There has been some debate on this topic before, and I'd like to reignite it. We all know the hybrid mana cards, for those who don't know, cards like Overbeing of Myth or Gleancrawler. Both of which you could technically play by using nothing but basic Forests, yet they aren't legal in anything but their specific dual combination.
Personally, I think this rule is, bluntly put, wrong.
Hybrid mana was created to allow cards to be ran in mono-color decks of both kinds, NOT to be tied exclusively to multi-color decks. I think that by taking down that restriction, there are a bunch of fun tricks opened up for various decks. The Shadowmoor Spirit Avatar cycle is one of the more stand-out examples, but there are other cards as well that would be interesting to experiment with in more then their respective dual-color combo (For example, my Stonebrow list would love to see Gleancrawler in the list).
Now, I understand that one might be a bit iffy about this given Phyrexian mana or the 2/R kind of cards like Flame Javelin. My stance here is simple - Phyrexian mana is still colored mana symbols, so they stay as they are. The 2/split ones, that would be fun to debate. I don't think any of them are inherintly broken. Sure, all decks would get access to a 6-mana-tutor...but they already have by virtue of certain artifacts. Therefore, I'd like to keep the debate mostly focused on the dual-colored-yet-intended-for-monocolor Hybrid Mana costs.
I'd also LOVE to get a response from the RC on this, because this seems to me a change that would only be for the better of Commander, but if they have a good argument as to why not, I'd love to hear it.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Now when it comes to Hybrid cards I believe it is half and half with me. Now with cards like Boros Reckoner and most of the new hybrids it has been explained that these could be easily placed in one or the other colors and don't share traits specific of the color combination. The problem I have with that though are some of the older hybrids, specifically lorwyn-shadowmoor ones tend to stretch the color pie ALOT when you consider if their ability could exist in only one of the colors.
Examples of this are Demigod of Revenge and Vexing Shusher. The best way to honestly analyze from a flavor standpoint that these colors show say one of the colors identities is to ask, could this color do this by itself. Now I am not saying that we should do this by a case by case basis but maybe it gives us a glimpse of why the hyrbid rule is like this.
Demigod of revenge, 5/4 flying haste looking at just those stats it looks very red but when you look at its ability to reanimate all other demigods it looks very black, here in is the problem I believe, some of these hyrbid cards can't be done by just one of the colors. Black doesn't normally have haste especially with a flyer, most of black's flyers are small dudes like harpies or vampires or big demons, but never haste (without conditions). Red doesn't typically get any reanimation, save for some artifact reanimation here and there. Now there are always exceptions to these rules especially with early magic.
Vexing Shusher is another example of a hybrid, but really just a multi-colored card when it comes to flavor and abilities. A 2/2 uncounterable dude is very Green, giving uncountability to creatures is something Green does, very often. Uncounterable spells like instants and especially sorceries is something red does A LOT. Blending those two abilities together giving a creature that can't be countered and makes any spell uncounterable isn't very green or red but is indeed very green/red. Furthermore the shusher can make any spell uncounterable, creature, artifact, planeswalker, instant, sorcery, enchantment.
This is the only real reason I feel that hyrbid rule stands and works. I have heard a few designers state they don't agree with the hybrid rule because hyrbid cards are suppose to be something either color could do easily but doesn't REQUIRE both colors to be true. This philosophy I feel is true for the new hybrids. Deathrite Shaman despite its abilities invoking color identity does something that both green and black do quite often, manipulate and hate on graveyards. Green cares about creatures and life the most, and black uses instants and sorceries and life loss the most (typically). Now this isn't always true and you can probably argue otherwise but I think it mostly stands true for most of the newer hybrids.
So overall I deal with the hybrid rule only because of these shady areas. I like the flavor behind building a deck and a commander who can only use stuff that is typical of them. If that makes sense?
Hybrid cards are still the same as Gold cards despite having essentially an alternative casting cost. They are ALWAYS BOTH of it's colors regardless of what mana was used to cast them. They are multicolor cards, and therefore in EDH, they require you to run a multicolor deck with the included colors.
Except that from a flavor perspective, they're not the same as gold cards at all. The original idea behind the color identity is flavor. And whereas traditional multicolored cards combine aspects from their colors color pie, a hybrid card takes pieces of the color pie that's shared by both colors. Therefor there'd be no flavor reason for a commander to 'hate' those spells.
"Flavor perspective" maybe, but when it comes to the abilities associated with specific colors the hybrid cards have aspects associated with BOTH of their colors and do not inherently stick to mechanics that are inherent to both colors. This, in my opinion, is why the RC's decision makes sense. WotC is not always strict in its adherence to the color wheel and associated effects but they do attempt to keep exceptions a rarity. Adding full access to these cards does substantially increase the reach of some colors outside of their normal abilities. The OP sees this as a boon, the RC sees this as a bust - but both seem to acknowledge that it is a substantive distinction.
