I am a huge fan of Purphoros, God of the Forge. I see a bunch of people take him as a token general. Now that is cool and I respect that. But I want to take the deck in a different direction. I am thinking of playing a big red commander version of him. Any thoughts on what might be some cards to throw in? Thanks everybody!
Typically, it's talking red control. It's just called big because it's not RDW-styled.
I'd go phoenix heavy. They're a way to create some card advantage in a color that's strapped for it, and they reliably trigger Purphoros unless someone wants to nuke the mono-R player's yard. Skarrgan Firebird is a favorite of mine, and it could be solid here. Kuldotha Phoenix is also great for keeping a board presence provided you run mana rocks, and that's almost a given in most mono-R decks. One of the nice things about them is that they play nicely with Wheel of Fortune and friends, which are the most effective card draw in the color.
I'd seriously consider a goblin package too. Goblin Matron, Goblin Recruiter, and (if you've got one) Imperial Recruiter shore up another of red's big weaknesses, lack of tutors. Between the years of goblins and a couple of oddball effects, you can get very varied responses to a number of board states, not to mention a combo kill if that's how you roll. Gaka has a pretty good list of goblins in his Norin primer, and I think it was just posted in the card of the day discussion about Matron.
Speaking of Gaka's Norin list, chaos is another very effective red control strategy. The limited number of targeting cards that you have make Grip of Chaos a ridiculous defensive card, provided you can stand resolving the trigger. Planar Chaos is another powerful effect if you build around it a little (including phoenix helps here). Teferi's Puzzle Box helps disrupt opposing hands, and it and Mindmoil both show you a lot more of your deck than you would see otherwise.
A couple of the planeswalkers are solid too. Koth of the Hammer was a wincon for similarly styled decks a couple years ago in standard, if I recall correctly. He's harder to protect here, but he's reasonable as a ritual/occasional threat and has a ridiculous ultimate. Chandra, Pyromaster is the closest thing to Phyrexian Arena that red decks are likely to see for a while.
In general, I would put some emphasis on hitting your land drops. Red doesn't draw a ton of cards and doesn't ramp, so artifact/land options that tutor up lands can keep you more or less even with the rest of the table over long games. In my Jaya list, I run Crucible of Worlds + fetches, Thawing Glaciers (+ Deserted Temple), Journeyer's Kite, Armillary Sphere, and a couple others. All of them work well with Rings of Brighthearth as well, because that card is crazy in the right deck. While most of those don't ramp you, they do keep you hitting your land drops, which is important if you want the ability to do more than one thing in a turn later in the game. They also help you rebuild if you blow all the lands, which is a great strategy if you and your group are down with it.
The other thing you can do with a bunch of mana is burn people out. Comet Storm is probably the best option, due to instant speed and multiple targets, but Banefire, Devil's Play, and a few others have a lot to recommend them. They're likely to be your most common kill after softening people up with Purphoros. They can also take out problem creatures earlier in the game, which helps you on defense.
Red based control is a ton of fun, but you should expect to have some truly awful games. Sometimes you just don't see the cards you need to get things rolling, and you're going to feel that more when it happens than a lot of other decks. You may have to put a little time into finding a strategy that works and that you enjoy, but it's a blast once you get to that point.
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I was thinking of playing with the phoenixes! I suppose they go rather well with wheel effects too. Im a big fan of goblins, I just don't want to go crazy with them, maybe Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker?I was thinking of playing with cards that can slowly burn the opponent also, such as Obsidian Fireheart and Magmatic Force. I would love to be able to smash face with purphoros also! Those planeswalkers look great.
Would you run rings with just cards that fetch lands from the deck? Is it that good?
What about running all the chandras possible? Do you need a decent spell base to justify running Ablaze, Pyromaster, or Firebrand? Would Masticores be decent with the phoenixes?
I totally agree, I don't want the table to groan when I say Purph is my commander. I love the attack step a little more compared to "Cast tokens and watch everyone's life drop." Granted, that is a superior strategy.
Would you run rings with just cards that fetch lands from the deck? Is it that good?
I probably wouldn't run Rings with nothing to support but land fetches, but look at your post. Out of tbe three cards you mentioned, two have some benefit with Rings. It's not hard to find value with them in just things you would run anyways. I wouldn't build around them, but I would definitely take a look at what's already in the deck and find space if it looked promising.
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What about running all the chandras possible? Do you need a decent spell base to justify running Ablaze, Pyromaster, or Firebrand? Would Masticores be decent with the phoenixes?
I totally agree, I don't want the table to groan when I say Purph is my commander. I love the attack step a little more compared to "Cast tokens and watch everyone's life drop." Granted, that is a superior strategy.
Ablaze is just solid in general. The mini-wheel is a splendid way to ruin something like Praetor's Counsel, and the +1 kills just about every utility creature out there while getting rid of dead cards (Pyroblast for example) or just using with Squee, Goblin Nabob and/or phoenixes. Chandra 1 kills a shocking number of things with her -x since she starts with 6 loyalty for 5 mana. I use(d) it as a counter to Titans when they first came out. Firebrand gets cut because she's just a reusable fork, which is fine, but I've not needed it, and you need to be careful with Pyromaster because you don't want to hit something you can't cast. Pyromaster is best with a Top (duh).
I didn't really think about adding the Firebrand to the deck. I don't know, her -2 seems like it can be handy, but it seems iffy. Any ideas and what possible spells I should play? Kamahl, Pit fighter goes well with the Rings of Brighthearth suggested earlier.
Any other excellent red creatures that I should know about, Molten Primordial maybe? And I really liked the inclusion of Comet Storm, but what other spells should I be looking at?
Also, I am trying to make this deck as flavorful as far as what Purphoros, God of the Forge represents. As far as I can tell all cards suggested are on theme! Suggestions are really great guys!
Weebo, that was a great post and very informative, and I'd like to follow up by mentioning what I consider to be red's Phyrexian Arena that many people overlook. It revolves around goblins, so it's an easy inclusion anyway.
In addition to being spells that stop counters or redirect their card draw to you, several of those are useful to copy your own spells if you spell sling at all. There is also a way to get unlimited mana with Reiterate but I can't remember what the other card is...(edit: Inner Fire but you need like 10 mana and a full grip after casting them for it to loop)
Weebo, that was a great post and very informative, and I'd like to follow up by mentioning what I consider to be red's Phyrexian Arena that many people overlook. It revolves around goblins, so it's an easy inclusion anyway.
In addition to being spells that stop counters or redirect their card draw to you, several of those are useful to copy your own spells if you spell sling at all. There is also a way to get unlimited mana with Reiterate but I can't remember what the other card is...(edit: Inner Fire but you need like 10 mana and a full grip after casting them for it to loop)
How many of those copy effects would you put in one deck?
And what are everyones thoughts on running ritual effects, in place of mana rocks? Is the short term boost in mana not enough compared to the benefits of mana rocks? I have never seen a red deck play without rocks, so it was something that passed my mind.
people seem to forget the other ability of the god of the forge. and that is to give +1/+0 to creatures you control. why not take advantage of that through double strike.
people seem to forget the other ability of the god of the forge. and that is to give +1/+0 to creatures you control. why not take advantage of that through double strike.
Holy smokes, totally forgot about that! Rage Reflection is pretty neat! Thats a pretty cool idea! Any red creatures that love double strike?
How many of those copy effects would you put in one deck?
And what are everyones thoughts on running ritual effects, in place of mana rocks? Is the short term boost in mana not enough compared to the benefits of mana rocks? I have never seen a red deck play without rocks, so it was something that passed my mind.
Copy effects depend on your meta and the rest of your deck. If your opponents run a lot of spells worth copyin or redirecting then run more. If you run a lot of spells worth copying then run more. If it were me the bare minimum I would run would be pretty much all the ones that redirect the target of the original spell. In my meta I'd jam in as many as I could. Also, if I were building Purphoros without focusing on creatures I'd be heavy spell slinger so I'd have a lot of spells of my own I'd want to copy. But that is just how I would build it to perform in my meta.
I'm not really familiar with ritual effects in red. I don't play much red so I'm more familiar with black rituals. I'd probably just go with the standard rocks.
Assuming you're going to be running tokens, Slate of Ancestry and Skullclamp are your best friends in the world. Seriously. You should probably pack a few Wheel of Fortune effects too, just to keep the gas flowing.
As a connoisseur of fun, interesting matches, I still to this day have not been able to craft that "perfect deck"; the deck that I can play and have fun over time, doesn't get boring, but simultaneously is fun to play against. I honestly don't think it exists. It's like a unicorn. A ninja unicorn.
I will be making a deck for each god in Theros, I wanted to start with Purphoros because he is my favorite of the bunch! I was thinking that creatures like Masticore would work great with the phoenixes. Anyone have any success with Masticore and deathouch artifacts?
