I think it's safe to say that archetypes are not very balanced in EDH right now. Most games either end with someone comboing off or the ramp player resolving some huge bomb (e.g. Tooth and Nail and winning. Which may not be inherently "bad" but I do feel sometimes that the format would be better off if aggro decks were more viable. And by "aggro" I don't mean ramping into Avenger of Zendikar and Craterhoof Behemoth, I mean true aggro i.e. a low mana curve and fast early threats. Those decks really aren't viable right now, period. Sure they can do enough damage to maybe kill one person, but eventually the player who spent the first 5 turns playing Farseek, Cultivate, Skyshroud Claim, and Boundless Realms will cast Cyclonic Rift or Wrath of God and then the aggro deck is basically done.
The only way aggro decks can really be competitive right now is with land destruction. I think it's incredibly silly that playgroups pseudo-ban land destruction while simultaneously allowing ramp players access to huge bombs (it's effectively like removing goalies from soccer AND allowing offensive players to use their hands) but the anti-LD attidude is unfortunately here to stay it seems. So with that in mind, I'd most likely be in favor of lowering the starting life total to 30 or maybe even 25, to try and balance archetypes and colors.
Hmmm... I see your point, but at the same time, a lot of the fun of EDH vs. other formats is that multiplayer & larger life totals make playing those bombs a competitive strategy. That being said, I wouldn't mind experimenting with 30 life per person for a while.
As a connoisseur of fun, interesting matches, I still to this day have not been able to craft that "perfect deck"; the deck that I can play and have fun over time, doesn't get boring, but simultaneously is fun to play against. I honestly don't think it exists. It's like a unicorn. A ninja unicorn.
I do often get tired of ramp, ramp, ramp > bomb > dominate game. The problem with aggro, is that we can't keep up. Even if we try ramp, ramp, ramp > threats... there's still three other players we have to worry about, and we can't kill them all as fast. A common thought is to play overwhelming singular threats (i.e. voltron), but those strategies put all the eggs in one basket, which can be easily disrupted, and linear at best.
So far, the best I have managed is to try and mimic the symetrical effects of control. For example, their cards often say "get rid of everything". So the cards we aggro players need to be playing need to say "hurt everyone" in order to match their play. It's not a perfect answer, and Wizards seems to continue to not print the cards we need (and they seem to botch every opportunity), but it's working well enough for now.
I don't think the answer is lowering life totals. I think the answer is for Wizards to print more effective options for aggro players facing multiple opponents.
Hmmm... I see your point, but at the same time, a lot of the fun of EDH vs. other formats is that multiplayer & larger life totals make playing those bombs a competitive strategy. That being said, I wouldn't mind experimenting with 30 life per person for a while.
I absolutely love that high cmc bombs are a competitive strategy. I just don't want them to be the ONLY competitive strategy.
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No because then Maralen Ad naseum combo becomes actually dangerous and gives the deck way too much variance for me to run cash tables. I like being able to turn 1 or 2 ad naseum for my deck, be at 4 life and combo off with my deck in my hand.
On a serious note, I don't think aggro really needs that much help. Just play commanders like Edric, Rafiq, Uril, etc... that have inherent protection or some kind of card advantage or quick clock and smack people upside the head before they understand what happened and then play cards that help protect your board state. Although I will say trying to play on a curve in EDH is a bad idea in general simply because of the variance of the format and the fact that small creatures just don't do a whole lot unless you make them relevant in ways that's not just swinging into the red zone. Or simply find a play group that wants to have a similar powerlevel in decks and don't just play super ramp or combo. You can also play prison cards like winterorb, smokestacks, tanglewire, etc... to build up a quick board state, then lock people out to hopefully kill the biggest offenders.
Honestly if people are having such an issue with ramp ramp big thing adjust your deck to be more interactive, or just play a super fast combo deck and when they cry about it tell them it's too bad, because that's what it feels like to play against them with a "fair" deck.
