mine as well. something about a nightmare elk and chainer? and that one land us black players like to use...
lol, he who shall not be named
To be honest, I havent been as impressed by it in decks that want to utilize their turns 3/4 though as well as decks that dont have much for creature reanimation / abuse. Its still a good card but I still have most of my decks where it feels sort of odd in.
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To be honest, I havent been as impressed by it in decks that want to utilize their turns 3/4 though as well as decks that dont have much for creature reanimation / abuse. Its still a good card but I still have most of my decks where it feels sort of odd in.
i feel ya, if you cast it t3-4 it is just a magnet for removal. BH really shines once you have recurred it 1+ times. two lands is good, but 4 lands and beyond it just gets out of hand fast..
this card just has a special place in my hart because i had two at the prerelease and whip of erebos. need i say more?
Burnished Hart was selling for .17 at my local shop two weeks ago so I bought 20. I can use it in almost everything. It reminds me of Sensei's Divining Top.
It's a great card for any non-green mono colored deck and even most of the non-green two-color decks. Being a guy who swings for two and also ramps you up by two is super relevant. And yeah, sometimes he gets caught in a wrath. Meh, happens. So do mana dorks of all stripes.
The total 6 cost may seem like a lot to spend for 2 lands, however splitting it over 2 turns makes it easily manageable
In my mind, it's less "split over two turns" than "eats up two turns." It always feels really awkward in my curve. Also, something like Solemn or Sakura Tribe-Elder can block profitably the turn you play it, whereas you can't immediately defend with Hart, which sometimes matters.
this card is sick. if you aren't running green then you should be playing this card. people around here are using the 'it dies to removal' excuse but honestly if someone is going to waste a swords or something on this instead of my actual threats, by all means go right ahead!
If I was playing someone 1v1, or whatever, I'd Swords this guy in a second. Denying someone resources is, to some extent, dealing with their threats, at least in the early game. In the more typical multiplayer scenario, though, he's pretty susceptible to being collateral damage. I use Fleshbag Marauder to take out a T3 Animar, and someone loses their Hart they just played as well. Again, I'd really like it better if it could sac immediately or if dying got you some benefit.
Sure, I play it in my mono-B because it has a lot of "Swamps matter" effects, and in Mono-W because it's artifact-centric and needs all the ramp it can get. But I don't think I'd use it anywhere else.
It just feels super awkward trying to play it T3, use it T4, and then have something that needs 7 mana turn five. Being able to ramp two by turn five is something a looooooooot of cards can do, too. I dunno, maybe I'm just too focused on curving.
If I was playing someone 1v1, or whatever, I'd Swords this guy in a second. Denying someone resources is, to some extent, dealing with their threats, at least in the early game. In the more typical multiplayer scenario, though, he's pretty susceptible to being collateral damage. I use Fleshbag Marauder to take out a T3 Animar, and someone loses their Hart they just played as well. Again, I'd really like it better if it could sac immediately or if dying got you some benefit.
Sure, I play it in my mono-B because it has a lot of "Swamps matter" effects, and in Mono-W because it's artifact-centric and needs all the ramp it can get. But I don't think I'd use it anywhere else.
It just feels super awkward trying to play it T3, use it T4, and then have something that needs 7 mana turn five. Being able to ramp two by turn five is something a looooooooot of cards can do, too. I dunno, maybe I'm just too focused on curving.
i should have been more specific in my post. i rarely play 1v1 edh (to me its very combo oriented/dominated at a competitive level, which is boring imo). i totally agree with what you are saying about denying people resources; there are just certain decks you CANNOT let get up 2 lands on you so early in the game. but for multiplayer, i think the swords are best saved for what comes after BH. more people playing=you must play more conservatively with your own targeted removal. id rather let my opponent ramp and then swords the eldrazi/blightsteel or some nonsense down the line that will actually kill me.
I think playing relevant cards earlier and not overextending on land are good principles. But also, there's a tendency to look only at a deck's mana curve when trying to eyeball how much mana it needs, and the typical EDH deck has activated abilities, recursion, and also one extra card than normal in the Command Zone. Even in very pro-active decks that get on the board early, they usually have Sword equip costs, lots of draw, and want mana for Instant speed answers.
So, I would say that 50% of your deck being mana cards is not a bad place to start. If anything, most low-curve decks I see need to trim the land count to about 34-35 and then put in more ramp cards and small draw <3 CMC, up to at least 50% of the total deck. Business spells like Abrupt Decay are an important part of a deck, but they won't get you very far if the best threat you can put on the table on Turn 6 is Reaper of the Wilds. I think the biggest constraint in EDH is building for threats that can actually claim the game from the table in a reasonable time frame, say, Turn 9 or so. I can't name a single one that isn't either 1) the Commander 2) a so-called 'dirty' play (combo/MLD) or 3) extremely mana hungry.
For example if your win-con is Primal Surge or Warp World, then not being able to cast it until Turn 11-12 off natural drops will cost you the game most of the time, no matter how many opposing threats you answer in the meantime. Even in the event that every single thing is answered, literally, your opponents have the resources by then to stop a lot of win-cons that would've been quite live on Turn 8.
John, I understand your perspective from a slightly less competitive mind. I do agree with your post, but not for me. Turn 8 if that's how you win, you need to overview your deck again because before turn 8; you have to be pro-active and not durdle with 8 lands + 0 non-land permanents.
Threats are all perspective, and if you don't have enough removal or sufficient response to real cards like Reaper of the Wild, Planeswalker, Doubling Season, Aura Shards, etc. Your overextended mana means nothing if you aren't able to prevent them from progressing. We don't play like most of the people on the forums, so lets not pretend that we do.
EDH is about incremental card advantage, end of story. A turn 3 Wood Elves equipped with a turn 5 Sword of Fire and Ice can go all the way if you are playing bad players. Sure, it only did 15 damage, but that's 15 damage off three combat steps, 3 additional cards, and it also ramped you an additional Shock/Dual land where you were able to cast bigger spells.
Advantages like that win you the game not Primal Surge or Warped World.
Does no one play counter-magic or Wrath effects or mass bounce to counter Warp World entirely?
That's why you don't blow your removal on every threat, just important permanents like Dark Confidant, Some Planeswalkers, Swords, Leyline of the Void, Scary lands like Kessig/Gaea's Cradle/Academy Ruins. The key is to know your opponents strategy, and not to cast the wrong spell.
As much as people want to believe, EDH is a big mana format, it's not. How many games I've we've played where big spells have won the game? Outside of Jokulhaups, Sunder or any land destruction spell.
It's those small spells that lead you to winning the game.
I challenge to make a deck with only big splashy spells with excessive ramp. See how it does at Dans or any other playgroup.
Let's not mention typical EDH game because these people who have ave cmc of 6 don't have real games. It's just basic Magic you learn when you start playing.
*Fun is different for each person, and that means that sometimes, we play with a stupid robot elk.
Edit: Okay, lemme just say that 'win as fast as possible' or 'play Animar, Zur, Kaalia' isn't everyone's cup of tea. When someone posts an [SCD], they are probably looking for experiences from players who play in similar environments, rather than "your deck could be better and you should play a tier 1 general, and cards like Burnished Hart don't help you win, and winning is all that matters". So, yeah, some people play Burnished Hart with Sun Titan and have no fear of Armageddon or Obliterate.
i feel ya, if you cast it t3-4 it is just a magnet for removal. BH really shines once you have recurred it 1+ times. two lands is good, but 4 lands and beyond it just gets out of hand fast..
this card just has a special place in my hart because i had two at the prerelease and whip of erebos. need i say more?
I disagree. I think even just one use is a good use, though obviously more just puts it into happy territory.
I also got to Elk + Gift of immortatlity last night, and while it made me have nothing for the longest time, it was every bit as glorious as I had hoped.
*Fun is different for each person, and that means that sometimes, we play with a stupid robot elk.
Edit: Okay, lemme just say that 'win as fast as possible' or 'play Animar, Zur, Kaalia' isn't everyone's cup of tea. When someone posts an [SCD], they are probably looking for experiences from players who play in similar environments, rather than "your deck could be better and you should play a tier 1 general, and cards like Burnished Hart don't help you win, and winning is all that matters". So, yeah, some people play Burnished Hart with Sun Titan and have no fear of Armageddon or Obliterate.
I dunno. I kinda like to see how it works in meta's other than my own as well. It shows how versatile and portable the cards is.
Just play tested and imprinted the Burnished Hart on a Mimic Vat. I "only" activated it 3 times since it costs 6 mana total with the vat so I did it EOT when I didn't have to play any spells, it ramped me good... Yep. Keeping it in the list.
So you waste turn 3 and turn 4 to play two explores... Who cares? This guy is too slow and a dead draw any time after turn 3. Even in my mono black he fits so awkward into the curve. Playing him with sun Titan is cute at best. That's a really weak argument to justify spending a card slot on him
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While I personally haven't played with the Heart yet I have definitely seen its value. I played against a Kiki-Jiki deck recently that got crazy mana with a few copies of the elk. Obviously copying Solemn or a bomb would be better, but it got the player in a place to compete for the win.
On the other hand, the new Surveyor's Scope is way cheaper and can do the same thing (albeit only once). Thoughts?
It's only good if you're severely behind your whole table. It does nothing if you're ahead or on par.
Obviously, but when you're playing Orzhov or mono anything-but-green against green decks you get behind on lands a lot. I know it's situational, but it's a situation that occurs all the time.
Anyway, this is a whole different card topic. The elk is cuter.
Obviously, but when you're playing Orzhov or mono anything-but-green against green decks you get behind on lands a lot. I know it's situational, but it's a situation that occurs all the time.
Anyway, this is a whole different card topic. The elk is cuter.
Scope is invaluable in nongreen. Turn 3-5 is where nongreen can typically play it to catch up with all the green ramp players without losing a turn. So long as you can get 1 land you are at par and anything more is gravy. No tempo loss and the potential to profit makes it a solid card in all nongreen lists. It also lessens the impact of an early Sylvan Primordial on our mana base. The elk is so slow it'll probably never make the cut in any of my lists.
*Fun is different for each person, and that means that sometimes, we play with a stupid robot elk.
Edit: Okay, lemme just say that 'win as fast as possible' or 'play Animar, Zur, Kaalia' isn't everyone's cup of tea. When someone posts an [SCD], they are probably looking for experiences from players who play in similar environments, rather than "your deck could be better and you should play a tier 1 general, and cards like Burnished Hart don't help you win, and winning is all that matters". So, yeah, some people play Burnished Hart with Sun Titan and have no fear of Armageddon or Obliterate.
The different is it depends on the player on what fun is, and how you make it fun. Solemn and mana dorks can get there without equipment; that's not going for the win, it's just taking advantage of the situation. If the blue player has no blockers for 5 turns, that's 15 free damage you can get in. I know I'm a competitive player, but use logic explains my plays.
The best you can do is make the best play regardless of your situation; that's how I play. I had a game where I played my G/W Rhy EDH where I got there with General damage with Rancor on my general. By me simply attacking every turn for 7 turns with my general, I knocked out the blue player without any extra investment.
I like Burnish Hart. It is good in slower metas and where you are playing colors like Boros. I have it in my Jor Kadeen deck. Jor loves his artifacts and if I can add one that's going to help on more than one front, awesome. Its also nice because the deck has a lot of artifact recursion and things like Trading Post. I've even put the Burnished Hart into a Teysa Humanimator deck that uses Trading Post as a sac/discard outlet. The Burnished Hart helps me gain extra mana when I need it and later on can help fuel my Trading Post combo shenanigans. I also have it in a Grixis deck because it helps with color fixing.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I personally like this card a lot and have used at least 4 of them. There are decks I don't use it in though. Its not an auto-include regardless of your decks colors but that doesn't mean its bad either.
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My question for you, Bob is how much ramp is too much ramp?
Lets say you run 7 mana rocks, 3 mana doublers with 38 lands. That's already 48 card slots dedicated to mana. Don't you think that's too much?
No, I'd say that's about average. As an aside - which mana doublers are you running in a UB deck?
More to the point, it sounds to me like you don't run enough card draw in your decks. If you have trouble imagining wanting more than 10 mana, it's probably because you're not used to playing more than 1 spell per turn.
I think burnished hart is pretty sweet for this format.
My question for you, Bob is how much ramp is too much ramp?
Lets say you run 7 mana rocks, 3 mana doublers with 38 lands. That's already 48 card slots dedicated to mana. Don't you think that's too much?
No, I'd say that's about average. As an aside - which mana doublers are you running in a UB deck?
It sounds to me like you don't run enough card draw in your decks. If you have trouble imagining wanting more than 10 mana in a casual multiplayer game, it's probably because you're not used to playing more than 1 spell per turn.
I think burnished hart is pretty sweet for this format.
No, I'd say that's about average. As an aside - which mana doublers are you running in a UB deck?
It sounds to me like you don't run enough card draw in your decks. If you have trouble imagining wanting more than 10 mana in a casual multiplayer game, it's probably because you're not used to playing more than 1 spell per turn.
I think burnished hart is pretty sweet for this format.
my competitive deck doesn't really need more than 10 mana at a time and regularly plays multiple things a turn, so I'm not sure why you need crazy amounts of mana.
I may have to try burnished hart in my slobad deck, but otherwise I think it's too slow.
I made a fuss in Market Street Cafe about how I really don't like Burnished Hart. There are better ways to spend 6 mana, and you have far better options in colorless ramp. This does not fill any sort of void in any way at all.
No, I'd say that's about average. As an aside - which mana doublers are you running in a UB deck?
It sounds to me like you don't run enough card draw in your decks. If you have trouble imagining wanting more than 10 mana in a casual multiplayer game, it's probably because you're not used to playing more than 1 spell per turn.
I think burnished hart is pretty sweet for this format.
I don't play recklessly, you might. I play conservatively, and hold back for my future turns. When I play, I usually plan my turns in advance.
All my spells are really cheap, where 10 mana would empty my hand, and that's bad. I don't like over-extending for any reason regardless if I'm winning or not.
I run plenty of card draw in my decks; all of my decks have at least 12 even Azusa and Red/White. Some of the colour combinations make me run jank card draw, but it works out in the end.
You seem to not understand what the term casual means.
It's funny because my decks I've posted on here are from toned downed metas.
My decks use to be much more mean and all-in infinite combos. I don't play with those guys anymore, so I had to shift my playstyle for Galspanic and his friends.
I run plenty of card draw in my decks; all of my decks have at least 12 even Azusa and Red/White. Some of the colour combinations make me run jank card draw, but it works out in the end.
Not running enough draw just seems....stupid. How many people are out there who are happy to topdeck half of every game and insist that that's how it should be?
lol, he who shall not be named
To be honest, I havent been as impressed by it in decks that want to utilize their turns 3/4 though as well as decks that dont have much for creature reanimation / abuse. Its still a good card but I still have most of my decks where it feels sort of odd in.
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i feel ya, if you cast it t3-4 it is just a magnet for removal. BH really shines once you have recurred it 1+ times. two lands is good, but 4 lands and beyond it just gets out of hand fast..
this card just has a special place in my hart because i had two at the prerelease and whip of erebos. need i say more?
It's a great card for any non-green mono colored deck and even most of the non-green two-color decks. Being a guy who swings for two and also ramps you up by two is super relevant. And yeah, sometimes he gets caught in a wrath. Meh, happens. So do mana dorks of all stripes.
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In my mind, it's less "split over two turns" than "eats up two turns." It always feels really awkward in my curve. Also, something like Solemn or Sakura Tribe-Elder can block profitably the turn you play it, whereas you can't immediately defend with Hart, which sometimes matters.
If I was playing someone 1v1, or whatever, I'd Swords this guy in a second. Denying someone resources is, to some extent, dealing with their threats, at least in the early game. In the more typical multiplayer scenario, though, he's pretty susceptible to being collateral damage. I use Fleshbag Marauder to take out a T3 Animar, and someone loses their Hart they just played as well. Again, I'd really like it better if it could sac immediately or if dying got you some benefit.
Sure, I play it in my mono-B because it has a lot of "Swamps matter" effects, and in Mono-W because it's artifact-centric and needs all the ramp it can get. But I don't think I'd use it anywhere else.
It just feels super awkward trying to play it T3, use it T4, and then have something that needs 7 mana turn five. Being able to ramp two by turn five is something a looooooooot of cards can do, too. I dunno, maybe I'm just too focused on curving.
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i should have been more specific in my post. i rarely play 1v1 edh (to me its very combo oriented/dominated at a competitive level, which is boring imo). i totally agree with what you are saying about denying people resources; there are just certain decks you CANNOT let get up 2 lands on you so early in the game. but for multiplayer, i think the swords are best saved for what comes after BH. more people playing=you must play more conservatively with your own targeted removal. id rather let my opponent ramp and then swords the eldrazi/blightsteel or some nonsense down the line that will actually kill me.
John, I understand your perspective from a slightly less competitive mind. I do agree with your post, but not for me. Turn 8 if that's how you win, you need to overview your deck again because before turn 8; you have to be pro-active and not durdle with 8 lands + 0 non-land permanents.
Threats are all perspective, and if you don't have enough removal or sufficient response to real cards like Reaper of the Wild, Planeswalker, Doubling Season, Aura Shards, etc. Your overextended mana means nothing if you aren't able to prevent them from progressing. We don't play like most of the people on the forums, so lets not pretend that we do.
EDH is about incremental card advantage, end of story. A turn 3 Wood Elves equipped with a turn 5 Sword of Fire and Ice can go all the way if you are playing bad players. Sure, it only did 15 damage, but that's 15 damage off three combat steps, 3 additional cards, and it also ramped you an additional Shock/Dual land where you were able to cast bigger spells.
Advantages like that win you the game not Primal Surge or Warped World.
Does no one play counter-magic or Wrath effects or mass bounce to counter Warp World entirely?
That's why you don't blow your removal on every threat, just important permanents like Dark Confidant, Some Planeswalkers, Swords, Leyline of the Void, Scary lands like Kessig/Gaea's Cradle/Academy Ruins. The key is to know your opponents strategy, and not to cast the wrong spell.
