-UG decks can clone it a ton of times after playing it, thus setting everyone else even further back.
-BG decks can reanimate him over and over.
I think the better question is how you BEAT a turn 3 SyPri, since the green player is now waaaaaay ahead in mana and can do stupid things like tutor up and drop Vorinclex, Eldrazi titans, and the like. Sure, it's not impossible to beat a turn 3 SyPri, but don't act like it's easy, either.
It's not easy, but at that point in the game it's at least 3v1. No way a green player in top deck mode can beat it 3 black/blue/red players wanting to destroy their board.
Let's say you cast it on turn 3, so now have you 10 mana on turn 3. How will you beat the wrath of 3 black players with Edicts, discard, reanimate, and spot removal for anything else you play afterwards?
What happens if you cast Sylvan Tutor for Green Praetor, they cast Praetor's, way to waste your $30 Worldly Tutor.
Let's say you cast Summoning Pact for Big green fatty, they cast Vendilion Clique and tucking that card on the bottom. Lets say you draw land.
It's very to easy to beat a player who goes all in on turn 3.
Have fun being a troll, I brought up a very good point.
How was I able to beat a turn 2 Magister Sphinx, and players can't beat a turn 3-5 SP? I'm on a turn 2 clock, and you have at least 3 turns before they go off and win.
I dunno, I just want a big ramp creature. I think it's reasonable to tell my playgroup "Look, when I play Tooth and Nail I am going to get one of these 3 things from my deck: Primeval Titan, Sylvan Primordial, Kiki Jiki. You guys tell me which one I should play."
I just want to have a fun ramp creature, but if they are all banned I can fill the spots with instant-win cards instead.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
I didn't see that in the banlist area of the site.
Who actually loses to SP on turn 3?
I've been Magister Sphinx'd on turn 2, and I still beat them. I had a Ancient Tomb and tapped Mana Vault, that's 3 damage not in my favor. Why do you people complain so much?
How do you y'all lose to a turn 3-5 SP?
Then how do you beat the copy/the repeatable bounce that happens in the next two turns? That's why he was bad. The repeated use. If he read when you cast him then do his tricks he would never have been banned.
its not that - I've lots TONS of cards to bannings, including my beloved gifts ungiven. However, every single banning up till now has had SOME sort of reasonable justification - hell, even Primetime's banning made more sense than this. But for some reason, banning SyPry is making me lose my ****, and I only use it in a single deck. Its a senseless banning, is all.
Senseless is far from it. IMO it makes more sense to ban SyPri than PT. Green decks get way more advantage out of it than other color decks. At least with PT a black Reanimator or clone gets the same bonus as the green deck by controling him. Making every non green deck inferior to the green deck.
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BGUSULTI ELEVENSBGU
hatred
I will flay the skin from your flesh,
the flesh from your bones,
and scrape your bones dry,
and still you will not have suffered enough!
Quote the Ryxsyn;
NeVeRMoRe!
You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain!
-Harvey Dent
It's not easy, but at that point in the game it's at least 3v1. No way a green player in top deck mode can beat it 3 black/blue/red players wanting to destroy their board.
Let's say you cast it on turn 3, so now have you 10 mana on turn 3. How will you beat the wrath of 3 black players with Edicts, discard, reanimate, and spot removal for anything else you play afterwards?
What happens if you cast Sylvan Tutor for Green Praetor, they cast Praetor's, way to waste your $30 Worldly Tutor.
Let's say you cast Summoning Pact for Big green fatty, they cast Vendilion Clique and tucking that card on the bottom. Lets say you draw land.
It's very to easy to beat a player who goes all in on turn 3.
Have fun being a troll, I brought up a very good point.
How was I able to beat a turn 2 Magister Sphinx, and players can't beat a turn 3-5 SP? I'm on a turn 2 clock, and you have at least 3 turns before they go off and win.
I like how you called me a troll, yet you live in the magical land of god hands, where everyone has answers for every single thing the green player with a ton of land can do. You didn't bring up a good point, you just said "I don't see how anyone can lose to an early SyPri."
Have you never played against a solid green deck? They run so many threats you can't possibly answer them all, even if it is 3 on 1. Good luck dealing with Vorinclex, Eldrazi, G-Wave, E-wit, Avenger, and the like with no mana. Any one of those will make coming back nearly impossible. Oh wait, I forgot, you live in magical god hand land and have a bunch more lands in your hand / can draw lands whenever you want. It doesn't matter that the green player has more mana available than the rest of the table combined. It doesn't matter that green has a ton of card draw, let alone the UG and BG decks that can abuse him even more. They definitely can't clone / bounce and replay / sac and reanimate the SyPri and further destroy your mana base, either. Yep.
Is it impossible to come back and beat an early SyPri? Of course not. But saying it is easy is ridiculous. Saying that there's "no way" a green player can beat the rest of the table after dropping him is completely and absolutely absurd.
there is only one answer for this question: a different cards for each kind of deck! and that's why sylvan was a good ban. also, if you played it so innocently in your playgroup, they'll let you house-unban it right?
to people saying that deadeye was more ban-worthy than sylvan: don't worry, they'll ban deadeye too
Yeah. In our group, the prevailing attitude was " yeah, Sylvan was abusive, but everyone else plays him, so I need to too."
I almost hated playing him, because I knew it was an extremely potent troubleshooting and ramp card, it also became the clear bribery and clone target.
Put me down in the "perfectly appropriate ban" camp.
I'm happy about this but it really doesn't impact my playgroup anyway. We were ahead of the curve and had already housebanned this loser of a card a long time ago.
Nothing,our group as decided to avoid most of the ban because whe believe that the edh banlist commitee might be a bunch of monkey that only listen to player complaint instead of actual card power.
But if i had to in my current deck i guess i would have to get myself a terrastodon or an avenger of zendikar now that i got free space.
So glad to see that gone, it was terrible for the game. In my group about half of us already refused to run him and the other half would play him but usually wear a sheepish grin while doing so.
Am I the only person who thinks DEN is a fine card? Like it's not even overly strong, it's merely good.
probably. I mean I've won games blinking freaking Elvish Visionary with DEN, I can't imagine people believing it's anyhing other than a degenerate overengineered piece of ****
On topic, probably anything, maybe another haymaker like GWave or Boundless Realms
Mirri, Cat Warrior voltron, where it really didn't belong anyhow. I think I'll replace it with Aspect of Hydra, to give Mirri another way of killing people out of nowhere.
Mayael and Borborygmos... not sure yet, but lots of possibilities. I have copies of planeswalker Xenagos and of Garruk, Caller of Beasts that aren't doing anything, or maybe I'll try out the new guy that gives all my stuff hexproof, and when I get god Xenagos, I'm sure he'll go in one of those decks.
Anyway, I'll have no problem replacing it, since there's always more good cards to play, and won't really miss it.
probably. I mean I've won games blinking freaking Elvish Visionary with DEN, I can't imagine people believing it's anyhing other than a degenerate overengineered piece of ****
On topic, probably anything, maybe another haymaker like GWave or Boundless Realms
Yea. I freely admit that I abuse DEN and would not be sad to see him go, and I think he's going to be the next heated ban discussion target.
As for what I will replace SP with? Fun games.
I never ran him because I never pulled him and my local store was always out of him because everyone I knew quite literally bought EVERY SINGLE ONE as soon as they could. Hell, even after that they bought 6+ copies online.
I had a feeling that the ban was coming soon, so I ended up cutting him from my Saffi deck last week. Not sure what exactly got added in his place, considering I made a bunch of other changes, but my basic land count went up, so I guess he got swapped for Forest?
I can accept his banning as I wasn't ever all that attached to him compared to other bans, though I've never had problems with him in my playgroup. Admittedly, my playgroup is still developing, so its not the best example; but since when has a Commander playgroup needed to be competitive and highly active?
Nothing,our group as decided to avoid most of the ban because whe believe that the edh banlist commitee might be a bunch of monkey that only listen to player complaint instead of actual card power.
Ceteris paribus, Sylvan Primordial is a very powerful card. For starters, it has significant toughness (8) and reach. When it comes into play, you can destory 3 (noncreature) permanents. Even if S.Primordial dies instantly, it is still a 3-for-1. However on top of that, you get to ramp 3 lands. Can you name any other 6-for-1 cards?
I have it in three decks. I'll talk in my article next week about what I'm replacing it with, but there are so many fun new cards in BNG that I won't have too look far for cool stuff.
I can agree that DNN may have deserved the axe more than Sylvan. The only time he got degenerate in our group was when paired with Deadeye. There are usually enough mono colored decks that people would rather reanimate something like Iona.
My biggest issue with the hole it left in my mono green deck is that there isn't another 7CMC creature with removal in mono green, which leaves a hole in my Birthing Pod chain for removal, at least.
You don't net anything in return, nor does it help you ramp. In order to abuse O-stone, you have to have your deck built around it (artifacts). None of those will give you a 6-1 for every single time.
I don't mind too much, since most decks I play SP in can easily swap it out for something else like Karametra.
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Ask yourselves, all of you, what power would hell have if those imprisoned here could not dream of heaven?
EDH:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Zo-Zu the Punisher Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
This ban is basically a cause of "Giving in to those who scream the loudest" anyway, as the real problems still run rampant.
Between Pelakka Wurm, Moldgraf Monstrosity, Avenger of Zendikar and Regal Force, green has plenty of value in its 7-drop slot fortunately. But if people don't want me to play a possible wincon (Which SP only is with a DEN and a truckload of mana, at which point you SHOULD be able to answer either of the two), I guess I'll switch to a surefire wincon in Palinchron or something.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I only really ran it in my Maelstrom Wanderer list, and there it's getting replaced by Tromokratis, which attacks better. I'm a little disappointed in the fact that I lose a lot of disruption from it, but I'll get by regardless.
This ban is basically a cause of "Giving in to those who scream the loudest" anyway, as the real problems still run rampant.
Between Pelakka Wurm, Moldgraf Monstrosity, Avenger of Zendikar and Regal Force, green has plenty of value in its 7-drop slot fortunately. But if people don't want me to play a possible wincon (Which SP only is with a DEN and a truckload of mana, at which point you SHOULD be able to answer either of the two), I guess I'll switch to a surefire wincon in Palinchron or something.
You say yourself that green has "plenty of value in its 7-drop", yet because this abomination of a card gets banned you and others like you decide to get butthurt and say social contract be damned! Full steam ahead with the true broken cards and combos an non-interaction for the win! Seems strange to me, but whatever floats your boat I guess.
I hope this says something to Wizards about the cards they have been printing for EDH. They think they're helping by giving us "fun" cards, but they're really just ruining the format.
I hope this says something to Wizards about the cards they have been printing for EDH. They think they're helping by giving us "fun" cards, but they're really just ruining the format.
I wouldn't make a generalization like this about every card that Wizards develops with intention of being EDH applicable. There are many new cards that have made the format more enjoyable and popular, much more so than cards that are "ruining the format". At least in my opinion, but I'm confident others will agree. Both Commander preconstructed deck sets have been successful.
It tends to be in the lame ubiquitous bombs they print. "Hey guys here is another staple! Add it in with those other staples we have given you and soon your decks will be all the same. WOOOOOHH!!!!11!!!1" Bleh, we don't want staples, we want cards with unique effects that go well in some decks and not in others. You know, like most formats.
It's not easy, but at that point in the game it's at least 3v1. No way a green player in top deck mode can beat it 3 black/blue/red players wanting to destroy their board.
Let's say you cast it on turn 3, so now have you 10 mana on turn 3. How will you beat the wrath of 3 black players with Edicts, discard, reanimate, and spot removal for anything else you play afterwards?
What happens if you cast Sylvan Tutor for Green Praetor, they cast Praetor's, way to waste your $30 Worldly Tutor.
Let's say you cast Summoning Pact for Big green fatty, they cast Vendilion Clique and tucking that card on the bottom. Lets say you draw land.
It's very to easy to beat a player who goes all in on turn 3.
Have fun being a troll, I brought up a very good point.
How was I able to beat a turn 2 Magister Sphinx, and players can't beat a turn 3-5 SP? I'm on a turn 2 clock, and you have at least 3 turns before they go off and win.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
I just want to have a fun ramp creature, but if they are all banned I can fill the spots with instant-win cards instead.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Then how do you beat the copy/the repeatable bounce that happens in the next two turns? That's why he was bad. The repeated use. If he read when you cast him then do his tricks he would never have been banned.
VERY deserving ban...
Senseless is far from it. IMO it makes more sense to ban SyPri than PT. Green decks get way more advantage out of it than other color decks. At least with PT a black Reanimator or clone gets the same bonus as the green deck by controling him. Making every non green deck inferior to the green deck.
hatred
I will flay the skin from your flesh,
the flesh from your bones,
and scrape your bones dry,
and still you will not have suffered enough!
Quote the Ryxsyn;
NeVeRMoRe!
You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain!
-Harvey Dent
I like how you called me a troll, yet you live in the magical land of god hands, where everyone has answers for every single thing the green player with a ton of land can do. You didn't bring up a good point, you just said "I don't see how anyone can lose to an early SyPri."
Have you never played against a solid green deck? They run so many threats you can't possibly answer them all, even if it is 3 on 1. Good luck dealing with Vorinclex, Eldrazi, G-Wave, E-wit, Avenger, and the like with no mana. Any one of those will make coming back nearly impossible. Oh wait, I forgot, you live in magical god hand land and have a bunch more lands in your hand / can draw lands whenever you want. It doesn't matter that the green player has more mana available than the rest of the table combined. It doesn't matter that green has a ton of card draw, let alone the UG and BG decks that can abuse him even more. They definitely can't clone / bounce and replay / sac and reanimate the SyPri and further destroy your mana base, either. Yep.
Is it impossible to come back and beat an early SyPri? Of course not. But saying it is easy is ridiculous. Saying that there's "no way" a green player can beat the rest of the table after dropping him is completely and absolutely absurd.
Yeah. In our group, the prevailing attitude was " yeah, Sylvan was abusive, but everyone else plays him, so I need to too."
I almost hated playing him, because I knew it was an extremely potent troubleshooting and ramp card, it also became the clear bribery and clone target.
Put me down in the "perfectly appropriate ban" camp.
Roon of the Pod People (Roon of the Hidden Realm)
Sydri, Super Genius (Sydri, Galvanic Genius)
Marchesa, the Black Rose
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Retired:
Grimgrin's Corpse-Beats (Grimgrin, Corpse-Born) | Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge | Varolz, the Scar-Striped (1v1) | Glissa, the Traitor
GWBKarador, Necrotic Ooze SubthemeBWG
But if i had to in my current deck i guess i would have to get myself a terrastodon or an avenger of zendikar now that i got free space.
probably. I mean I've won games blinking freaking Elvish Visionary with DEN, I can't imagine people believing it's anyhing other than a degenerate overengineered piece of ****
On topic, probably anything, maybe another haymaker like GWave or Boundless Realms
Mirri, Cat Warrior voltron, where it really didn't belong anyhow. I think I'll replace it with Aspect of Hydra, to give Mirri another way of killing people out of nowhere.
Mayael and Borborygmos... not sure yet, but lots of possibilities. I have copies of planeswalker Xenagos and of Garruk, Caller of Beasts that aren't doing anything, or maybe I'll try out the new guy that gives all my stuff hexproof, and when I get god Xenagos, I'm sure he'll go in one of those decks.
Anyway, I'll have no problem replacing it, since there's always more good cards to play, and won't really miss it.
Yea. I freely admit that I abuse DEN and would not be sad to see him go, and I think he's going to be the next heated ban discussion target.
As for what I will replace SP with? Fun games.
I never ran him because I never pulled him and my local store was always out of him because everyone I knew quite literally bought EVERY SINGLE ONE as soon as they could. Hell, even after that they bought 6+ copies online.
Good bye Sylvan. You get no sympathy from me.
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU
I can accept his banning as I wasn't ever all that attached to him compared to other bans, though I've never had problems with him in my playgroup. Admittedly, my playgroup is still developing, so its not the best example; but since when has a Commander playgroup needed to be competitive and highly active?
RRR - Bosh's School of Hard(cover) Knocks
Ceteris paribus, Sylvan Primordial is a very powerful card. For starters, it has significant toughness (8) and reach. When it comes into play, you can destory 3 (noncreature) permanents. Even if S.Primordial dies instantly, it is still a 3-for-1. However on top of that, you get to ramp 3 lands. Can you name any other 6-for-1 cards?
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
Wrath of God, Oblivion Stone, Decree of Pain, etc. etc. etc.
My biggest issue with the hole it left in my mono green deck is that there isn't another 7CMC creature with removal in mono green, which leaves a hole in my Birthing Pod chain for removal, at least.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
You don't net anything in return, nor does it help you ramp. In order to abuse O-stone, you have to have your deck built around it (artifacts). None of those will give you a 6-1 for every single time.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
I don't mind too much, since most decks I play SP in can easily swap it out for something else like Karametra.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
Between Pelakka Wurm, Moldgraf Monstrosity, Avenger of Zendikar and Regal Force, green has plenty of value in its 7-drop slot fortunately. But if people don't want me to play a possible wincon (Which SP only is with a DEN and a truckload of mana, at which point you SHOULD be able to answer either of the two), I guess I'll switch to a surefire wincon in Palinchron or something.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
You say yourself that green has "plenty of value in its 7-drop", yet because this abomination of a card gets banned you and others like you decide to get butthurt and say social contract be damned! Full steam ahead with the true broken cards and combos an non-interaction for the win! Seems strange to me, but whatever floats your boat I guess.
I wouldn't make a generalization like this about every card that Wizards develops with intention of being EDH applicable. There are many new cards that have made the format more enjoyable and popular, much more so than cards that are "ruining the format". At least in my opinion, but I'm confident others will agree. Both Commander preconstructed deck sets have been successful.
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!