I see it pop up often now and felt like this needed a great discussion.
(a note beforehand: I do not want this to be a banlist discussion, for that, go to the official thread)
Has anyone used this card before in EDH?
If you did, how good was it? Did your friends/opponents see it as a huge threat as it's reputation makes it out to be?
I never used it because of banlist, but I figure out that in decks like Kozilek, Arcum, Sharuum and Karn this is a very big threat that allows you to end the game on the next turn. Not for being too Magic Christmas Land, but a turn oneAncient Tomb with Lightning Greaves followed by this the next turn is absolutely crazy.
I would expect it to be on par with Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary in terms of performance. 1 CMC higher is not a huge deal (it's still sun titan/lark recurrable), and in a deck built around an artifact-heavy chassi (20+, some would say 30+ minimum) I would estimate it dishing out something like 4-10 mana a turn.
Compared to Rofellos, the mana is also more top-loaded. Rofellos would be hard pressed to add more than 4 mana on T3 (assuming something crazy like T1 GSZ for Arbor), whereas Metalworker can reasonably attain an extra 8 mana by turn 3, and Mana Vault --> Metalworker T1 is not an unreasonable play. Lets not even talk about Mishra's Workshop.
Consider finally, that everything that charges metalworker up can be cast by the generated mana; with some rare exceptions. You can expect to dump most of your hand if you can untap with metalworker.
TL;DR, never seen it played (for understandable reasons), but if it ever got unbanned, I'd build a derevi deck just to play it.
I have a friend who didn't know it was banned and had it in his Karn, Silver Golem list. In the few games we played, he only cast it twice - the first time in the middle of a long game, and it got blown up before it lost summoning sickness.
The other game he had it in his opening hand, and on his turn 4 he vomited his hand onto the table, which was answered on the next turn by an overloaded vandalblast from the player to his left.
It seemed fine, but we never saw it come down on turn 1 or anything. We also don't play with infinite combos - it probably would be less okay his turn 4 included staff of domination or something.
I would expect it to be on par with Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary in terms of performance. 1 CMC higher is not a huge deal (it's still sun titan/lark recurrable), and in a deck built around an artifact-heavy chassi (20+, some would say 30+ minimum) I would estimate it dishing out something like 4-10 mana a turn.
It's worse than Rofellos, actually (not like that's hard). As the game goes longer and you play more cards, Metalworker gets worse since it relies on cards being in your hand. It is a potent card, obviously, but it has shown itself to be worse than Rofellos. Also, its vulnerability to two common forms of removal is at least noteworthy (artifact removal is pretty common in a lot of metas).
It is an extremely powerful one-shot generator though. Where Roflelf takes a few turns to get running and be absurd, Metalworker goes off and does a million things at once and then is usually expended (due to holding nothing afterwards). Those big turns can be super early and present a real threat. However, Metalworker very much produces a "if someone answers this turn, then I kinda lose" situation. Not sure how much that's worth, but there you have it.
I would expect it to be on par with Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary in terms of performance. 1 CMC higher is not a huge deal (it's still sun titan/lark recurrable), and in a deck built around an artifact-heavy chassi (20+, some would say 30+ minimum) I would estimate it dishing out something like 4-10 mana a turn.
Compared to Rofellos, the mana is also more top-loaded. Rofellos would be hard pressed to add more than 4 mana on T3 (assuming something crazy like T1 GSZ for Arbor), whereas Metalworker can reasonably attain an extra 8 mana by turn 3, and Mana Vault --> Metalworker T1 is not an unreasonable play. Lets not even talk about Mishra's Workshop.
Consider finally, that everything that charges metalworker up can be cast by the generated mana; with some rare exceptions. You can expect to dump most of your hand if you can untap with metalworker.
TL;DR, never seen it played (for understandable reasons), but if it ever got unbanned, I'd build a derevi deck just to play it.
thanks for the mention of Rofellos--I was unaware of that card and just bought a set
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Modern: Affinity
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Legacy: W Mono-White : U Merfolk : BUG Esper Stoneblade : RBG Punishing Jund : B Reanimator : RU Sneak and Show : GB Infect : RG Red/Green Devotion : RUG RUG Delver
People value it over Rofellos, and while Rofellos needs a specific build, with lots of forests/lands, how specific would your deck be to use Metalworker?
For instance, I've seen random people say they'd "play Metalworker in each deck" and go as far as "another auto-include like Sol Ring"
Any remarks on this? Or is this just it's reputation speaking beyond the card itself?
