Spine of Ish Sah. What do you feel about this card? I know it's good removal in B/R for enchantments (and in black's case, artifacts), but do you find it worth running alone? Do you include sac outlets or something along with it for it to be good, or do you find it good also in vacuum with no other cards?
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Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
I have used it, but mostly only out of necessity in a mono-red deck. Don't really like it, but if you're playing mono-red, your options are limited if you want to pack enchantment removal.
I would only really run it if Karn Liberated is out of the picture or if you are already running him and need more. The fact that he exiles is just so much stronger than a simple destroy.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I used to run Bosh, Iron Golem, and I liked it in that deck since bosh is a sacrifice outlet for it that turns it into additional removal.
You do have to take into account that it costs about a billion mana, so you almost need to either ramp it out, or cheat it into play somehow to get any real value out of it (Goblin Welder shenanigans?).
Meh. Basically it's good if you can find some way to make it cheap. The repetition is worth something, so perhaps if you can find some way to do a recursion loop of some sort. It's playable in colorless decks, and maybe even in monocolored decks to cover some removal-related weakness. (And even then...)
When Prime Time was in EDH, I could imagine using it with posts or tron.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I run it in my Thrax list to recycle with Trading Post, but I've begun to reconsider it lately. I have had good success with it over long games - being able to sac it to claws of gix and recast it after SwoFF connects - but overall it's an expensive way to handle enchantments.
[EDH] It's built to be a casual format and to a specific vision, and if you don't like the vision, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not going to change to accommodate everyone. Big tent is not a goal.
i love this card in my sydri deck. not only is it a 7/7 beater, but it kills anything and when my opponents finally kill it, it just comes back to beat their face in again. as others have mentioned, the card gets good fast if you have a way to sacrifice it and reuse it a few times.
however, in a vacuum i would only use this card in a deck that has trouble killing certain kinds of permanents.
It also works extremely well with Thopter Foundry and Grand Architect, which gives you a sac outlet to keep recasting it, and blue creatures to use to recast it.
Recent discussions here and elsewhere have made it clear that there seems to be a group of players who consider blue and control synonymous, as if they somehow started playing a game with four identical and "bad" colors that do nothing interesting because they just "turn men sideways" and then true, glorious blue, the only thinking person's color.
EDH decks
Marath, Will of the Wild
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer
Marchesa, the Black Rose
It's has it's uses, I run it with Master Transmuter and Duplicant in my hanna deck and just cycle the two cards with the transmuter. I also have a Transmute Artifact in the deck which allows me to drop it into play killing a target then immediately put it back into hand for the cost of 2 blue and an artifact that I'm going to get back. 7 mana can be steep for some decks to swallow though, so I see why some people aren't fans.
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No one spoke. There was no need. The threat of the Eldrazi presented a simple choice: lay down your arms and die for nothing, or hold them fast and die for something.
I also have a Transmute Artifact in the deck which allows me to drop it into play killing a target then immediately put it back into hand for the cost of 2 blue and an artifact that I'm going to get back.
This doesn't work. Check out the oracle text on Transmute. If whatever you tutored for costs more than what you sacrificed and you don't pay the difference, it goes straight to the yard without passing through play. What you're describing just dumps Spine into the yard, so it's more or less a pricey, off-color Entomb.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
I used to play Spine in a monoblack stax deck that could sac it with Trading Post. I even used Gate to Phyrexia to kill my own Spine by saccing a token.
My normal procedure for EDH is to look at what a card does instead of how much it costs, because you're usually going to get enough mana to cast big spells anyway. However, Spine is indeed very pricy for what it does and looping it gets expensive quick.
coming from the monoblack view, I'd much rather have Karn, All is Dust, Oblivion Stone, or a Tutor for one of those cards over Spine. Assuming I already included all of the above, I'd still rather have Gloom or Deathgrip over Spine; since those cards come online earlier and are a proactive way to stopping a white or green player from gaining the critical mass they need to win. When Spine is my 7th or 8th option for a card slot, I can't see it making it's way into any of my future decks.
Priest of Yawgmoth with any untap effects makes the Spine terrifying.
It's also great in Sydri with Arcum Dagsson - turn it into a creature, sac it with Arcum, bounce it and get another artifact for free.