I'd also LOVE to get a response from the RC on this, because this seems to me a change that would only be for the better of Commander, but if they have a good argument as to why not, I'd love to hear it.
It pretty much boils down(my interpretation of the thread) to the RC thinking that flavor is worth enough to not allow hybrid.
I really enjoy the restriction, and if people really want to run certain hybrid cards they need to pick an appropriate Commander.
With hybrids that include colorless mana it just makes color identity not mean nearly as much if hybrids are allowed.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
The problem with that conversation on the EDH Main Site is that it quickly devolves in a debate about the Fetches, which I ain't touching with a ten-foot pole.
Flavor sometimes takes a backseat to game mechanics, I'd think. Intent of design and all that. Though Yoishan does make a few great points there which are hard to argue.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Now when it comes to Hybrid cards I believe it is half and half with me. Now with cards like Boros Reckoner and most of the new hybrids it has been explained that these could be easily placed in one or the other colors and don't share traits specific of the color combination. The problem I have with that though are some of the older hybrids, specifically lorwyn-shadowmoor ones tend to stretch the color pie ALOT when you consider if their ability could exist in only one of the colors.
Examples of this are Demigod of Revenge and Vexing Shusher. The best way to honestly analyze from a flavor standpoint that these colors show say one of the colors identities is to ask, could this color do this by itself. Now I am not saying that we should do this by a case by case basis but maybe it gives us a glimpse of why the hyrbid rule is like this.
Demigod of revenge, 5/4 flying haste looking at just those stats it looks very red but when you look at its ability to reanimate all other demigods it looks very black, here in is the problem I believe, some of these hyrbid cards can't be done by just one of the colors. Black doesn't normally have haste especially with a flyer, most of black's flyers are small dudes like harpies or vampires or big demons, but never haste (without conditions). Red doesn't typically get any reanimation, save for some artifact reanimation here and there. Now there are always exceptions to these rules especially with early magic.
Vexing Shusher is another example of a hybrid, but really just a multi-colored card when it comes to flavor and abilities. A 2/2 uncounterable dude is very Green, giving uncountability to creatures is something Green does, very often. Uncounterable spells like instants and especially sorceries is something red does A LOT. Blending those two abilities together giving a creature that can't be countered and makes any spell uncounterable isn't very green or red but is indeed very green/red. Furthermore the shusher can make any spell uncounterable, creature, artifact, planeswalker, instant, sorcery, enchantment.
This is the only real reason I feel that hyrbid rule stands and works. I have heard a few designers state they don't agree with the hybrid rule because hyrbid cards are suppose to be something either color could do easily but doesn't REQUIRE both colors to be true. This philosophy I feel is true for the new hybrids. Deathrite Shaman despite its abilities invoking color identity does something that both green and black do quite often, manipulate and hate on graveyards. Green cares about creatures and life the most, and black uses instants and sorceries and life loss the most (typically). Now this isn't always true and you can probably argue otherwise but I think it mostly stands true for most of the newer hybrids.
So overall I deal with the hybrid rule only because of these shady areas. I like the flavor behind building a deck and a commander who can only use stuff that is typical of them. If that makes sense?
Deathrite Shaman is different, though, as it has colored mana activated abilities as well. As to the OP, I'd be all for letting the hybrid cards count as either color exclusively, so long as they aren't like Deathrite Shaman and have colored mana exclusive abilities in their rules text.
Now when it comes to Hybrid cards I believe it is half and half with me. Now with cards like Boros Reckoner and most of the new hybrids it has been explained that these could be easily placed in one or the other colors and don't share traits specific of the color combination. The problem I have with that though are some of the older hybrids, specifically lorwyn-shadowmoor ones tend to stretch the color pie ALOT when you consider if their ability could exist in only one of the colors.
Examples of this are Demigod of Revenge and Vexing Shusher. The best way to honestly analyze from a flavor standpoint that these colors show say one of the colors identities is to ask, could this color do this by itself. Now I am not saying that we should do this by a case by case basis but maybe it gives us a glimpse of why the hyrbid rule is like this.
Demigod of revenge, 5/4 flying haste looking at just those stats it looks very red but when you look at its ability to reanimate all other demigods it looks very black, here in is the problem I believe, some of these hyrbid cards can't be done by just one of the colors. Black doesn't normally have haste especially with a flyer, most of black's flyers are small dudes like harpies or vampires or big demons, but never haste (without conditions). Red doesn't typically get any reanimation, save for some artifact reanimation here and there. Now there are always exceptions to these rules especially with early magic.
Vexing Shusher is another example of a hybrid, but really just a multi-colored card when it comes to flavor and abilities. A 2/2 uncounterable dude is very Green, giving uncountability to creatures is something Green does, very often. Uncounterable spells like instants and especially sorceries is something red does A LOT. Blending those two abilities together giving a creature that can't be countered and makes any spell uncounterable isn't very green or red but is indeed very green/red. Furthermore the shusher can make any spell uncounterable, creature, artifact, planeswalker, instant, sorcery, enchantment.
This is the only real reason I feel that hyrbid rule stands and works. I have heard a few designers state they don't agree with the hybrid rule because hyrbid cards are suppose to be something either color could do easily but doesn't REQUIRE both colors to be true. This philosophy I feel is true for the new hybrids. Deathrite Shaman despite its abilities invoking color identity does something that both green and black do quite often, manipulate and hate on graveyards. Green cares about creatures and life the most, and black uses instants and sorceries and life loss the most (typically). Now this isn't always true and you can probably argue otherwise but I think it mostly stands true for most of the newer hybrids.
So overall I deal with the hybrid rule only because of these shady areas. I like the flavor behind building a deck and a commander who can only use stuff that is typical of them. If that makes sense?
Deathrite Shaman is different, though, as it has colored mana activated abilities as well. As to the OP, I'd be all for letting the hybrid cards count as either color exclusively, so long as they aren't like Deathrite Shaman and have colored mana exclusive abilities in their rules text.
I mentioned that in my original post. I was more referring to the fact that the color abilities aside most of the newer hybrids aren't follow the newer philosophy of doing things that either color could do without stretching of color pies.
Well, I wrote up a long post about it, but it was just me reiterating things that I've posted many times in the past. So here's a summary. Rules 3 and 4 overlap and are largely redundant. I would be okay with either going away and getting rid of rule 3 would allow hybrids to be played which is the point of this thread. I have two major problems with rule 3. Rule 3 exists to enforce flavor; however it also creates situations where cards cannot be included in decks where they are flavorful. I find this deficiency to be unacceptable since flavor is the reason behind the rule in the first place. The second problem is that rule 3 is based upon templating. This means that wizards can print functionally identical cards that would not be allowed in the same deck.
For example:
Bant Bear A 1G
Creature - Bear
You may only spend only W, U, G, or colorless mana to cast Bant Bear A
2/2
and
Bant Bear B 1G
Creature - Bear
You may not spend B or R mana to cast Bant Bear B
So because of these reasons, I would be perfectly happy to see Rule 3 removed. Rule 4 still imposes heavy restrictions on deck building. Sure it would allow the phyrexian mana cards and 2 mana hybrid cards to be played in off color decks, but so be it.
I suppose a good way to put it is that I'd rather have some unflavorful cards allowed along with all flavorful cards rather than excluding some flavorful cards along with the unflavorful ones. Also let's face it, there are plenty of unflavorful cards that can be played even with rule 3 in place as it currently is.
Personally, I think the rules of Commander are set in stone at this point. That said, I take the RC's encouragement of house rules to heart and let anyone who wants to run hybrids do so, using this rule (replaces rule #3):
Alternative Hybrid Color-Identity Rule:
Decks may only include cards whose colored mana symbols contain at least 1 color from their commander's color identity.
(A card's color identity includes the color all mana symbols on it except for those in reminder text.)
I hope those are only cards that you've heard people call broken and not cards you think would be broken in mono or off color decks. They wouldn't be. Most the best ones listed only see marginal play in the colors they're allowed in.
Personally, I think the rules of Commander are set in stone at this point. That said, I take the RC's encouragement of house rules to heart and let anyone who wants to run hybrids do so, using this rule (replaces rule #3):
Alternative Hybrid Color-Identity Rule:
Decks may only include cards whose colored mana symbols contain at least 1 color from their commander's color identity.
(A card's color identity includes the color all mana symbols on it except for those in reminder text.)
It's never too late to make changes. It will get harder to make the changes as time goes on but never impossible or unreasonable.
Personally I think hybrid mana should be allowed to be used in any deck were one color is already viable. Hybrid mana is an either/or for casting not both that's well established. The main front of resistance to the change is that people refuse to accept that all hybrid cards are capable of being reprinted at it's prohibited cost as a mono color card.
I'm all for house rules that supports hybrid mana changes but honestly don't think that they should have to be house rules. I do like the suggested rules you provided though. They solve most of the problems people have with hybrid mana in commander games.
I personally don't mind them as they stand. Mono G really does not need Spitting Image, as it would give GB, GW, and GR access to a clone effect and cloning is specifically supposed to be blue, save for a few weird red ones that die at eot.
I would like to see the unlocking of Phyrexian mana cards though. I kinda contradict my previous statement saying this, I know, but giving Tezzeret's Gambit and Dismember gives glimmers of hope to other parts of the color pie at a cost. Birthing Pod would be a staple in a lot more decks, yes, but outside of G it costs health every time and that really stacks a toll quickly.
I personally don't mind them as they stand. Mono G really does not need Spitting Image, as it would give GB, GW, and GR access to a clone effect and cloning is specifically supposed to be blue, save for a few weird red ones that die at eot.
Agreed
I would like to see the unlocking of Phyrexian mana cards though. I kinda contradict my previous statement saying this, I know, but giving Tezzeret's Gambit and Dismember gives glimmers of hope to other parts of the color pie at a cost. Birthing Pod would be a staple in a lot more decks, yes, but outside of G it costs health every time and that really stacks a toll quickly.
I think this would be considered a lot less than hybrid. Dismember in mono-blue is by far worse flavor-wise than spitting image in mono green IMO.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Personally I think hybrid mana should be allowed to be used in any deck were one color is already viable. Hybrid mana is an either/or for casting not both that's well established.
This is just plain wrong in every level. According to the EDH rules and mtg comprehensive rules, hybrid cards are always all of it's colors, so when it comes to the EDH rule about color identity, they are the same as multicolor cards despite having an alternative casting cost. You are just "cherry picking" here, since if only 1 color makes that card viable in a offcolor deck, then there is no real reason to not allow multicolor cards like the ones in shards of alara for example... of course you couldn't cast them in a mono colored deck, unless you play reanimator, so the casting cost doesn't matter.
This is beyond unproductive to discussion. Everyone here understands that technically hybrid cards are both colors. You've responded twice in this thread to a fictitious argument that hybrids should be allowed within the current rules, which absolutely no one so far has been arguing. I implore you to stop reminding us of why they aren't allowed currently and join in the discussion of if they should be allowed.
What panda is saying, and you seem to be missing, is that hybrids are conceptually supposed to be "either/or". The whole reason hybrids exist is to create cards that could be played in either color. We aren't talking about what color the game sees them as, we all got over that a long time ago, the argument in favor of hybrids is one based on hybrids functionally being a case of "either/or".
Anyway, remedial argumentation aside, my thoughts on the subject can be summarized like so: If we're so afraid of allowing hybrids for color pie reasons, why should we allow Dark Ritual or Prodigal Sorcerer? Until the format starts regulating the color pie more stringently, I'll never have any respect for that argument.
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Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
Oh your absolutely right. The flavor reasons would e horrible, but during scars standard the coolest part about it was that the colors got skewed a bit and made for interesting play and deck building. If the rest of scars wasn't lol broken it might have been way more fun.
A lot of time shifted cards did this top. Is Harmonize really in flavor all that much for green? They shifted the name so it sounds more green but we all know it's just Concentrate. I think Damnation is easily the most on flavor still even after shifting.
But you get my point. It'd be a fun house rule to run with for a week or two, experiment around with and see how it goes. Kinda like ignoring the banlist for a week or something to let the silliness ensue then go back to good rcbanlist rules.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Hybrid cards are multiple colors at all times. It seems akin to letting a monoblack deck run Iona, Shield of Emeria because it could Reanimate it.
I would be okay with this. We already allow plenty of unflavorful card choices under the current rules while also disallowing some flavorful ones. My stance is that it's better to allow all the flavorful choices even if it means that we allow some more unflavorful ones. After all, the current line where we draw the flavor is based upon templating. I for one hope that wizards forces the issue. They certainly could have with the extort mechanic, but decided against it.
I would be okay with this. We already allow plenty of unflavorful card choices under the current rules while also disallowing some flavorful ones. My stance is that it's better to allow all the flavorful choices even if it means that we allow some more unflavorful ones. After all, the current line where we draw the flavor is based upon templating. I for one hope that wizards forces the issue. They certainly could have with the extort mechanic, but decided against it.
How would you decide to allow "all the flavorful choices" without removing Color Identity?
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Personally I think hybrid mana should be allowed to be used in any deck were one color is already viable. Hybrid mana is an either/or for casting not both that's well established.
This is just plain wrong in every level. According to the EDH rules and mtg comprehensive rules, hybrid cards are always all of it's colors, so when it comes to the EDH rule about color identity, they are the same as multicolor cards despite having an alternative casting cost. You are just "cherry picking" here, since if only 1 color makes that card viable in a offcolor deck, then there is no real reason to not allow multicolor cards like the ones in shards of alara for example... of course you couldn't cast them in a mono colored deck, unless you play reanimator, so the casting cost doesn't matter.
This is beyond unproductive to discussion. Everyone here understands that technically hybrid cards are both colors. You've responded twice in this thread to a fictitious argument that hybrids should be allowed within the current rules, which absolutely no one so far has been arguing. I implore you to stop reminding us of why they aren't allowed currently and join in the discussion of if they should be allowed.
What panda is saying, and you seem to be missing, is that hybrids are conceptually supposed to be "either/or". The whole reason hybrids exist is to create cards that could be played in either color. We aren't talking about what color the game sees them as, we all got over that a long time ago, the argument in favor of hybrids is one based on hybrids functionally being a case of "either/or".