Assuming you're going to be running tokens, Slate of Ancestry and Skullclamp are your best friends in the world. Seriously. You should probably pack a few Wheel of Fortune effects too, just to keep the gas flowing.
I had thought about the possibility of adding a few token makers that create fire based tokens. Such as Rakka Mar. A friend of mine has a Skullclamp for trade. That card is nutso.
I will be making a deck for each god in Theros, I wanted to start with Purphoros because he is my favorite of the bunch! I was thinking that creatures like Masticore would work great with the phoenixes. Anyone have any success with Masticore and deathouch artifacts?
Assuming you're going to be running tokens, Slate of Ancestry and Skullclamp are your best friends in the world. Seriously. You should probably pack a few Wheel of Fortune effects too, just to keep the gas flowing.
I had thought about the possibility of adding a few token makers that create fire based tokens. Such as Rakka Mar. A friend of mine has a Skullclamp for trade. That card is nutso.
While some of these are fairly specific, it's a good core to get started with. I try to have a well-rounded ability to stop what my opponents are doing while still putting threats on the board. You can easily go more heavily or more lightly on the goblins, it's all up to you and your style.
I didn't end up running all of them but have already gotten great use out of rummaging goblin and squee. Rummaging goblin obviously dies to a stiff breeze so you just need to not walk him into a busy board state that is looking for a wrath, a pinger, etc. He still digs even without squee and most of the goblins wear skullclamp quite well.
Masticore and most of the phoenix are terrible. Masticore requires you to not play your cards so you can discard them to him (without squee or the phoenix) and without huge amounts of mana doesn't do anything. The Phoenix in practice are terrible. The metalcraft one is the strongest and I have argued for the 3 damage wrath one in a token heavy meta but the rest are honestly terrible.
I guess Im trying to go against the grain.I might be wrong but it seems like, in order to have a decent red deck, that one must play goblins. Goblins are cool and all, but I am trying to steer away from goblins all the while still having a somewhat decent deck.
Masticore and most of the phoenix are terrible. Masticore requires you to not play your cards so you can discard them to him (without squee or the phoenix) and without huge amounts of mana doesn't do anything. The Phoenix in practice are terrible. The metalcraft one is the strongest and I have argued for the 3 damage wrath one in a token heavy meta but the rest are honestly terrible.
I don't play any beyond Skarrgan Firebird and Magma Phoenix, though my deck is trying to get them back to hand. Firebird is a solid beater with an insignificant condition and fairly low cost to return, and Magma has no conditions on its return plus a useful other ability. I've shied away from Kuldotha Phoenix and Shard Phoenix in the past because of the upkeep restriction. In the deck the OP is trying to make, I'd probably run Shard, maybe Magma, and the other two would depend on the rest of the deck. I wouldn't even consider any of the remaining ones because I agree that they're terrible.
I guess Im trying to go against the grain.I might be wrong but it seems like, in order to have a decent red deck, that one must play goblins. Goblins are cool and all, but I am trying to steer away from goblins all the while still having a somewhat decent deck.
They're definitely helpful. You can run a deck without them, but a creature based red deck (like anything led by Purphoros) is probably going to be better with the addition of a few of the more powerful ones and some ways to find them.
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Both Shard Phoenix and Magma Phoenix are great little creatures, with the latter being the best one in my opinion for EDH. A lot of times, going to hand is better than going to play, especially in mono-red where your only form of card draw is generally looting.
Here. There are 12 phoenixes in all, but one can only be played in 5 color. Personally, I like the ones that go right to hand for mono red, but that's just me. For Purphoros though, the ones that go to play are good, especially Kuldotha.
Ya I completely understand! Maybe its my heart loving dwarves more than gobbos, despite dwarves being really bad! Someday. I thought dragons, elementals, fire themed, you name it. Goblins are always in the closet staring at me.
I am a huge fan of Purphoros, God of the Forge. I see a bunch of people take him as a token general. Now that is cool and I respect that. But I want to take the deck in a different direction. I am thinking of playing a big red commander version of him. Any thoughts on what might be some cards to throw in? Thanks everybody!
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
Typically, it's talking red control. It's just called big because it's not RDW-styled.
I'd go phoenix heavy. They're a way to create some card advantage in a color that's strapped for it, and they reliably trigger Purphoros unless someone wants to nuke the mono-R player's yard. Skarrgan Firebird is a favorite of mine, and it could be solid here. Kuldotha Phoenix is also great for keeping a board presence provided you run mana rocks, and that's almost a given in most mono-R decks. One of the nice things about them is that they play nicely with Wheel of Fortune and friends, which are the most effective card draw in the color.