As much as people want to believe, EDH is a big mana format, it's not. How many games I've we've played where big spells have won the game? Outside of Jokulhaups, Sunder or any land destruction spell.
It's those small spells that lead you to winning the game.
I challenge to make a deck with only big splashy spells with excessive ramp. See how it does at Dans or any other playgroup.
Let's not mention typical EDH game because these people who have ave cmc of 6 don't have real games. It's just basic Magic you learn when you start playing.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
Some of us play for fun*.
*Fun is different for each person, and that means that sometimes, we play with a stupid robot elk.
Edit: Okay, lemme just say that 'win as fast as possible' or 'play Animar, Zur, Kaalia' isn't everyone's cup of tea. When someone posts an [SCD], they are probably looking for experiences from players who play in similar environments, rather than "your deck could be better and you should play a tier 1 general, and cards like Burnished Hart don't help you win, and winning is all that matters". So, yeah, some people play Burnished Hart with Sun Titan and have no fear of Armageddon or Obliterate.
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I disagree. I think even just one use is a good use, though obviously more just puts it into happy territory.
I also got to Elk + Gift of immortatlity last night, and while it made me have nothing for the longest time, it was every bit as glorious as I had hoped.
I dunno. I kinda like to see how it works in meta's other than my own as well. It shows how versatile and portable the cards is.
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While I personally haven't played with the Heart yet I have definitely seen its value. I played against a Kiki-Jiki deck recently that got crazy mana with a few copies of the elk. Obviously copying Solemn or a bomb would be better, but it got the player in a place to compete for the win.
On the other hand, the new Surveyor's Scope is way cheaper and can do the same thing (albeit only once). Thoughts?
It's only good if you're severely behind your whole table. It does nothing if you're ahead or on par.
Obviously, but when you're playing Orzhov or mono anything-but-green against green decks you get behind on lands a lot. I know it's situational, but it's a situation that occurs all the time.
Anyway, this is a whole different card topic. The elk is cuter.
Scope is invaluable in nongreen. Turn 3-5 is where nongreen can typically play it to catch up with all the green ramp players without losing a turn. So long as you can get 1 land you are at par and anything more is gravy. No tempo loss and the potential to profit makes it a solid card in all nongreen lists. It also lessens the impact of an early Sylvan Primordial on our mana base. The elk is so slow it'll probably never make the cut in any of my lists.
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The different is it depends on the player on what fun is, and how you make it fun. Solemn and mana dorks can get there without equipment; that's not going for the win, it's just taking advantage of the situation. If the blue player has no blockers for 5 turns, that's 15 free damage you can get in. I know I'm a competitive player, but use logic explains my plays.
The best you can do is make the best play regardless of your situation; that's how I play. I had a game where I played my G/W Rhy EDH where I got there with General damage with Rancor on my general. By me simply attacking every turn for 7 turns with my general, I knocked out the blue player without any extra investment.
Every play matters in EDH.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I personally like this card a lot and have used at least 4 of them. There are decks I don't use it in though. Its not an auto-include regardless of your decks colors but that doesn't mean its bad either.
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More to the point, it sounds to me like you don't run enough card draw in your decks. If you have trouble imagining wanting more than 10 mana, it's probably because you're not used to playing more than 1 spell per turn.
I think burnished hart is pretty sweet for this format.
It sounds to me like you don't run enough card draw in your decks. If you have trouble imagining wanting more than 10 mana in a casual multiplayer game, it's probably because you're not used to playing more than 1 spell per turn.
I think burnished hart is pretty sweet for this format.
my competitive deck doesn't really need more than 10 mana at a time and regularly plays multiple things a turn, so I'm not sure why you need crazy amounts of mana.
I may have to try burnished hart in my slobad deck, but otherwise I think it's too slow.
My Saffi deck
I don't play recklessly, you might. I play conservatively, and hold back for my future turns. When I play, I usually plan my turns in advance.
All my spells are really cheap, where 10 mana would empty my hand, and that's bad. I don't like over-extending for any reason regardless if I'm winning or not.
I run plenty of card draw in my decks; all of my decks have at least 12 even Azusa and Red/White. Some of the colour combinations make me run jank card draw, but it works out in the end.
You seem to not understand what the term casual means.
It's funny because my decks I've posted on here are from toned downed metas.
My decks use to be much more mean and all-in infinite combos. I don't play with those guys anymore, so I had to shift my playstyle for Galspanic and his friends.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
Not running enough draw just seems....stupid. How many people are out there who are happy to topdeck half of every game and insist that that's how it should be?
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