Anyway, remedial argumentation aside, my thoughts on the subject can be summarized like so: If we're so afraid of allowing hybrids for color pie reasons, why should we allow Dark Ritual or Prodigal Sorcerer? Until the format starts regulating the color pie more stringently, I'll never have any respect for that argument.
I feel like your own argument is a bit flawed. Both of the examples you brought up Dark Ritual and Prodigal Sorcerer are not alone examples of those mechanics in those sets nor were they abandoned when the color pie was more enforced in later sets.
Blue is obviously not primary or secondary in dealing damage, but it is part of their color pie, even if it is rarely. Doing a gatherer search you can come up with roughly 30 examples of blue dealing direct damage. While most of these ARE older cards there are quite a few newer examples (modern), such as Fledgling Mawcor and are roughly 18 or 19 examples of blue creatures being able to do this. Flavor wise it is their mastery of magic and the arcane that allow them to "bend" the rules a bit. I will not deny this is not a common treat but nor would I say it is incredibly farfetched. Some of the creatures are considered "multi-colored" in the purpose of color identity but I would say over half aren't. Some are even example of "pisionic" creatures which can deal damage at the cost of hurting themselves.
Black's argument I would say is even sillier. Black cares about mana, I would say it is secondary for mana generation along with red, primary being green. Though Wizards has clearly chosen to move rituals out of black, for the most part, that isn't true completely and black has plenty of cards that give a huge burst of mana for a short time, especially when it involves sac creatures to fuel their "rituals". A rough gatherer search comes up with 40 different cards that black uses to generate mana, many of which that do appear in "newer" sets like Time Sprawl and Torment where the color pies were more defined at least compared to earlier magic. I wouldn't deny that typically black doesn't accomplish this without paying some type of price, in retrospec I am sure Dark Ritual doesn't convey the flavor of greatness at any cost, like cards like Promise of power in the respect that black can have an incredibly flexible color pie if they sacrifice a creature, land, or pay some life. I don't fee this invalidates previous arguments though.
Early magic was rough, especially when it comes down to flavor. If a rule is made to try and capture flavor, in a card game, or any game, it is never going to be 100% accurate. Sometimes mechanics and balance can interfere or interrupt flavor in card design.
Oh your absolutely right. The flavor reasons would e horrible, but during scars standard the coolest part about it was that the colors got skewed a bit and made for interesting play and deck building. If the rest of scars wasn't lol broken it might have been way more fun.
A lot of time shifted cards did this top. Is Harmonize really in flavor all that much for green? They shifted the name so it sounds more green but we all know it's just Concentrate. I think Damnation is easily the most on flavor still even after shifting.
But you get my point. It'd be a fun house rule to run with for a week or two, experiment around with and see how it goes. Kinda like ignoring the banlist for a week or something to let the silliness ensue then go back to good rcbanlist rules.
Harmonize I feel isn't very farfetched either. It is spot on for flavor, you are harnessing mana from the land to communicate with nature or through mediation to receive this knowledge. Considering Green is secondary, with black, in the color pie to receive card draw I don't see that as much of a stretch. Many many green cards generate card advantage, though this is closely tied to flavor and mechanics in green. Green cares about lands and creatures mostly, so many of their card advantage abilities reflect this Mulch and Commune with Nature are good examples of this, even if its not "drawing" while cards like Regal Force provide straight card drawing without being specific on type, though it has requirements to meet. Planar Chaos was meant to be a set that delved into flavor if the color pie was envisioned slightly different, but not completely alien. Many of these cards fit flavor perfectly Damnation being one of them as you mentioned. Though it wasn't common for black to have boardwipes very often, or for so cheap. It was later allowed black to be a stronger board wipe color as it leeched in later in different cards like Life's Finale.
In conclusion I just feel like people try to seek counter arguments using whatever they can find. No argument is ironclad and that is why in my first post I said you should look at "current" flavor of the color pie, I stated out many magic designers, including Maro didn't agree with the hybrid restriction in EDH, but when you get cards like Spitting Image or Dominus of Fealty or Drain the Well or even Sygg, River Cutthroat . Many of these cards work just fine in one of their colors as a mono but not very well in mono of the other or are weird combinations of their color pies. Green getting clone of anything and a token? Blue gaining control of something and giving haste for a turn? Green being able to destroy a land? Blue drawing cards based on suffering? Some of these cards honestly feel like they should be straight multicolored not hybrid based on their abilities.
How would you decide to allow "all the flavorful choices" without removing Color Identity?
To put it simply, I wouldn't. I know that I'm in the extreme minority when it comes to suggesting that rule 3 be removed, but all the suggestions of tweaking rule 3 to accommodate exceptions such as hybrid mana are just band-aid solutions to what I see as a major deficiency. So for me, removing it entirely is the best solution. People will still be restricted in what they can cast because of rule 4.
i like it the way it is. If you play card that can count as a green permanent or a green spell in a Red and black deck with a red/black general it shouldn't be in there. Its EDH and those are the rules that make EDH so strategic and flavorful (that you can only play the colors of your general). If you don't like those restrictions to EDH then just play 100 card singleton with no general and don't play EDH
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Thank you Theismisacrime @ HotP Studios for the great sig!
Personally, I think this rule is, bluntly put, wrong.
Hybrid mana was created to allow cards to be ran in mono-color decks of both kinds, NOT to be tied exclusively to multi-color decks. I think that by taking down that restriction, there are a bunch of fun tricks opened up for various decks. The Shadowmoor Spirit Avatar cycle is one of the more stand-out examples, but there are other cards as well that would be interesting to experiment with in more then their respective dual-color combo (For example, my Stonebrow list would love to see Gleancrawler in the list).
Now, I understand that one might be a bit iffy about this given Phyrexian mana or the 2/R kind of cards like Flame Javelin. My stance here is simple - Phyrexian mana is still colored mana symbols, so they stay as they are. The 2/split ones, that would be fun to debate. I don't think any of them are inherintly broken. Sure, all decks would get access to a 6-mana-tutor...but they already have by virtue of certain artifacts. Therefore, I'd like to keep the debate mostly focused on the dual-colored-yet-intended-for-monocolor Hybrid Mana costs.
I'd also LOVE to get a response from the RC on this, because this seems to me a change that would only be for the better of Commander, but if they have a good argument as to why not, I'd love to hear it.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
/mic-drop
GGG [Primer] Omnath, Big Green Beatstick Machine GGG
Examples of this are Demigod of Revenge and Vexing Shusher. The best way to honestly analyze from a flavor standpoint that these colors show say one of the colors identities is to ask, could this color do this by itself. Now I am not saying that we should do this by a case by case basis but maybe it gives us a glimpse of why the hyrbid rule is like this.
Demigod of revenge, 5/4 flying haste looking at just those stats it looks very red but when you look at its ability to reanimate all other demigods it looks very black, here in is the problem I believe, some of these hyrbid cards can't be done by just one of the colors. Black doesn't normally have haste especially with a flyer, most of black's flyers are small dudes like harpies or vampires or big demons, but never haste (without conditions). Red doesn't typically get any reanimation, save for some artifact reanimation here and there. Now there are always exceptions to these rules especially with early magic.
Vexing Shusher is another example of a hybrid, but really just a multi-colored card when it comes to flavor and abilities. A 2/2 uncounterable dude is very Green, giving uncountability to creatures is something Green does, very often. Uncounterable spells like instants and especially sorceries is something red does A LOT. Blending those two abilities together giving a creature that can't be countered and makes any spell uncounterable isn't very green or red but is indeed very green/red. Furthermore the shusher can make any spell uncounterable, creature, artifact, planeswalker, instant, sorcery, enchantment.
This is the only real reason I feel that hyrbid rule stands and works. I have heard a few designers state they don't agree with the hybrid rule because hyrbid cards are suppose to be something either color could do easily but doesn't REQUIRE both colors to be true. This philosophy I feel is true for the new hybrids. Deathrite Shaman despite its abilities invoking color identity does something that both green and black do quite often, manipulate and hate on graveyards. Green cares about creatures and life the most, and black uses instants and sorceries and life loss the most (typically). Now this isn't always true and you can probably argue otherwise but I think it mostly stands true for most of the newer hybrids.
So overall I deal with the hybrid rule only because of these shady areas. I like the flavor behind building a deck and a commander who can only use stuff that is typical of them. If that makes sense?
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, Faith & Wrath (Control)
Jarad, Life & Death (Reanimator)
Merieke, Seduction & Obedience (Control/Steals)
Intet, Dreamworld (Aggro/Control)
Rith, Predators (Aggro)
"Flavor perspective" maybe, but when it comes to the abilities associated with specific colors the hybrid cards have aspects associated with BOTH of their colors and do not inherently stick to mechanics that are inherent to both colors. This, in my opinion, is why the RC's decision makes sense. WotC is not always strict in its adherence to the color wheel and associated effects but they do attempt to keep exceptions a rarity. Adding full access to these cards does substantially increase the reach of some colors outside of their normal abilities. The OP sees this as a boon, the RC sees this as a bust - but both seem to acknowledge that it is a substantive distinction.
It pretty much boils down(my interpretation of the thread) to the RC thinking that flavor is worth enough to not allow hybrid.
I really enjoy the restriction, and if people really want to run certain hybrid cards they need to pick an appropriate Commander.
With hybrids that include colorless mana it just makes color identity not mean nearly as much if hybrids are allowed.
Flavor sometimes takes a backseat to game mechanics, I'd think. Intent of design and all that. Though Yoishan does make a few great points there which are hard to argue.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Deathrite Shaman is different, though, as it has colored mana activated abilities as well. As to the OP, I'd be all for letting the hybrid cards count as either color exclusively, so long as they aren't like Deathrite Shaman and have colored mana exclusive abilities in their rules text.
I mentioned that in my original post. I was more referring to the fact that the color abilities aside most of the newer hybrids aren't follow the newer philosophy of doing things that either color could do without stretching of color pies.
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, Faith & Wrath (Control)
Jarad, Life & Death (Reanimator)
Merieke, Seduction & Obedience (Control/Steals)
Intet, Dreamworld (Aggro/Control)
Rith, Predators (Aggro)
For example:
Bant Bear A 1G
Creature - Bear
You may only spend only W, U, G, or colorless mana to cast Bant Bear A
2/2
and
Bant Bear B 1G
Creature - Bear
You may not spend B or R mana to cast Bant Bear B
So because of these reasons, I would be perfectly happy to see Rule 3 removed. Rule 4 still imposes heavy restrictions on deck building. Sure it would allow the phyrexian mana cards and 2 mana hybrid cards to be played in off color decks, but so be it.
I suppose a good way to put it is that I'd rather have some unflavorful cards allowed along with all flavorful cards rather than excluding some flavorful cards along with the unflavorful ones. Also let's face it, there are plenty of unflavorful cards that can be played even with rule 3 in place as it currently is.
Devon of the RC (obsidian dice on mtgsalvation) makes a few comments against unrestricting hybrids in the thread mentioned in the OP.
Here's the announcement by Genomancer regarding hybrids on mtgcommander: http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=511
Here are the cards I've heard would become broken:
and the Lieges
Personally, I think the rules of Commander are set in stone at this point. That said, I take the RC's encouragement of house rules to heart and let anyone who wants to run hybrids do so, using this rule (replaces rule #3):
Decks may only include cards whose colored mana symbols contain at least 1 color from their commander's color identity.
(A card's color identity includes the color all mana symbols on it except for those in reminder text.)
This doesn't allow stuff like Beseech the Queen or Birthing Pod in a Kiki-Jiki deck however. Neither of them are wholly useable with just red mana.
I hope those are only cards that you've heard people call broken and not cards you think would be broken in mono or off color decks. They wouldn't be. Most the best ones listed only see marginal play in the colors they're allowed in.
It's never too late to make changes. It will get harder to make the changes as time goes on but never impossible or unreasonable.
Personally I think hybrid mana should be allowed to be used in any deck were one color is already viable. Hybrid mana is an either/or for casting not both that's well established. The main front of resistance to the change is that people refuse to accept that all hybrid cards are capable of being reprinted at it's prohibited cost as a mono color card.
I'm all for house rules that supports hybrid mana changes but honestly don't think that they should have to be house rules. I do like the suggested rules you provided though. They solve most of the problems people have with hybrid mana in commander games.
I would like to see the unlocking of Phyrexian mana cards though. I kinda contradict my previous statement saying this, I know, but giving Tezzeret's Gambit and Dismember gives glimmers of hope to other parts of the color pie at a cost. Birthing Pod would be a staple in a lot more decks, yes, but outside of G it costs health every time and that really stacks a toll quickly.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
I think this would be considered a lot less than hybrid. Dismember in mono-blue is by far worse flavor-wise than spitting image in mono green IMO.
Roon of the Pod People (Roon of the Hidden Realm)
Sydri, Super Genius (Sydri, Galvanic Genius)
Marchesa, the Black Rose
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Retired:
Grimgrin's Corpse-Beats (Grimgrin, Corpse-Born) | Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge | Varolz, the Scar-Striped (1v1) | Glissa, the Traitor
This is beyond unproductive to discussion. Everyone here understands that technically hybrid cards are both colors. You've responded twice in this thread to a fictitious argument that hybrids should be allowed within the current rules, which absolutely no one so far has been arguing. I implore you to stop reminding us of why they aren't allowed currently and join in the discussion of if they should be allowed.
What panda is saying, and you seem to be missing, is that hybrids are conceptually supposed to be "either/or". The whole reason hybrids exist is to create cards that could be played in either color. We aren't talking about what color the game sees them as, we all got over that a long time ago, the argument in favor of hybrids is one based on hybrids functionally being a case of "either/or".
Anyway, remedial argumentation aside, my thoughts on the subject can be summarized like so: If we're so afraid of allowing hybrids for color pie reasons, why should we allow Dark Ritual or Prodigal Sorcerer? Until the format starts regulating the color pie more stringently, I'll never have any respect for that argument.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
A lot of time shifted cards did this top. Is Harmonize really in flavor all that much for green? They shifted the name so it sounds more green but we all know it's just Concentrate. I think Damnation is easily the most on flavor still even after shifting.
But you get my point. It'd be a fun house rule to run with for a week or two, experiment around with and see how it goes. Kinda like ignoring the banlist for a week or something to let the silliness ensue then go back to good rcbanlist rules.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
I would be okay with this. We already allow plenty of unflavorful card choices under the current rules while also disallowing some flavorful ones. My stance is that it's better to allow all the flavorful choices even if it means that we allow some more unflavorful ones. After all, the current line where we draw the flavor is based upon templating. I for one hope that wizards forces the issue. They certainly could have with the extort mechanic, but decided against it.
I feel like your own argument is a bit flawed. Both of the examples you brought up Dark Ritual and Prodigal Sorcerer are not alone examples of those mechanics in those sets nor were they abandoned when the color pie was more enforced in later sets.
Blue is obviously not primary or secondary in dealing damage, but it is part of their color pie, even if it is rarely. Doing a gatherer search you can come up with roughly 30 examples of blue dealing direct damage. While most of these ARE older cards there are quite a few newer examples (modern), such as Fledgling Mawcor and are roughly 18 or 19 examples of blue creatures being able to do this. Flavor wise it is their mastery of magic and the arcane that allow them to "bend" the rules a bit. I will not deny this is not a common treat but nor would I say it is incredibly farfetched. Some of the creatures are considered "multi-colored" in the purpose of color identity but I would say over half aren't. Some are even example of "pisionic" creatures which can deal damage at the cost of hurting themselves.
Black's argument I would say is even sillier. Black cares about mana, I would say it is secondary for mana generation along with red, primary being green. Though Wizards has clearly chosen to move rituals out of black, for the most part, that isn't true completely and black has plenty of cards that give a huge burst of mana for a short time, especially when it involves sac creatures to fuel their "rituals". A rough gatherer search comes up with 40 different cards that black uses to generate mana, many of which that do appear in "newer" sets like Time Sprawl and Torment where the color pies were more defined at least compared to earlier magic. I wouldn't deny that typically black doesn't accomplish this without paying some type of price, in retrospec I am sure Dark Ritual doesn't convey the flavor of greatness at any cost, like cards like Promise of power in the respect that black can have an incredibly flexible color pie if they sacrifice a creature, land, or pay some life. I don't fee this invalidates previous arguments though.
Early magic was rough, especially when it comes down to flavor. If a rule is made to try and capture flavor, in a card game, or any game, it is never going to be 100% accurate. Sometimes mechanics and balance can interfere or interrupt flavor in card design.
Harmonize I feel isn't very farfetched either. It is spot on for flavor, you are harnessing mana from the land to communicate with nature or through mediation to receive this knowledge. Considering Green is secondary, with black, in the color pie to receive card draw I don't see that as much of a stretch. Many many green cards generate card advantage, though this is closely tied to flavor and mechanics in green. Green cares about lands and creatures mostly, so many of their card advantage abilities reflect this Mulch and Commune with Nature are good examples of this, even if its not "drawing" while cards like Regal Force provide straight card drawing without being specific on type, though it has requirements to meet. Planar Chaos was meant to be a set that delved into flavor if the color pie was envisioned slightly different, but not completely alien. Many of these cards fit flavor perfectly Damnation being one of them as you mentioned. Though it wasn't common for black to have boardwipes very often, or for so cheap. It was later allowed black to be a stronger board wipe color as it leeched in later in different cards like Life's Finale.
In conclusion I just feel like people try to seek counter arguments using whatever they can find. No argument is ironclad and that is why in my first post I said you should look at "current" flavor of the color pie, I stated out many magic designers, including Maro didn't agree with the hybrid restriction in EDH, but when you get cards like Spitting Image or Dominus of Fealty or Drain the Well or even Sygg, River Cutthroat . Many of these cards work just fine in one of their colors as a mono but not very well in mono of the other or are weird combinations of their color pies. Green getting clone of anything and a token? Blue gaining control of something and giving haste for a turn? Green being able to destroy a land? Blue drawing cards based on suffering? Some of these cards honestly feel like they should be straight multicolored not hybrid based on their abilities.
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, Faith & Wrath (Control)
Jarad, Life & Death (Reanimator)
Merieke, Seduction & Obedience (Control/Steals)
Intet, Dreamworld (Aggro/Control)
Rith, Predators (Aggro)
To put it simply, I wouldn't. I know that I'm in the extreme minority when it comes to suggesting that rule 3 be removed, but all the suggestions of tweaking rule 3 to accommodate exceptions such as hybrid mana are just band-aid solutions to what I see as a major deficiency. So for me, removing it entirely is the best solution. People will still be restricted in what they can cast because of rule 4.
Thank you Theismisacrime @ HotP Studios for the great sig!