Has anyone ever played against a Kaalia deck where the first thing they did WASN'T "Ok, Swing with Kaalia, put Avacyn into play"? That is how every single game I've ever played against that commander goes, and it's annoying as hell because with there only being 1 of it in the deck, you'd think maybe just one game it wouldn't get windmill slammed into play. It irritates me so much that I stop caring who wins as long as the Kaalia player doesn't.
Has anyone ever played against a Kaalia deck where the first thing they did WASN'T "Ok, Swing with Kaalia, put Avacyn into play"? That is how every single game I've ever played against that commander goes, and it's annoying as hell because with there only being 1 of it in the deck, you'd think maybe just one game it wouldn't get windmill slammed into play. It irritates me so much that I stop caring who wins as long as the Kaalia player doesn't.
/rant
You clearly haven't played against enough blue-based combo/control decks.
Yup. My one friend loves Kaalia into Rakdos 1.0. Or Kaalia into Rune-Scarred Demon to get Rakdos. Really annoying every game, but he started getting bored of it as well.
All I can say is pack more sport removal to keep Kaalia off the board. For some reason, all tbe Kaalia decks I've played never have the mana to actually hardcast all their Demons, Dragons, and Angels.
Has anyone ever played against a Kaalia deck where the first thing they did WASN'T "Ok, Swing with Kaalia, put Avacyn into play"? That is how every single game I've ever played against that commander goes, and it's annoying as hell because with there only being 1 of it in the deck, you'd think maybe just one game it wouldn't get windmill slammed into play. It irritates me so much that I stop caring who wins as long as the Kaalia player doesn't.
/rant
You clearly haven't played against enough blue-based combo/control decks.
I play Azami, Nicol Bolas, and Oloro (and lend these out to people to play with), and all three of those decks have combo kills (Oloro has 3 different combos!) It's not that I have a problem with decks doing unfair things; it's just tiring to see the same exact play every single time I play against Kaalia. Every. Single. Game.
I build all of my decks such that they can grind out victory without doing anything too unfair but it's like that deck can barely do anything at all if it's not cheating out super uncastable uncounterable fatties, and if you keep targeting the Kaalia player, it feels like half the time they start to take it personally that they can't play anything and "have fun".
If a person is playing something degenerate or more overpowered than the rest of the group, then they don't really have room to complain about things being "unfun" if they're constantly the target. Explain that the reason the player is targeted so much is because it's genuinely not fun to play against their deck. Tell the player that if they removed Avacyn/considered a different route to victory you'd both have more fun because he'd be targeted less and you'd not have to deal with the unfun to play against deck. It's a social game, be social and talk about stuff, yo.
I am generally more frustrated with Kaalia into Iona. I actually have started to have somewhat of a philosophy of a hair-trigger judge call against Kaalia decks to ensure they aren't cheating with their opening hand. Also:
I play Kaalia and its not common that Avacyn even makes an appearance, never mind first swing. I've probably seen Gisela more often, even Lord of the Void has made people more unhappy than Avacyn in my games. Last time I put out Avacyn she was stolen. I had to use my own Path to Exile on her. So, I feel no sympathy. Blame the player, not the cards.
There are enough really powerful A/D/D that your Kaalia player will pull one in his starting 7. He can't have avacyn every game though, so either cut his deck or use hyperbole less in your posts.
Rakdos 1.0, Master of Cruelties, Avacyn, Iona, sire of insanity... A lot of creatures can end the game unanswered. You just have to answer them.
I find Lord of the Void to be more of an irritation than Avacyn. In most cases, at the early stages of the game, Avacyn's only an 8-damage beater. The Lord eats the top 7% of your library and takes a creature. That's tempo.
When Avacyn first came out, a lot of my friends were putting her in angel decks and reanimation decks. Now, hardly anyone plays her anymore. She's really not that hard to get rid of. There's plenty of exile spells and cards that throw negative counters out. There's plenty of ways to steal her, too. One of my friends has a Kaalia Commander deck and I don't even know if he's got Avacyn in there. I've never seen him use her. I did see him hit someone with a Master of Cruelties, though. That was pretty brutal. He does have Iona in there, too. Still, it's not like Kaalia herself is hard to get rid of. Just kill her every time she hits the board. She's just a 2/2 with no protection of any kind.
Kaalia of the Vast is one of those commanders that should make everyone want to run more cheap spot removal cards in their deck specifically so you don't get yourself into those situations where a commander like that can take over the game. Yes, Kaalia is capable of doing some pretty absurd things, but any commander left unobstructed is going to do absurd things. Some Kaalia decks are particularly vulnerable because once Kaalia is killed they are left with a lot of uncastable 8-drops in their hand.
However, I will say this. If your opponent is always ending up with the same cards in hand game after game, make sure they are shuffling their deck properly. With 99 card decks, I see a lot of people shortcut shuffling because the lack the manual dexterity to riffle shuffle a deck of that size and pile shuffling seems ridiculous.
