Another poster recently remarked that a lot of the new cards, specifically Tempting Offer, lead to broken and uncontrollable games.
The word that struck me particularly was "uncontrollable".
Which is a convincing argument. Honestly, people don't put Torpor Orb and Humility in their decks because they're curious to see how many clone and copy effects they can put on the stack at a time. Those cards are played because they allow a player to pace the game and play the sort of game that their deck wants to play. Basically the same with any real control deck in this format, and for the upper level tables in general. Aggro and combo want to clock out without being disrupted. Control wants to stop that from happening, while limiting the open-ended'ness of these kinds of plays and removing the rewards for playing passively. A lot of these cards only benefit durdle ramp, and the durdlier the deck and dumber the opponent, the better.
Honestly, the novelty of these open ended plays that the Tempting Offer cards stimulate is really wearing thin. It's formulaic in the extreme. Take some ordinary use card. Add any open-ended effect like Clone, Puppeteer Clique, Rite of Replication, Radiate, what have you, all of a sudden you have a light show that prompts ooh's and ahhh's from the neanderthals. It's shocking to me how repetitive that theme is while still being touted everywhere as the iconic "crazy plays" of EDH, repeated in column after column as if it hasn't happened before 100 times.
It's not ALL that's in the set, and there are quite a few premium soon-to-be staples, but it seems that when they design specifically multiplayer mechanics, that is the crowd they shoot for.
There are no "crazy" plays in EDH, just different variations of older ones with newer cards. People put way too much value in being "unique" failing to realize that it, like many things simply does not exist or matter.
I also dislike how bad players can 'ruin' a game. Sure we are playing for fun, even if we are a competitive group, but it's hard to have fun when other people's misplays cost you the game.
If you are playing football, and someone is terrible, you eventually stop letting them get the ball, or stop playing with them. Same thing with terrible players. They make the game no fun.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DCI Level 1 Judge-
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane for the awesome Sig.
If you are playing football, and someone is terrible, you eventually stop letting them get the ball, or stop playing with them. Same thing with terrible players. They make the game no fun.
On the other hand, if everybody finds said player's poor-form antics entertaining (including said player), then sure, I'll toss him a ball occasionally for a good laugh. Wow, this metaphor really doesn't extend out to different situations very well.
Yeah, there's a certain kind of player who will always, always take the Tempting Offer. And blow the game 90% of the time as a result. You can build your deck however you want, but you can't do anything about that player. You'd just have to play Blue and consider any of these cards "must counter" if you want to play control.
I find the tempting offer cards a great political tool.
Hey who needs creatures? Here is your chance
Guy dominating the game taking 20 min turns. Tempting offer everyone but him takes offer and beats his face in.
Its a great tool for the format that can change the presence of the game as a whole from one card. but at the same time completely controllable
i hate these sorts of cards. like i was saying in the other thread they make for degenerate gamestates without even trying. theyre so forced, and so powerful that games will end within a turn or two of being cast, and most of the time the players who run these things arent experienced and run them for fun, inadvertantly destroying games.
they need to stop forcing cards like these, and just design cards. let us figure out what to do with them.
I like the cards, really... but I guess it depends on the playgroup a lot. Going to give some a test drive and see what happens, I think.
(And really, when you're in the casual table I frequent, worst that can happen is that a game blows up in a hilarious way and we shuffle for another...)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
X Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile W Ghosty Blinky Anafenza U Nezahal- Big, Blue and HERE! B Gonti Can Afford It R Etali, Primal 'Whatjusthappened?' G Polukranos Wants More Mana WU The Exalted Vizier Temmet WB Home, Athreos WR Basandra, Recursive Aggression WG Karametra, Momma of Lands UB Wrexial Eats Your Brains UR Arjun, the Mad Flame UG The Fable of Prime Speaker BR Hellbent, Malfegor Style BG Jarad, Death is Served RG Running Thromok WUB Varina and ALL the Zombies WUBYennett, the Odd Pain-Train WUR Zedruu the Furyhearted WUG Arcades' Strategy, Shmategy, Sausage and Spam WBR A Case of Mathas' Persistent F*ckery WBRLicia's League of Legendary Lifegain Layabouts WBG The Karador Advantage PackageWRG Gahiji Rattlesnake Collection UBR Jeleva... does... things UBG Damia's Just Deserts URG Yasova's Has More Power Than Sense BRG Wasitora, Bad Kitty WUBRBreya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs WUBG Tymna and Kydele, Extended Borrowing WURG Kynaios and Tiro, Landfall Impersonations WBRG Saskia Pet Card EnchantressUBRG Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation WUBRG Tazri's Amazing Allies
Every one of these except the green one is undone by any of the 50+ wrath variants available in the format. Please explain how that is "uncontrollable."
I see Tempt with Discovery particularly becoming an immediate format staple, numerous threads complaining about it, people being told repeatedly in game and out of game not to take the offer, then the card still surviving as a Reap and Sow even after everyone has figured it out.
I see Tempt with Discovery particularly becoming an immediate format staple, numerous threads complaining about it, people being told repeatedly in game and out of game not to take the offer, then the card still surviving as a Reap and Sow even after everyone has figured it out.
Every one of these except the green one is undone by any of the 50+ wrath variants available in the format. Please explain how that is "uncontrollable."
It must be fun to play in a Craw Wurm only area. Lots of us play creatures with abilities though.
I don't get the hatred here. If everyone cooperates, one player becomes scary. If no one cooperates, no one becomes scary. If everyone but you cooperate, you're probably going to die.
It's like a multiplayer variant of the Prisoner's Dilemma. The choice you want to make will vary greatly depending on board state, making this quite a skill-intensive card.
Chaos can definitely be fun in small doses. I don't think you're really this closed-minded. Fun is different for everyone and you know it.
Which brings me to my point about Tempting Offer: It's a fantastic political mechanic. It's complex and many times the right answer is going to be to accept the offer either to dogpile a winning player or to just get yourself back in the game. The reanimator one in particular is great because the first creature brought back will be the best one, so subsequent accepted offers don't really have has high a price as the caster gets diminishing returns on those offers as the creatures remaining in his graveyard get worse and worse. I have a feeling these cards will be cast more than once in our playgroup.
I don't get the hatred here. If everyone cooperates, one player becomes scary. If no one cooperates, no one becomes scary. If everyone but you cooperate, you're probably going to die.
It's like a multiplayer variant of the Prisoner's Dilemma. The choice you want to make will vary greatly depending on board state, making this quite a skill-intensive card.
Mixing in the term skill-inensive with durdle-ramp opens up a chasm of dispute though. It's saying that in games that are decided by errant attacks, random unanticipated effects, and the incidental rewards of passive play, somehow someone is making skill-oriented decisions. Maybe someone is intentionally playing down with their deck, but more than likely, random stuff is random.
If I'm playing Aggro, I don't want to take the option because whatever happens is going to block or kill my dudes. If I'm playing Combo, I don't care what happens, but if I'm playing in an area where the games go long enough for something game ending to result, I am probably being booted from this game when it's over regardless of how long it takes me to combo off. And finally if I'm playing Control, I don't want anyone to take the option because whatever happens I'm going to have to control.
So provided everyone at the table is actually playing a strategy, these cards make no sense. It's only in the event that one guy wants to play a strategy and everyone else at the table wants to durdle-ramp that these cards amplify the rewards of passive, dawdling play. They discourage the development of strategy and counter-strategy, while rewarding the greater volume of 7-drops with ETB effects and other cards that don't affect anything until Turn 10.
The exact problem is that no one can strategize or make skill-oriented decisions around these cards, just benefit randomly in proportion to how passively they design their deck and how low of a threat at a table they are.
Tempting Offer is an awesome keyword for multiplayer EDH, precisely because different people react differently to such spells. That makes the game interesting: Chaos and politics. If people want things to be predictable, read a textbook, but these multi-player cards are all about plot twists, we need more of it.
The exact problem is that no one can strategize or make skill-oriented decisions around these cards, just benefit randomly in proportion to how passively they design their deck and how low of a threat at a table they are.
Sounds like a card that I have to wait until the right moment to cast... Almost like there's a decision there that will affect how much this card benefits me.
