. "Yeah you took 10. You didn't keep track?". As for being wrong for my playgroup...I'm starting to wonder what I CAN bring. Zegana is met with groans because it's too good. Oloro is met with groans because bookkeeping. Purphoros is met with groans because it's hard to interact with. Galina is hated because "It doesn't let us play our commanders". Only Stonebrow seems relatively safe for now. If only there were other playgroups playing in this LGS (I really love the store, so I can't just leave it.)
Oh I agree on the shortcutting, which I do when it's possible. "Yeah I'm gonna extort, get the trigger from Oloro and do that all at once", that kind of stuff. The problem rises when I have to pay mana for each action, and any counterspell can screw it up, OR when my lifedrain also causes a carddraw which alters my gameplan. Usually, each lifeloss trigger coming from me is due to a spell being cast, rather than something like "Pay 10 to get effect X 10 times, drain 10".
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
As long as you don't play that deck every game. That would get annoying, but I would still track my own life in any case...heh.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
It's always kind of interesting to see the old threads pop up and see how opinions have changed, especially when it's not just asking for deck feedback or the like.
you're a mod, lock the thread. This thread is almost 3 years old.
seems like a mod is being bias to a necro since the thread is his own.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist