I think effects like Lightning Bolt should do 18 damage when aimed at a player. In a standard game of Magic, it does 15% of a player's life total, so in a four player game, that's 120 life to eat through, 15% of which is 18.
Or we could all just start at 20 if people want to scale effects to match the life totals. Less math.
Yeah, in order to take down a table of 3 you need 30 infect damage spread out over multiple targets using frequently inferior creatures, so I think 10 is fine. Triumph of the Hordes, Grafted Exoskeleton, and a couple other cards may cause problems for coming out of nowhere or being beyond what a particular playgroup can deal with, but I've never seen infect do anything voltron can't do better.
Tainted Strike, Blightsteel, the Imp, Phyrexian Juggernaut, Grafted Exoskeleton, Triumph of the Hordes, Corrupted Conscience and Skittles are the only real "good" Infect cards. People who complain about Infect's speed tend to forget that most of the creatures with Infect really do suck.
Honestly, we've had poison counters at 10 since Future Sight and it was only a problem when they fused Poisonous with Wither. It's not like we have a Sublime Archangel for Infect, and it isn't like Infect creatures are superior to other creatures (don't believe the Phyrexian lies!).
2. On that note, every group I've ever played with was 15, expressly to avoid one-shots with Blightsteel Colossus, something no one enjoyed dealing with. We still see infect kills on rare occasion, but it's just that: rare occasion. The most frequent ones we see involve Blightsteel+double strike, Grafted Exoskeleton+something huge, and Tainted Strike for laughs. 15 has worked well and splits the difference for us.
By the by, we have no other houserules. Just that one, and just to stop something that was way too easy and no one enjoyed dealing with. The big Blight still shows up, he's just slightly less absurd now.
Infect is a creature mechanic that requires said creature to actually deal combat damage... You're bad at the game if you're continually not able to a creature that needs to attack to really DO anything.
The rules say 10. It should be 10, end of story. Additionally, ways to win with infect are bad enough that life doesn't need to be any harder for them. Are there really metas out there where infect is such a rampant problem that the need to houserule it to make it worse exists? I'd really need to see that to believe it. Setting it to 20 sounds like someone pushing a panic button over a problem that doesn't exist.
2. On that note, every group I've ever played with was 15, expressly to avoid one-shots with Blightsteel Colossus, something no one enjoyed dealing with. We still see infect kills on rare occasion, but it's just that: rare occasion. The most frequent ones we see involve Blightsteel+double strike, Grafted Exoskeleton+something huge, and Tainted Strike for laughs. 15 has worked well and splits the difference for us.
By the by, we have no other houserules. Just that one, and just to stop something that was way too easy and no one enjoyed dealing with. The big Blight still shows up, he's just slightly less absurd now.
2 toughness is enough to stop a lethal hit from BSC. 2. How hard is it to get 2 toughness out by the time BSC gets cheated into play?
2 toughness is enough to stop a lethal hit from BSC. 2. How hard is it to get 2 toughness out by the time BSC gets cheated into play?
You'd be surprised how many people aren't expecting a surprise hasted Blightsteel. Or an unblockable one. Or one backed by removal. Or one post-wrath. It's pretty easy to not have a blocker in this format, after all.
Listen, I personally didn't advocate for the change, but as a group, both of my playgroups did change to 15 and the reasoning makes sense. Blightsteel was randomly killing people enough that it was no longer something people enjoyed, so a minor change was made. The card warped our meta to the point that if a deck didn't have an instant speed answer on tap all the time starting around turn 5, that deck wasn't playable anymore. This was an issue, so infect was upped to 15. *shrug*
Infect is a creature mechanic that requires said creature to actually deal combat damage... You're bad at the game if you're continually not able to a creature that needs to attack to really DO anything.
Worth pointing out that it doesn't have to be combat damage, so effects like Soul's Fire give infect.
Infect is a creature mechanic that requires said creature to actually deal combat damage... You're bad at the game if you're continually not able to a creature that needs to attack to really DO anything.
Or things work out just right and you have a bunch of mana, an Inkmoth Nexus, and a Kessig Wolf Run... Sometimes it does jump up and bite you in the ass, but so do Karmic Guide locks, Living Plane locks, and any other "WTF was that! (slap!!!!)" move that we love this game for.
Worth pointing out that it doesn't have to be combat damage, so effects like Soul's Fire give infect.
Fair enough however adding these effects means you're already diluting a deck with additional spells to supplement subpar infect creatures. Skithiryx is really the only competitive infect creature outside of BSC, which I'd say is equally as game ending as similarly costed creatures (Ulamog anyone?).