Can you define what you mean when you say a deck is passive and why this is a strategy to be ridiculed? I don't really understand how "passive" lines up with trying to get a big play off of a tempting offer. Seems the opposite of passive.
On passive v non-passive, these cards raise 2 questions, one on each side of the board - 1) Do I ever need to double up on an effect so badly that I don't mind giving my opponents something? 2) Do I ever want to opt into an effect that another player chose for their deck?
If the baseline, active strategy of a deck works, then the answer to either is No. If it's a ramp into who knows what, I don't care what game state I'm in deck, then possibly Yes.
On passive v non-passive, these cards raise 2 questions, one on each side of the board - 1) Do I ever need to double up on an effect so badly that I don't mind giving my opponents something? 2) Do I ever want to opt into an effect that another player chose for their deck?
If the baseline, active strategy of a deck works, then the answer to either is No. If it's a ramp into who knows what, I don't care what game state I'm in deck, then possibly Yes.
In a vacuum your analysis is pretty good but when you factor the existing board state in your card evaluation has to change. Some of the cards with this mechanic allow two or more players to recover from a poor position at once and turn the game around on that guy taking 10-minute turns counting his ETB effects on an abacus. Furthermore the caster is rewarded moreso than anyone else who takes part in it.
Take the red one. The player with a dominant board position taps out with a commanding board state. Next player untaps and taps out for Tempt with Vengeance. Uh-oh! This card lets everyone dogpile that player with maybe 30 total 1/1s or more. Can he withstand the attacks? I'd say the caster of the spell is in pretty good shape now (say this is a 4P game, he now has as many 1/1s as everyone else combined). That is massive reach for the mana. You can't get that kind of value out of Firecat Blitz and that is saying something!
I'm not trying to say Tempt with Vengeance is better than Firecat Blitz... but there are times where it will be a better card and those scenarios aren't exactly hard to dream up. Multiplayer is full of opportunities for the weaker players to rally together and defeat the strong player (and afterwards, fight it out themselves). This is not only multiplayer magic at its most "Magical", but it's nice to have some cards that enable it not be just bad cards. This is a pretty big upgrade over Join Forces
On passive v non-passive, these cards raise 2 questions, one on each side of the board - 1) Do I ever need to double up on an effect so badly that I don't mind giving my opponents something? 2) Do I ever want to opt into an effect that another player chose for their deck?
If the baseline, active strategy of a deck works, then the answer to either is No. If it's a ramp into who knows what, I don't care what game state I'm in deck, then possibly Yes.
I think that's a gross, gross oversimplification. What if the baseline strategy of my deck is self mill into Living Death/variants? Might I consider running Tempt with Immortality, since I'm obviously set up to deal with my opponents bringing cards back from the graveyard? What if my baseline strategy is token swarm, utilizing things like Marton Stromgald to boost them to ridiculous effectiveness? Would I consider things like Tempt with Vengence, especially if I have a way to give my dudes trample? Both of those are strategies that are active, and can be the basis of a deck, and both care about the game state heavily, but could still put the mechanic to good use.
My main concern with the tempting offer cards is that the offer is stupidly obvious when one guy is winning. All of a sudden, 2 strip mines and a wasteland, or 3 fatties, or some other effect that is ridiculously undercosted for the effect. Teaming up becomes too easy. Maybe good, maybe bad, but they're just not interesting enough, to me, for such an effect to be in the game.
On top of that, it will probably be the casual/budget players that run them, and then they're playing kingmaker without knowing it. Super awesome.
The word that struck me particularly was "uncontrollable".
Which is a convincing argument. Honestly, people don't put Torpor Orb and Humility in their decks because they're curious to see how many clone and copy effects they can put on the stack at a time. Those cards are played because they allow a player to pace the game and play the sort of game that their deck wants to play. Basically the same with any real control deck in this format, and for the upper level tables in general. Aggro and combo want to clock out without being disrupted. Control wants to stop that from happening, while limiting the open-ended'ness of these kinds of plays and removing the rewards for playing passively. A lot of these cards only benefit durdle ramp, and the durdlier the deck and dumber the opponent, the better.
