**** this site. I'd delete this account but that doesn't seem to be an option. The mods here are ******* useless ********s who ban people for simple ass normal words. **** them and **** this site.
I've heard of EDH groups banning Sol Ring and other accelerators.
I would not play in those groups.
To me, if the decks are all watered-down, it won't make the games much fun because nothing spectacular will happen. Some bans are understandable, but for the most part you want EDH to be a showcase of singular spell power and unique synergies.
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Old enough to know better, much too young to care.
I recently played a 1v1 game where my opponent goes first. He plays Swamp Sol Ring into Armillary Sphere. I play Forest and pass. On his next turn, he plays Swamp, Praetor's Grasp to play my Sol Ring and crack his Sphere fetching two more swamps to his hand. I just look at my lonely Forest to which he already has access to 6 mana before my 2nd turn has even begun. I kind of didn't blame him though and I still ended up winning that game because he got overconfident with his board position.
When most of my friends see Sol Ring in a bad opening hand, they mulligan the rest of the cards except Sol Ring. Mulling all your cards except Sol Ring is kind of a dick move in my opinion because it says your hand is very bad but I'll just keep Sol Ring to get ahead. I really don't like doing that especially in 1v1 because it's basically sculpting the perfect hand. When I do see a Turn 1 Sol Ring, I instantly have to change my game plan. Instead of playing Cultivate or Kodama's Reach on Turn 3, I usually cut ramp in favor of running out a Trygon Predator or Krosan Grip. Otherwise, I would just be buried in mana advantage and the game will be over before I can respond. Still, a turn 3 response to kill a Sol Ring wastes my turn and my opponent has probably already utilized the Sol Ring to put himself much further ahead.
So play a deck with 25 lands, a low curve, and agressive partial paris.
I don't think that's a viable strategy for the creature-based aggro/combo decks I like to play. It's not possible to build a functional 3-color creature-based deck on 25 lands in my opinion. I'd like to see a list if you have one. When I'm drawing lands late-game it's not too bad if I have a draw engine in place. Though I got two draw engines online in my last game but hit nothing useable in 10-15 cards.
I understand both sides of the argument. I think what this has started to become however is a discussion on the validity of Sol Ring. Which, is another thread I'm sure. The idea is intriguing, I'll say that, and if it works in your meta then great. Ultimately, though, I think you'd get less grief if you just banned Sol Ring and Mana Crypt on turn 1 or 2. Thran dynamo is something I typically would not be too worried about if I saw it turn three myself, but I see where you're coming from when you lump it in with the others.
Mana Crypt is, in my opinion, not the real issue--I've been playing for a while now and I've only seen a few played in paper decks. And those belonged to players with sincere investment in their decks. Sol ring is another matter because the commander sets essentially gave them away to anyone who wanted to play commander. Which doesn't solve the problem of the sol ring, but it sorta evens the tables a bit, by allowing everyone to get their hands on them at a fair cost.
I'm curious to hear what your meta would have to say about the signets. I'd imagine not that much--they seem pretty fairly costed to me, but just a thought. How do you feel about critters like Bloom Tender, or guys like Animar who make it crazy easy to dump High CMC critters on the field super early...or for that manner how about spells like Bribery which can get a player any bomb in an opponent's deck for only 5 mana. Are you kinda seeing where I'm going with this? None of these spells are really the same in anyway, but they all help get big threats on the field faster--regardless of the method, and policing that is going to be very difficult to do.
The format is inherently broken, it's individual play groups that make games better or worse. And unfortunately for many EDH is just not good online--which is where many-many people HAVE to play--because you never get to really sit down develop a play group with some stranger halfway around the world. Would I ban a bunch of cards in my meta? Maybe, if i could justify it to my friends and we were still having fun. But I think "fast-mana" is a symptom of a broader topic that is very meta-specific.
No one spoke. There was no need. The threat of the Eldrazi presented a simple choice: lay down your arms and die for nothing, or hold them fast and die for something.
So play a deck with 25 lands, a low curve, and agressive partial paris.
