Yea unless you have to pay 20+ to swing at him, and he just Maze's your general if you can get through. (Or blocks it)
Oloro is GOOD, SCARY GOOD, but not the best. And i even let my Oloro friend get out his pillowfort, since my deck does not swing at him. Instead I win a different way.
Uril, the Miststalker pokes his head out of the mist to say hello and to tell you that mazes do not confuse him like they do many of his weaker minded comrades.
I have played with and against Oloro and have zero complaints. In fact I would say he is right in that sweet spot for a general, good and interesting, but not broken. Just among these precons I find Roon, Derevi, and Prosh to be stronger and/or more annoying to face.
Yea unless you have to pay 20+ to swing at him, and he just Maze's your general if you can get through. (Or blocks it)
Oloro is GOOD, SCARY GOOD, but not the best. And i even let my Oloro friend get out his pillowfort, since my deck does not swing at him. Instead I win a different way.
...Would the situation you're setting up be somehow easier to beat if it wasn't Oloro? The only outs I'm seeing that get wrecked by Oloro's lifegain but could get through the Maze and Propaganda effects is stuff like non-infinite Exsanguniate. And then, of course, there's always the question of why you aren't dealing with their field, since they've obviously got a few cards out.
He would be fine without the command zone interaction.
But I'm bias, I don't like the design choice of cards interacting with the command zone.
Probably because I'm old.
"In my day, the commander was called general, and he stunk! But we still played, in 20 feet of snow, with no sleeves. You youngsters and your command zone... Pffft!"
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
weird that we are kinda agreeing on something commander related.
what i'm just hoping is that wizard won't release loads of commanders like this in the next precons. Oloro (and derevi) was an experiment, maybe a fun experiment, maybe a successfull one, but don't exaggerate please.
Don't get too excited.
The second they make a general that says;
If ~ is in your command zone and has been cast 2 or more times each player must sacrifice a permanent at the beginning of their upkeep, I'll probably change my opinion.
This might just be me overstating things, but I feel like commanders that interact directly from the command zone were a mistake.
I agree, but not because it's over-powered. Varying power levels are fine in EDH - it was never supposed to be a strictly balanced format.
I don't like it because the card was all too obviously designed to be a commander and only that. The fun of a commander deck is choosing a legendary, putting them in a new context than the standard game they were originally designed for, and seeing what happens.
A card that has been optimized precisely for the format wrecks the whole point of what the format is about, seems to me.
The same goes for Derevi with her command-zone-only ability.
Oloro generates 2 life per your turn. It take 5 turns for 10 life. 20 turns to double the starting life total. Yes, it's a free resource but he's not making any card stronger than it already is (with the exception of Zur's Weirding in 1v1).
If the table cannot deal with minuscule life changes slowly over the course of the game I'm not sure what to tell you.
Gaining life like milling is a mechanic that has almost 0 effect on the game. WotC realized that they could basically give the effect away so they tried it. And it hasn't broken anything.
One thing I disagree with is your assertion that "he's not making any card stronger than it already is".
I've played Oloro since before the deck lists were spoiled (proxy obviously) and Ive tried a whole bunch of builds starting with pillow fort and now running life as a resource. Card draw cards like Greed, Unfulfilled Desires, Phyrexian Arena and all the black instants and sorcery are vastly improved by Oloro's life gain because their drawbacks are mitigated. Especially if you supplement the life gain. Sure life totals may not matter as much in EDH but having more fuel for card draw is powerful. Combine all of those cards and a Paradox Haze and I've been in situations wher I'm drawing around 5-6 cards a turn cycle while spending virtually no mana and losing very little life (sometimes even gaining).
One interaction that is almost broken in Oloro is Necropotence + Venser's Journal. These two combined are extremely powerful anyway but with Oloro you can afford to pull 5-10 extra cards on that first massive Necropotence with both out. It's a lot less risky to take 20 and go to 30 life or so then to take 20 and go to 20 or less health. That can make a shockingly big difference if you're doing it turn 4-6. It is really hard to beat a guy that has 30+ cards in hand that early in the game. Especially in Esper colors. Think about how hard it would be to beat a control player with 30 cards in hand and 80 or so life by turn 7 or so (which I've done). Oloro enables that more so then any commander I've seen.
What really might create a problem with Oloro is the life gain combined with his colors. Esper gives you all sorts of tools that make it difficult for players to get in for commander damage or infect damage. Esper might even be the best color in terms of disrupting combos (bant is right there with it). The colors and his life gain make it so that you often survive for a long time and in my experience in EDH the longer you survive the better chance you have to win.
Because of this there are many archetypes for deck builds for Oloro that all lead to Oloro consistently being one of the last decks in the game. Pillowfort is strong, aggro is strong, combo is strong, card draw is strong and he might even be the best commander for stax now. I would argue that the life gain element accounts for at least 40% of this effect and the Esper colors 60%.
...Welp, that's a card I need to find. At the very least, I'll have to test it out; it may draw more hate than it's worth, but that's going to remain to be seen.
I know from first hand experience how annoying Oloro is. We have a Fnm format at my local specifically with Commander decks and i played against an Oloro player. I was playing Jarad at most that deck is annoying but i have yet to see it do anything amazing. If you keep their stuff locked down/countered/or killed you dont worry about anything really.
I know from first hand experience how annoying Oloro is. We have a Fnm format at my local specifically with Commander decks and i played against an Oloro player. I was playing Jarad at most that deck is annoying but i have yet to see it do anything amazing. If you keep their stuff locked down/countered/or killed you dont worry about anything really.
Regarding any commander: If you keep their stuff locked down/countered/killed, you don't have anything to worry about. That's the whole premise of control decks. While I'm perfectly ok with Oloro as a card that exists, this is not a viewpoint to support it.
In any case, the biggest problem I have with Oloro is missed triggers. It's gonna take me ages to get used to having a trigger on the first upkeep of the game.
Except venser's journal is a terrible card, and only combos with necro and a couple of other cards and it's not even a combo. Opponents have an entire turn to deal with it before you even start gaining life. Necro is much more problematic in any deck than journal is. It's like oh imma draw 39 cards at eot? Ok I'll swing at you with my trinket mage and kill you, or you know just kill the journal or the necro.
Think about this:
With the right rocks you can have Journal and Necro out by turn 4 with all of your land untapped. With Oloro your life total is very possibly 48 at this point. Necro for 28 and put your self to 20 life. Your hand is going to be 30+ with your lands untapped.
In Esper colors that means you likely have 2-3 counters in hand. It isn't all that inconceivable that you have Mana Drain, Counterspell, Force of Will and Pact of Negation. With four blue sources untapped.
With 20 life at turn 4 it's usually unlikely that the board is going to be able to swing and kill you. So you really only have to worry about someone going off with combo or someone removing Journal (at this point who cares about Necro, if you don't already have gas in hand to win in a turn or two your deck doesn't deserve to win).
So unless you got extremely unlucky with the Necro pull or the rest of the table has the perfect hands you are virtually guaranteed to get back to your turn with Journal still on board. Even if it isn't you should probably be able to win on your turn so your life total doesn't matter as much.
Now think about this:
Even if you don't get Journal and Necro early, the deeper you get in the game the more life you have and the more cards you can pull off Necro safely. That also means that you will have significantly more mana untapped when you do make that huge pull. Esper control is a thing so tons of cards in hand + mana untapped usually equals win.
If you think Journal is a bad card that tells me you've been playing it in the wrong colors in conjunction with the wrong support cards. Journal + Necro is extremely good in the right colors with the right support. Add in a commander that allows you to add to your Necro pull safely and the combination is bonkers.
I don't run my deck as control, but I do run it with tons of life gain creatures and boosts. I have necro's for a bunch knowing I would get most of the life back just by playing a few 1-2 drop creatures and making some tokens.
Oloro is a fun deck, sure you can make it a boring combo deck, but it really all depends on the pilot. The mechanic is fun, and refreshing.
This is kind of funny: from what I see the argument is "Oloro is too good" but the issues consistently brought up are:
-Necropotence and Venser's Journal are overpowered
-Zur's Weirding and Embargo are good with him
Well, Necro + Journal can be in any deck, and Oloro only makes it a win-more situation (really, is that 8-10 more cards going to make or break a situation that says 'Draw20+, one turn you're weaker'? Oloro only is making the combo get counter protection and white for more tutors. Sharuum the Hegemon offers more to this, since she could recur a part and use another tutor (Entomb) to get the Journal out.