Honestly, the novelty of these open ended plays that the Tempting Offer cards stimulate is really wearing thin. It's formulaic in the extreme. Take some ordinary use card. Add any open-ended effect like Clone, Puppeteer Clique, Rite of Replication, Radiate, what have you, all of a sudden you have a light show that prompts ooh's and ahhh's from the neanderthals. It's shocking to me how repetitive that theme is while still being touted everywhere as the iconic "crazy plays" of EDH, repeated in column after column as if it hasn't happened before 100 times.
It's not ALL that's in the set, and there are quite a few premium soon-to-be staples, but it seems that when they design specifically multiplayer mechanics, that is the crowd they shoot for.
But hey, maybe I'm just an EDH Nihilist.
I also dislike how bad players can 'ruin' a game. Sure we are playing for fun, even if we are a competitive group, but it's hard to have fun when other people's misplays cost you the game.
If you are playing football, and someone is terrible, you eventually stop letting them get the ball, or stop playing with them. Same thing with terrible players. They make the game no fun.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane for the awesome Sig.
Currently Playing- EDH
GGGOmnath, Locus of the LifestreamGGG
BBBShirei, Lord of PoniesBBB
UWRasputin Dreamweaver, Russia's Greatest Love MachineUW
UBWZur, Killer of FunUBW
UGWTreva, Princess of CanterlotUGW
RWTajic, Master of the Reverse BladeRW
RRRZirilan, How to Train Your DragonRRR
PDH Decks
Gelectrode
Ascended Lawmage
Blaze Commando
On the other hand, if everybody finds said player's poor-form antics entertaining (including said player), then sure, I'll toss him a ball occasionally for a good laugh. Wow, this metaphor really doesn't extend out to different situations very well.
Hey who needs creatures? Here is your chance
Guy dominating the game taking 20 min turns. Tempting offer everyone but him takes offer and beats his face in.
Its a great tool for the format that can change the presence of the game as a whole from one card. but at the same time completely controllable
BURPerfectly Suited to Mindless Carnage, ThraximundarRUB
URBOckham's Mindrazer = Nekusar the MindrazerBRU
UBRMarchsea makes all the Men do Stupid ThingsRBU
GWBThe Best Offense is Defense, Doran 2.0BWG
XRDaretti, Artifact ShenanigansRX
RKrenko the Don of the Goblin MobR
GFreyalise and Elves have pet HydrasG
WArmy of the Heavens, Lead by the Angel of HopeW
BDrana, The Removal BloodchiefB
UAzami, Knowledge is PowerU
WBDaxos is Enchanting Enchantments to Enchant more EnchantsBW
GRI got 99 Permanents but Primal Surge ain't One, Ruric TharRG
GBNel Thot's Sacrificial SwarmBG
WRWifey's Wrath - Gisela Blade of GoldnightRW
WUPillowfort Tron - BrunaUW
XXThe TriadXX
Do you have what it takes to survive?
they need to stop forcing cards like these, and just design cards. let us figure out what to do with them.
(And really, when you're in the casual table I frequent, worst that can happen is that a game blows up in a hilarious way and we shuffle for another...)
Variance is a good thing
Your definition of fun is strange. Chaos is never fun.
A strictly worse Reap and Sow? Oh, the humanity!
It must be fun to play in a Craw Wurm only area. Lots of us play creatures with abilities though.
Never is a strong word
I can definitely see how it could get tiresome if game after game is just random
That being said having the option is better than not having an option
It's like a multiplayer variant of the Prisoner's Dilemma. The choice you want to make will vary greatly depending on board state, making this quite a skill-intensive card.
You haven't lived until you've cast Strategy, Schmategy and rolled a 6.
Chaos can definitely be fun in small doses. I don't think you're really this closed-minded. Fun is different for everyone and you know it.