I don't think that's a viable strategy for the creature-based aggro/combo decks I like to play. It's not possible to build a functional 3-color creature-based deck on 25 lands in my opinion. I'd like to see a list if you have one. When I'm drawing lands late-game it's not too bad if I have a draw engine in place. Though I got two draw engines online in my last game but hit nothing useable in 10-15 cards.
This was somewhat of a comment that partial paris enables stupid deckbuilding, though I personally do not go out of my way to advantage of that fact...
But I do in fact a 33-land aggro deck, and I get mana-flooded a lot with that deck. I also have a 29-land deck that plays just fine, with only 6 manafacts (, three Signets, , ).
I don't know how many people here have both played no-ban edh and studied it a decent amount, but it was found in groups that I saw it played that was actually the best card in the format, hands-down. comes second. So what do we have here? The fastest repeatable mana and the most powerful tutor in the format are the best cards one can possibly play? What a twist!
"The life loss attached to Mana Crypt is a real liability to decks interested in the long game. Though comparable to Sol Ring in terms of tempo boost, the decision of whether or not to include it in your deck - and even play choices if you do include it - are non trivial. As a result Mana Crypt is less ubiquitous than Sol Ring and provides much more good tension."
I strongly disagree with that statement. T1 Mana Crypt is an order of magnitude better than a T1 Sol Ring and it, Mana Crypt, is the best card in the format. I don't think the rest of the analysis gets any better if it cannot make such a simple distinction
I have ran as few as 29 lands and those decks win turn 2-5 most games 25 seems to low for anything I can think of if they print a few more mox anything lotus petal type cards in the future maybe but 30 is about the low end and your still playing 50 + mana sources probly backs by cmc 3 draw 7s and lots of tutors that can function as mana as well as card selection like ponder or brainstorm even then 25 just seems a little to low not that it couldn't work but it would probly not be optimal . But considering I dont use partial pars maybe 25 be good.
I have ran as few as 29 lands and those decks win turn 2-5 most games 25 seems to low for anything I can think of if they print a few more mox anything lotus petal type cards in the future maybe but 30 is about the low end and your still playing 50 + mana sources probly backs by cmc 3 draw 7s and lots of tutors that can function as mana as well as card selection like ponder or brainstorm even then 25 just seems a little to low not that it couldn't work but it would probly not be optimal . But considering I dont use partial pars maybe 25 be good.
I've heard of people doing as low as 21 when they are abusing partial paris; you partial down until you get the number of lands that you need for early game (generally reachable within partials down to 5), and you won't be drawing very many lands throughout the rest of the game, since you have such a low number to begin with, so you can instead have more useful stuff to draw.
Sort of like I said. If it allows you to cast a game-breaker before the Control player out of position from you is on the cheapest cost of a playable counterspell, UU mana, then that's going to be an unbalancing card for a format where Force of Will/Swan Song are one of's. And the cheapest card I can see qualifying as a "game-breaker" is probably 4cc. So even Summer Bloom with an improbable God hand only lets you make use of that 6-mana on your turn 3, after every Control player ahead of you has likely made 1UU, and each one of them behind has a solid chance to be on UU.
People under the impression that some big creature thingy is the worst to be expected from fast mana are diluting the discussion. It's not about some ramp like Bloom Tender into a card like Bribery. It's not the same thing at all. The issue is that Control is not at all a favorite against Combo in this format, while it's supposed to be its natural counter. That's why Combo decks can continue to run amok even in areas and groups where it is perfectly expected and built for. Multiple Control decks at a table are needed to stop Combo with any consistency. It's only as long as that's the case that the format will be inherently broken. It's not just broken because the RC says it is, or because decks exist that leave 6cmc creatures unplayable, or because non-creatures make the Spirit of EDH Kitty sad. It's because Control can't balance out Combo when Combo uses Legacy-banned cards and Control has one Force in the whole deck. That's all.
I'd be happy with a fast-mana ban, but Sol Ring and company aren't huge issues in where I play. Yeah, they help, but nobody runs tuned combo decks so whatever. I went first-turn Mana Vault into a second-turn Gilded Lotus the other day with my Godo deck and still lost.
Moxnix and I have been doing some 2HG double Edric lately. We both adjusted our decks to have numerous answers to turn 1 Sol Ring. I don't run Mental Misstep to stop 1cc spells, I run it because it specifically stops Sol Ring. That's a pretty overpowered card when 2 broken decks playing 2HG have to metagame for 1 card...
Moxnix and I have been doing some 2HG double Edric lately. We both adjusted our decks to have numerous answers to turn 1 Sol Ring. I don't run Mental Misstep to stop 1cc spells, I run it because it specifically stops Sol Ring. That's a pretty overpowered card when 2 broken decks playing 2HG have to metagame for 1 card...
Simic colors aren't the best colors to deal with Turn 1 Sol Ring unless you run Naturalize. The only two cards I have currently that can deal with a Turn 1 Sol Ring is a Turn 3 Krosan Grip and, if it survives/gets through, a Turn 4 Trygon Predator. The biggest problem I see with a Turn 1 Sol Ring is that it instantly changes your game plan sometimes before your turn has even begun. That's pretty game warping if I've ever seen it.
Since I'm VP at my college's club, I've also been thinking about preventing Sol Ring from being played on Turn 1 and maybe even Turn 2. I hate Turn 1 Sol Ring plays much more than I like playing with it. When I play a Turn 1 Sol Ring, my winning percentage just skyrocketed and my opponent feels miserable because I'm already so far ahead. I've been on the receiving end on some very dickish plays at my LGS like Turn 2 Grand Arbiter Augustin IV off a Turn 1 Sol Ring.
Simic colors aren't the best colors to deal with Turn 1 Sol Ring unless you run Naturalize. The only two cards I have currently that can deal with a Turn 1 Sol Ring is a Turn 3 Krosan Grip and, if it survives/gets through, a Turn 4 Trygon Predator. The biggest problem I see with a Turn 1 Sol Ring is that it instantly changes your game plan sometimes before your turn has even begun. That's pretty game warping if I've ever seen it.
I think between the 2 of us we have Nature's Claim x 2, Naturalize, both Deglamers, Mental Misstep, Chain of Vapor x 2 (not the best but we have lots of cheap counters), Spell Pierce x 2(?) and Force of Will which can all potentially deal with Sol Ring before they get to untap with it. But you're correct there isn't a critical mass of answers if it were just 1 of us so in my 1v1 deck I just hope they don't cast it.
EDIT: Most of those are in Mox's deck but our decks are set up a little differently and he's better as the answer guy while I spam dorks.
Simic colors aren't the best colors to deal with Turn 1 Sol Ring unless you run Naturalize. The only two cards I have currently that can deal with a Turn 1 Sol Ring is a Turn 3 Krosan Grip and, if it survives/gets through, a Turn 4 Trygon Predator. The biggest problem I see with a Turn 1 Sol Ring is that it instantly changes your game plan sometimes before your turn has even begun. That's pretty game warping if I've ever seen it.
I think between the 2 of us we have Nature's Claim x 2, Naturalize, both Deglamers, Mental Misstep, Chain of Vapor x 2 (not the best but we have lots of cheap counters), Spell Pierce x 2(?) and Force of Will which can all potentially deal with Sol Ring before they get to untap with it. But you're correct there isn't a critical mass of answers if it were just 1 of us so in my 1v1 deck I just hope they don't cast it.
EDIT: Most of those are in Mox's deck but our decks are set up a little differently and he's better as the answer guy while I spam dorks.
Thanks for the list of options. I will probably add in Unravel the AEther for my own deck because I only have 2 cheap answers to an early Sol Ring. Since I mainly play 1v1 games and the occasional multiplayer/2HG game, I want to avoid adding cheap narrow counters cards like Mental Misstep because it takes up valuable slots I can just use for other cards that help my commander's synergy, but I understand why you use it. Answering a Turn 1 Sol Ring with these narrow counters is a lose-lose in my view. Adding too many of these can hurt your deck, but not adding enough means you are less likely to stop a turn 1 Sol Ring. Nature's Claim and Chain of Vapor are something I might also consider though.