It's not the most cost-efficient card but it gets the job done and gives colors like Red and Black answers to permanents they normally have problems with. Plus the card itself is relatively cheap financially.
If you're deck has acceleration in the form of cards like Thran Dynamo, Gilded Lotus and the like, 7 mana isn't really that expensive. Sac outlets definitely make it better.
If you're playing a color (or colors) which have limited access to removal or something, the Spine is worth a look.
My Sydri deck enjoys it. Played it, animated it, sent it in with lifelink and deathtouch. Or just animate it and let Conjuror's Closet exile and return it each turn. Frankly theres tons of value to get from it if you can animate it though. Just another Dead-Eye Navigator target at that point.
Priest of Yawgmoth with any untap effects makes the Spine terrifying.
It's also great in Sydri with Arcum Dagsson - turn it into a creature, sac it with Arcum, bounce it and get another artifact for free.
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Why do people keep giving me reasons to want to build What's-His-Name, the Gold-Cursed. That would slot perfectly into that deck.
It's an important card for monocolored and certain artifact centered decks. It's in my Erebos list, which unfortunately still hasn't seen the light of day, and if I ever get around to Glissa, I'm sure it would be in there as a removal/card advantage engine. It's certainly not an auto include, I don't know if I'd even call it a staple, but it fills an important niche. At worst it's a poor man's Karn.
Artifact sweepers can substitute for sac outlets if they're in your colors.
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You do have to take into account that it costs about a billion mana, so you almost need to either ramp it out, or cheat it into play somehow to get any real value out of it (Goblin Welder shenanigans?).
When Prime Time was in EDH, I could imagine using it with posts or tron.
On phasing:
however, in a vacuum i would only use this card in a deck that has trouble killing certain kinds of permanents.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
http://stat.rumandmonkey.com/tests/1/6/5261/20801.jpg
EDH decks
Marath, Will of the Wild
Sygg, River Cutthroat
Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer
Marchesa, the Black Rose
I am keeping hold of it for future attempts at building a mono red EDH deck.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
BUGThe MimeoplasmBUG
WUIsperia, Supreme JudgeWU
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
Thraximundar Control voltron
Darien, King of Dudes The swarm
Karador, Ghost ChieftainJunk graveyard
Erebos, God of the DeadMy BIG BLACK.......deck
Zedruu the kindhearted My take on Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Roon of the Hidden Realm Bounce house
This doesn't work. Check out the oracle text on Transmute. If whatever you tutored for costs more than what you sacrificed and you don't pay the difference, it goes straight to the yard without passing through play. What you're describing just dumps Spine into the yard, so it's more or less a pricey, off-color Entomb.
My normal procedure for EDH is to look at what a card does instead of how much it costs, because you're usually going to get enough mana to cast big spells anyway. However, Spine is indeed very pricy for what it does and looping it gets expensive quick.
coming from the monoblack view, I'd much rather have Karn, All is Dust, Oblivion Stone, or a Tutor for one of those cards over Spine. Assuming I already included all of the above, I'd still rather have Gloom or Deathgrip over Spine; since those cards come online earlier and are a proactive way to stopping a white or green player from gaining the critical mass they need to win. When Spine is my 7th or 8th option for a card slot, I can't see it making it's way into any of my future decks.
It's also great in Sydri with Arcum Dagsson - turn it into a creature, sac it with Arcum, bounce it and get another artifact for free.
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
If you're deck has acceleration in the form of cards like Thran Dynamo, Gilded Lotus and the like, 7 mana isn't really that expensive. Sac outlets definitely make it better.
If you're playing a color (or colors) which have limited access to removal or something, the Spine is worth a look.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
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Why do people keep giving me reasons to want to build What's-His-Name, the Gold-Cursed. That would slot perfectly into that deck.
Artifact sweepers can substitute for sac outlets if they're in your colors.
Pauper: Burn
Modern: Burn
Legacy: Burn
EDH: Marath, Will of the Wild - Ramp/Combo | Anafenza the Foremost - French | Uril, the Miststalker - Voltron | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - Goodstuff
Ghost Council of Orzhov - Tokens | Lazav, Dimir Mastermind - Control | Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Tiny Leaders