I'd say there's far more terrifying comboes in this list than Oloro deciding I can't have a nonland here or there. I still can use my General as much as I want.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
-C.S. Lewis
This is kind of funny: from what I see the argument is "Oloro is too good" but the issues consistently brought up are:
-Necropotence and Venser's Journal are overpowered
-Zur's Weirding and Embargo are good with him
Well, Necro + Journal can be in any deck, and Oloro only makes it a win-more situation (really, is that 8-10 more cards going to make or break a situation that says 'Draw20+, one turn you're weaker'? Oloro only is making the combo get counter protection and white for more tutors. Sharuum the Hegemon offers more to this, since she could recur a part and use another tutor (Entomb) to get the Journal out.
I'd say there's far more terrifying comboes in this list than Oloro deciding I can't have a nonland here or there. I still can use my General as much as I want.
My initial argument was more that Esper is really good and that Oloro makes it so that you survive longer to do Esper things. My last post was a direct response to a claim that Journal isn't good and that Journal and Necro aren't great together. I was just using Oloro as an example to refute that claim.
I think the main point of most people's argument is that they hate the precedent Oloro sets. What is to stop Wizards from continuing to create legendary creature that do things from the command zone now that they've done it once? Oloro's ability is mostly innocuous other than the fact that his color base can help exploit the mechanic. But maybe the next commander has a truly broken mechanic.
To many people magic is all about interaction and they don't like the idea of cards they can't interact with. Especially if that card is doing something powerful that you can't stop.
I think people are VASTLY underestimating the value of the life gain. I see so many posters here saying life gain doesnt matter since there are 50pt life swings quite often. While this is true, the 2 life gain per turn from Oloro lets me offset my mana crypt, dark confidant, ancient tomb, and the likes. I use my life total as a resource in a game of EDH and thus, the 2 life per turn is actually very beneficial.
I think people are VASTLY underestimating the value of the life gain. I see so many posters here saying life gain doesnt matter since there are 50pt life swings quite often. While this is true, the 2 life gain per turn from Oloro lets me offset my mana crypt, dark confidant, ancient tomb, and the likes. I use my life total as a resource in a game of EDH and thus, the 2 life per turn is actually very beneficial.
No one is aying its bad, they are saying being at the most life makes you the target often. You want to be playing 3v1 from the word "go"?
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
My initial argument was more that Esper is really good and that Oloro makes it so that you survive longer to do Esper things. My last post was a direct response to a claim that Journal isn't good and that Journal and Necro aren't great together. I was just using Oloro as an example to refute that claim.
I think the main point of most people's argument is that they hate the precedent Oloro sets. What is to stop Wizards from continuing to create legendary creature that do things from the command zone now that they've done it once? Oloro's ability is mostly innocuous other than the fact that his color base can help exploit the mechanic. But maybe the next commander has a truly broken mechanic.
To many people magic is all about interaction and they don't like the idea of cards they can't interact with. Especially if that card is doing something powerful that you can't stop.
That is fairly worrying. In the last set we got a general that grants an effect while in the command zone plus a general unaffected by the commander tax. Both of which work to slightly erode some basic tenets of the format.
It's the equivalent of Ajani's Mantra in conventional Magic. I don't even think my monored goblin deck has a problem with Mantra. And in EDH, you have infinite combos, infect, general damge, seriously, you should not have trouble reducing an opponent's life total to zero.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Don't forget about Embargo!
Uril, the Miststalker pokes his head out of the mist to say hello and to tell you that mazes do not confuse him like they do many of his weaker minded comrades.
Signature and Avatar by Inkfox Aesthetics
...Would the situation you're setting up be somehow easier to beat if it wasn't Oloro? The only outs I'm seeing that get wrecked by Oloro's lifegain but could get through the Maze and Propaganda effects is stuff like non-infinite Exsanguniate. And then, of course, there's always the question of why you aren't dealing with their field, since they've obviously got a few cards out.
Are you saying it isn't mediocre or am I misinterpreting you?
But I'm bias, I don't like the design choice of cards interacting with the command zone.
Probably because I'm old.
"In my day, the commander was called general, and he stunk! But we still played, in 20 feet of snow, with no sleeves. You youngsters and your command zone... Pffft!"
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Don't get too excited.
The second they make a general that says;
If ~ is in your command zone and has been cast 2 or more times each player must sacrifice a permanent at the beginning of their upkeep, I'll probably change my opinion.
Fixed for non-brokenness
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
I agree, but not because it's over-powered. Varying power levels are fine in EDH - it was never supposed to be a strictly balanced format.
I don't like it because the card was all too obviously designed to be a commander and only that. The fun of a commander deck is choosing a legendary, putting them in a new context than the standard game they were originally designed for, and seeing what happens.
A card that has been optimized precisely for the format wrecks the whole point of what the format is about, seems to me.
The same goes for Derevi with her command-zone-only ability.
Rafiq of the Many
Kruphix, God of Horizons ~ Geist of Saint Traft ~ Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
planned: Kodama of the South Tree ~ Patron of the Moon ~ Mangara of Corondor
G ~ ~ U ~ ~ W ~ ~ G
One thing I disagree with is your assertion that "he's not making any card stronger than it already is".
I've played Oloro since before the deck lists were spoiled (proxy obviously) and Ive tried a whole bunch of builds starting with pillow fort and now running life as a resource. Card draw cards like Greed, Unfulfilled Desires, Phyrexian Arena and all the black instants and sorcery are vastly improved by Oloro's life gain because their drawbacks are mitigated. Especially if you supplement the life gain. Sure life totals may not matter as much in EDH but having more fuel for card draw is powerful. Combine all of those cards and a Paradox Haze and I've been in situations wher I'm drawing around 5-6 cards a turn cycle while spending virtually no mana and losing very little life (sometimes even gaining).
One interaction that is almost broken in Oloro is Necropotence + Venser's Journal. These two combined are extremely powerful anyway but with Oloro you can afford to pull 5-10 extra cards on that first massive Necropotence with both out. It's a lot less risky to take 20 and go to 30 life or so then to take 20 and go to 20 or less health. That can make a shockingly big difference if you're doing it turn 4-6. It is really hard to beat a guy that has 30+ cards in hand that early in the game. Especially in Esper colors. Think about how hard it would be to beat a control player with 30 cards in hand and 80 or so life by turn 7 or so (which I've done). Oloro enables that more so then any commander I've seen.
What really might create a problem with Oloro is the life gain combined with his colors. Esper gives you all sorts of tools that make it difficult for players to get in for commander damage or infect damage. Esper might even be the best color in terms of disrupting combos (bant is right there with it). The colors and his life gain make it so that you often survive for a long time and in my experience in EDH the longer you survive the better chance you have to win.
Because of this there are many archetypes for deck builds for Oloro that all lead to Oloro consistently being one of the last decks in the game. Pillowfort is strong, aggro is strong, combo is strong, card draw is strong and he might even be the best commander for stax now. I would argue that the life gain element accounts for at least 40% of this effect and the Esper colors 60%.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
...Welp, that's a card I need to find. At the very least, I'll have to test it out; it may draw more hate than it's worth, but that's going to remain to be seen.
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Worship the Dragon
Regarding any commander: If you keep their stuff locked down/countered/killed, you don't have anything to worry about. That's the whole premise of control decks. While I'm perfectly ok with Oloro as a card that exists, this is not a viewpoint to support it.
In any case, the biggest problem I have with Oloro is missed triggers. It's gonna take me ages to get used to having a trigger on the first upkeep of the game.
Good lord yes. I built an Oloro deck and found myself doing more during my upkeep than some of my decks do over their entire turn.
Think about this:
With the right rocks you can have Journal and Necro out by turn 4 with all of your land untapped. With Oloro your life total is very possibly 48 at this point. Necro for 28 and put your self to 20 life. Your hand is going to be 30+ with your lands untapped.
In Esper colors that means you likely have 2-3 counters in hand. It isn't all that inconceivable that you have Mana Drain, Counterspell, Force of Will and Pact of Negation. With four blue sources untapped.
With 20 life at turn 4 it's usually unlikely that the board is going to be able to swing and kill you. So you really only have to worry about someone going off with combo or someone removing Journal (at this point who cares about Necro, if you don't already have gas in hand to win in a turn or two your deck doesn't deserve to win).
So unless you got extremely unlucky with the Necro pull or the rest of the table has the perfect hands you are virtually guaranteed to get back to your turn with Journal still on board. Even if it isn't you should probably be able to win on your turn so your life total doesn't matter as much.
Now think about this:
Even if you don't get Journal and Necro early, the deeper you get in the game the more life you have and the more cards you can pull off Necro safely. That also means that you will have significantly more mana untapped when you do make that huge pull. Esper control is a thing so tons of cards in hand + mana untapped usually equals win.
If you think Journal is a bad card that tells me you've been playing it in the wrong colors in conjunction with the wrong support cards. Journal + Necro is extremely good in the right colors with the right support. Add in a commander that allows you to add to your Necro pull safely and the combination is bonkers.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Oloro is a fun deck, sure you can make it a boring combo deck, but it really all depends on the pilot. The mechanic is fun, and refreshing.
EDH Decks:
B Toshiro Umezawa B
W Mikaeus, the Lunarch W
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born BU
BGU The Mimeoplasm UGB
GUW Rubinia Soulsinger WUG
GRB Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper BRG
-Necropotence and Venser's Journal are overpowered
-Zur's Weirding and Embargo are good with him
Well, Necro + Journal can be in any deck, and Oloro only makes it a win-more situation (really, is that 8-10 more cards going to make or break a situation that says 'Draw20+, one turn you're weaker'? Oloro only is making the combo get counter protection and white for more tutors. Sharuum the Hegemon offers more to this, since she could recur a part and use another tutor (Entomb) to get the Journal out.
As for the Weirding/Embargo: these are both good without Oloro in EDH since you start with 40 life (extra because you are in good colors for control/lifegain). All Oloro does is take the drawback off one and give a free instance on the other, but there's plenty of other backbreaking general + card combos out there. To name a few:
-Sharuum + Sculpting Steel
-Any general that is black and makes at least one creature a turn + Contamination (Chainer could work, but let's pick Nath of the Gilt-Leaf for EWitness and green goodies)
-Jhoira of the Ghitu + Decree of Annihilation/Eldrazi
-Hokori, Dust Drinker + Kismet
-Glissa the Traitor + Executioner's Capsule
-Prossh, Skyraider of Kher + Ogre Battledriver/Shared Animosity
I'd say there's far more terrifying comboes in this list than Oloro deciding I can't have a nonland here or there. I still can use my General as much as I want.
-C.S. Lewis
EDH
Obzedat - Still Alive
Retired - Nicol Bolas
My initial argument was more that Esper is really good and that Oloro makes it so that you survive longer to do Esper things. My last post was a direct response to a claim that Journal isn't good and that Journal and Necro aren't great together. I was just using Oloro as an example to refute that claim.
I think the main point of most people's argument is that they hate the precedent Oloro sets. What is to stop Wizards from continuing to create legendary creature that do things from the command zone now that they've done it once? Oloro's ability is mostly innocuous other than the fact that his color base can help exploit the mechanic. But maybe the next commander has a truly broken mechanic.
To many people magic is all about interaction and they don't like the idea of cards they can't interact with. Especially if that card is doing something powerful that you can't stop.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Wanted Card List: (PM me)
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Ravages of War
1 Swords to Plowshares (Judge)
1 Land Tax (Judge)
U
1 Mana Vortex
B
1 Desolation Angel (Foil)
1 Guardian Beast
1 Contamination
R
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
G
1 Food Chain
WUBRG
1 Rohgahh of Kher Keep
X
1 Charcoal Diamond (Foil)
1 Fellwar Stone (Foil)
T
1 Temple Garden (Foil)
3 Mutavault
1 Kor Haven
That is fairly worrying. In the last set we got a general that grants an effect while in the command zone plus a general unaffected by the commander tax. Both of which work to slightly erode some basic tenets of the format.
The worst complaint you may have is "Why does this exist in a world of Test of Endurance and Felidar Sovereign?"
At least it can't sac itself the way Prossh does.
Seriously, though, get yourself below 20 life, cast Transcendence, Donate/Bazaar Trader/Zedruu the Greathearted.
On phasing:
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane for the awesome Sig.
Currently Playing- EDH
GGGOmnath, Locus of the LifestreamGGG
BBBShirei, Lord of PoniesBBB
UWRasputin Dreamweaver, Russia's Greatest Love MachineUW
UBWZur, Killer of FunUBW
UGWTreva, Princess of CanterlotUGW
RWTajic, Master of the Reverse BladeRW
RRRZirilan, How to Train Your DragonRRR
PDH Decks
Gelectrode
Ascended Lawmage
Blaze Commando