I'd personally love to try out Metalworker (in EDH) on occasion but my group is very strict on the banlist so it's out of the question. It's a card I'd definitely want to see pop and see how effective it is in this format.
I slot him in my Sharuum deck for 1v1, where he is not banned. I have not lost a game where I resolve him turn by turn 3. I don't see him surviving long enough in multiplayer, much less my playgroup, to make that big an impact in the game.
For instance, I've seen random people say they'd "play Metalworker in each deck" and go as far as "another auto-include like Sol Ring"
Any remarks on this? Or is this just it's reputation speaking beyond the card itself?
Reputation, certainly. It's not even close to that amazing. For Metalworker to really be that good, you need a large number of artifacts in the deck, so that you can actually be assured of hitting something when you activate the Worker.
That's kind of like saying "I'm going to run Rofellos in every green EDH deck I own!" when all of them are 3 color decks. Just not a brilliant idea.
It would work wonders in my Norin the Wary build, so many artifact shenanigans. He's not nearly as good as Happy Elf though, considering how you need to have artifacts in hand to be useful. Once you hit top-deck mode, metalworker will just whiff.
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If you're always worried about crushing the ants beneath you...you won't be able to walk.
I see it pop up often now and felt like this needed a great discussion.
(a note beforehand: I do not want this to be a banlist discussion, for that, go to the official thread)
Has anyone used this card before in EDH?
If you did, how good was it? Did your friends/opponents see it as a huge threat as it's reputation makes it out to be?
Discuss.
I played Metalworker before it's EDH banning. It is analogous to Rofellos, as previously posted. Metalworker differs from Rofellos in that it is a card that every EDH deck can use, as are the lands that power it out, like Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Gemstone Cavern, and Mishra's Workshop. While deck construction makes using Metalworker is more narrow than using Rofellos, metalworker is much more explosive, allowing you to drop permanents for what's normally takes 9 or 10 turns of board development in a single turn, usually turn 2 or 3. It also have Staff of Domination combo to tap down all creatures, put your deck in your hand, and cast that hue hand onto the battlefield. While most decks couldn't abuse it to its fullest potential, those that did broke the hell out of it. If all things were legal, you could theoretically play Emrakul by turn 2.
I can understand why it was banned though. The person who played one early and was left unchecked could be put so far ahead, the game is practically over.
I think the deck building requirements necessary to break it limit it's power enough for it to not needed to be banned. I also feel that Tolarian Academy was the line in the sand for what should be banned in EDH: if it's more broken than Tolarian, ban it, and if it isn't, let it rock. metalworker is not as broken as Tolarian academy.
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I can understand why it was banned though. The person who played one early and was left unchecked could be put so far ahead, the game is practically over.
I understand this criteria, and don't actually want to get into banlist discussion..
But can't this be said about Entomb + reanimation on Sylvan Primordial as well? Granted, these need two cards to work instead of one. (unless you calculate the chance of artifact sources in your hand as "extra cards")
What deck did you play Metalworker in and what scenario is closest to what derailed it's presence quickly?
People value it over Rofellos, and while Rofellos needs a specific build, with lots of forests/lands, how specific would your deck be to use Metalworker?
For instance, I've seen random people say they'd "play Metalworker in each deck" and go as far as "another auto-include like Sol Ring"
Any remarks on this? Or is this just it's reputation speaking beyond the card itself?
I can't speak from personal experience, because he's been banned since I started in the format, but just my two cents...
I don't think your deck would have to be an "artifact deck" for you to play Metalworker. Of course, he's the most nuts when your hand is fully stocked with artifacts. But... a lot of EDH decks pack a good number of artifacts. A few Swords here, a few mana rocks there... plenty of decks could see him adding [4] without a problem, which for his mana cost is really good, even if it isn't as OP as adding [14] and vomiting all your stuff.
Not an auto-include, though. Plenty of decks have a low artifact density, or wouldn't want to hold their rocks in hand just so 'worker adds more... your average deck with Green probably wouldn't want him. I have a few decks that aren't specifically focused on artifacts that I think I'd test him out in, though.
A lot of people have been bringing up Staff of Domination. I think it's fair to say that Staff being in the format again makes 'worker a little more dangerous, at least.
I understand this criteria, and don't actually want to get into banlist discussion..
But can't this be said about Entomb + reanimation on Sylvan Primordial as well? Granted, these need two cards to work instead of one. (unless you calculate the chance of artifact sources in your hand as "extra cards")
What deck did you play Metalworker in and what scenario is closest to what derailed it's presence quickly?
Lots of people complain about the degeneracy of Sylvan Primordial and you hit the nail on the head as to why. Any card that generates tempo advantage can become degenerate if not used as initially designed. As a 7 drop, Sylvan Primordial should normally come online by your 7th land drop. If that were the case, setting everyone back to 6 lands and gaining 3 wouldn't be that big a deal. However, doing so on turn 2, setting everyone else back to 1 land, and ramping to 5 mana is not what was intended when this card was designed.
Metalworker has different constraints. It is more dangerous the earlier you play it, as the more cards you have in hand, the more explosive it becomes. However, to consistently have than many artifacts in hand, you must go to extremes in the deckbuilding process to break one card. The hoops you have to jump through to make this consistently lethal when played early in my mind justifies why it shouldn't be banned. However, this in itself does not mean that players won't jump through hoops to make this thing broken.
I don't remember exactly when Metalworker was banned, but I do remember playing it in a very early iteration of Sharuum, where I opened up with Workshop into Metalworker with 3 other artifacts and 2 artifact lands in hand. On turn 2, I tapped Metalworker for 10, played Staff of Domination, untapped Metalworker and proceeded to draw all but 10 cards of my deck, netting infinite colorless mana, played Mycosynth Lattice, played my entire hand except for lands into the table, and kept using the 1: untap staff of domination to avoid mana burn. My table was 40 permanents (including Trinisphere, Tangle Wire, Smokestack, and Sculpting Steel clone of Smokestack) to each player having 1 or 2 lands, and maybe a sol ring on the table. It was unfair.
I won't say that this happened consistently or that the banning was warranted. However, Trinisphere was restricted in Vintage on the premise that it was "unfun", and I feel that this was done for the same reason.
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It's worse than Rofellos, actually (not like that's hard). As the game goes longer and you play more cards, Metalworker gets worse since it relies on cards being in your hand.
Um... my Karn deck frequently has a full grip (or more) late game. Admittedly, my Karn deck occasionally pretends to be MUC, but getting massive card advantage isn't hard. I can even simultaneously keep a full grip and lock down combat with Ensnaring Bridge thanks to Bottled Cloister.
It's not quite like Rofellos. It's almost the inverse. Rofellos gets better and better later in the game, but isn't that good until at least turn 3. Metalworker is different in that early game (especially before turn 3) he's completely busted, but later in the game he's often just Palladium Myr.
I never played with him, but I did play against him before he was banned. He was never that great. He won a couple games early on, but just as often someone had an answer to the early game threat. More likely he was drawn later and made maybe 4 mana a turn on average. Still good, but I was pretty shocked when I saw the ban announcement.
Alot of these stories seem to be "we answered him asap and he wasn't that good." A card that says, "answer now or lose" seems pretty good to me.
Yeah, he's good. Lots of cards say "answer now or lose". It's just that most of them have a high CMC and do it on their own. Metalworker has a low CMC, but needs lots of help.
Alot of these stories seem to be "we answered him asap and he wasn't that good." A card that says, "answer now or lose" seems pretty good to me.
He is good, but not 'answer me now or lose' good. He has no haste and can't do anything unless you are sitting on cards. Like I said hes very good, but not scary.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
ive saw people play him every single time that hes dropped t3 or earlier and lived to lose the sickness the person who cast him won the game pretty much on the spot, is he an auto include like some people may think, no, not at all, but any deck built to be able to abuse him can pretty much destroy at will if they get him early, his late game isnt super amazing, but his early game is so ridiculous that hes probably one of the strongest cards possible that can be played on its own prior to like t5 in a deck built to abuse it, as other mentioned roffellos does way more work late game, but he has a pretty significant period of ramp up where he can be answered, metalworker doesn't, hes out and can let you combo off t3 easy with a strong hand. is he the most broken card in the game? no, far from it, but hes a card that can win you the game pretty much instantly if you open with him
5 Color Cromat with tons of tutoring that doesn't reveal the card. Play a few classic playing cards, a couple Uno Draw 4s (Ancestral Recall eat your heart out), some basic Pokemon for defense, a Get Out of Jail Free card, and have assembling all five pieces of Exodia be your win condition. People will flip because EXODIA!? IMPOSSIBLE! NOBODY'S EVER BEEN ABLE TO SUMMON HIM!
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
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I see it pop up often now and felt like this needed a great discussion.
(a note beforehand: I do not want this to be a banlist discussion, for that, go to the official thread)
Has anyone used this card before in EDH?
If you did, how good was it? Did your friends/opponents see it as a huge threat as it's reputation makes it out to be?
Discuss.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
This is assuming you aren't running Voltaic Key, Clock of Omens, or Tezzeret the Seeker. Things start to get kind of crazy there, and soon we start to combo out. E.G. Staff of Domination.
Compared to Rofellos, the mana is also more top-loaded. Rofellos would be hard pressed to add more than 4 mana on T3 (assuming something crazy like T1 GSZ for Arbor), whereas Metalworker can reasonably attain an extra 8 mana by turn 3, and Mana Vault --> Metalworker T1 is not an unreasonable play. Lets not even talk about Mishra's Workshop.
Consider finally, that everything that charges metalworker up can be cast by the generated mana; with some rare exceptions. You can expect to dump most of your hand if you can untap with metalworker.
TL;DR, never seen it played (for understandable reasons), but if it ever got unbanned, I'd build a derevi deck just to play it.
The other game he had it in his opening hand, and on his turn 4 he vomited his hand onto the table, which was answered on the next turn by an overloaded vandalblast from the player to his left.
It seemed fine, but we never saw it come down on turn 1 or anything. We also don't play with infinite combos - it probably would be less okay his turn 4 included staff of domination or something.
It's worse than Rofellos, actually (not like that's hard). As the game goes longer and you play more cards, Metalworker gets worse since it relies on cards being in your hand. It is a potent card, obviously, but it has shown itself to be worse than Rofellos. Also, its vulnerability to two common forms of removal is at least noteworthy (artifact removal is pretty common in a lot of metas).
It is an extremely powerful one-shot generator though. Where Roflelf takes a few turns to get running and be absurd, Metalworker goes off and does a million things at once and then is usually expended (due to holding nothing afterwards). Those big turns can be super early and present a real threat. However, Metalworker very much produces a "if someone answers this turn, then I kinda lose" situation. Not sure how much that's worth, but there you have it.
Radha, Heir to Keld, Vorel of the Hull Clade, Kemba, Kha Regent, Vela the Night-Clad, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Barrin, Master Wizard, Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer, Patron of the Orochi, Oloro, Ageless Ascetic, Thraximundar, Roon of the Hidden Realm, Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, Marath, Will of the Wild, Teneb, the Harvester
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Short answer: it's worse (less broken) than rofellos. Arguably worse (in my build) as Mycosyth Golem.
More to come when I'm not in my car.
thanks for the mention of Rofellos--I was unaware of that card and just bought a set
Standard: UWG Bant Control
EDH: UArcum Dagsson
Modern: Affinity
Vintage: BUR Grixis Control
Legacy: W Mono-White : U Merfolk : BUG Esper Stoneblade : RBG Punishing Jund : B Reanimator : RU Sneak and Show : GB Infect : RG Red/Green Devotion : RUG RUG Delver
For instance, I've seen random people say they'd "play Metalworker in each deck" and go as far as "another auto-include like Sol Ring"
Any remarks on this? Or is this just it's reputation speaking beyond the card itself?
I'd personally love to try out Metalworker (in EDH) on occasion but my group is very strict on the banlist so it's out of the question. It's a card I'd definitely want to see pop and see how effective it is in this format.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
URGAnimar, Soul of Elements
WBRKaalia of the Vast
GGGFreyalise, Llanowar's Fury
WUBSharuum the Hegemon
RGWHazezon Tamar
RUWNarset, Enlightened Master
BGBVarolz, the Scar-Striped
BWBAthreos, God of Passage
RRRDaretti, Scrap Savant
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Reputation, certainly. It's not even close to that amazing. For Metalworker to really be that good, you need a large number of artifacts in the deck, so that you can actually be assured of hitting something when you activate the Worker.
That's kind of like saying "I'm going to run Rofellos in every green EDH deck I own!" when all of them are 3 color decks. Just not a brilliant idea.
Radha, Heir to Keld, Vorel of the Hull Clade, Kemba, Kha Regent, Vela the Night-Clad, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Barrin, Master Wizard, Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer, Patron of the Orochi, Oloro, Ageless Ascetic, Thraximundar, Roon of the Hidden Realm, Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, Marath, Will of the Wild, Teneb, the Harvester
If you did this, tell me and I'll credit you!
I played Metalworker before it's EDH banning. It is analogous to Rofellos, as previously posted. Metalworker differs from Rofellos in that it is a card that every EDH deck can use, as are the lands that power it out, like Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Gemstone Cavern, and Mishra's Workshop. While deck construction makes using Metalworker is more narrow than using Rofellos, metalworker is much more explosive, allowing you to drop permanents for what's normally takes 9 or 10 turns of board development in a single turn, usually turn 2 or 3. It also have Staff of Domination combo to tap down all creatures, put your deck in your hand, and cast that hue hand onto the battlefield. While most decks couldn't abuse it to its fullest potential, those that did broke the hell out of it. If all things were legal, you could theoretically play Emrakul by turn 2.
I can understand why it was banned though. The person who played one early and was left unchecked could be put so far ahead, the game is practically over.
I think the deck building requirements necessary to break it limit it's power enough for it to not needed to be banned. I also feel that Tolarian Academy was the line in the sand for what should be banned in EDH: if it's more broken than Tolarian, ban it, and if it isn't, let it rock. metalworker is not as broken as Tolarian academy.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
I understand this criteria, and don't actually want to get into banlist discussion..
But can't this be said about Entomb + reanimation on Sylvan Primordial as well? Granted, these need two cards to work instead of one. (unless you calculate the chance of artifact sources in your hand as "extra cards")
What deck did you play Metalworker in and what scenario is closest to what derailed it's presence quickly?
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
I can't speak from personal experience, because he's been banned since I started in the format, but just my two cents...
I don't think your deck would have to be an "artifact deck" for you to play Metalworker. Of course, he's the most nuts when your hand is fully stocked with artifacts. But... a lot of EDH decks pack a good number of artifacts. A few Swords here, a few mana rocks there... plenty of decks could see him adding [4] without a problem, which for his mana cost is really good, even if it isn't as OP as adding [14] and vomiting all your stuff.
Not an auto-include, though. Plenty of decks have a low artifact density, or wouldn't want to hold their rocks in hand just so 'worker adds more... your average deck with Green probably wouldn't want him. I have a few decks that aren't specifically focused on artifacts that I think I'd test him out in, though.
A lot of people have been bringing up Staff of Domination. I think it's fair to say that Staff being in the format again makes 'worker a little more dangerous, at least.
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Lots of people complain about the degeneracy of Sylvan Primordial and you hit the nail on the head as to why. Any card that generates tempo advantage can become degenerate if not used as initially designed. As a 7 drop, Sylvan Primordial should normally come online by your 7th land drop. If that were the case, setting everyone back to 6 lands and gaining 3 wouldn't be that big a deal. However, doing so on turn 2, setting everyone else back to 1 land, and ramping to 5 mana is not what was intended when this card was designed.
Metalworker has different constraints. It is more dangerous the earlier you play it, as the more cards you have in hand, the more explosive it becomes. However, to consistently have than many artifacts in hand, you must go to extremes in the deckbuilding process to break one card. The hoops you have to jump through to make this consistently lethal when played early in my mind justifies why it shouldn't be banned. However, this in itself does not mean that players won't jump through hoops to make this thing broken.
I don't remember exactly when Metalworker was banned, but I do remember playing it in a very early iteration of Sharuum, where I opened up with Workshop into Metalworker with 3 other artifacts and 2 artifact lands in hand. On turn 2, I tapped Metalworker for 10, played Staff of Domination, untapped Metalworker and proceeded to draw all but 10 cards of my deck, netting infinite colorless mana, played Mycosynth Lattice, played my entire hand except for lands into the table, and kept using the 1: untap staff of domination to avoid mana burn. My table was 40 permanents (including Trinisphere, Tangle Wire, Smokestack, and Sculpting Steel clone of Smokestack) to each player having 1 or 2 lands, and maybe a sol ring on the table. It was unfair.
I won't say that this happened consistently or that the banning was warranted. However, Trinisphere was restricted in Vintage on the premise that it was "unfun", and I feel that this was done for the same reason.
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I never played with him, but I did play against him before he was banned. He was never that great. He won a couple games early on, but just as often someone had an answer to the early game threat. More likely he was drawn later and made maybe 4 mana a turn on average. Still good, but I was pretty shocked when I saw the ban announcement.
I don't think anyone is actually "questioning" if it's a good or a bad card.
It's good.
But "how" good?
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Yeah, he's good. Lots of cards say "answer now or lose". It's just that most of them have a high CMC and do it on their own. Metalworker has a low CMC, but needs lots of help.