Has anyone ever played against a Kaalia deck where the first thing they did WASN'T "Ok, Swing with Kaalia, put Avacyn into play"? That is how every single game I've ever played against that commander goes, and it's annoying as hell because with there only being 1 of it in the deck, you'd think maybe just one game it wouldn't get windmill slammed into play. It irritates me so much that I stop caring who wins as long as the Kaalia player doesn't.
/rant
1) Avacyn is a pretty tame target to bring out. If this is all you're seeing, I'd count your lucky stars and while you're at it, go buy a lotto ticket or something.
2) Would you rather my bring t3 hasty Kaalia with Angel of Despair on your t2 land?
3) What if I t3 Sire of Insanity and Mind Twist everyone while I kill you? Bet you're happy to see "just Avacyn" now, yeah?
4) Or would you rather me Master of Cruelties your face and end the game right there?
5) Is this multiplayer or 1v1? If multiplayer, are you telling me that three (or more!) players don't have any spot removal at all in their hands by turn three at the latest!? Learn to mulligan better or, build a better deck. That's all I can really say here.
6) Tutours, man. Just because he can play one copy of a card, any other tutour he has becomes another copy of "whatever it is you're looking for".
I play Kaalia and its not common that Avacyn even makes an appearance, never mind first swing. I've probably seen Gisela more often, even Lord of the Void has made people more unhappy than Avacyn in my games. Last time I put out Avacyn she was stolen. I had to use my own Path to Exile on her. So, I feel no sympathy. Blame the player, not the cards.
sorry, but nothing is worse than kaalia into iona. until you make a rant about that OP, we have nothing else to discuss.
Nothing worse, eh? What about if you're on Esper? So I Iona W to get Doom Bladed, B to get Swords to Plowsharesd or U to get blown up from any angle? Iona is not the best Kaalia target for that reason. Good yes, but hardly backbreaking. Unless your opponents are on mono-colour decks or are bad and put removal all in one colour. The first is a drawback of single colour, and the latter is poor deckbuilding.
Play more tuck, bro. Condemning or Oblationing a Kaalia on turn 3 is pretty funny.
I understand the sentiment here, although it's worth noting if you Condemn Kaalia, the trigger still happens.
That said, Good Kaalia decks build their multiplayer decks to not rely on an unprotected four cmc 2/2 flyer. - she's more like a bonus, an easier end to the same means (circumventing of mana costs).
Nothing worse, eh? What about if you're on Esper? So I Iona W to get Doom Bladed, B to get Swords to Plowsharesd or U to get blown up from any angle? Iona is not the best Kaalia target for that reason. Good yes, but hardly backbreaking. Unless your opponents are on mono-colour decks or are bad and put removal all in one colour. The first is a drawback of single colour, and the latter is poor deckbuilding.
i don't think anyone including myself or the OP said avacyn was the "best" kaalia target. i simply said iona was the worst, as in worst to play against when one can't cast spells in a 1-2 color deck as a result. but hey, that's why i play multiplayer where there are more people with more colors and more removal at the table.
my earlier post was a somewhat knee-jerk response to an OP that clearly was a knee-jerk reaction from someone who died to an avacyn recently.
and for the record, the actual worst is when someone kicks a rite of replication and copies iona five times and doesn't name the same color twice...
Nothing worse, eh? What about if you're on Esper? So I Iona W to get Doom Bladed, B to get Swords to Plowsharesd or U to get blown up from any angle? Iona is not the best Kaalia target for that reason. Good yes, but hardly backbreaking. Unless your opponents are on mono-colour decks or are bad and put removal all in one colour. The first is a drawback of single colour, and the latter is poor deckbuilding.
i don't think anyone including myself or the OP said avacyn was the "best" kaalia target. i simply said it was the worst, as in worst to play against when one can't cast spells in a 1-2 color deck as a result. but hey, that's why i play multiplayer where there are more people with more colors and more removal at the table.
my earlier post was a somewhat knee-jerk response to an OP that clearly was a knee-jerk reaction from someone who died to an avacyn recently.
and for the record, the actual worst is when someone kicks a rite of replication and copies iona five times and doesn't name the same color twice...
How are those five legendary Ionas doing for that Rite player, by the way?
First of all, Kaalia, of the Vast is going for 30$ on scg. Thats very pricey. That tells me that shes pretty dang popular, which means that most of us have played against the deck.
Kaalia's ability always does the same thing. It doesn't really matter what thing shes cheating into play. Your opinion on her trigger is what it is.
Personally, Id like to see her dishing out more dragons.
Kaalia being able to cheat in Avacyn is a fast play, but many other Commander decks have fast plays or infinite combos, so this scenario is a wash over the long haul.
Commander is a social game, so a playgroup could always stop playing with that Kaalia player or ask that player to change decks for a short while. However, asking that player to substitute Avacyn for something else while the rest of the playgroup continues to use their "unfun" cards is unfair.
As a Kaalia player, I also occasionally have to contend with players who use Bribery, but I have answers in my deck for that scenario.
