people flip out at every ban. i remember when painter's servant got banned, the dudes who played at my old shop called a meeting to talk about boycotting magic altogether. RIDICULOUS.
honestly in a format where thousands of cards are available, a banlist even twice as long as the one we have now would not bother me at all.
We spread the word fast and didn't have a problem with people resisting it was more.. *shrug* "yeah I guess that makes sense, it was pretty annoying" then they slipped a woodfall primus or similar back into their decks and moved on.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I would much rather WotC took over the ban list for EDH given the level of disconnect I've seen between the RC and the playerbase as a whole.
You honestly think people who don't even play the format AND don't have any data should run the ban list? Yea...great plan....
im sure that they play the format at wizards, especially now that they are printing cards directly for the format. isnt there a wotc employee on the RC?
People need to realize that when you play EDH you aren't playing a real format. Nothing is stopping you from playing with any of the cards on the banned list (or banning cards that aren't on it) within your local playgroup as long as there is a mutual agreement between the players. Hell you can change any of the rules of the format as long as your group is cool with it and you are in fact actively encouraged to do so. It's kitchen table magic, stop whining for Wizards and the Rules Committee to fix things for you and work it out like reasonable people. Straight from the official website:
"Players should aim to interact both during the game and before it begins, discussing with other players what they expect/want from the game.
House rules or "fair play" exceptions are always encouraged if they result in more fun for the local community."
The problem is that most people are weak, authority-abiding players that accept the rules without question. Painter's Servant banned? It must be extremely broken and anyone that uses it is a cheater. But since Sol Ring is legal, it must be a perfectly fair card. You can take your Mox Jet and play it in a mono-black EDH deck, and you'll be castigated for being a cheater playing a broken deck.
I really think a large, WotC-managed banlist would be a good thing. Lay out some -actual- criteria for banning, then ban the ***** out of anything that doesn't line up. I follow every ban immediately, but it gets pretty tiring having no idea what card is going to get banned when the next announcement comes around. It's why I can't stomach Modern. The RC's rules are subjective as well as arbitrarily enforced. Telling someone to house ban/unban something is pointless. If you plan to play with anyone outside of your playgroup you need a common starting point and that will always be the RC's banlist.
Sylvan wasn't a big deal. Primetime wasn't a big deal. Kokusho wasn't a big deal (hey she came off as part of the 99!). AN is still unbanned. Druid is still unbanned. CSphinx is still unbanned. Iona is still unbanned while Painter's Servant serves out her sentence for her. I have nothing against blue and I run it in my decks, but why the **** is Mana Drain legal? Shouldn't Sol Ring be banned too?
It would be super nice to know what is going on, yeah?
Yeah obviously if you did it without asking anyone in your group and just expected them to go along with it I would understand there being some problems. But anyone with even the remotest amount of social skill can ask a group of their friends "Hey guys, you mind if I play with x card?" It's a casual format so the banned list by default is totally arbitrary. Anyone who seriously thinks the banned list of this format is designed to provide a well balanced game experience is very wrong.
Because the banned list isn't there to provide balance, it's a socially governed format. It's up to your group to determine what is and is not too powerful for them. The banned list is a list of cards the RC feels provide unsatisfactory game experiences (and to provide common ground when meeting a new group), your experience may differ and therefore you are encouraged to change up the banned list to suit your groups needs.
im sure that they play the format at wizards, especially now that they are printing cards directly for the format. isnt there a wotc employee on the RC?
I should have been more cleat. It is obvious from their public stance the leadership at WotC that they don't like the politics and would prefer the format is as cut-throat as any other. They don't understand the playerbase and would wreck the format.
. I follow every ban immediately, but it gets pretty tiring having no idea what card is going to get banned when the next announcement comes around. It's why I can't stomach Modern. The RC's rules are subjective as well as arbitrarily enforced. Telling someone to house ban/unban something is pointless. If you plan to play with anyone outside of your playgroup you need a common starting point and that will always be the RC's banlist.