I play both of these cards in a lot of decks and highly recommend them. If your commander is expensive (5cc+) and you can't consistently give it shroud/hexproof Chain is not as good because they can often bounce your Commander but I typically play decks where my commander doesn't matter or doesn't cost much. It's also good with Tangle Wire and other cards that want to be bounced.
I'm just happy someone acknowledged something I wrote online Thanks Mercury.
Ultimately, Justice probably has the right of it--but we have to face the reality that fast mana, most specifically Sol Ring, is here to stay for the foreseeable future. The format is far too complex to boil down any particular topic to hard incontrovertible facts--except when it comes to Prophet of Kurfix That ***** should get the ban hammer immediately Kidding of course--sort of.
Each game is different, sometimes we drop sol rings and our game pitters out because we spent all of the goodies in our hands and then drew 6 straight lands--or sometimes we keep a hand with a ring, but not a second black source and we're stuck waiting for it for 8 turns. Some times we drop sol ring and are immediately focused by the entire table...All of these things happen. Good decks can usually deal with them better than poor decks. But isn't that what the point? To have fun building and playing a good deck? Can we fight fire with fire and pack all of our decks with rocks and ramp--sure, by all means, it'll make my shattering spree better and better.
I'm going to eat a sandwich mmm bacon
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No one spoke. There was no need. The threat of the Eldrazi presented a simple choice: lay down your arms and die for nothing, or hold them fast and die for something.
Et cetera. It suddenly becomes interesting on turn 3, because South called out his general (albeit a 1/1). Though I wouldn't be surprised if Animar was banned in the format you're proposing, so it'd probably be Riku instead. On turn 5 at the earliest.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
No we should not ban fast mana if you want to make your own house rules that's great but I play in an environment where each game has a time limit and there are prizes in the line and fast mana helps to make sure someone wins within the allotted time. Fast mana is a thing in the format and that's why sol ring gets printed in every commander set. If you want to play the format play all the fast mana you can. I think fast mana is something that every deck can take advantage of therefore it is fair and should not be banned. Colors like green especially are designed to utilize fast mana and if you take that away from them then suddenly green becomes the worst color in the format and you just basically stopped everyone from playing a color, if they want to win.
No we should not ban fast mana if you want to make your own house rules that's great but I play in an environment where each game has a time limit and there are prizes in the line and fast mana helps to make sure someone wins within the allotted time. Fast mana is a thing in the format and that's why sol ring gets printed in every commander set. If you want to play the format play all the fast mana you can. I think fast mana is something that every deck can take advantage of therefore it is fair and should not be banned. Colors like green especially are designed to utilize fast mana and if you take that away from them then suddenly green becomes the worst color in the format and you just basically stopped everyone from playing a color, if they want to win.
Well actually green becomes more powerful because it earns a monopoly on fast mana if stuff like Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith are banned
No we should not ban fast mana if you want to make your own house rules that's great but I play in an environment where each game has a time limit and there are prizes in the line and fast mana helps to make sure someone wins within the allotted time. Fast mana is a thing in the format and that's why sol ring gets printed in every commander set. If you want to play the format play all the fast mana you can. I think fast mana is something that every deck can take advantage of therefore it is fair and should not be banned. Colors like green especially are designed to utilize fast mana and if you take that away from them then suddenly green becomes the worst color in the format and you just basically stopped everyone from playing a color, if they want to win.
Well actually green becomes more powerful because it earns a monopoly on fast mana if stuff like Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith are banned
I was assuming that by fast mana they would include creature bans like rofellos, llanowar emissary and the like, because if they didn't I think green would then be way overpowered being able to do things turn 3 that other decks wouldn't be able to deal with until turn 6 or 7
With that said. I don't think fast mana is always a problem as archenemy can kick in real quick in certain games.
Agreed. Ramping up with rocks right out of the gate can result in people focusing in on you a bit more. In my experience, politics often keeps me from going crazy with ramp.
If your deck isn't comically durdly, being multiple turns ahead of the table on mana from the get go is insanely broken. There's a reason why Sol Ring is banned in every format with a banlist beyond ante cards. It is easily one of the most powerful cards ever printed. It is an easy first pick in Cubes with Ancestral Recall and Time Walk. It creates pointless non-games and definitely needs to be banned. I imagine EDH players are just so used to its omnipresence that its true power just goes unnoticed.