Ramp ramp ramp large spell... *dissapate*... control meta! Also ramp decks run the risk of just drawing all ramp and no threats or not enough to get past all the removal. I also have lots of clone decks that just steal your bombs, that makes ramp into huge things really dangerous.
Someone tried to play combo once... we all stuck nevermore and similar hate into our decks and crushed it.
Deveri seems incredibly effective at dealing that 40 damage with a swam of birds without any LD.
I think you meta is just stale and LD is super narrow thinking, i think you should deliberately do something different.
I guess I can sympathize with the aggro player, but ultimately, in constructed formats, aggro dominates (Zoo, Robots, Jund) rather than control and combo, so EDH offers players an opportunity to actually win with combo. There's always Voltron anyway, and yeah, it's boring, but I think aggro in general is pretty boring. You don't have to win with bombs and high CMC cards in EDH anyway. Midrange is really good with blue, remember, blue can counter any bomb.
I have to agree with honor, your metas probably just stale. My play group is made up omnath, oloro, sydri, arcanis, kemba, sliver queen, kallia. While we do have a lot of control, my friends kemba deck (voltron obviously) can get really scary when he's got some equipment out or his coat of arms. I've also played against some other aggro decks but i never really had too much trouble when i was still running merieke. The various voltron commanders are really pretty good aggro decks so it's hard to say they don't work. plus, they can usually play a couple late game bombs to keep up. The only decks i have real problems with are the sliver queen and Vorinclex decks i play against sometimes. mostly because i'm generally the only player who can count on boardwiping soon and crypt sliver puts a wrench in that plan while vorinclex doesn't care, he's already got 20+ mana on turn 5-6.
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Sigarda is insanely powerful and with Totem Armor, she's basically unstoppable, she's not control or combo, and she doesn't cast major bombs. Thrun is also pretty stupid.
My question for any aggro deck you run: How do you go over the top and win.
No aggro deck can reliably beat face and kill three people without something else. Something needs to make up for the lack of card advantage and the growing mana pools and collection of answers for your aggro style.
The easiest answer is usually stax. Run a tangle wire, a winter orb, maybe even a static orb, along with some MLD. No one can stop you if they don't have untapped lands, and by that point you don't need to cast any more spells anyway.
Another answer is control elements. Card draw, counterspells, and similar effects. For example, Edric does this really well. Play your aggro minions then swing them out, turning them into massive amounts of card draw. Then you just counter anything scary.
Yet another answer is combo. Have some terrifying combo that forces your opponents to be wary and respectful the whole time. For example, a Ruhan of the Fomori deck might right the Kikki+Pestermite combo as a way to suddenly win if all your opponents tap out to deal with you.
On top of that, another way to win with aggro is to have some type of very strong finisher. This could be something like an extra combat step spell, or an insurrection, or some big burn spell. You rely on those finishers to deal enough damage past the enemy shields to finish them off.
Finally, you can just aim to be all in and extremely fast. If people don't have time to play their fourth land before they're dead it's pretty hard for them to stop you.
____
As for life totals, I don't really have a problem with them. However, I'll admit that I rarely play straight aggro decks. I've mainly played some aggro-control with MLD or voltrons (who don't care about life totals) who don'y actually care about life totals. I have a Derevi deck that effectively wins by taking infinite turns via drawing all my extra turn spells off of Bident of Thassa + Edric + Coastal Piracy. Even without finishing people off in that cycle of turns I have so many counterspells and cards that it's hard for anyone to even dent me.
Edit: In the future try to have more neutral poll options. I would like to vote "No - I don't think this change is needed" I don't think games go on too long when people play strong decks and I don't think I need a massive amount of time to combo out. I just think that games are mainly long from people playing poorly or playing weak decks.
Most aggro decks win fast or at least dramatically speed up the game. Most dedicated combo decks are racing to their combo. It's only when the control and midrange players take over that games tend to take forever, and honestly most of the time I see that when very few people are playing early threats or being proactive.