There have been around 2 cards banned in the last year. Yea that's a real burden.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
People need to realize that when you play EDH you aren't playing a real format. Nothing is stopping you from playing with any of the cards on the banned list (or banning cards that aren't on it) within your local playgroup as long as there is a mutual agreement between the players. Hell you can change any of the rules of the format as long as your group is cool with it and you are in fact actively encouraged to do so. It's kitchen table magic, stop whining for Wizards and the Rules Committee to fix things for you and work it out like reasonable people. Straight from the official website:
"Players should aim to interact both during the game and before it begins, discussing with other players what they expect/want from the game.
House rules or "fair play" exceptions are always encouraged if they result in more fun for the local community."
valid points, but not every player has a regular playgroup. I play at a shop and play upwards of 30 different opponents in a given year. the banlist is crucial in that type of situation.
I would say it's rare that people deviate from the RC ban list. Generally speaking, people feel a win with a banned card is because of the banned card. If you win too often, it won't be attributed to your play skills, it will be attributed to your use of a banned card. In other words, if you wish to win often and not have others consider you a cheater, you'll have to follow the ban list.
im sure that they play the format at wizards, especially now that they are printing cards directly for the format. isnt there a wotc employee on the RC?
I should have been more cleat. It is obvious from their public stance the leadership at WotC that they don't like the politics and would prefer the format is as cut-throat as any other. They don't understand the playerbase and would wreck the format.
And neither does the RC. If the banlist was built for a more cutthroat format, the whole casual/competitive EDH pissing match would probably go away too. I try to water my decks down a little for general consumption, aka "build casually play competitively," but it would be nice to go all out and not feel bad about it anymore. Honestly they would probably start with the french list and go from there. Seems like a good starting point.
And neither does the RC. If the banlist was built for a more cutthroat format, the whole casual/competitive EDH pissing match would probably go away too. I try to water my decks down a little for general consumption, aka "build casually play competitively," but it would be nice to go all out and not feel bad about it anymore. Honestly they would probably start with the french list and go from there. Seems like a good starting point.
Thats some serious rhetoric considering how popular the format is.
I once again ask what was causing bad games after SP's ban since you dodged it before. Cards or attitudes?
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
And neither does the RC. If the banlist was built for a more cutthroat format, the whole casual/competitive EDH pissing match would probably go away too. I try to water my decks down a little for general consumption, aka "build casually play competitively," but it would be nice to go all out and not feel bad about it anymore. Honestly they would probably start with the french list and go from there. Seems like a good starting point.
Thats some serious rhetoric considering how popular the format is.
I once again ask what was causing bad games after SP's ban since you dodged it before. Cards or attitudes?
Causation =/= correlation. We've never tried letting anyone else handle the ban list, so we have no empirical data to show that someone else would do any better or worse. All we do have is the distinct feeling from many players that the RC doesn't know what they're doing.
Saying that the RC is doing a good job because the format is popular is like saying that Gamestop is so profitable because the company heads are doing a good job. In the latter case, they're totally ******* not. I worked there for a couple years, those guys are idiots who throw dollars at every passing fad. They just stumbled upon an amazingly profitable business model that they don't fully understand, and it carries them through all of their mistakes.
Cards absolutely. I had him in two decks, and my swaps were Erayo (Mono-creature Edric) and Food Chain (Prossh). I also put Mindslaver in no-combo Sharuum. The games where those cards showed up were definitely less fun for everyone than any time Sylvan was ever cast/copied/reanimated, ever. Other games went as normal.
All we do have is the distinct feeling from many players that the RC doesn't know what they're doing.
That might just be a result of the way complaining works. I liked the SP ban (and everybody else at my playgroup echoed my thoughts: "Finally!"), but you don't see me making a thread saying "Everybody at my playgroup is incredibly satisfied with the SP ban and we are all continuing to abide by the RC's banlist, everything is normal." The only people who are vocal about it are the people with a problem, so of course if you go by what you hear other people say, it will seem like it was an unpopular choice.
We've never tried letting anyone else handle the ban list, so we have no empirical data to show that someone else would do any better or worse. All we do have is the distinct feeling from many players that the RC doesn't know what they're doing.
Yes if the VAST minority is "many players" you are spot on. People who post on the forums don't make up a lot of the EDH community, this is widely known. If the format had been handled poorly in the beginning or middle it would not be where it is, and that leadership has been constant. Of course no one else has been given control, the RC is doing a good job and no one else would put in the time or effort.
Cards absolutely. I had him in two decks, and my swaps were Erayo (Mono-creature Edric) and Food Chain (Prossh). I also put Mindslaver in no-combo Sharuum. The games where those cards showed up were definitely less fun for everyone than any time Sylvan was ever cast/copied/reanimated, ever. Other games went as normal.
So people clearly picked cards meant to troll people, not to replace SP, and the community is supposed to care your games got wrecked? Don't hold your breath.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Exactly correct in -both- cases. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
The cards were not picked to replace SP, as that wasn't the point. The point was that there are much, much nastier things legal in the format that have been around for much longer. Swapping those cards in 1-for-1 with SP makes games less fun and that says something whether you cover your eyes and pretend it doesn't or not.
I see that your position is that the RC is perfect and they've made zero bad decisions, so I don't think I can make any headway in making you understand that even good people with good intentions make mistakes. No one is perfect. The RC could be doing much better. Being an apologist or sycophant doesn't help anyone.
The cards were not picked to replace SP, as that wasn't the point. The point was that there are much, much nastier things legal in the format that have been around for much longer. Swapping those cards in 1-for-1 with SP makes games less fun and that says something whether you cover your eyes and pretend it doesn't or not.
And thats my point, you wanted to make a point and ruined games on purpose. NOT a card issue. No one doubts any deck can be made less fun, but Mindslaver and Erayo are not considered cool cards by the target audience. SP was and was showing up in a lot of decks and ruining games, hence it needed banned. If lots of people were recurring Mindslaver and wrecking games it might get banned too.
I see that your position is that the RC is perfect and they've made zero bad decisions, so I don't think I can make any headway in making you understand that even good people with good intentions make mistakes. No one is perfect. The RC could be doing much better. Being an apologist or sycophant doesn't help anyone.
I don't think they are perfect, I don't agree with all the choices they made. I am saying the number of correct choices has GREATLY outweighed the negative, and the health of the format is direct evidence of that. You can call me anything you like, but just being negative without any actual point doesn't advance anything either.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
All we do have is the distinct feeling from many players that the RC doesn't know what they're doing.
RC hater here. It's not really that they dont know what theyre doing. they know exactly what they are doing - but what they do is all in service to a particular philosophy of play involving complex unspoken gentlemens agreements and a certain quasi-casual "no griefers or gtfo" mentality. The fact is that as the popularity of the format grows, the percentage of the overall player base that shares their weird ideals and beliefs will become smaller and smaller, until their banlist ceases to make any shred of sense (IMO we are almost there right now).
I used it in half of my green decks, but I wasn't really sad to see it go; it just wasn't powerful enough most of the time. I am, however, in the boat that it was an undeserving ban, but the main EDH banlist is determined by the QQ of casual players, monetary cost, and some other weird things -- not actual power. Oh well, I always liked T-don more anyway.
I had more respect for the RC before I'd actually met one of its members and seen how he actively secludes himself from experiencing the 'meta'. Uninformed people, no matter how passionate or caring, make uninformed decisions.
I had more respect for the RC before I'd actually met one of its members and seen how he actively secludes himself from experiencing the 'meta'. Uninformed people, no matter how passionate or caring, make uninformed decisions.
I had more respect for the RC before I'd actually met one of its members and seen how he actively secludes himself from experiencing the 'meta'. Uninformed people, no matter how passionate or caring, make uninformed decisions.