Just Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. As someone who's run both for many years, people don't understand how degenerate they are opening the game with the right hand. I don't care what anyone says about "politics", if you play a turn 1 Cultivate with mana crypt, or a turn 2 Oracle, they're in big trouble. I guess what I'm trying to say is, the way a lot of decks work, by the time opponents can start "dealing" with that player the damage has already been done.
For example, we had the perfect example tonight, a Mono Blue player opened with Sol Ring into Thran Dynano and Concecrated Sphinx on turn 3, by turn 5 he had a Reliquary Tower and like 20 cards in his hand (long story short, we all fought him well that game but he slaughtered us... and it ALL stemmed from what a disgusting start he had). My point is, had he a less insane start he wouldn't have been essentially 6+ turns ahead of us in terms of board state with Erayo out, fast constant mana rocks like Sol Ring and Mana Crypt allow for broken openings that exponentially speed up your board state.
Someone said "well what about Green using Exploration/Cultivate/etc", that's completely different imo because that's what green is supposed to do, its part of the flavor and one of the advantages from splashing that color which you're entitled to take advantage of. But if a Mono Blue player is accelerating faster than a Mono Green player because of degenerate mana rocks and draw spells, that's a tell tale sign that something is off balance. My beef isn't with Thran Dynmo or any of the more expensive, it's mainly just the two I mentioned.
I would not play in those groups.
To me, if the decks are all watered-down, it won't make the games much fun because nothing spectacular will happen. Some bans are understandable, but for the most part you want EDH to be a showcase of singular spell power and unique synergies.
When most of my friends see Sol Ring in a bad opening hand, they mulligan the rest of the cards except Sol Ring. Mulling all your cards except Sol Ring is kind of a dick move in my opinion because it says your hand is very bad but I'll just keep Sol Ring to get ahead. I really don't like doing that especially in 1v1 because it's basically sculpting the perfect hand. When I do see a Turn 1 Sol Ring, I instantly have to change my game plan. Instead of playing Cultivate or Kodama's Reach on Turn 3, I usually cut ramp in favor of running out a Trygon Predator or Krosan Grip. Otherwise, I would just be buried in mana advantage and the game will be over before I can respond. Still, a turn 3 response to kill a Sol Ring wastes my turn and my opponent has probably already utilized the Sol Ring to put himself much further ahead.
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I don't think that's a viable strategy for the creature-based aggro/combo decks I like to play. It's not possible to build a functional 3-color creature-based deck on 25 lands in my opinion. I'd like to see a list if you have one. When I'm drawing lands late-game it's not too bad if I have a draw engine in place. Though I got two draw engines online in my last game but hit nothing useable in 10-15 cards.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
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Mana Crypt is, in my opinion, not the real issue--I've been playing for a while now and I've only seen a few played in paper decks. And those belonged to players with sincere investment in their decks. Sol ring is another matter because the commander sets essentially gave them away to anyone who wanted to play commander. Which doesn't solve the problem of the sol ring, but it sorta evens the tables a bit, by allowing everyone to get their hands on them at a fair cost.
I'm curious to hear what your meta would have to say about the signets. I'd imagine not that much--they seem pretty fairly costed to me, but just a thought. How do you feel about critters like Bloom Tender, or guys like Animar who make it crazy easy to dump High CMC critters on the field super early...or for that manner how about spells like Bribery which can get a player any bomb in an opponent's deck for only 5 mana. Are you kinda seeing where I'm going with this? None of these spells are really the same in anyway, but they all help get big threats on the field faster--regardless of the method, and policing that is going to be very difficult to do.
The format is inherently broken, it's individual play groups that make games better or worse. And unfortunately for many EDH is just not good online--which is where many-many people HAVE to play--because you never get to really sit down develop a play group with some stranger halfway around the world. Would I ban a bunch of cards in my meta? Maybe, if i could justify it to my friends and we were still having fun. But I think "fast-mana" is a symptom of a broader topic that is very meta-specific.
This was somewhat of a comment that partial paris enables stupid deckbuilding, though I personally do not go out of my way to advantage of that fact...