No aggro deck can reliably beat face and kill three people without something else. Something needs to make up for the lack of card advantage and the growing mana pools and collection of answers for your aggro style.
In a 4 person game, Sigarda Voltron Totem Auras can easily win provided it's not a political game where everyone gangs up on the Sigarda. Uril Voltron can also do this too, maybe Thrun could. In a 3 person game, isamaru hound of konda has a solid shot.
I am in favor of lowering lifetotal. I feel bad when the aggro player uses enough resources to kill one person and then gets curbstomped for the rest of the game.
In a 4 person game, Sigarda Voltron Totem Auras can easily win provided it's not a political game where everyone gangs up on the Sigarda. Uril Voltron can also do this too, maybe Thrun could. In a 3 person game, isamaru hound of konda has a solid shot.
But those are Voltron style decks, which is a lot different than true agro.
I think the issue is mid-range style cards should be considered the agro type for EDH. 1 and 2 drops are not going to get there, you have to use smart and aggressive 4 drops and have smart answers for bombs. The other issue is people have a strong memory for who hit them early as opposed to who is the actual threat right now/ best general.
I am in favor of 30 life for EDH because it does not let people durdle into combos or bombs, they need a better mid-game strat.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I think 40 life is fine for 3 or 4 player games. 5+ players is when 40 life feels like too much.
I think most EDH players build with the fact that everyone starts 40 life either consciously or unconsciously. Not only does that life buffer buy them time to set things up, it also makes doing damage in large chunks and/or using repetitive/infinite damage sources the only "viable" ways to go on the offensive. It is something that you just can't be arbitrary about.
I'v played at 30 life, i like it for playing with 6+ players in a multiplayer game. But when we get that many people we try to play some variants of multiplayer, like hunter, pentagram, and emperor.
For playing with less than or equal to 4 players 40 life is where i like it.
I'd like to point out that 40 life like all the rules in EDH are voluntary and if you want to make an exception just talk to the people you play to give it a try.
I do have many decks, some are only really good if they can survive longer in the early game. Reduce the starting life totals and you will reduce the ability of some decks to win.
Personally i like 40 life because it opens more less used strategies to viability. In a standard 60 card game playing something for 10 mana should win you the game then and there. If you are seeing your preferred strategy lacking in winning power, you could play that strategy in a format where it works. My Bloodbond March deck just won't work in EDH so i just play it in a 60 card format where it does work.
You can change the format to play your way or you can find a format that already does. Change is hard so i'd go with the latter if you really feel that it can't be done in EDH.
Edric is basically an aggro deck, and he's arguably a top 5 general. In my play circle he's banned as a general, even in multiplayer. "traditional" aggro can work, but you need blue to be able to counter bombs and board wipes.
One of the folks I play with has a tuned Edric deck he claims is as good as or better than any other commander in multiplayer. I've only played against it once because it's much more competitive than the other decks played in that group. So yeah, aggro control is quite possible.
Krenko, Mob Boss can very easily be a straight-aggro deck. Using him a couple of times in one turn with something like Eldrazi Monument or Akroma's Memorial out can end an entire table pretty darn quick. The thing is, though, is that he's just so much better if you run him as combo/aggro. Having the combo option makes your deck just so much scarier.
40 is a solid number in my opinion. Aggro is perfectly viable with this number and anyone disagreeing is frankly wrong. Voltron is the most popular, but plenty of ways to cheat things into play for aggro exists; All aggro needs is proper threat assessment and take out the biggest threats first. Purphorous, God of the Forge can burn a whole table down as soon as turn 5 or 6 with a good enough hand.
Combo players don't need "more time". They put the game to a speed they want and combo off when they can in most groups. I don't see anyone in my group gunning to end the game because we believe it's supposed to be a social and fun format; While we compete, it's not all about winning.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Krenko and other mono red aggro generals basically auto lose to board wipes, and they don't have much of an answer. They also lose to Ghostly Prison and Propaganda. Edric is an example of a very strong aggro deck in EDH.
Lower life totals would have a pretty dramatic on the format as a whole too. In every format you need to be able to handle aggro decks. It doesn't matter whether you're playing standard, modern, or EDH. With lower life totals aggro decks all get buffed and decks would need more sweepers, more early removal, and lower CMC creatures that are good defensively.
I still feel like most of the complaints against aggro come from people playing bad aggro decks. When your opponents build well you will always have to be scared of the situation where your opponent gets ahead of you. Aggro has to play cheap threat and good early game cards. Early on those are great, but later on they are worse.
All aggro decks need to decide how they are going to manage this. Some just try to jam themselves in and win faster than people can stabilize. Going so all-in is extremely risky, and usually not a good idea. Like bone_doc mentioned, Krenko can do this, although he is probably better off with some combo victories as well.
Things like stax, control, noninteractivity, and combo are extremely good at this. For examples in EDH:
Stax - Aurelia, play threats then use MLD before people stabilize against you.
Control - Edric, play small threats and counterspells. Counter anything that kills you before you win or stops from you from killing people.
Noninteractivity - Sigarda voltron. Very few cards actually do anything. You rely on your opponents not drawing enough of them to stop you.
Combo - Krenko. Force the enemy to deal with you constantly, then pull out an infinite goblin combo the instant their shields are down.
All of these are a way to not lose once your opponents stabilize. An aggro deck really needs something like this in order to win. So while a lot of people wish life totals are lower, it's often just because they want to play aggro without one of these. A lot of people also play aggro while deliberately avoiding these (stax being the biggest culprit), which then makes them annoyed when they almost win then get stabilized against.
And honestly, most bad aggro decks would be just as ineffective with lower life totals. People build their deck to the available life and run enough answers to not die to aggro. Lower life would just make people play more of these and cheaper answers. Bad aggro decks would be just as bad, while good ones would probably be just as good. The real effect would be that people are playing more early game answers and less other cards.
Reducing life totals to help aggro decks is so sweet... my prossh deck would love for you to start with 10 less life. Hell any deck that ramps quickly would still run you over, they'd just do so quicker. Dropping life totals only hurts durdles, not combo or control or ramp. And any deck that ruins your aggro-deck is still going to do so just as often if its built at all decently, and if it isn't well then you shouldn't piss yourself when your aggro deck can't win because that means yours isn't built good enough.
Main point is that you have to build for the format, you want to aggro? Use cheap powerplays like mirran crusader and equipment and other such stuff so you can hit harder faster without just falling behind. You can run goblin guide in edh but he's not gonna be good enough, you can run raging goblin in modern but he just won't get there, you can trident shorethief in standard but don't cry when its not good enough. Either adapt to the format or suck it up when you can't keep up. Or can I play with a 250 card edh deck so I could win with battle of wits, cause its not quite able to keep up with 100-card singleton? I've seen, built, and lost to many a good aggro deck in edh, so I just can't see how there's any problem with its place in edh, its certainly more relevant than combo in standard or *non-tempo based* control in modern.
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The only way aggro decks can really be competitive right now is with land destruction. I think it's incredibly silly that playgroups pseudo-ban land destruction while simultaneously allowing ramp players access to huge bombs (it's effectively like removing goalies from soccer AND allowing offensive players to use their hands) but the anti-LD attidude is unfortunately here to stay it seems. So with that in mind, I'd most likely be in favor of lowering the starting life total to 30 or maybe even 25, to try and balance archetypes and colors.
Thoughts?
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
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So far, the best I have managed is to try and mimic the symetrical effects of control. For example, their cards often say "get rid of everything". So the cards we aggro players need to be playing need to say "hurt everyone" in order to match their play. It's not a perfect answer, and Wizards seems to continue to not print the cards we need (and they seem to botch every opportunity), but it's working well enough for now.
I don't think the answer is lowering life totals. I think the answer is for Wizards to print more effective options for aggro players facing multiple opponents.
