Maybe they're afraid someone will try some stupid rule-lawyering BS without the "just", as in "the bottom of your deck is technically still beneath the 5th card from the top of your deck."
Why does Wizards think we want more combo enablers? I'm going to table flip when I get hit by Tunnel Vision after already getting hit by Unexpectedly Absent for 90.
But look at the bright side! Now you don't have to wait 90 turns to draw your general!
White gets a better Submerge? Madness! Hits all nonland permanents for WW in response any shuffle effect? Sunforger shenanigans as well? This is absurdly good. Get your copies if you are at all interested in the color.
Current design philosophy says that white is the color of not being able to "answer" things permanently, except like the odd enchantment or O-ring style effects.
Current design philosophy says that white is the color of not being able to "answer" things permanently, except like the odd enchantment or O-ring style effects.
I think.
Can't say I see any evidence of that. White is still the main color for exile effects and can do it to creatures, artifacts, enchantments, enemy color permanents, ect... (All of which have been printed within the last few sets so this color philosophy "change", if it happened, would have had to have been extremely recent).
The fact that it also is the main color for "tuck" spells and O-Ring style effects just means it can do any of the three methods.
I'm certainly not house banning anything. What options do you mean? Kiki spam? Ok, Kiki is good. MLD/Mana Disruption/Tax? White does it better. Draw? White does it better. Tutors? White does it better (though limited to artifacts/enchantments, Red's tutors are almost exclusively goblin based outside Gamble). Removal (of every single permanent type and mass removal options)? White is ahead by miles. Mana Production? Depends on the deck and cards in question but it's certainly arguable that white can at least do it just as well... Recursion? White does it better.
So what does red do better? What option does red have that you're assuming is house ruled out?
*Edt: And before this gets further, I mean "can't compete" in the "which color is best/worst in edh" not "can't compete/win" in a game. It certainly can win a game, that doesn't change the fact that red as a color is easily the worst in edh.
What are you even saying? Not only have I made it clear I don't have any house bans (and I've made it clear multiple times on this forum that I'm in favor of MLD), I even mention MLD in why White is the stronger color. You're really going to list the Red MLD spells and try and tell me that Red does it better then White (ie, Mr Armageddon/Ravages of War)? Not even mentioning that White abuses MLD better then Red. Or is your point the Wrath+Armageddon aspect of cards like Jokulhaups?
I think you just had a snap post with alot of misplaced frustration/accusations there. I mean "cuz we luv durdle and is pro at durdle, bro." really?
It's more being facetious. Like most people who are being facetious when they use the word "U" and "bro".
Whether you have house-bans or not, ok. But Jivan said red was stronger than White, unless you house-ban Red's good stuff. The question to that was, what stuff? The answer, that stuff above.
And I would say that "the stuff above" (ie Jokulhaups & friends, which aren't unknown/fringe cards, I was fully aware of them which is why I mentioned MLD in my first reply) isn't better then what White can do (at best it's comparable to Armageddon & friends) which still leaves all the other aspects of the game White is better then Red at. Again, how is Red not the worst color in EDH? That is after all what this (admittedly off topic) debate is/was about.
Wha? White is nowhere near the worst color. Red holds that title easily. White has plenty of brutal options (though it will gladly grab some more). It's still not as good as Black, Blue, or Green, but Red is a distant 5th.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
I wasn't arguing which color is the strongest. Answer might as well be - hopefully the color(s) that I am playing
It's just that Jivan said that Red was more powerful than White, unless you house-ban its good stuff. You asked what stuff. I answered with that stuff. Then I said that Red was top dog at powerful Sorceries. Whether that makes it a better color than White, I didn't say. Then I made a facetious statement about that stuff being house banned.
the playtest name was probably 'unexpectedly good white card'. just the fact that it can hit any nonland permanent and put it on top of the library for just WW is pretty solid. it reminds me of a weird version of oust. that said, i don't see people casting this for more than X=0 unless they are trying to troll somebody. the interaction with fetches or any search effect is just hilarious already, why spend the extra mana?
Sometimes games go long and/or you're short on cards and just need to tuck that game-winning permanent of theirs deep into their deck to stabilize. It's nice to have that option if you're desperate.
White is not the worst color, red is. Red's best stuff is conditional in this format due to big bodies, and targetting issues. It has the weakest sweeps, it has NO card advantage.