Or things work out just right and you have a bunch of mana, an Inkmoth Nexus, and a Kessig Wolf Run... Sometimes it does jump up and bite you in the ass, but so do Karmic Guide locks, Living Plane locks, and any other "WTF was that! (slap!!!!)" move that we love this game for.
As you pointed out, this is a natural element of an EDH game. When playing against well tuned decks, it's quite scary how close anyone is to death at any given point in the game.
What type of decks you play where Infect is such a problem?
I could understand if you are getting killed on turn 2 via Berserk from Putrefax. That's one extreme example and that interaction is very easy to deal with. Just run more graveyard hate or spot removal or a combination of both.
If Infect is a problem, I'd advise revising your curve, removal package, and the deck as a whole.
Marked 20, meant 10. We had one guy that kept trying to play with infect, but it was never effective. Usually the way you lose with infect is almost like a Phage kill. You should see it coming and if they have gone through enough effort to make it happen, props to them. The only issue with infect would be if people everywhere were dying to it, but they aren't. There is so much removal and for the most part you can see it coming. Sneak Attacking a BSC is about the worst that can happen, but when you see Sneak Attack, you should be expecting something dirty anyway.
Honestly, we've had poison counters at 10 since Future Sight and it was only a problem when they fused Poisonous with Wither. It's not like we have a Sublime Archangel for Infect, and it isn't like Infect creatures are superior to other creatures (don't believe the Phyrexian lies!).
I voted 10 because I actually run a poison themed deck and I know from experience. Infect creatures don't last very long and there aren't that many. In fact, if I get more than two on the field, I become target number one until I'm so neutered that I'm no longer a threat. I mean, there is that one in a million shot of getting a turn two Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon with haste, but those are the games that end quickly so we can play again.
Skittles is just a good mono-black commander, there are plenty others like him, and he's not great as a finisher in multiplayer compared to dudes like maga (which can hit the whole table), Erebos (useful effect + CA), etc.. He's a real killer in 1v1 though (as I use him)
Corrupted Conscious isn't that great, you can give your own 10/10 infect to surprise kill someone, or you can steal someone elses fatty, but if this card is EVER a problem in a meta, it's because the decks don't spot enough spot removal and are being appropriately punished.
Grafted Exoskelleton, This is probably the biggest offender on the list, it goes in ANY deck and turns any evasive creature into a 2-3 turn clock AND is repeatable. Not nearly enough people use this card and it is VASTLY underrated. However, changing the rules on a whole strategy should not happen because of 1 card. It's also not dominating the EDH world, so I don't see it as a real problem.
Tainted Strike - I've never done this but one of my friends would run this in his Bx decks so that when someone attacked an opponent with a 9+ power dude he could one-off them. It was always really funny and this (legitimate and fun/ny strategy) would completely disappear with 15 or 20 poison limits.
Triumph the hoards - no more powerful than cradelhoof, overwhelming stampede, or any number of other overrun effects that just end the game
blighsteel colossus - thsi is only really an issue when it's cheated out via sneak attack or other mechanism, if someone is hard casting a 12 drop, they deserve to win with it if they can. At the point though where it's blightsteel + sneak attack (or whatever other way to cheat it out you use) you're at a 2 card combo, there are so many better 2 card combos out there that who really cares?
Inkmoth nexus - also very good, but just an "ok" card overall. If this is a problem then try running more land destruction (a generallu good idea considering how many powerful lands exist)
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All of that being said, even if there were problem cards, who cares? EDH is full of broken stuff and that doesn't mean that it needs special rules to compensate to make combo STRONGER. Attaking with dudes scales terribly with higher life totals and more people (it's really easy to do 20 damage with an aggro deck, it's much harder to do 120...), making combo / control better by removing ANOTHER way to attack players life totals seems counterintuitive.
If you're having problems with poison, your problem is not poison, it's your lack of running cheap instant speed removal.
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Finally, this thread gets made ever 1-2m. I kindly suggest you see the other 15 polls with the same result and read through the threads if you're interested
in my group we do 15 infect just so you dont get one shot by beastys like blightsteel it also give the person a round to find a solution to it
Do you do the same thing for infinite combos or Craterhoof Behemoth Genesis Waves (they only bring everyone down to 1 life and have to wait a turn before finishing everyone else)?
Do you do the same thing for an Armageddon (everyone gets to keep one or two lands for an extra turn just to find a solution to it)?
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
Infect says 10. I don't like to make up my own rules. If I did I would make Fetches cost 2 life, shocks hit for 4 damage, and then would double the power of every creature we run. And that would be stupid.
Exactly. This question comes up pretty frequently on here, and I hate seeing it every time. If you think the "intent" should bring this up to 20 poison counters, then what about every other card in the game?