My complaint is primarily due to the sheer frequency of which that seems to happen. I have literally never played against any Kaalia player who hasn't done that every game.
Be glad that Griselbrand is banned - for the brief period that he wasn't, he was that guy that Kaalia players cheated out. THEN you had something to compalin about. If your deck has a combo kill like you said, you should be THRILLED that everyone is constantly throwing irrelevant guys at you.
@mouth of gix
Nice, so not only was Iona in play, but so was Mirror Gallery, and they played Rite the following turn in some sort of non-Kaalia U/W/X deck, which of course no one could respond to with any disenchant or removal.
Honestly, your story might as well have been "the worst is when they cast Door to Nothingness and you can't respond in 2 turns" no offense.
Yes.
You clearly haven't played against enough blue-based combo/control decks.
All I can say is pack more sport removal to keep Kaalia off the board. For some reason, all tbe Kaalia decks I've played never have the mana to actually hardcast all their Demons, Dragons, and Angels.
If a person is playing something degenerate or more overpowered than the rest of the group, then they don't really have room to complain about things being "unfun" if they're constantly the target. Explain that the reason the player is targeted so much is because it's genuinely not fun to play against their deck. Tell the player that if they removed Avacyn/considered a different route to victory you'd both have more fun because he'd be targeted less and you'd not have to deal with the unfun to play against deck. It's a social game, be social and talk about stuff, yo.
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Rakdos 1.0, Master of Cruelties, Avacyn, Iona, sire of insanity... A lot of creatures can end the game unanswered. You just have to answer them.
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sorry, but nothing is worse than kaalia into iona. until you make a rant about that OP, we have nothing else to discuss.
However, I will say this. If your opponent is always ending up with the same cards in hand game after game, make sure they are shuffling their deck properly. With 99 card decks, I see a lot of people shortcut shuffling because the lack the manual dexterity to riffle shuffle a deck of that size and pile shuffling seems ridiculous.
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1) Avacyn is a pretty tame target to bring out. If this is all you're seeing, I'd count your lucky stars and while you're at it, go buy a lotto ticket or something.
2) Would you rather my bring t3 hasty Kaalia with Angel of Despair on your t2 land?
3) What if I t3 Sire of Insanity and Mind Twist everyone while I kill you? Bet you're happy to see "just Avacyn" now, yeah?
4) Or would you rather me Master of Cruelties your face and end the game right there?
5) Is this multiplayer or 1v1? If multiplayer, are you telling me that three (or more!) players don't have any spot removal at all in their hands by turn three at the latest!? Learn to mulligan better or, build a better deck. That's all I can really say here.
6) Tutours, man. Just because he can play one copy of a card, any other tutour he has becomes another copy of "whatever it is you're looking for".
Bingo.
Nothing worse, eh? What about if you're on Esper? So I Iona W to get Doom Bladed, B to get Swords to Plowsharesd or U to get blown up from any angle? Iona is not the best Kaalia target for that reason. Good yes, but hardly backbreaking. Unless your opponents are on mono-colour decks or are bad and put removal all in one colour. The first is a drawback of single colour, and the latter is poor deckbuilding.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I understand the sentiment here, although it's worth noting if you Condemn Kaalia, the trigger still happens.
That said, Good Kaalia decks build their multiplayer decks to not rely on an unprotected four cmc 2/2 flyer. - she's more like a bonus, an easier end to the same means (circumventing of mana costs).
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
i don't think anyone including myself or the OP said avacyn was the "best" kaalia target. i simply said iona was the worst, as in worst to play against when one can't cast spells in a 1-2 color deck as a result. but hey, that's why i play multiplayer where there are more people with more colors and more removal at the table.
my earlier post was a somewhat knee-jerk response to an OP that clearly was a knee-jerk reaction from someone who died to an avacyn recently.
and for the record, the actual worst is when someone kicks a rite of replication and copies iona five times and doesn't name the same color twice...
How are those five legendary Ionas doing for that Rite player, by the way?
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Kaalia's ability always does the same thing. It doesn't really matter what thing shes cheating into play. Your opinion on her trigger is what it is.
Personally, Id like to see her dishing out more dragons.
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Commander is a social game, so a playgroup could always stop playing with that Kaalia player or ask that player to change decks for a short while. However, asking that player to substitute Avacyn for something else while the rest of the playgroup continues to use their "unfun" cards is unfair.
As a Kaalia player, I also occasionally have to contend with players who use Bribery, but I have answers in my deck for that scenario.
Be glad that Griselbrand is banned - for the brief period that he wasn't, he was that guy that Kaalia players cheated out. THEN you had something to compalin about. If your deck has a combo kill like you said, you should be THRILLED that everyone is constantly throwing irrelevant guys at you.
Nice, so not only was Iona in play, but so was Mirror Gallery, and they played Rite the following turn in some sort of non-Kaalia U/W/X deck, which of course no one could respond to with any disenchant or removal.
Honestly, your story might as well have been "the worst is when they cast Door to Nothingness and you can't respond in 2 turns" no offense.
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