What is your land percentage? For me 33% (1/3 of the 99) is my proper list. I often cut some lands as well replacing them with mana rocks to free up space for other cards. So my 33% usually ends up being 31% I often get shouted at saying i need more lands. Fine tell me that, but i must ask you, do you feel that 37 is helping you when you draw a land when you already have a lot? Those extra 4 cards could be answers
I play with someone who runs like 35 lands. I troll him a lot, but he nearly never has any land issues. Personally, I always start at 40 lands when I build a deck, then, over time, I remove the lands depending on my curve/average CMC and how many rocks I want.
It also depends on the color. Draw intense colors require less lands to ensure a drop each turn, while white requires more!
I sit at around 38 lands in most of my decks, but I have been thinking of building my next deck with less. Interesting to hear you run 33 successfully, and your logic about the 1/3 (33%) makes a lot of sense.
I'm almost always at 36 lands plus Sol Ring and Mana Crypt for a lot of my decks, but they also include 6-7 green ramp cards to make sure I hit my land drops. For non-green decks, I either include 1-2 more mana rocks, go up to 37-38 lands, or actively reduce my mana curve to compensate.
I tend to keep to higher levels of lands (37 being the lowest and 39 being the highest), but most of my decks are pretty mana intensive and I can't afford to miss a land drop early on.
And then you have Borborygmos, who runs about 50 lands, because I actually want to draw them later on.
I start by assuming 40 lands, then subtract partial lands each time I add a mana rock or a ramp spell. I don't think any of my decks run fewer than 33.
It also depends heavily on the mulligan system you use, since for most decks, the first three lands are far more important than the next three. Partial paris (especially with one free) makes skimping on lands seem much more preferable.
Lazav is at 34 lands with 5 mana rocks. Expedition Map fetches up a land too. Tezzeret can also grab one of my artifact lands for free or one of my rocks.
Usually 35-37. Sometimes it depends on my rocks, sometimes it depends on my curve. Elves for example has 32. Which is insanely low, but it works. Lotsa dorks in that one.
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Major EDH player! Current decks:UUBraids, Waifu | UGZegana | RGWEnchantress Uril, the Miststalker | WBTriad of Fates (new!) | RBGXira Arien Re-dredge-imator (unretired!)
Eladamri | Anowon | Sydri | Melek | Augustin IV | Thelon | Sliver Overlord | Ramirez DePietro
Lyzolda has 32 lands. I keep wondering if I should add more lands, but it works, so...
Galina is 33 lands. The deck curves out so low that I don't find myself in need of more.
Purphoros has 35. A slightly higher curve and a need to hit that 4 mana mark, which it does relatively reliably.
Zegana has 36. While it curves out pretty high, it has a lot of ramp in it fishing out my lands.
Stonebrow also clocks in at 36. While it has less ramp, it relies more on cheat-into-play tricks thus eliminating the need for more.
Oloro has 38. It's my most casual list, and it benefits of having a good supply of mana. There's enough drawpower to dig into my lands as well.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I ran 46 in ashling the pilgrim. Now that it is Godo, I'm down to 40. I've found online that super low mana counts, 35 or less, simply doesn't work unless you curve out at three because it is a truly random shuffler.
I think land count without considering mulligans isn't painting a full picture.
The number if lands is typically a reflection of the rate the deck refills it's hand this typically ends up being around 32-36 lands however I always use a minium of 50 mana sources from cmc 0-2 including land usually more not including cheap tutors which can function as mana. In addition creation effects like exploration while they dint produce mana they will ramp you if your draw power allows you to regroup lands every turn <3 damia.
35 lands plus some number of manipulation (either through ramp, cantrips) works fine for me. Maze of Ith, Vesuva, Cabal Coffers, Arena, and its other ilk shouldn't be treated as lands.
My deck is a control deck, I run 42 land (including hall of the bandit lord for haste) and one mana rock, Darksteel Ingot. I have tons of card draw to smooth it all out (its grixis colors) I also run Trade Routes and Read the Runes turning excess land into card draw mid-late game. Works great, I can honestly say I'm never land screwed and mass LD hurts less (oh I also run an Ivory Tower the pretty from the vault one, to gain extra life off any excess land in my hand, plus anything else I'm holding, and I run land tutors like Lily OTDR & Dreamscape Artist).
I usually try to run 36 but almost never drop below 34. Even if I run a lot of rocks. I have ways of thinning my deck of lands mid to late game but also want to make sure I'm okay early so I think 34-36 is pretty much optimal.
And then you have Borborygmos, who runs about 50 lands, because I actually want to draw them later on.
I would assume that Borborygmos and 60-land Child of Alara would definitely be outliers in the discussion. When each land is also a Lightning Bolt, it makes mana flood a non-issue...
Thinking about this a little more, I also believe that mulligan rules play a lot into the discussion. When you have less strict mulligan rules, you can afford to run slightly less lands. I think that if I had to play with normal Paris mulligans that I would find a way to up my land count to 38 or more plus 4 minimum 2CMC or less accelerators no matter what.
I tend to run 38 lands in all my decks, regardless of color or rock/ramp. Which is strange, because in some deck I run a lot of ramp/rocks, and in others I run very few, but it never seems to affect the speed at which I gain mana or get mana flooded. The only exception is Purphoros, God of the Forge, I run 37 lands (mountains, plus Valakut and Thespian's Stage, and something else or two) but in that deck I get flooded all the time. I run a bunch of cheap rocks and eggs too, and it's possible I don't need them, but then it's always iffy how early I can drop Purphoros. I don't want to cut anything, because I worry about missing my drops, but at the moment it's like 50/50 on whether or not I have a great game and ramp and hit everything need, or just get stuck drawing mountain after mountain. Obviously i use the mountains for Valakut, but at 1 land per turn, on average, it's not super effective.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
It also depends on the color. Draw intense colors require less lands to ensure a drop each turn, while white requires more!
I sit at around 38 lands in most of my decks, but I have been thinking of building my next deck with less. Interesting to hear you run 33 successfully, and your logic about the 1/3 (33%) makes a lot of sense.
Decks:
Casual
R Burn R
EDH
R Godo Voltron R
RUG ETB Overload RUG
BW Clerics Pain and Drain BW
GW Spirits!!! GW
RUG Landfall Silliness RUG
Deveri is 35 lands because it has nothing over 6.
Isperia has a full 40 its a white blue control deck with no mana rocks and no ramp.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
And then you have Borborygmos, who runs about 50 lands, because I actually want to draw them later on.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
It also depends heavily on the mulligan system you use, since for most decks, the first three lands are far more important than the next three. Partial paris (especially with one free) makes skimping on lands seem much more preferable.
That seems ok..I think.
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
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Props to Theismisacrime for the sig! Click for Trade list!
Major EDH player! Current decks: UUBraids, Waifu | UGZegana | RGWEnchantress Uril, the Miststalker | WBTriad of Fates (new!) | RBGXira Arien Re-dredge-imator (unretired!)
Eladamri | Anowon | Sydri | Melek | Augustin IV | Thelon | Sliver Overlord | Ramirez DePietro
Retired! Kangee | Kaalia
Galina is 33 lands. The deck curves out so low that I don't find myself in need of more.
Purphoros has 35. A slightly higher curve and a need to hit that 4 mana mark, which it does relatively reliably.
Zegana has 36. While it curves out pretty high, it has a lot of ramp in it fishing out my lands.
Stonebrow also clocks in at 36. While it has less ramp, it relies more on cheat-into-play tricks thus eliminating the need for more.
Oloro has 38. It's my most casual list, and it benefits of having a good supply of mana. There's enough drawpower to dig into my lands as well.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I think land count without considering mulligans isn't painting a full picture.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
RUG Intet, the Dreamer
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
WRG Mayael the Anima
UUU Jalira, Master Polymorphist
BBB Sherei, Shizo's Caretaker
GGG Yeva, Nature's Herald
GGG Ezuri, the Renegade Leader
Constructing: Karn, Silver Golem - Ephara, God of the Polis
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
I would assume that Borborygmos and 60-land Child of Alara would definitely be outliers in the discussion. When each land is also a Lightning Bolt, it makes mana flood a non-issue...
Thinking about this a little more, I also believe that mulligan rules play a lot into the discussion. When you have less strict mulligan rules, you can afford to run slightly less lands. I think that if I had to play with normal Paris mulligans that I would find a way to up my land count to 38 or more plus 4 minimum 2CMC or less accelerators no matter what.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG