yep, and only blue does that. red's got a handful of cards that can copy c-rift to make it symmetrical again; black can hope to force a discard. but outside of very small set of very narrow answer cards, the other colors don't have any way of interacting with or adapting to cyclonic rift.
Green has so many etb effects that it is ridiculous. Black has so many hand hate cards, it isn't even funny, plus it's black, you shouldn't have a ton of permanents any ways and you should likely have the most mana at the table with your urbogs and cabals and other mana doublers. Cyclonic isn't hard to play around, just play with some thought behind your actions.
If you're playing against a blue player you should know never to clutter your board too much in the first place. Needlessly overextending is kinda a bad thing to do in the first place, so maybe it isn't a big deal unless you're all tokens.
I hate rift's instant speed so much but meh it's really only my Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer that views it as the bane of my existence. It's why I pack Lapse of Certainty, Burnout, and a Sunforger to increase my chances of responding to blue being dum
If you're playing against a blue player you should know never to clutter your board too much in the first place. Needlessly overextending is kinda a bad thing to do in the first place, so maybe it isn't a big deal unless you're all tokens.
It has it's ups and downs if you're a token deck.
Cons: Normal methods of board wipe protection (Fresh Meat, Avacyn, Angel of Hope, ect.) won't help you. Your enchantments leave play, resetting things like Assemble the Legion. Rebuilding your board can be costly, mana-wise.
Pros: You don't loose your creatures to the yard, letting you rebuild faster. You can reuse ETB triggers. If your general is expensive to cast with commander tax, you can avoid paying as much (Commander 2013 generals are notable exceptions to this).
Honestly, if you're a token deck you should be used to board wipes anyways, and recovery should be an inherent part of your deck. The most annoyance I've had with CR is when I didn't have the mana to kill Marath, making me recast him for only 3.
HOLY *****! Non-land Permanents?? I've been playing it as return all permanents this whole time!! It's not nearly as powerful as i thought it was. And to think I even managed to recover from it once.
Jesus.
You mean there isn't a single person you play with that didn't catch this? Holy crap. RTFC guys.
also if your main complaint is that its one sided, that is how I feel about your creatures in my blue black deck that runs nothing bigger than a trinket mage.
I usually just replay my stuff prioritizing rocks. Similar to other boardwipes actually...
try not to overextend in the first place.
but what does overextending mean with regards to cyclonic rift? to overextend means to play out your hand. since rift just puts things back in your hand, there's no reason not to play out your hand with respect to a rift.
as much as i love me my akroma's vengeance, rift i think is on another level entirely. vengeance says 'no more things!' rift says 'only i get things!' at instant speed.
I agree. Sure you get to play all your things eventually, but that doesn't change the fact that for a moment, however brief, you still have none of your things and they have all of theirs. Cyclonic is by no means banworthy, as the OP seems to suggest, but it's a very good card for this format, and cracks wide open a lot of board states for the player in a way that no symmetrical board wipe can.
The best way to deal with that is to be proactive and aggressive, while not overextending. Make them use Cyclonic Rift to save themselves from a combo or lethal damage, not so they can set up the perfect board state to combo out.
Use discard and disruption effects to prevent them from ever casting it. Stax is excellent here.
Additionally, seriously examining your mana curve and lowering it will help you on average a lot. An average cost of 3.0 will be far faster in recovering than an average cost of 4.0.
EDIT: I misread your post initially, edited mine to reflect a more proper reading.
Is the complaint that they might win the game? In that case for only a tiny bit more mana they could be almost assuredly winning the game with the likes of Tooth and Nail, Omniscience, Craterhoof Behemoth... Cards win games. That doesn't mean they should be banned.
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While this card can be played around, I'm for banning it myself. Here's why:
1- Blue is the only one able to counter it without extenuating circumstances. It requires every deck to think about and have ways of dealing with it to be competitive.
2- It's non-symetrical, and instant. To people who think that you can just recast all your stuff: They're playing Blue and have at least 7 mana open after untapping 1 second later. They're going to have counters for every important card you had lined up. Every bit of effort you spent playing through and around counterspells is wasted.
3- It's never a dead card. Early it's an efficient bounce of a T2 Jin-G or something else crazy. Late it nearly wins you the game on the spot. This isn't risk/reward. It's reward/bigger reward.
If it was any 2 of those things, I wouldn't care. EDH is full of broken cards, so what? But this card alone makes be unwilling to play long games.
There's some decks hit harder than others. As said, mono-green, mono-black, etb and big artifact mana are the least affected.
Any deck requiring a large board position can never have less than 2-3 mana open and play blue or tons of discard/cap effects. My Ghave runs Sadistic Hypnotist, Mind Slash and a few tutors and still gets hit quite often by it.
Not to mention that it goes in LITERALLY every max-optimized deck running blue. The only reasons to remove it are A)Personal reasons B) Not having one or C) Local banlists. I'm including themes in personal reasons, as well as stuff like G/U Primal Surge decks which wouldn't run. (But are hardly the best available decklist.)
That's not to say I don't use it (too good.) or that I lose to it every time it's played successfully. I just feel blue's already the strongest color and hardly needs this, while a lot of other colors would gain a lot by having it banned. If it was a red card I would like it for example.
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Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
While this card can be played around, I'm for banning it myself. Here's why:
2- It's non-symetrical, and instant. To people who think that you can just recast all your stuff: They're playing Blue and have at least 7 mana open after untapping 1 second later. They're going to have counters for every important card you had lined up. Every bit of effort you spent playing through and around counterspells is wasted.
That's just ridiculous. In a 4 player game they wont even be able to counter 1 thing from each player and just became the Archenemy.
In no conceivable realm does this card meet ANY banning criteria. "Its a strong card, I don't want to play against it" will never be a ban criteria.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
The instant speed makes it mildly annoying, but would you rather they Akroma's Vengeance'd you a turn earlier instead? Rift isn't even close to ban worthy.
I would much rather akroma than C.rift. Akrmoa wipes the board, everyone gets hit. C rift only wipes your opponents and gives you a HUGE advantage. If it was just creatures that is fine, but if you have even ten things returned to your hand, how do you deal with say, having to cast Vigor, seedborn muse, your general, Just heavy cost creatures. Along with your mana rocks and combo pieces. If it was just return all creatures that is fine, but no its "Clean the board and put yourself ahead."
And i have never seen it used to pull a guy a safety net. It usually takes my group 3-4 turns to get back the same board position, granted our stuff is not countered on the way.
As for countering everything: Anyone with a reasonable amount of ramp and draw (blue) can pull of 3-4 counters if they dedicate their turns to that. It happened very recently in a game I played thursday. Niv had his general and charmbreaker devils out and cast rift right before his turn. He then proceeded to counter every important spell that slipped by him (2 or 3 i think.) He got it back once with Charmbreaker Devils, but hardly needed it at that point.
Saying it meets no banning criteria is a gross hyperbole. Let's look at the reasons Emerkul was banned "Very strong." "Can be/is played in almost every deck." "Requires decks to be built with him in mind, limiting construction." were some of the main reasons. Rift is blue-only, but meets all of them.
In a competitive meta, Rift will be in just about every deck. I and many other players need to work hard when building our decks to make it work well vs. rift.
As I said as well, it's not so obscenely broken that it needs a ban ASAP or I think it will kill the format, but it deserves one to free up a deck slot in blue and allow a larger range of non-blue decks to have a chance to be more competitive. (While banning rift won't be enough, it would be a start. I feel EDH could do with color-balancing.)
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Saying it meets no banning criteria is a gross hyperbole. Let's look at the reasons Emerkul was banned "Very strong." "Can be/is played in almost every deck." "Requires decks to be built with him in mind, limiting construction." were some of the main reasons. Rift is blue-only, but meets all of them.
Where exactly are you getting those quotes? Because the reason it was banned is because EDH had turned into a game of who can get Emmy out, and it has VERY narrow answers. Games ended when it landed, C Rift doesn't do that unless the blue player has been building board presence unmolested. You don't have to build a deck with narrow answers to C Rift.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I would much rather akroma than C.rift. Akrmoa wipes the board, everyone gets hit. C rift only wipes your opponents and gives you a HUGE advantage. If it was just creatures that is fine, but if you have even ten things returned to your hand, how do you deal with say, having to cast Vigor, seedborn muse, your general, Just heavy cost creatures. Along with your mana rocks and combo pieces. If it was just return all creatures that is fine, but no its "Clean the board and put yourself ahead."
And i have never seen it used to pull a guy a safety net. It usually takes my group 3-4 turns to get back the same board position, granted our stuff is not countered on the way.