I'd seriously consider a goblin package too. Goblin Matron, Goblin Recruiter, and (if you've got one) Imperial Recruiter shore up another of red's big weaknesses, lack of tutors. Between the years of goblins and a couple of oddball effects, you can get very varied responses to a number of board states, not to mention a combo kill if that's how you roll. Gaka has a pretty good list of goblins in his Norin primer, and I think it was just posted in the card of the day discussion about Matron.
Speaking of Gaka's Norin list, chaos is another very effective red control strategy. The limited number of targeting cards that you have make Grip of Chaos a ridiculous defensive card, provided you can stand resolving the trigger. Planar Chaos is another powerful effect if you build around it a little (including phoenix helps here). Teferi's Puzzle Box helps disrupt opposing hands, and it and Mindmoil both show you a lot more of your deck than you would see otherwise.
A couple of the planeswalkers are solid too. Koth of the Hammer was a wincon for similarly styled decks a couple years ago in standard, if I recall correctly. He's harder to protect here, but he's reasonable as a ritual/occasional threat and has a ridiculous ultimate. Chandra, Pyromaster is the closest thing to Phyrexian Arena that red decks are likely to see for a while.
In general, I would put some emphasis on hitting your land drops. Red doesn't draw a ton of cards and doesn't ramp, so artifact/land options that tutor up lands can keep you more or less even with the rest of the table over long games. In my Jaya list, I run Crucible of Worlds + fetches, Thawing Glaciers (+ Deserted Temple), Journeyer's Kite, Armillary Sphere, and a couple others. All of them work well with Rings of Brighthearth as well, because that card is crazy in the right deck. While most of those don't ramp you, they do keep you hitting your land drops, which is important if you want the ability to do more than one thing in a turn later in the game. They also help you rebuild if you blow all the lands, which is a great strategy if you and your group are down with it.
The other thing you can do with a bunch of mana is burn people out. Comet Storm is probably the best option, due to instant speed and multiple targets, but Banefire, Devil's Play, and a few others have a lot to recommend them. They're likely to be your most common kill after softening people up with Purphoros. They can also take out problem creatures earlier in the game, which helps you on defense.
Red based control is a ton of fun, but you should expect to have some truly awful games. Sometimes you just don't see the cards you need to get things rolling, and you're going to feel that more when it happens than a lot of other decks. You may have to put a little time into finding a strategy that works and that you enjoy, but it's a blast once you get to that point.
Would you run rings with just cards that fetch lands from the deck? Is it that good?
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU
I totally agree, I don't want the table to groan when I say Purph is my commander. I love the attack step a little more compared to "Cast tokens and watch everyone's life drop." Granted, that is a superior strategy.
I probably wouldn't run Rings with nothing to support but land fetches, but look at your post. Out of tbe three cards you mentioned, two have some benefit with Rings. It's not hard to find value with them in just things you would run anyways. I wouldn't build around them, but I would definitely take a look at what's already in the deck and find space if it looked promising.
Ablaze is just solid in general. The mini-wheel is a splendid way to ruin something like Praetor's Counsel, and the +1 kills just about every utility creature out there while getting rid of dead cards (Pyroblast for example) or just using with Squee, Goblin Nabob and/or phoenixes. Chandra 1 kills a shocking number of things with her -x since she starts with 6 loyalty for 5 mana. I use(d) it as a counter to Titans when they first came out. Firebrand gets cut because she's just a reusable fork, which is fine, but I've not needed it, and you need to be careful with Pyromaster because you don't want to hit something you can't cast. Pyromaster is best with a Top (duh).
For a fun big red commander that likes to turn sideways, there's always Kamahl, Pit fighter or sister Jeska, Warrior Adept.
For EDH though, the first two Chandras are the best.
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU
Any other excellent red creatures that I should know about, Molten Primordial maybe? And I really liked the inclusion of Comet Storm, but what other spells should I be looking at?
Also, I am trying to make this deck as flavorful as far as what Purphoros, God of the Forge represents. As far as I can tell all cards suggested are on theme! Suggestions are really great guys!
Weebo, that was a great post and very informative, and I'd like to follow up by mentioning what I consider to be red's Phyrexian Arena that many people overlook. It revolves around goblins, so it's an easy inclusion anyway.
First, you need one of these:
Goblin Recruiter
Imperial Recruiter
Goblin Matron
Moggcatcher
The aim is to cast Goblin Recruiter and stack these:
Rummaging Goblin
Squee, Goblin Nabob
These two goblins together allow you to draw an extra card each turn since you can keep discarding Squee.
The best part of this is that you can use the Goblin Recruiter to give you a chain of goblins to draw into and provide you with more card advantage, such as Goblin Welder and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. You can even set up Siege-Gang Commander and Krenko, Mob Boss to help Purphoros, God of the Forge burn for a ton while you spot-remove creatures.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
In addition to being spells that stop counters or redirect their card draw to you, several of those are useful to copy your own spells if you spell sling at all. There is also a way to get unlimited mana with Reiterate but I can't remember what the other card is...(edit: Inner Fire but you need like 10 mana and a full grip after casting them for it to loop)
Also Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon are auto includes in mono red. And Gamble. And Chaos Warp. And probably as many Faithless Looting style cards as possible.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
That is a crazy interaction I have never thought of nor seen before! Have you tried it and has it worked for you?
How many of those copy effects would you put in one deck?
And what are everyones thoughts on running ritual effects, in place of mana rocks? Is the short term boost in mana not enough compared to the benefits of mana rocks? I have never seen a red deck play without rocks, so it was something that passed my mind.
Holy smokes, totally forgot about that! Rage Reflection is pretty neat! Thats a pretty cool idea! Any red creatures that love double strike?
Copy effects depend on your meta and the rest of your deck. If your opponents run a lot of spells worth copyin or redirecting then run more. If you run a lot of spells worth copying then run more. If it were me the bare minimum I would run would be pretty much all the ones that redirect the target of the original spell. In my meta I'd jam in as many as I could. Also, if I were building Purphoros without focusing on creatures I'd be heavy spell slinger so I'd have a lot of spells of my own I'd want to copy. But that is just how I would build it to perform in my meta.
I'm not really familiar with ritual effects in red. I don't play much red so I'm more familiar with black rituals. I'd probably just go with the standard rocks.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
I like Mogis, God of Slaughtera bit more.
I will be making a deck for each god in Theros, I wanted to start with Purphoros because he is my favorite of the bunch! I was thinking that creatures like Masticore would work great with the phoenixes. Anyone have any success with Masticore and deathouch artifacts?
EDIT*
I had thought about the possibility of adding a few token makers that create fire based tokens. Such as Rakka Mar. A friend of mine has a Skullclamp for trade. That card is nutso.
Make sure you run a Squee, Goblin Nabob so you have discard for Masticore!
I didn't end up running all of them but have already gotten great use out of rummaging goblin and squee. Rummaging goblin obviously dies to a stiff breeze so you just need to not walk him into a busy board state that is looking for a wrath, a pinger, etc. He still digs even without squee and most of the goblins wear skullclamp quite well.
For mono red draw I use wheel of fortune and reforge the soul in combination with recoup and past in flames since the second two enable reusing other utility. I also run memory jar, Staff of nin, mind's eye, and skullclamp in combination with trash for treasure, trading post, and goblin welder. I still occasionally run out of cards.
Masticore and most of the phoenix are terrible. Masticore requires you to not play your cards so you can discard them to him (without squee or the phoenix) and without huge amounts of mana doesn't do anything. The Phoenix in practice are terrible. The metalcraft one is the strongest and I have argued for the 3 damage wrath one in a token heavy meta but the rest are honestly terrible.
I don't play any beyond Skarrgan Firebird and Magma Phoenix, though my deck is trying to get them back to hand. Firebird is a solid beater with an insignificant condition and fairly low cost to return, and Magma has no conditions on its return plus a useful other ability. I've shied away from Kuldotha Phoenix and Shard Phoenix in the past because of the upkeep restriction. In the deck the OP is trying to make, I'd probably run Shard, maybe Magma, and the other two would depend on the rest of the deck. I wouldn't even consider any of the remaining ones because I agree that they're terrible.
They're definitely helpful. You can run a deck without them, but a creature based red deck (like anything led by Purphoros) is probably going to be better with the addition of a few of the more powerful ones and some ways to find them.
Here. There are 12 phoenixes in all, but one can only be played in 5 color. Personally, I like the ones that go right to hand for mono red, but that's just me. For Purphoros though, the ones that go to play are good, especially Kuldotha.
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU
EDIT* Is Grip of Chaos a good card?