That being said, it's only a consideration when you are playing mono-colored, and strangely I'd state that Norin the Wary, and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker make up for a lot in this department. Both are excessively strong mono-commanders who win quickly. Those guys can make it at least comparable.
White ONLY lacks hand advantage, although it is more lacking in that department than red, who at least gets more 2 for 1s, and cantrips. White only gets sweeps really. Often, I avoid white commanders, so I can slide into either green or blue to nab a little bit of card draw and not fizzle. White is still VERY possible, but you need to collect some old, good, artifact draw spells. You also need things like Land Tax so you can utilize it for land advantage.(card advantage in a way.)
Once you have the right tools, it's just playing white CORRECTLY that gets annoying. White has to kind of sit a little, and build up, and not over extend. Can be challenging.
I do agree that blue could stand to get a few LESS awesome tools. They already have the silliest cards.
SCG is sold out of preorders of these at $10.00 apeice. I hope the hype dies down on these so I can get my hands on them.
I doubt it will. Maybe a slight drop if they don't get used in something like legacy, but then they'll spike up when the product starts being hard to find. I'm thinking of buying an extra derevi box just to get another copy (along with lots of other value cards). I'll see though.
I asked a bunch of people at my LGS tonight and they all said it was broken.
I would put it this way: red is the worst EDH color in general, but white is the worst monocolored option. White is great as a support color (way better than red if you ask me), but I'd rather play monored than monowhite.
What format are you playing because it's not EDH with that philosophy.
White is pretty much the removal, wrath, and bomb color of EDH. Not to mention white has access to humility and a slew of other hate cards that are effective at shutting down what everyone complains about. Red has goodies like stranglehold. Both colors have excellent MLD and token support/generation. Blue's definitely good, that's a given. Black is good for tutoring blue cards. Green is pretty strong as well. Id's say black is the weakest color even with the tutors.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
White is pretty much the removal, wrath, and bomb color of EDH. Not to mention white has access to humility and a slew of other hate cards that are effective at shutting down what everyone complains about. Red has goodies like stranglehold. Both colors have excellent MLD and token support/generation. Blue's definitely good, that's a given. Black is good for tutoring blue cards. Green is pretty strong as well. Id's say black is the weakest color even with the tutors.
I'm with you for removal and wrath, but white is the bomb color of EDH? What bombs are you talking about?
And no way is black the weakest. It excels at tutoring and draw, 2 of the most powerful things to be good at in this format. Red and White are bad BECAUSE they can't do those things. Black's only significant limitation is that it can't handle artifacts or enchantments super well (although it can still handle them pretty well), that it can't counter spells (but only blue can, really).
White is not the worst color, red is. Red's best stuff is conditional in this format due to big bodies, and targetting issues. It has the weakest sweeps, it has NO card advantage.
That being said, it's only a consideration when you are playing mono-colored, and strangely I'd state that Norin the Wary, and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker make up for a lot in this department. Both are excessively strong mono-commanders who win quickly. Those guys can make it at least comparable.
White ONLY lacks hand advantage, although it is more lacking in that department than red, who at least gets more 2 for 1s, and cantrips. White only gets sweeps really. Often, I avoid white commanders, so I can slide into either green or blue to nab a little bit of card draw and not fizzle. White is still VERY possible, but you need to collect some old, good, artifact draw spells. You also need things like Land Tax so you can utilize it for land advantage.(card advantage in a way.)
Once you have the right tools, it's just playing white CORRECTLY that gets annoying. White has to kind of sit a little, and build up, and not over extend. Can be challenging.
I do agree that blue could stand to get a few LESS awesome tools. They already have the silliest cards.
I'm sorry, but norin is not an example of red being good. "Lol confusion in the ranks" doesn't make the deck tier 1.
Anyway, it's really not up to debate. U and G are so obnoxiously powerful you honestly can't have a discussion about power level in any other color and take it seriously.
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The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
I'm with you for removal and wrath, but white is the bomb color of EDH? What bombs are you talking about?
And no way is black the weakest. It excels at tutoring and draw, 2 of the most powerful things to be good at in this format. Red and White are bad BECAUSE they can't do those things. Black's only significant limitation is that it can't handle artifacts or enchantments super well (although it can still handle them pretty well), that it can't counter spells (but only blue can, really).