Should Shock now do 4 damage because that was the "intent" of the card? Then should you draw 6 cards from a Brainstorm? Should Dark Depths now have 20 counters on it when it etb? Should Felidar Sovereign need you to be at 80 life to win the game?
It's a slippery slope, and to try to change errata on certain cards is going to make things confusing very quickly. As it has been mentioned earlier in this thread, there are very few infect cards (all things considered), and most of them are over-cost for what they actually are. You're changing the entire strategy of your deck to take advantage of poison, and because of that, you're essentially playing your own game. You get no benefit from anyone else's damage to other players. I think these on their own are enough to knock the power of the poison-win.
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"I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame."
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
In my mind, there just arent that many playable infect cards for EDH. I am fine with it at 10. If I were to see it moved up at all 15 would probably be the highest it could be and still be possibly useful. At 20 infect, its just not even a valid option anymore.
Due to how few useable cards have infect though, I am fine with it at 10. Sure its annoying when someone has a way to punch for 10 in one shot but its really really scarce in my opinion.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
SRSLY
Yeah it is 15 here as well.
10 feels like it is circumventing the whole point of starting at 40 life.
and at 20.. It is almost the same as general damage.. so Skittles as a general doesn't change anything by having the infect keyword.
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GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
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R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Honestly, we've had poison counters at 10 since Future Sight and it was only a problem when they fused Poisonous with Wither. It's not like we have a Sublime Archangel for Infect, and it isn't like Infect creatures are superior to other creatures (don't believe the Phyrexian lies!).
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
2. On that note, every group I've ever played with was 15, expressly to avoid one-shots with Blightsteel Colossus, something no one enjoyed dealing with. We still see infect kills on rare occasion, but it's just that: rare occasion. The most frequent ones we see involve Blightsteel+double strike, Grafted Exoskeleton+something huge, and Tainted Strike for laughs. 15 has worked well and splits the difference for us.
By the by, we have no other houserules. Just that one, and just to stop something that was way too easy and no one enjoyed dealing with. The big Blight still shows up, he's just slightly less absurd now.
Radha, Heir to Keld, Vorel of the Hull Clade, Kemba, Kha Regent, Vela the Night-Clad, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Barrin, Master Wizard, Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer, Patron of the Orochi, Oloro, Ageless Ascetic, Thraximundar, Roon of the Hidden Realm, Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, Marath, Will of the Wild, Teneb, the Harvester
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2 toughness is enough to stop a lethal hit from BSC. 2. How hard is it to get 2 toughness out by the time BSC gets cheated into play?
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
You'd be surprised how many people aren't expecting a surprise hasted Blightsteel. Or an unblockable one. Or one backed by removal. Or one post-wrath. It's pretty easy to not have a blocker in this format, after all.
Listen, I personally didn't advocate for the change, but as a group, both of my playgroups did change to 15 and the reasoning makes sense. Blightsteel was randomly killing people enough that it was no longer something people enjoyed, so a minor change was made. The card warped our meta to the point that if a deck didn't have an instant speed answer on tap all the time starting around turn 5, that deck wasn't playable anymore. This was an issue, so infect was upped to 15. *shrug*
Radha, Heir to Keld, Vorel of the Hull Clade, Kemba, Kha Regent, Vela the Night-Clad, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Barrin, Master Wizard, Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer, Patron of the Orochi, Oloro, Ageless Ascetic, Thraximundar, Roon of the Hidden Realm, Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, Marath, Will of the Wild, Teneb, the Harvester
If you did this, tell me and I'll credit you!
Worth pointing out that it doesn't have to be combat damage, so effects like Soul's Fire give infect.
Or things work out just right and you have a bunch of mana, an Inkmoth Nexus, and a Kessig Wolf Run... Sometimes it does jump up and bite you in the ass, but so do Karmic Guide locks, Living Plane locks, and any other "WTF was that! (slap!!!!)" move that we love this game for.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
10. It's as simple as this.
Fair enough however adding these effects means you're already diluting a deck with additional spells to supplement subpar infect creatures. Skithiryx is really the only competitive infect creature outside of BSC, which I'd say is equally as game ending as similarly costed creatures (Ulamog anyone?).
As you pointed out, this is a natural element of an EDH game. When playing against well tuned decks, it's quite scary how close anyone is to death at any given point in the game.
I could understand if you are getting killed on turn 2 via Berserk from Putrefax. That's one extreme example and that interaction is very easy to deal with. Just run more graveyard hate or spot removal or a combination of both.
If Infect is a problem, I'd advise revising your curve, removal package, and the deck as a whole.
EDH
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BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
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Thoughts on proxies:
Crypt Cobra, Marsh Vipe, Pit Scorpion, Sabertooth Cobr, Serpent Generator, Suq'Ata Assassin, and Swamp Mosquit would like to have a word with you.
I voted 10 because I actually run a poison themed deck and I know from experience. Infect creatures don't last very long and there aren't that many. In fact, if I get more than two on the field, I become target number one until I'm so neutered that I'm no longer a threat. I mean, there is that one in a million shot of getting a turn two Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon with haste, but those are the games that end quickly so we can play again.
[Inkfox Aesthetics] [The Spirit of EDH] U Sakashima the Impostor R Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Of all the infect cards, there are only a few that are actually playable in any circumstance, they are:
Skittles is just a good mono-black commander, there are plenty others like him, and he's not great as a finisher in multiplayer compared to dudes like maga (which can hit the whole table), Erebos (useful effect + CA), etc.. He's a real killer in 1v1 though (as I use him)
Corrupted Conscious isn't that great, you can give your own 10/10 infect to surprise kill someone, or you can steal someone elses fatty, but if this card is EVER a problem in a meta, it's because the decks don't spot enough spot removal and are being appropriately punished.
Grafted Exoskelleton, This is probably the biggest offender on the list, it goes in ANY deck and turns any evasive creature into a 2-3 turn clock AND is repeatable. Not nearly enough people use this card and it is VASTLY underrated. However, changing the rules on a whole strategy should not happen because of 1 card. It's also not dominating the EDH world, so I don't see it as a real problem.
Tainted Strike - I've never done this but one of my friends would run this in his Bx decks so that when someone attacked an opponent with a 9+ power dude he could one-off them. It was always really funny and this (legitimate and fun/ny strategy) would completely disappear with 15 or 20 poison limits.
Triumph the hoards - no more powerful than cradelhoof, overwhelming stampede, or any number of other overrun effects that just end the game
blighsteel colossus - thsi is only really an issue when it's cheated out via sneak attack or other mechanism, if someone is hard casting a 12 drop, they deserve to win with it if they can. At the point though where it's blightsteel + sneak attack (or whatever other way to cheat it out you use) you're at a 2 card combo, there are so many better 2 card combos out there that who really cares?
Inkmoth nexus - also very good, but just an "ok" card overall. If this is a problem then try running more land destruction (a generallu good idea considering how many powerful lands exist)
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All of that being said, even if there were problem cards, who cares? EDH is full of broken stuff and that doesn't mean that it needs special rules to compensate to make combo STRONGER. Attaking with dudes scales terribly with higher life totals and more people (it's really easy to do 20 damage with an aggro deck, it's much harder to do 120...), making combo / control better by removing ANOTHER way to attack players life totals seems counterintuitive.
If you're having problems with poison, your problem is not poison, it's your lack of running cheap instant speed removal.
----------------------
Finally, this thread gets made ever 1-2m. I kindly suggest you see the other 15 polls with the same result and read through the threads if you're interested
Edric | Skithiryx | Merieke | Talrand
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Well except for pauper EDH
Garruk's Packleader | Inkfathom Witch | Gelectrode | Sigil Captain | Glider Barin | Sludge Strider | Paragon of the Ameshsa
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WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
10. It's already a weak strategy in multiplayer. Making it 20 would be tantamount to abolishing infect entirely.
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
Do you do the same thing for infinite combos or Craterhoof Behemoth Genesis Waves (they only bring everyone down to 1 life and have to wait a turn before finishing everyone else)?
Do you do the same thing for an Armageddon (everyone gets to keep one or two lands for an extra turn just to find a solution to it)?
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Exactly. This question comes up pretty frequently on here, and I hate seeing it every time. If you think the "intent" should bring this up to 20 poison counters, then what about every other card in the game?
Should Shock now do 4 damage because that was the "intent" of the card? Then should you draw 6 cards from a Brainstorm? Should Dark Depths now have 20 counters on it when it etb? Should Felidar Sovereign need you to be at 80 life to win the game?
It's a slippery slope, and to try to change errata on certain cards is going to make things confusing very quickly. As it has been mentioned earlier in this thread, there are very few infect cards (all things considered), and most of them are over-cost for what they actually are. You're changing the entire strategy of your deck to take advantage of poison, and because of that, you're essentially playing your own game. You get no benefit from anyone else's damage to other players. I think these on their own are enough to knock the power of the poison-win.
—Lim-Dul, the Necromancer
EDH/Commander
WWMichiko Konda, Truth Seeker Mono-White Control
RWBasandra, Battle Seraph Sunforger Shenanigans
GRWZacama Loam & Lands
Cube
Draft my "Classic Border Cube"
WUBRG
Due to how few useable cards have infect though, I am fine with it at 10. Sure its annoying when someone has a way to punch for 10 in one shot but its really really scarce in my opinion.
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