Well, as has been mentioned, quite a few of us are playing aggro style decks. When the person holding the Cyclonic Rift is dying, they probably have to safety net it or die. As I said, the people in my group who run CR are typically playing combo/control or a really heavy, grindy control and they get focused first. But not because they run Rift, because they're kill priority based on their ability to win quickly or stall the game.
Two ways to recover quickly are to have a low curve, or generate a lot of mana early on (land based). The second doesn't work well when MLD is present, but generally after a rift I can resolve Vexing Shusher (I always tutor for it when there's a blue player), and start rebuilding. If the guy who rifted wants to counter my next spell four times to get rid of it, that's fine. He's down four counters while I'm only down four mana.
I'm not sure what you wanted to hear. :/ Most of us have agreed that we think it's strong but not unbearable to work with, and have told you how we rebuild.
While this card can be played around, I'm for banning it myself. Here's why:
1- Blue is the only one able to counter it without extenuating circumstances. It requires every deck to think about and have ways of dealing with it to be competitive.
2- It's non-symetrical, and instant. To people who think that you can just recast all your stuff: They're playing Blue and have at least 7 mana open after untapping 1 second later. They're going to have counters for every important card you had lined up. Every bit of effort you spent playing through and around counterspells is wasted.
3- It's never a dead card. Early it's an efficient bounce of a T2 Jin-G or something else crazy. Late it nearly wins you the game on the spot. This isn't risk/reward. It's reward/bigger reward.
1. Not hard to play around at all. I have not built any decks around this card and have come back from many rifts to win. My strongest deck against this is Mono-G which abuses ETB effects. It's more effective against my voltron deck, but I'd rather see a rift than a Bane of Progress or even Vandalblast with that deck. If it helps them win on the spot it is part of a win condition. So what? Compare it to something like Craterhoof Behemoth and see which one wins more games on the spot...Cyclonic Rift has never won a game by itself. Chances are, the person that overloaded it is now playing 3v1.
2. If they can counter every spell played in a 4 player game, then I will concede this point. This frankly has never happened and just isn't a real thing.
3. Brainstorm is never a dead card. In fact, this is typically a prerequisite for me adding a card to a deck.
Cyclonic Rift will never be banned and thinking it should shows a lack of understanding the philosophy behind banning cards.
C Rift is no where near broken. It has answers. Counterspells, discard, or even just focus firing the blue guy so he has to use it defensively are all viable strategies for playing around it. Yes, sometimes you can cast it at end of turn and win the game, but if that's the case then you'd probably be able to win with any number of cards, such as T&N or Time Stretch or w/e.
If the blue player casts C rift and then proceeds to sit on their mana for counterspells, then you should:
1) Thank them for not winning the game on the spot
2) Use common sense and not drop big spells when the blue guy is sitting on a ton of mana and just bounced your board back to your hand.
Poor play and whining aren't things that make a card ban-worthy. C rift is strong , but no where near broken or ban-worthy.
If it was just creatures that is fine, but if you have even ten things returned to your hand, how do you deal with say, having to cast Vigor, seedborn muse, your general, Just heavy cost creatures. Along with your mana rocks and combo pieces.
"Even ten things"? How are you not in a commanding lead if you regularly get 10 non-land permanents out?
But to answer your question, I simply replay whatever was bounced over the next turn or two. It's not like I'm worried about blue's ability to aggro me out in the time it takes to recast my stuff. When someone Cyclonic Rifts me, I pick up all my things and thank my lucky stars it wasn't Akroma's Vengeance or Planar Cleansing or else all of my valuable permanents would be forever lost to me instead of just back in my hand to be replayed at my own convenience.
If the blue player casts C rift and then proceeds to sit on their mana for counterspells, then you should:
1) Thank them for not winning the game on the spot
2) Use common sense and not drop big spells when the blue guy is sitting on a ton of mana and just bounced your board back to your hand.
HOLY *****! Non-land Permanents?? I've been playing it as return all permanents this whole time!! It's not nearly as powerful as i thought it was. And to think I even managed to recover from it once.
Jesus.
Then it's a good thing Upheaval is banned in Commander, because that's essentially what that is.
@OP: The only times I've ever really been on the receiving end of a Cyclonic Rift have been when I'm playing mono green, so I've usually had enough mana available to replay whatever was bounced to my hand. Which is often pretty handy because replaying a Woodfall Primus isn't the worst thing that could happen to me.
Green has so many etb effects that it is ridiculous. Black has so many hand hate cards, it isn't even funny, plus it's black, you shouldn't have a ton of permanents any ways and you should likely have the most mana at the table with your urbogs and cabals and other mana doublers. Cyclonic isn't hard to play around, just play with some thought behind your actions.
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It has it's ups and downs if you're a token deck.
Cons: Normal methods of board wipe protection (Fresh Meat, Avacyn, Angel of Hope, ect.) won't help you. Your enchantments leave play, resetting things like Assemble the Legion. Rebuilding your board can be costly, mana-wise.
Pros: You don't loose your creatures to the yard, letting you rebuild faster. You can reuse ETB triggers. If your general is expensive to cast with commander tax, you can avoid paying as much (Commander 2013 generals are notable exceptions to this).
Honestly, if you're a token deck you should be used to board wipes anyways, and recovery should be an inherent part of your deck. The most annoyance I've had with CR is when I didn't have the mana to kill Marath, making me recast him for only 3.
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You mean there isn't a single person you play with that didn't catch this? Holy crap. RTFC guys.
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I agree. Sure you get to play all your things eventually, but that doesn't change the fact that for a moment, however brief, you still have none of your things and they have all of theirs. Cyclonic is by no means banworthy, as the OP seems to suggest, but it's a very good card for this format, and cracks wide open a lot of board states for the player in a way that no symmetrical board wipe can.
The best way to deal with that is to be proactive and aggressive, while not overextending. Make them use Cyclonic Rift to save themselves from a combo or lethal damage, not so they can set up the perfect board state to combo out.
Use discard and disruption effects to prevent them from ever casting it. Stax is excellent here.
Additionally, seriously examining your mana curve and lowering it will help you on average a lot. An average cost of 3.0 will be far faster in recovering than an average cost of 4.0.
EDIT: I misread your post initially, edited mine to reflect a more proper reading.
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Is the complaint that they might win the game? In that case for only a tiny bit more mana they could be almost assuredly winning the game with the likes of Tooth and Nail, Omniscience, Craterhoof Behemoth... Cards win games. That doesn't mean they should be banned.
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Major EDH player! Current decks: UUBraids, Waifu | UGZegana | RGWEnchantress Uril, the Miststalker | WBTriad of Fates (new!) | RBGXira Arien Re-dredge-imator (unretired!)
Eladamri | Anowon | Sydri | Melek | Augustin IV | Thelon | Sliver Overlord | Ramirez DePietro
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1- Blue is the only one able to counter it without extenuating circumstances. It requires every deck to think about and have ways of dealing with it to be competitive.
2- It's non-symetrical, and instant. To people who think that you can just recast all your stuff: They're playing Blue and have at least 7 mana open after untapping 1 second later. They're going to have counters for every important card you had lined up. Every bit of effort you spent playing through and around counterspells is wasted.
3- It's never a dead card. Early it's an efficient bounce of a T2 Jin-G or something else crazy. Late it nearly wins you the game on the spot. This isn't risk/reward. It's reward/bigger reward.
If it was any 2 of those things, I wouldn't care. EDH is full of broken cards, so what? But this card alone makes be unwilling to play long games.
There's some decks hit harder than others. As said, mono-green, mono-black, etb and big artifact mana are the least affected.
Any deck requiring a large board position can never have less than 2-3 mana open and play blue or tons of discard/cap effects. My Ghave runs Sadistic Hypnotist, Mind Slash and a few tutors and still gets hit quite often by it.
Not to mention that it goes in LITERALLY every max-optimized deck running blue. The only reasons to remove it are A)Personal reasons B) Not having one or C) Local banlists. I'm including themes in personal reasons, as well as stuff like G/U Primal Surge decks which wouldn't run. (But are hardly the best available decklist.)
That's not to say I don't use it (too good.) or that I lose to it every time it's played successfully. I just feel blue's already the strongest color and hardly needs this, while a lot of other colors would gain a lot by having it banned. If it was a red card I would like it for example.
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Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
In no conceivable realm does this card meet ANY banning criteria. "Its a strong card, I don't want to play against it" will never be a ban criteria.
I would much rather akroma than C.rift. Akrmoa wipes the board, everyone gets hit. C rift only wipes your opponents and gives you a HUGE advantage. If it was just creatures that is fine, but if you have even ten things returned to your hand, how do you deal with say, having to cast Vigor, seedborn muse, your general, Just heavy cost creatures. Along with your mana rocks and combo pieces. If it was just return all creatures that is fine, but no its "Clean the board and put yourself ahead."
And i have never seen it used to pull a guy a safety net. It usually takes my group 3-4 turns to get back the same board position, granted our stuff is not countered on the way.
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Saying it meets no banning criteria is a gross hyperbole. Let's look at the reasons Emerkul was banned "Very strong." "Can be/is played in almost every deck." "Requires decks to be built with him in mind, limiting construction." were some of the main reasons. Rift is blue-only, but meets all of them.
In a competitive meta, Rift will be in just about every deck. I and many other players need to work hard when building our decks to make it work well vs. rift.
As I said as well, it's not so obscenely broken that it needs a ban ASAP or I think it will kill the format, but it deserves one to free up a deck slot in blue and allow a larger range of non-blue decks to have a chance to be more competitive. (While banning rift won't be enough, it would be a start. I feel EDH could do with color-balancing.)
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUB Cheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
Where exactly are you getting those quotes? Because the reason it was banned is because EDH had turned into a game of who can get Emmy out, and it has VERY narrow answers. Games ended when it landed, C Rift doesn't do that unless the blue player has been building board presence unmolested. You don't have to build a deck with narrow answers to C Rift.
BIG difference.
Well, as has been mentioned, quite a few of us are playing aggro style decks. When the person holding the Cyclonic Rift is dying, they probably have to safety net it or die. As I said, the people in my group who run CR are typically playing combo/control or a really heavy, grindy control and they get focused first. But not because they run Rift, because they're kill priority based on their ability to win quickly or stall the game.
Two ways to recover quickly are to have a low curve, or generate a lot of mana early on (land based). The second doesn't work well when MLD is present, but generally after a rift I can resolve Vexing Shusher (I always tutor for it when there's a blue player), and start rebuilding. If the guy who rifted wants to counter my next spell four times to get rid of it, that's fine. He's down four counters while I'm only down four mana.
I'm not sure what you wanted to hear. :/ Most of us have agreed that we think it's strong but not unbearable to work with, and have told you how we rebuild.
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1. Not hard to play around at all. I have not built any decks around this card and have come back from many rifts to win. My strongest deck against this is Mono-G which abuses ETB effects. It's more effective against my voltron deck, but I'd rather see a rift than a Bane of Progress or even Vandalblast with that deck. If it helps them win on the spot it is part of a win condition. So what? Compare it to something like Craterhoof Behemoth and see which one wins more games on the spot...Cyclonic Rift has never won a game by itself. Chances are, the person that overloaded it is now playing 3v1.
2. If they can counter every spell played in a 4 player game, then I will concede this point. This frankly has never happened and just isn't a real thing.
3. Brainstorm is never a dead card. In fact, this is typically a prerequisite for me adding a card to a deck.
Cyclonic Rift will never be banned and thinking it should shows a lack of understanding the philosophy behind banning cards.
If the blue player casts C rift and then proceeds to sit on their mana for counterspells, then you should:
1) Thank them for not winning the game on the spot
2) Use common sense and not drop big spells when the blue guy is sitting on a ton of mana and just bounced your board back to your hand.
Poor play and whining aren't things that make a card ban-worthy. C rift is strong , but no where near broken or ban-worthy.
But to answer your question, I simply replay whatever was bounced over the next turn or two. It's not like I'm worried about blue's ability to aggro me out in the time it takes to recast my stuff. When someone Cyclonic Rifts me, I pick up all my things and thank my lucky stars it wasn't Akroma's Vengeance or Planar Cleansing or else all of my valuable permanents would be forever lost to me instead of just back in my hand to be replayed at my own convenience.
can you please explain to me what 'overextending' means against cyclonic rift?
Alternatively, you could respond with Fork, Reiterate, or Reverberate and see how they like it.
Then on your turn, you cast a Boseiju'd Wheel of Fortune and laugh like a donkey.
Then it's a good thing Upheaval is banned in Commander, because that's essentially what that is.
@OP: The only times I've ever really been on the receiving end of a Cyclonic Rift have been when I'm playing mono green, so I've usually had enough mana available to replay whatever was bounced to my hand. Which is often pretty handy because replaying a Woodfall Primus isn't the worst thing that could happen to me.
Oh Cyclonic Rift you say? Cool.
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