I am building a JUND Token deck and I have reached a dilemna.
I like Shattergang Brothers and I feel it is a very versatile general ( and one that doesn't just "win")
I feel Prossh, Skyraider of Kheris too abusable, too easy to win with BUT he provides a reccurrable token engine which is important because Shattergang is useless during top-deck mode.
My Question - Which would be better (more fun) to play and what cards would be an AUTO-INCLUDE in a Jund token deck?
Well, all the cards that synergize with tokens are going to work well with Prossh. Shatter Bros can use tokens as sac fodder but otherwise they have little to no synergy with cards that make token generators stronger.
I don't think it's really up for debate - if you want to make the "best" Jund token deck Prossh is your dude. The thing is, you tack "more fun" onto the "better" qualifier. What's going to be more fun for you? Crushing your opponents beneath a wave of tokens and triggers or slowly grinding them out with Shatter Bros activations?
I want to crush them with tokens (as it will be a token deck) I just feel Prossh is too degenerate. Shattergang feels like it can add control to a token deck which could really help with removal and that to me feels more fun. (I dont feel going Prossh + Food Chain every game is fun at all)
Prossh does what you want better regardless. You do not have to go combo with Prossh, but he is the better token general in Jund. Shattergang is resource consuming, produces no tokens, and is vulnerable to removal. Prossh can do the controlling quite well when paired with other cards like grave pact which you would run anyway so save slot by not playing Shattergang where you would have to put in more token producers.
Prossh is your man.
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"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
I feel like shattergang is just....... bad. Like yeah he has a grave pact effect.... but how often are you sacing artifacts and enchantments in jund? If you want a challenge and you don't want the table to target you, play the bros. If you want to win play prossh.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
I feel like shattergang is just....... bad. Like yeah he has a grave pact effect.... but how often are you sacing artifacts and enchantments in jund? If you want a challenge and you don't want the table to target you, play the bros. If you want to win play prossh.
Wait... so he has an amazing effect with the Gravepact ability, but because he has 2 other abilities that aren't as amazing that makes him bad? That doesn't make sense at all.
As far as which is better... Prossh 100%. If you consider the actual deck that goes along with the general it's not as clear cut. Prossh will always be a solid beater, a sac outlet, and a token producer. Brothers give Jund Control decks something in the command zone they've never had: grease.
Wait... so he has an amazing effect with the Gravepact ability, but because he has 2 other abilities that aren't as amazing that makes him bad? That doesn't make sense at all.
As far as which is better... Prossh 100%. If you consider the actual deck that goes along with the general it's not as clear cut. Prossh will always be a solid beater, a sac outlet, and a token producer. Brothers give Jund Control decks something in the command zone they've never had: grease.
I hate paying mana to sac something lol. So he's got two weak abilities (though artifact creatures give him flexibility with glissa) and a useful one.... and they all cost mana. He's like riku (same art) when it comes to mana requirements but less impacting on the game state. So yeah, he's bad, but he's not super good, which is good?
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
Shattergang Brothers is one of those cards that you really just have to play to believe in. I've been playing the precons (unedited) and it's been an absolute beating. It locks down the game until they kill it
Shattergang... Buck the trend. You can build him around his abilities, focusing on things like the gravepact and removal abilities, and I can see a lot of situations where he is going to really come out of the gates and surprise the people you are playing. I don't have the jund deck put together yet myself, but Shattergang is who I am going to go with myself. I think they are going to do a lot better than people think.
EDIT: Though I should clarify that I am not saying that Shattergang is better than Prossh, they clearly aren't. Prossh does give you a lot of things, a solid beater, a sac outlet, a token generator... He's tough to beat, but I think that Shattergang can be solid.
Prossh is so trite at this point. Play Shattergang Brothers for style points.
/hipsteradvice
Seriously, though. I think Shattergang Brothers has to be my favorite 2013 precon general. There's a lot of toolbox versatility in one card. He has a lot of potential. Prossh is very stompy and can be brutal, but I feel like he might be a bit of a one trick pony. Prossh wins games, but if you want my advice, I think Shattergang might be more fun to pilot.
My main dilemna is that I love Shattergang, dont favor Prossh, but I admit Shattergang would do better with more of a stax or controly build rather than tokens. Is there anything I can add with the tokens to make Shattergang shine as my general (I already have the obvious gravepact effects)
My main dilemna is that I love Shattergang, dont favor Prossh, but I admit Shattergang would do better with more of a stax or controly build rather than tokens. Is there anything I can add with the tokens to make Shattergang shine as my general (I already have the obvious gravepact effects)
Shattergang is begging someone to make a stax build primer. Be the one who does it. <3
Obviously I'm biased here. You should just go with whatever feels right for you. I recommend making a list or two with each general, testing them online and seeing which one you enjoy playing the most. Prossh doesn't have to be Food Chain combo and Shattergang doesn't have to be stax. Let your creative juices flow!
Yeah, I agree with Nodrog here. go with what you want, but by going with Shattergang you could end up having a much more unique experience or even a more unique deck, as you try to work or puzzle out the most effective ways to use them.
As far as things I would include, maybe cards that either go back into your hand or that you can return to play somehow, so that when you sacrifice them you can get them back. Genesis would be a great tool for reviving creatures you've sacrificed, for example. I am working so I can't dig up a ton of things, but I know I am probably going to try and puzzle out a list myself.
Maybe. I mean, really, Prossh is so versatile too that there are a number of things you can do with him. Kobold Tribal? Dragon Tribal? Jund Rock? Enchantment Control? Lando? Fling.deck? The thing about both of them is that they support popular archetpyes that haven't had good generals, but they are also so well designed that they open up a ton of opportunities.
I've been brewing Shattergang Brothers in my head for weeks now and having a hard time committing to a strategy. The generals really are very well built for the command zone. My hat is off to WoTC for commanders in this set.
I've arrived at stax as the most appropriate build for Shattergang Brothers. It's not that they can't be effective at the head of a ramp/good stuff ETB deck, or a graveyard recursion deck. It's that there are better generals in Jund for those approaches. Token shennanigan decks want Prossh, Skyraider of Kher or Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper at the helm.
The next challenge is figuring out which stax strategies to utilize...
I've been brewing Shattergang Brothers in my head for weeks now and having a hard time committing to a strategy. The generals really are very well built for the command zone. My hat is off to WoTC for commanders in this set.
I've arrived at stax as the most appropriate build for Shattergang Brothers. It's not that they can't be effective at the head of a ramp/good stuff ETB deck, or a graveyard recursion deck. It's that there are better generals in Jund for those approaches. Token shennanigan decks want Prossh, Skyraider of Kher or Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper at the helm.
The next challenge is figuring out which stax strategies to utilize...
Stax makes sense for him. I want to add more to that, though not in this thread unless the OP is interested in that discussion. There is a great primer for stax in any case. I think there are a lot of interesting ways you can take it though.
I've read all of the Shattergang Brothers threads on MTGS, cataloged all of the cards in the lists and considered the stax builds in particular. The stax decklists don't look particularly cohesive or effective. The planeswalker control one is just all over the place. The "haterade" build is pretty okay but missing some stuff that makes sense to me. It seems to just want to mess with all the things and then eventually win somehow. I dunno. Maybe I'll throw my list up after tonight. Going to play at Galspanic's for the first time. I expect it to be a painful experience.
I've read all of the Shattergang Brothers threads on MTGS, cataloged all of the cards in the lists and considered the stax builds in particular. The stax decklists don't look particularly cohesive or effective. The planeswalker control one is just all over the place. The "haterade" build is pretty okay but missing some stuff that makes sense to me. It seems to just want to mess with all the things and then eventually win somehow. I dunno. Maybe I'll throw my list up after tonight. Going to play at Galspanic's for the first time. I expect it to be a painful experience.
I am not sure if he has it posted up or not, but Phil has a rather frustratingly good Jund stax deck. I played against it some time ago and remembered thinking that I wouldn't mind running something similar. If he does have it posted up, it was under Adun Oakenshield (or at least that is who he was running then.) I don't think it could be a straight-across sort of thing, but it would be a great starting point since it is in the right colors and would have the stax framework.
Yeah. His deck is pretty ruthless. Perhaps I'm being too picky but I think the utility on Shattergang has a pretty huge impact on the optimal build. Also, it's not strong enough to just throw stax cards together and win. The deck is fragile and has to resolve Shattergang after you've locked things down. I'm starting to lean towards hand destruction and eventually winning with Rise of the Dark Realms.
Yeah. His deck is pretty ruthless. Perhaps I'm being too picky but I think the utility on Shattergang has a pretty huge impact on the optimal build. Also, it's not strong enough to just throw stax cards together and win. The deck is fragile and has to resolve Shattergang after you've locked things down. I'm starting to lean towards hand destruction and eventually winning with Rise of the Dark Realms.
lol, I just realized you don't live all that far away from where I do.
Anyway, yeah, I was more or less saying it could be a nice place to start, at least something to get the creative juices flowing.
I think you are right about how fragile it would be. Would definitely require a bit of thought.
I've been brewing Shattergang Brothers in my head for weeks now and having a hard time committing to a strategy. The generals really are very well built for the command zone. My hat is off to WoTC for commanders in this set.
I've arrived at stax as the most appropriate build for Shattergang Brothers. It's not that they can't be effective at the head of a ramp/good stuff ETB deck, or a graveyard recursion deck. It's that there are better generals in Jund for those approaches. Token shennanigan decks want Prossh, Skyraider of Kher or Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper at the helm.