But I do in fact a 33-land aggro deck, and I get mana-flooded a lot with that deck. I also have a 29-land deck that plays just fine, with only 6 manafacts (, three Signets, , ).
If you do the math, it sout that partial paris rules ensure a rather absurdly high chance of drawing a specific card or a worthwhile tutor for that card: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/articles/15187-the-math-of-banning-sol-ring-in-commander
I don't know how many people here have both played no-ban edh and studied it a decent amount, but it was found in groups that I saw it played that was actually the best card in the format, hands-down. comes second. So what do we have here? The fastest repeatable mana and the most powerful tutor in the format are the best cards one can possibly play? What a twist!
I strongly disagree with that statement. T1 Mana Crypt is an order of magnitude better than a T1 Sol Ring and it, Mana Crypt, is the best card in the format. I don't think the rest of the analysis gets any better if it cannot make such a simple distinction
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
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Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
I've heard of people doing as low as 21 when they are abusing partial paris; you partial down until you get the number of lands that you need for early game (generally reachable within partials down to 5), and you won't be drawing very many lands throughout the rest of the game, since you have such a low number to begin with, so you can instead have more useful stuff to draw.
Sort of like I said. If it allows you to cast a game-breaker before the Control player out of position from you is on the cheapest cost of a playable counterspell, UU mana, then that's going to be an unbalancing card for a format where Force of Will/Swan Song are one of's. And the cheapest card I can see qualifying as a "game-breaker" is probably 4cc. So even Summer Bloom with an improbable God hand only lets you make use of that 6-mana on your turn 3, after every Control player ahead of you has likely made 1UU, and each one of them behind has a solid chance to be on UU.
People under the impression that some big creature thingy is the worst to be expected from fast mana are diluting the discussion. It's not about some ramp like Bloom Tender into a card like Bribery. It's not the same thing at all. The issue is that Control is not at all a favorite against Combo in this format, while it's supposed to be its natural counter. That's why Combo decks can continue to run amok even in areas and groups where it is perfectly expected and built for. Multiple Control decks at a table are needed to stop Combo with any consistency. It's only as long as that's the case that the format will be inherently broken. It's not just broken because the RC says it is, or because decks exist that leave 6cmc creatures unplayable, or because non-creatures make the Spirit of EDH Kitty sad. It's because Control can't balance out Combo when Combo uses Legacy-banned cards and Control has one Force in the whole deck. That's all.
Simic colors aren't the best colors to deal with Turn 1 Sol Ring unless you run Naturalize. The only two cards I have currently that can deal with a Turn 1 Sol Ring is a Turn 3 Krosan Grip and, if it survives/gets through, a Turn 4 Trygon Predator. The biggest problem I see with a Turn 1 Sol Ring is that it instantly changes your game plan sometimes before your turn has even begun. That's pretty game warping if I've ever seen it.
Since I'm VP at my college's club, I've also been thinking about preventing Sol Ring from being played on Turn 1 and maybe even Turn 2. I hate Turn 1 Sol Ring plays much more than I like playing with it. When I play a Turn 1 Sol Ring, my winning percentage just skyrocketed and my opponent feels miserable because I'm already so far ahead. I've been on the receiving end on some very dickish plays at my LGS like Turn 2 Grand Arbiter Augustin IV off a Turn 1 Sol Ring.
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I think between the 2 of us we have Nature's Claim x 2, Naturalize, both Deglamers, Mental Misstep, Chain of Vapor x 2 (not the best but we have lots of cheap counters), Spell Pierce x 2(?) and Force of Will which can all potentially deal with Sol Ring before they get to untap with it. But you're correct there isn't a critical mass of answers if it were just 1 of us so in my 1v1 deck I just hope they don't cast it.
EDIT: Most of those are in Mox's deck but our decks are set up a little differently and he's better as the answer guy while I spam dorks.
Thanks for the list of options. I will probably add in Unravel the AEther for my own deck because I only have 2 cheap answers to an early Sol Ring. Since I mainly play 1v1 games and the occasional multiplayer/2HG game, I want to avoid adding cheap narrow counters cards like Mental Misstep because it takes up valuable slots I can just use for other cards that help my commander's synergy, but I understand why you use it. Answering a Turn 1 Sol Ring with these narrow counters is a lose-lose in my view. Adding too many of these can hurt your deck, but not adding enough means you are less likely to stop a turn 1 Sol Ring. Nature's Claim and Chain of Vapor are something I might also consider though.
Credit to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the Avatar & Miraculous Recovery for the Banner.
My 540 Card Cube (WIP)
I play both of these cards in a lot of decks and highly recommend them. If your commander is expensive (5cc+) and you can't consistently give it shroud/hexproof Chain is not as good because they can often bounce your Commander but I typically play decks where my commander doesn't matter or doesn't cost much. It's also good with Tangle Wire and other cards that want to be bounced.
Ultimately, Justice probably has the right of it--but we have to face the reality that fast mana, most specifically Sol Ring, is here to stay for the foreseeable future. The format is far too complex to boil down any particular topic to hard incontrovertible facts--except when it comes to Prophet of Kurfix That ***** should get the ban hammer immediately Kidding of course--sort of.
Each game is different, sometimes we drop sol rings and our game pitters out because we spent all of the goodies in our hands and then drew 6 straight lands--or sometimes we keep a hand with a ring, but not a second black source and we're stuck waiting for it for 8 turns. Some times we drop sol ring and are immediately focused by the entire table...All of these things happen. Good decks can usually deal with them better than poor decks. But isn't that what the point? To have fun building and playing a good deck? Can we fight fire with fire and pack all of our decks with rocks and ramp--sure, by all means, it'll make my shattering spree better and better.
I'm going to eat a sandwich mmm bacon
Turn 1
East: Forest
South: Breeding Pool, tapped
West: Swamp
North: Jwar Isle Refuge
Turn 2
East: Swamp
South: Mountain
West: Rakdos Carnarium, return swamp to hand
North: Scrubland
Turn 3
East: Rupture Spire
South: Scalding Tarn, search for island, Animar, Soul of Elements.
West: Crumbling Necropolis
North: Plains
Et cetera. It suddenly becomes interesting on turn 3, because South called out his general (albeit a 1/1). Though I wouldn't be surprised if Animar was banned in the format you're proposing, so it'd probably be Riku instead. On turn 5 at the earliest.
On phasing:
Well actually green becomes more powerful because it earns a monopoly on fast mana if stuff like Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith are banned
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
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I was assuming that by fast mana they would include creature bans like rofellos, llanowar emissary and the like, because if they didn't I think green would then be way overpowered being able to do things turn 3 that other decks wouldn't be able to deal with until turn 6 or 7
Agreed. Ramping up with rocks right out of the gate can result in people focusing in on you a bit more. In my experience, politics often keeps me from going crazy with ramp.
UAzami, Locus of All KnowledgeU
BMarrow-Gnawer, Crime Lord of ComboB
WBRTariel, Hellraiser StaxWBR
Annul is really good in EDH
For example, we had the perfect example tonight, a Mono Blue player opened with Sol Ring into Thran Dynano and Concecrated Sphinx on turn 3, by turn 5 he had a Reliquary Tower and like 20 cards in his hand (long story short, we all fought him well that game but he slaughtered us... and it ALL stemmed from what a disgusting start he had). My point is, had he a less insane start he wouldn't have been essentially 6+ turns ahead of us in terms of board state with Erayo out, fast constant mana rocks like Sol Ring and Mana Crypt allow for broken openings that exponentially speed up your board state.
Someone said "well what about Green using Exploration/Cultivate/etc", that's completely different imo because that's what green is supposed to do, its part of the flavor and one of the advantages from splashing that color which you're entitled to take advantage of. But if a Mono Blue player is accelerating faster than a Mono Green player because of degenerate mana rocks and draw spells, that's a tell tale sign that something is off balance. My beef isn't with Thran Dynmo or any of the more expensive, it's mainly just the two I mentioned.
GWRUB[EDH] Reaper KingGWRUB
GW[Legacy] BEARS (#1 Threat in America)GW
UR[Legacy] Arcane MeleeUR