Which brings me to my point about Tempting Offer: It's a fantastic political mechanic. It's complex and many times the right answer is going to be to accept the offer either to dogpile a winning player or to just get yourself back in the game. The reanimator one in particular is great because the first creature brought back will be the best one, so subsequent accepted offers don't really have has high a price as the caster gets diminishing returns on those offers as the creatures remaining in his graveyard get worse and worse. I have a feeling these cards will be cast more than once in our playgroup.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Mixing in the term skill-inensive with durdle-ramp opens up a chasm of dispute though. It's saying that in games that are decided by errant attacks, random unanticipated effects, and the incidental rewards of passive play, somehow someone is making skill-oriented decisions. Maybe someone is intentionally playing down with their deck, but more than likely, random stuff is random.
If I'm playing Aggro, I don't want to take the option because whatever happens is going to block or kill my dudes. If I'm playing Combo, I don't care what happens, but if I'm playing in an area where the games go long enough for something game ending to result, I am probably being booted from this game when it's over regardless of how long it takes me to combo off. And finally if I'm playing Control, I don't want anyone to take the option because whatever happens I'm going to have to control.
So provided everyone at the table is actually playing a strategy, these cards make no sense. It's only in the event that one guy wants to play a strategy and everyone else at the table wants to durdle-ramp that these cards amplify the rewards of passive, dawdling play. They discourage the development of strategy and counter-strategy, while rewarding the greater volume of 7-drops with ETB effects and other cards that don't affect anything until Turn 10.
The exact problem is that no one can strategize or make skill-oriented decisions around these cards, just benefit randomly in proportion to how passively they design their deck and how low of a threat at a table they are.
I get what you're saying but there's also room for off-the-wall effects and decisions
Like I said In can see how constant total chaos can be annoying but this whole "I minmax everything and expect others to as well" is just as annoying
Sounds like a card that I have to wait until the right moment to cast... Almost like there's a decision there that will affect how much this card benefits me.
Can you define what you mean when you say a deck is passive and why this is a strategy to be ridiculed? I don't really understand how "passive" lines up with trying to get a big play off of a tempting offer. Seems the opposite of passive.
If the baseline, active strategy of a deck works, then the answer to either is No. If it's a ramp into who knows what, I don't care what game state I'm in deck, then possibly Yes.
In a vacuum your analysis is pretty good but when you factor the existing board state in your card evaluation has to change. Some of the cards with this mechanic allow two or more players to recover from a poor position at once and turn the game around on that guy taking 10-minute turns counting his ETB effects on an abacus. Furthermore the caster is rewarded moreso than anyone else who takes part in it.
Take the red one. The player with a dominant board position taps out with a commanding board state. Next player untaps and taps out for Tempt with Vengeance. Uh-oh! This card lets everyone dogpile that player with maybe 30 total 1/1s or more. Can he withstand the attacks? I'd say the caster of the spell is in pretty good shape now (say this is a 4P game, he now has as many 1/1s as everyone else combined). That is massive reach for the mana. You can't get that kind of value out of Firecat Blitz and that is saying something!
I'm not trying to say Tempt with Vengeance is better than Firecat Blitz... but there are times where it will be a better card and those scenarios aren't exactly hard to dream up. Multiplayer is full of opportunities for the weaker players to rally together and defeat the strong player (and afterwards, fight it out themselves). This is not only multiplayer magic at its most "Magical", but it's nice to have some cards that enable it not be just bad cards. This is a pretty big upgrade over Join Forces
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
I think that's a gross, gross oversimplification. What if the baseline strategy of my deck is self mill into Living Death/variants? Might I consider running Tempt with Immortality, since I'm obviously set up to deal with my opponents bringing cards back from the graveyard? What if my baseline strategy is token swarm, utilizing things like Marton Stromgald to boost them to ridiculous effectiveness? Would I consider things like Tempt with Vengence, especially if I have a way to give my dudes trample? Both of those are strategies that are active, and can be the basis of a deck, and both care about the game state heavily, but could still put the mechanic to good use.
On top of that, it will probably be the casual/budget players that run them, and then they're playing kingmaker without knowing it. Super awesome.
BBB Two Hundred Zombies BBB
Duel Commander
WR Tajic, Wrath of the Manlands RW
BGW Doran Destruction WGB
Commander
GUB Mimeoplasm, Screw Politics BUG
BR Mogis, God of Slaughter RB
RGW Marath, Ramp and Removal WGR
WUBRG Karona, Jank God GRBUW