I absolutely love that high cmc bombs are a competitive strategy. I just don't want them to be the ONLY competitive strategy.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
On a serious note, I don't think aggro really needs that much help. Just play commanders like Edric, Rafiq, Uril, etc... that have inherent protection or some kind of card advantage or quick clock and smack people upside the head before they understand what happened and then play cards that help protect your board state. Although I will say trying to play on a curve in EDH is a bad idea in general simply because of the variance of the format and the fact that small creatures just don't do a whole lot unless you make them relevant in ways that's not just swinging into the red zone. Or simply find a play group that wants to have a similar powerlevel in decks and don't just play super ramp or combo. You can also play prison cards like winterorb, smokestacks, tanglewire, etc... to build up a quick board state, then lock people out to hopefully kill the biggest offenders.
Honestly if people are having such an issue with ramp ramp big thing adjust your deck to be more interactive, or just play a super fast combo deck and when they cry about it tell them it's too bad, because that's what it feels like to play against them with a "fair" deck.
Ramp ramp ramp large spell... *dissapate*... control meta! Also ramp decks run the risk of just drawing all ramp and no threats or not enough to get past all the removal. I also have lots of clone decks that just steal your bombs, that makes ramp into huge things really dangerous.
Someone tried to play combo once... we all stuck nevermore and similar hate into our decks and crushed it.
Deveri seems incredibly effective at dealing that 40 damage with a swam of birds without any LD.
I think you meta is just stale and LD is super narrow thinking, i think you should deliberately do something different.
Voltron decks are the best kind of aggro.
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No aggro deck can reliably beat face and kill three people without something else. Something needs to make up for the lack of card advantage and the growing mana pools and collection of answers for your aggro style.
The easiest answer is usually stax. Run a tangle wire, a winter orb, maybe even a static orb, along with some MLD. No one can stop you if they don't have untapped lands, and by that point you don't need to cast any more spells anyway.
Another answer is control elements. Card draw, counterspells, and similar effects. For example, Edric does this really well. Play your aggro minions then swing them out, turning them into massive amounts of card draw. Then you just counter anything scary.
Yet another answer is combo. Have some terrifying combo that forces your opponents to be wary and respectful the whole time. For example, a Ruhan of the Fomori deck might right the Kikki+Pestermite combo as a way to suddenly win if all your opponents tap out to deal with you.
On top of that, another way to win with aggro is to have some type of very strong finisher. This could be something like an extra combat step spell, or an insurrection, or some big burn spell. You rely on those finishers to deal enough damage past the enemy shields to finish them off.
Finally, you can just aim to be all in and extremely fast. If people don't have time to play their fourth land before they're dead it's pretty hard for them to stop you.
____
As for life totals, I don't really have a problem with them. However, I'll admit that I rarely play straight aggro decks. I've mainly played some aggro-control with MLD or voltrons (who don't care about life totals) who don'y actually care about life totals. I have a Derevi deck that effectively wins by taking infinite turns via drawing all my extra turn spells off of Bident of Thassa + Edric + Coastal Piracy. Even without finishing people off in that cycle of turns I have so many counterspells and cards that it's hard for anyone to even dent me.
Edit: In the future try to have more neutral poll options. I would like to vote "No - I don't think this change is needed" I don't think games go on too long when people play strong decks and I don't think I need a massive amount of time to combo out. I just think that games are mainly long from people playing poorly or playing weak decks.
Most aggro decks win fast or at least dramatically speed up the game. Most dedicated combo decks are racing to their combo. It's only when the control and midrange players take over that games tend to take forever, and honestly most of the time I see that when very few people are playing early threats or being proactive.
In a 4 person game, Sigarda Voltron Totem Auras can easily win provided it's not a political game where everyone gangs up on the Sigarda. Uril Voltron can also do this too, maybe Thrun could. In a 3 person game, isamaru hound of konda has a solid shot.
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That's your issue right there, not the life total. The semi-ban on LD is what kills fast aggro decks.