The next challenge is figuring out which stax strategies to utilize...
Shattergang Brothers is one of those cards that you really just have to play to believe in. I've been playing the precons (unedited) and it's been an absolute beating. It locks down the game until they kill it
Last night we had 5 precons playing. One used Prosh and the other used Shattergang. Shattergang Brothers had the table locked down until it was answered. Night Soil is in the deck and it has some good synergy.
Thank you for noting that. I have, in fact, read the card.
Decks that exploit tokens play well with Sek'Kuar Deathkeeper, as it lets you turn every resolved creature in to a token at some point. Wood Elves gets us a land, dies to a Skull Clamp, or Altar, or whatever, and nets us a token which can then also die. Loops that involve creatures or creatures that like to enter the battlefield multiple times from the graveyard (Nether Traitor, Reassembling Skeleton, etc.) also like him.
Anyhow, I've derailed too much. Too the OPs initial question, I think Shattergang Brothers can have a place in a Prossh, Skyraider of Kher deck and Prossh has a place in a lot of Shattergang Brothers decks.
From a table politics standpoint they both have the potential of earning you early hate simply because their abilities are either mean or hard to disrupt, respectively. I'd go for Prossh if your meta is light on combo. I'd go for Shattergang stax if your meta is full of battlecruiser decks that overextend.
lol, I just realized you don't live all that far away from where I do.
Anyway, yeah, I was more or less saying it could be a nice place to start, at least something to get the creative juices flowing.
I think you are right about how fragile it would be. Would definitely require a bit of thought.
Rob and I are tight bros. from way back.
I wouldn't just through shatter gang on Adun with out some adjustments.
Hammer of p. would have to go in for sure. Turning your mountains in an artifact, mountain, creature is just bonkers. Rancor is in too, and probably a small salvaging station package. Glissa would work in the 99 there too. But on topic, the bros. Seem better for jund stax/tempo control, not token beats.
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The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
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I like Shattergang Brothers and I feel it is a very versatile general ( and one that doesn't just "win")
I feel Prossh, Skyraider of Kheris too abusable, too easy to win with BUT he provides a reccurrable token engine which is important because Shattergang is useless during top-deck mode.
My Question - Which would be better (more fun) to play and what cards would be an AUTO-INCLUDE in a Jund token deck?
EDH:
GRWMayael, the AnimaWRG
GUBDamia, Sage of StoneBUG
"A man is defined by his sacrifices rather than his gifts"
I don't think it's really up for debate - if you want to make the "best" Jund token deck Prossh is your dude. The thing is, you tack "more fun" onto the "better" qualifier. What's going to be more fun for you? Crushing your opponents beneath a wave of tokens and triggers or slowly grinding them out with Shatter Bros activations?
EDH:
GRWMayael, the AnimaWRG
GUBDamia, Sage of StoneBUG
"A man is defined by his sacrifices rather than his gifts"
Prossh is your man.
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
Wait... so he has an amazing effect with the Gravepact ability, but because he has 2 other abilities that aren't as amazing that makes him bad? That doesn't make sense at all.
As far as which is better... Prossh 100%. If you consider the actual deck that goes along with the general it's not as clear cut. Prossh will always be a solid beater, a sac outlet, and a token producer. Brothers give Jund Control decks something in the command zone they've never had: grease.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
I hate paying mana to sac something lol. So he's got two weak abilities (though artifact creatures give him flexibility with glissa) and a useful one.... and they all cost mana. He's like riku (same art) when it comes to mana requirements but less impacting on the game state. So yeah, he's bad, but he's not super good, which is good?
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EDIT: Though I should clarify that I am not saying that Shattergang is better than Prossh, they clearly aren't. Prossh does give you a lot of things, a solid beater, a sac outlet, a token generator... He's tough to beat, but I think that Shattergang can be solid.
/hipsteradvice
Seriously, though. I think Shattergang Brothers has to be my favorite 2013 precon general. There's a lot of toolbox versatility in one card. He has a lot of potential. Prossh is very stompy and can be brutal, but I feel like he might be a bit of a one trick pony. Prossh wins games, but if you want my advice, I think Shattergang might be more fun to pilot.
UAzami, Locus of All KnowledgeU
BMarrow-Gnawer, Crime Lord of ComboB
WBRTariel, Hellraiser StaxWBR
Annul is really good in EDH
EDH:
GRWMayael, the AnimaWRG
GUBDamia, Sage of StoneBUG
"A man is defined by his sacrifices rather than his gifts"
Shattergang is begging someone to make a stax build primer. Be the one who does it. <3
Obviously I'm biased here. You should just go with whatever feels right for you. I recommend making a list or two with each general, testing them online and seeing which one you enjoy playing the most. Prossh doesn't have to be Food Chain combo and Shattergang doesn't have to be stax. Let your creative juices flow!
UAzami, Locus of All KnowledgeU
BMarrow-Gnawer, Crime Lord of ComboB
WBRTariel, Hellraiser StaxWBR
Annul is really good in EDH
As far as things I would include, maybe cards that either go back into your hand or that you can return to play somehow, so that when you sacrifice them you can get them back. Genesis would be a great tool for reviving creatures you've sacrificed, for example. I am working so I can't dig up a ton of things, but I know I am probably going to try and puzzle out a list myself.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
I've been brewing Shattergang Brothers in my head for weeks now and having a hard time committing to a strategy. The generals really are very well built for the command zone. My hat is off to WoTC for commanders in this set.
I've arrived at stax as the most appropriate build for Shattergang Brothers. It's not that they can't be effective at the head of a ramp/good stuff ETB deck, or a graveyard recursion deck. It's that there are better generals in Jund for those approaches. Token shennanigan decks want Prossh, Skyraider of Kher or Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper at the helm.
The next challenge is figuring out which stax strategies to utilize...
Sydri's Magical Castle WUB
Chainer, Dementia Master: "Bring out your dead!" BBB
Riku Because Copying Decimate URG
Xira Arien, Jund StaxBRG
The Sylvan-Primordial-PlasmBUG
Trostani ComboGW
Vizkopa Guildmage - Peasant VariantBW
Stax makes sense for him. I want to add more to that, though not in this thread unless the OP is interested in that discussion. There is a great primer for stax in any case. I think there are a lot of interesting ways you can take it though.
Sydri's Magical Castle WUB
Chainer, Dementia Master: "Bring out your dead!" BBB
Riku Because Copying Decimate URG
Xira Arien, Jund StaxBRG
The Sylvan-Primordial-PlasmBUG
Trostani ComboGW
Vizkopa Guildmage - Peasant VariantBW
I am not sure if he has it posted up or not, but Phil has a rather frustratingly good Jund stax deck. I played against it some time ago and remembered thinking that I wouldn't mind running something similar. If he does have it posted up, it was under Adun Oakenshield (or at least that is who he was running then.) I don't think it could be a straight-across sort of thing, but it would be a great starting point since it is in the right colors and would have the stax framework.
EDIT:
Here it is.
Sydri's Magical Castle WUB
Chainer, Dementia Master: "Bring out your dead!" BBB
Riku Because Copying Decimate URG
Xira Arien, Jund StaxBRG
The Sylvan-Primordial-PlasmBUG
Trostani ComboGW
Vizkopa Guildmage - Peasant VariantBW
lol, I just realized you don't live all that far away from where I do.
Anyway, yeah, I was more or less saying it could be a nice place to start, at least something to get the creative juices flowing.
I think you are right about how fragile it would be. Would definitely require a bit of thought.
tokensdont play well with Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper
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Last night we had 5 precons playing. One used Prosh and the other used Shattergang. Shattergang Brothers had the table locked down until it was answered. Night Soil is in the deck and it has some good synergy.
Thank you for noting that. I have, in fact, read the card.
Decks that exploit tokens play well with Sek'Kuar Deathkeeper, as it lets you turn every resolved creature in to a token at some point. Wood Elves gets us a land, dies to a Skull Clamp, or Altar, or whatever, and nets us a token which can then also die. Loops that involve creatures or creatures that like to enter the battlefield multiple times from the graveyard (Nether Traitor, Reassembling Skeleton, etc.) also like him.
Anyhow, I've derailed too much. Too the OPs initial question, I think Shattergang Brothers can have a place in a Prossh, Skyraider of Kher deck and Prossh has a place in a lot of Shattergang Brothers decks.
From a table politics standpoint they both have the potential of earning you early hate simply because their abilities are either mean or hard to disrupt, respectively. I'd go for Prossh if your meta is light on combo. I'd go for Shattergang stax if your meta is full of battlecruiser decks that overextend.
Sydri's Magical Castle WUB
Chainer, Dementia Master: "Bring out your dead!" BBB
Riku Because Copying Decimate URG
Xira Arien, Jund StaxBRG
The Sylvan-Primordial-PlasmBUG
Trostani ComboGW
Vizkopa Guildmage - Peasant VariantBW
Rob and I are tight bros. from way back.
I wouldn't just through shatter gang on Adun with out some adjustments.
Hammer of p. would have to go in for sure. Turning your mountains in an artifact, mountain, creature is just bonkers. Rancor is in too, and probably a small salvaging station package. Glissa would work in the 99 there too. But on topic, the bros. Seem better for jund stax/tempo control, not token beats.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.