Akroma, Avacyn, Emeria, any of the double-strikers in an equipment deck, Stonehewer Giant, etc
White is a great EDH color, possibly the best support color, adding usability such as exiling just about any permanent, a great slew of removal options, both single, multi, targeted, and non-targeted, and gives you great recovery and long term stability, and more than mediocre combo pieces, if that's your thing. White also adds great tutoring and token support, if that's your thing. White also provides excellent buffs, equipment support, and ways to get through it that's your thing.
===
White as a mono-color does have problems with card advantage, however, this is only true if you are of the mentality that you need to out-advantage the entire table.
You don't. Not every card your opponents draw is going to be aimed at you, unless you are trying to out advantage the table.
White has a lot of strength in its resilience. Having your stuff not die when everyone else's does is a different form of card advantage. If your opponents' each lose their creatures, they need to draw and ramp to make up for the card losses. If you didn't lose anything, then you are up in effective cards. Pristine Angel is actually really, really good.
Since white has some of the best removal around as well, you are capable of deterring attacks that come your way. It's the prisoner's dilema at its finest. Someone needs to eat your removal for the others to kill you, but no one wants to be the person that does it. It is more advantageous for your opponents to eliminate someone else first, then to try to break through your Path to Exile, Wing Shards, Rout, and so on.
White can also stop a number of combo decks with Silence effects, if that's a thing in your meta.
===
To this end, Unexpectedly Absent contributes greatly to white's slice of the pie in EDH, giving it another threat to would-be attackers, and adding another great removal spell to the arsenal of deterrents and combo disablers that white has. A great tempo card.
Why does Wizards think we want more combo enablers? I'm going to table flip when I get hit by Tunnel Vision after already getting hit by Unexpectedly Absent for 90.
But look at the bright side! Now you don't have to wait 90 turns to draw your general!
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
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Maybe.
:symr::symb: I hate your deck(Kaervek the Merciless)
Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Kemba, Kostume
Ka...Oh god that's not a good alliteration.Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Exiling isn't a hard answer?
Would learn my licks with a bottle neck slide
Current design philosophy says that white is the color of not being able to "answer" things permanently, except like the odd enchantment or O-ring style effects.
I think.
:symr::symb: I hate your deck(Kaervek the Merciless)
Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Kemba, Kostume
Ka...Oh god that's not a good alliteration.Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Can't say I see any evidence of that. White is still the main color for exile effects and can do it to creatures, artifacts, enchantments, enemy color permanents, ect... (All of which have been printed within the last few sets so this color philosophy "change", if it happened, would have had to have been extremely recent).
The fact that it also is the main color for "tuck" spells and O-Ring style effects just means it can do any of the three methods.
Obliterate
Jokulhaups
Devastation
Thoughts of Ruin
Ruination
Decree of Annihilation
Worldfire (not just house-ruled, but actually banned)
Wildfire
the list goes on..........
Red is the color of winning with one single Sorcery. White is second best at it, but Red is just top dog.
Oh wait a minute, MLD is house-banned cuz we luv durdle and W is pro at durdle, bro.
I think you just had a snap post with alot of misplaced frustration/accusations there. I mean "cuz we luv durdle and is pro at durdle, bro." really?
Whether you have house-bans or not, ok. But Jivan said red was stronger than White, unless you house-ban Red's good stuff. The question to that was, what stuff? The answer, that stuff above.
Red and white are no where near the worst colors.
It's just that Jivan said that Red was more powerful than White, unless you house-ban its good stuff. You asked what stuff. I answered with that stuff. Then I said that Red was top dog at powerful Sorceries. Whether that makes it a better color than White, I didn't say. Then I made a facetious statement about that stuff being house banned.
That's all.
What format are you playing because it's not EDH with that philosophy.
Sometimes games go long and/or you're short on cards and just need to tuck that game-winning permanent of theirs deep into their deck to stabilize. It's nice to have that option if you're desperate.
And White has Balance and Limited Resources on the ban list. Not house banned, actual ban, right next to Worldfire.
Would learn my licks with a bottle neck slide
No kidding. Can I move to his mythical format? I'd love for Red/White to be the top dog for once.
In other news, is anyone else excited to Sunforger (speak of the devil...) this spell up? I am! Should be a great time.
Radha, Heir to Keld, Vorel of the Hull Clade, Kemba, Kha Regent, Vela the Night-Clad, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Barrin, Master Wizard, Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer, Patron of the Orochi, Oloro, Ageless Ascetic, Thraximundar, Roon of the Hidden Realm, Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, Marath, Will of the Wild, Teneb, the Harvester
If you did this, tell me and I'll credit you!