I think the issue is mid-range style cards should be considered the agro type for EDH. 1 and 2 drops are not going to get there, you have to use smart and aggressive 4 drops and have smart answers for bombs. The other issue is people have a strong memory for who hit them early as opposed to who is the actual threat right now/ best general.
I am in favor of 30 life for EDH because it does not let people durdle into combos or bombs, they need a better mid-game strat.
I think most EDH players build with the fact that everyone starts 40 life either consciously or unconsciously. Not only does that life buffer buy them time to set things up, it also makes doing damage in large chunks and/or using repetitive/infinite damage sources the only "viable" ways to go on the offensive. It is something that you just can't be arbitrary about.
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For playing with less than or equal to 4 players 40 life is where i like it.
I'd like to point out that 40 life like all the rules in EDH are voluntary and if you want to make an exception just talk to the people you play to give it a try.
I do have many decks, some are only really good if they can survive longer in the early game. Reduce the starting life totals and you will reduce the ability of some decks to win.
Personally i like 40 life because it opens more less used strategies to viability. In a standard 60 card game playing something for 10 mana should win you the game then and there. If you are seeing your preferred strategy lacking in winning power, you could play that strategy in a format where it works. My Bloodbond March deck just won't work in EDH so i just play it in a 60 card format where it does work.
You can change the format to play your way or you can find a format that already does. Change is hard so i'd go with the latter if you really feel that it can't be done in EDH.
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Combo players don't need "more time". They put the game to a speed they want and combo off when they can in most groups. I don't see anyone in my group gunning to end the game because we believe it's supposed to be a social and fun format; While we compete, it's not all about winning.
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GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
I still feel like most of the complaints against aggro come from people playing bad aggro decks. When your opponents build well you will always have to be scared of the situation where your opponent gets ahead of you. Aggro has to play cheap threat and good early game cards. Early on those are great, but later on they are worse.
All aggro decks need to decide how they are going to manage this. Some just try to jam themselves in and win faster than people can stabilize. Going so all-in is extremely risky, and usually not a good idea. Like bone_doc mentioned, Krenko can do this, although he is probably better off with some combo victories as well.
Things like stax, control, noninteractivity, and combo are extremely good at this. For examples in EDH:
Stax - Aurelia, play threats then use MLD before people stabilize against you.
Control - Edric, play small threats and counterspells. Counter anything that kills you before you win or stops from you from killing people.
Noninteractivity - Sigarda voltron. Very few cards actually do anything. You rely on your opponents not drawing enough of them to stop you.
Combo - Krenko. Force the enemy to deal with you constantly, then pull out an infinite goblin combo the instant their shields are down.
All of these are a way to not lose once your opponents stabilize. An aggro deck really needs something like this in order to win. So while a lot of people wish life totals are lower, it's often just because they want to play aggro without one of these. A lot of people also play aggro while deliberately avoiding these (stax being the biggest culprit), which then makes them annoyed when they almost win then get stabilized against.
And honestly, most bad aggro decks would be just as ineffective with lower life totals. People build their deck to the available life and run enough answers to not die to aggro. Lower life would just make people play more of these and cheaper answers. Bad aggro decks would be just as bad, while good ones would probably be just as good. The real effect would be that people are playing more early game answers and less other cards.
Main point is that you have to build for the format, you want to aggro? Use cheap powerplays like mirran crusader and equipment and other such stuff so you can hit harder faster without just falling behind. You can run goblin guide in edh but he's not gonna be good enough, you can run raging goblin in modern but he just won't get there, you can trident shorethief in standard but don't cry when its not good enough. Either adapt to the format or suck it up when you can't keep up. Or can I play with a 250 card edh deck so I could win with battle of wits, cause its not quite able to keep up with 100-card singleton? I've seen, built, and lost to many a good aggro deck in edh, so I just can't see how there's any problem with its place in edh, its certainly more relevant than combo in standard or *non-tempo based* control in modern.
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