Where do you base that on?
On topic:
In our playgroup we ignored this ban. We also ignored the Prime Time ban. We have an agreement in the group though that we can only search basic lands with Primeval Titan. This prevents players from searching for Cabal + Tomb every time. Our group doesn't abuse cards like this too much. PT en SP are never played on turn 2-4. SP is never used to blow up other players' land in early game. If someone would do that, he would hear it from the whole table. These two cards don't get copied over and over. Players don't always auto-tutor for it. Etc.
This is my only 'problem' with the RC and their ban list. I get the idea they focus too much on the cutthroat playgroups. It's understandable though because in those groups these degenerate plays take plays. In our playgroup we always talk new bans over. Does the new ban fix something in our playgroup? If not, then we just keep playing it. We never had to have a long conversation about it. It's very obvious if a ban is justified within the play group or not.
I see some players on here that blindly follow the ban list even though they say SP for instance isn't at all abused in their meta. This I really do not get. The ban list is not like the Modern ban list. It's up to playgroups to decide if the ban is justified or not. If you're playing in a cutthroat/competitive environment, you probably should always follow the ban list. In such an environment the bans make sense.
The only problem is that I would also like to see some cards banned in our playgroup which I think are way more broken than some of the cards on the ban list. I just do not play them myself because I dislike them (Skullclamp, DEN and Consecrated Sphinx for instance). Of course not everybody agrees with me on this in our group so they keep on using them. That's just how it works and I'm ok with it :). I just started running more answers to insane cards like that. Especially Consecrated Sphinx is a dumb card in EDH imo. It always, always gets copied and then two players can draw their entire deck. Yay... Sometimes it is the only logical answer to a Sphinx to battle the card advantage it creates, if not having removal in hand. Just a stupid card.
Ignoring bans because WotC hasn't updated their websites is pretty dumb though. Especially if they are abusing SP like that.
honestly in a format where thousands of cards are available, a banlist even twice as long as the one we have now would not bother me at all.
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
im sure that they play the format at wizards, especially now that they are printing cards directly for the format. isnt there a wotc employee on the RC?
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
"Players should aim to interact both during the game and before it begins, discussing with other players what they expect/want from the game.
House rules or "fair play" exceptions are always encouraged if they result in more fun for the local community."
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Sylvan wasn't a big deal. Primetime wasn't a big deal. Kokusho wasn't a big deal (hey she came off as part of the 99!). AN is still unbanned. Druid is still unbanned. CSphinx is still unbanned. Iona is still unbanned while Painter's Servant serves out her sentence for her. I have nothing against blue and I run it in my decks, but why the **** is Mana Drain legal? Shouldn't Sol Ring be banned too?
It would be super nice to know what is going on, yeah?
PASS
There have been around 2 cards banned in the last year. Yea that's a real burden.
valid points, but not every player has a regular playgroup. I play at a shop and play upwards of 30 different opponents in a given year. the banlist is crucial in that type of situation.
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
And neither does the RC. If the banlist was built for a more cutthroat format, the whole casual/competitive EDH pissing match would probably go away too. I try to water my decks down a little for general consumption, aka "build casually play competitively," but it would be nice to go all out and not feel bad about it anymore. Honestly they would probably start with the french list and go from there. Seems like a good starting point.
I once again ask what was causing bad games after SP's ban since you dodged it before. Cards or attitudes?
Causation =/= correlation. We've never tried letting anyone else handle the ban list, so we have no empirical data to show that someone else would do any better or worse. All we do have is the distinct feeling from many players that the RC doesn't know what they're doing.
Saying that the RC is doing a good job because the format is popular is like saying that Gamestop is so profitable because the company heads are doing a good job. In the latter case, they're totally ******* not. I worked there for a couple years, those guys are idiots who throw dollars at every passing fad. They just stumbled upon an amazingly profitable business model that they don't fully understand, and it carries them through all of their mistakes.
Cards absolutely. I had him in two decks, and my swaps were Erayo (Mono-creature Edric) and Food Chain (Prossh). I also put Mindslaver in no-combo Sharuum. The games where those cards showed up were definitely less fun for everyone than any time Sylvan was ever cast/copied/reanimated, ever. Other games went as normal.
That might just be a result of the way complaining works. I liked the SP ban (and everybody else at my playgroup echoed my thoughts: "Finally!"), but you don't see me making a thread saying "Everybody at my playgroup is incredibly satisfied with the SP ban and we are all continuing to abide by the RC's banlist, everything is normal." The only people who are vocal about it are the people with a problem, so of course if you go by what you hear other people say, it will seem like it was an unpopular choice.
So people clearly picked cards meant to troll people, not to replace SP, and the community is supposed to care your games got wrecked? Don't hold your breath.
Exactly correct in your case
Exactly correct in -both- cases. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
The cards were not picked to replace SP, as that wasn't the point. The point was that there are much, much nastier things legal in the format that have been around for much longer. Swapping those cards in 1-for-1 with SP makes games less fun and that says something whether you cover your eyes and pretend it doesn't or not.
I see that your position is that the RC is perfect and they've made zero bad decisions, so I don't think I can make any headway in making you understand that even good people with good intentions make mistakes. No one is perfect. The RC could be doing much better. Being an apologist or sycophant doesn't help anyone.
I don't think they are perfect, I don't agree with all the choices they made. I am saying the number of correct choices has GREATLY outweighed the negative, and the health of the format is direct evidence of that. You can call me anything you like, but just being negative without any actual point doesn't advance anything either.
RC hater here. It's not really that they dont know what theyre doing. they know exactly what they are doing - but what they do is all in service to a particular philosophy of play involving complex unspoken gentlemens agreements and a certain quasi-casual "no griefers or gtfo" mentality. The fact is that as the popularity of the format grows, the percentage of the overall player base that shares their weird ideals and beliefs will become smaller and smaller, until their banlist ceases to make any shred of sense (IMO we are almost there right now).
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
willful ignorance. that really grinds my gears.
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
Where do you base that on?
On topic:
In our playgroup we ignored this ban. We also ignored the Prime Time ban. We have an agreement in the group though that we can only search basic lands with Primeval Titan. This prevents players from searching for Cabal + Tomb every time. Our group doesn't abuse cards like this too much. PT en SP are never played on turn 2-4. SP is never used to blow up other players' land in early game. If someone would do that, he would hear it from the whole table. These two cards don't get copied over and over. Players don't always auto-tutor for it. Etc.
This is my only 'problem' with the RC and their ban list. I get the idea they focus too much on the cutthroat playgroups. It's understandable though because in those groups these degenerate plays take plays. In our playgroup we always talk new bans over. Does the new ban fix something in our playgroup? If not, then we just keep playing it. We never had to have a long conversation about it. It's very obvious if a ban is justified within the play group or not.
I see some players on here that blindly follow the ban list even though they say SP for instance isn't at all abused in their meta. This I really do not get. The ban list is not like the Modern ban list. It's up to playgroups to decide if the ban is justified or not. If you're playing in a cutthroat/competitive environment, you probably should always follow the ban list. In such an environment the bans make sense.
The only problem is that I would also like to see some cards banned in our playgroup which I think are way more broken than some of the cards on the ban list. I just do not play them myself because I dislike them (Skullclamp, DEN and Consecrated Sphinx for instance). Of course not everybody agrees with me on this in our group so they keep on using them. That's just how it works and I'm ok with it :). I just started running more answers to insane cards like that. Especially Consecrated Sphinx is a dumb card in EDH imo. It always, always gets copied and then two players can draw their entire deck. Yay... Sometimes it is the only logical answer to a Sphinx to battle the card advantage it creates, if not having removal in hand. Just a stupid card.
Ignoring bans because WotC hasn't updated their websites is pretty dumb though. Especially if they are abusing SP like that.