That being said, it's only a consideration when you are playing mono-colored, and strangely I'd state that Norin the Wary, and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker make up for a lot in this department. Both are excessively strong mono-commanders who win quickly. Those guys can make it at least comparable.
White ONLY lacks hand advantage, although it is more lacking in that department than red, who at least gets more 2 for 1s, and cantrips. White only gets sweeps really. Often, I avoid white commanders, so I can slide into either green or blue to nab a little bit of card draw and not fizzle. White is still VERY possible, but you need to collect some old, good, artifact draw spells. You also need things like Land Tax so you can utilize it for land advantage.(card advantage in a way.)
Once you have the right tools, it's just playing white CORRECTLY that gets annoying. White has to kind of sit a little, and build up, and not over extend. Can be challenging.
I do agree that blue could stand to get a few LESS awesome tools. They already have the silliest cards.
I doubt it will. Maybe a slight drop if they don't get used in something like legacy, but then they'll spike up when the product starts being hard to find. I'm thinking of buying an extra derevi box just to get another copy (along with lots of other value cards). I'll see though.
I asked a bunch of people at my LGS tonight and they all said it was broken.
BBB Two Hundred Zombies BBB
Duel Commander
WR Tajic, Wrath of the Manlands RW
BGW Doran Destruction WGB
Commander
GUB Mimeoplasm, Screw Politics BUG
BR Mogis, God of Slaughter RB
RGW Marath, Ramp and Removal WGR
WUBRG Karona, Jank God GRBUW
I would put it this way: red is the worst EDH color in general, but white is the worst monocolored option. White is great as a support color (way better than red if you ask me), but I'd rather play monored than monowhite.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
White is pretty much the removal, wrath, and bomb color of EDH. Not to mention white has access to humility and a slew of other hate cards that are effective at shutting down what everyone complains about. Red has goodies like stranglehold. Both colors have excellent MLD and token support/generation. Blue's definitely good, that's a given. Black is good for tutoring blue cards. Green is pretty strong as well. Id's say black is the weakest color even with the tutors.
I'm with you for removal and wrath, but white is the bomb color of EDH? What bombs are you talking about?
And no way is black the weakest. It excels at tutoring and draw, 2 of the most powerful things to be good at in this format. Red and White are bad BECAUSE they can't do those things. Black's only significant limitation is that it can't handle artifacts or enchantments super well (although it can still handle them pretty well), that it can't counter spells (but only blue can, really).
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I'm sorry, but norin is not an example of red being good. "Lol confusion in the ranks" doesn't make the deck tier 1.
Anyway, it's really not up to debate. U and G are so obnoxiously powerful you honestly can't have a discussion about power level in any other color and take it seriously.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Sun Titan. Do you really need any others?
White is a great EDH color, possibly the best support color, adding usability such as exiling just about any permanent, a great slew of removal options, both single, multi, targeted, and non-targeted, and gives you great recovery and long term stability, and more than mediocre combo pieces, if that's your thing. White also adds great tutoring and token support, if that's your thing. White also provides excellent buffs, equipment support, and ways to get through it that's your thing.
===
White as a mono-color does have problems with card advantage, however, this is only true if you are of the mentality that you need to out-advantage the entire table.
You don't. Not every card your opponents draw is going to be aimed at you, unless you are trying to out advantage the table.
White has a lot of strength in its resilience. Having your stuff not die when everyone else's does is a different form of card advantage. If your opponents' each lose their creatures, they need to draw and ramp to make up for the card losses. If you didn't lose anything, then you are up in effective cards. Pristine Angel is actually really, really good.
Since white has some of the best removal around as well, you are capable of deterring attacks that come your way. It's the prisoner's dilema at its finest. Someone needs to eat your removal for the others to kill you, but no one wants to be the person that does it. It is more advantageous for your opponents to eliminate someone else first, then to try to break through your Path to Exile, Wing Shards, Rout, and so on.
White can also stop a number of combo decks with Silence effects, if that's a thing in your meta.
===
To this end, Unexpectedly Absent contributes greatly to white's slice of the pie in EDH, giving it another threat to would-be attackers, and adding another great removal spell to the arsenal of deterrents and combo disablers that white has. A great tempo card.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek