idk, like 6-7? *runs off to count the tutors in toshi*
tutors are fun but some people shouldnt be allowed to use them because they cant search fast enough. my rule has always been dont cast the tutor unless you know your target beforehand.
also, these 50-60 tutor people are on the brink of insanity. if you are playing that hardcore of a combo deck you probably dont get to play EDH much since all your friends will have stopped playing with you.
9-10 gives you ~50% chance at having one in your opening 7; 18 gives you ~90% chance at having one in your first 11 cards (eg, ship 3 cards twice for partial paris mulligan down to a 5-card starting hand). These are good points of reference for the general case of "how many do I need in order to see them each game?"
Combo decks probably want to see two, in order to grab all the pieces of their combo (either a 2-card combo, or a 3-card combo including the general). In that case, 22-23 gives you ~50% at two in your opening 7, and 30 gives you ~90% at two in your first 11 cards.
This guy pretty much nailed it. I think 25ish so that by turn 3 you'll almost assuredly have seen 2 of them is the way to go. In a format with infinite tutors fast combo is easily the best deck. Of course if everyone has them the game would become stagnant faster than when Griselbrand was legal
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
To tackle the heart of the argument, I think that the goal of any tuned list to find and play their combos. Tutors and ramp both greatly enhance that goal, but when you're at the maximum threshold of playable singletons, what else is there? Cantrips are a cheap way of not being ramp or tutor, but being the next best thing. If ramp and tutors are the enablers, cantrips are the enablers of the enablers. In a threat/tutor dense deck, sculpting is a severely undervalued trait in EDH.
Mmm this with that artifact that gives each spell ripple 4 for a non-adnausem mono black storm deck. Guaranteed table kill by t3-6
Which would be absolutely effing horrible.
I prefer to run few if any non-conditional tutors, usually runescarred demon is about it.
I had always wondered why there were not Sorcery/Instant vairents of Shadowborn/relentless rats, and that senario you just mentioned enlightened me as to why.
In a 100 card deck, you still want 35-40 lands. That leaves you with 64 cards (36 land).
You need your "fast" combo to win and probably a backup. That leaves you with 58 cards (6 "combo" cards).
Then there're probably 10-20 disruption spells you want (as previously mentioned aven mindcensor, counterspells, etc). That leaves you 43 cards (15 utility).
Then you want ALL the fast mana (and jet medallions) artifacts to ramp the first 2-3 turns. That's another 10 cards. That leaves you 33 cards (10 ramp).
Wow, there are some wildly varying answers here. It is very interesting to see people reach wildly different conclusions on the same subject. Thanks to everyone for your insights.
It is also interesting to see some people feel like they need to make snarky comments instead of actually contributing to the discussion. I guess you always get a handful of them on the Internet.
I agree that it depends on what you want. I put 11-20 (really meaning 20) for my Vish Kal deck which would love getting all the broken cards all the time (it's a control deck), but not so many that using necropotence means I draw all demonic tutors.
With this many, I am expected to have at least 1 in each starting hand, and that means I can get cabal coffers, urborg, tomb of yawgmoth, necropotence, and all that awesomeness basically every game.
I think stranglehold would increase in popularity.
I would probably drop somewhere in the range of 6-8 for initial testing. You still need a wide variety of targets so unless I was building some sort of glass cannon combo deck, I would still want other things to play. I think 12 would be on the high end of what I would play depending on the deck. Again though, the high side for me would probably be some sort of combo deck.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
My Damia, Sage of Stone deck is green/creature focused. Not including ramp and fetches I have 10 tutor effects, only DT and Vampiric Tutor are unrestricted tutors. I've also got Lim-Dul's Vault and Fact or Fiction for dig, SkullclampPrime Speaker Zegana and Damia for draw power, and Bribery as an interactive tutor. The deck is perfectly fine without any more tutors, and I couldn't imagine not having at least some in any deck who's colors could support them.
Of course, this depends on the deck. I would totally run surgical extraction all day, along with Nevermore, Meddling Mage, Stranglehold, Mindcensor, etc.
Yes, so let's just be lazy slobs and not even try.
The goal isn't for you to answer every threat played; it's that between you and the other players at the table, someone is able to stop whatever horrible thing is being done.
By neglecting to put a reasonable amount of answers in your deck and ways to find them, you are forcing the rest of the table to answer everything for you.
Imo this is rude, selfish, and creates a loathsome playing environment.
Also, as others have said, this is a thought experiment. It's like asking "How many nuclear bombs would it take to kill us all?" The answer is not 0, regardless of whether or not you think it would be a good idea.
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If combo should die before I wake I'll slide a Smokestack in every deck I play, roll in every shop wreck the Spirit of EDH.
Because we need Aven Mindcensor to be worth EVEN MORE MONEY.
2-10 seems fine if you're not some dumb combo deck. Else, 51-60 is likely the right number.
WHATTT HOW IS THIS CARD SUDDENLY $10
I think I changed my mind about DT in aggressive decks. If you run a high number of Demonic Tutors, the fact all of your spells cost 1B more is offset by the fact you can get Mana Crypt by turn 2 every game. Instead of needing a critical mass of aggressive cards, you just get all the best ones, all the time.
You could also afford to cut some lands since you can DT for Ancient Tomb at will.
I think the correct number is 31-40, on average. But man this format would suck.
tutors are fun but some people shouldnt be allowed to use them because they cant search fast enough. my rule has always been dont cast the tutor unless you know your target beforehand.
also, these 50-60 tutor people are on the brink of insanity. if you are playing that hardcore of a combo deck you probably dont get to play EDH much since all your friends will have stopped playing with you.
This guy pretty much nailed it. I think 25ish so that by turn 3 you'll almost assuredly have seen 2 of them is the way to go. In a format with infinite tutors fast combo is easily the best deck. Of course if everyone has them the game would become stagnant faster than when Griselbrand was legal
IMO, of course
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Which would be absolutely effing horrible.
I prefer to run few if any non-conditional tutors, usually runescarred demon is about it.
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I had always wondered why there were not Sorcery/Instant vairents of Shadowborn/relentless rats, and that senario you just mentioned enlightened me as to why.
It's Hip to be a Square
You need your "fast" combo to win and probably a backup. That leaves you with 58 cards (6 "combo" cards).
Then there're probably 10-20 disruption spells you want (as previously mentioned aven mindcensor, counterspells, etc). That leaves you 43 cards (15 utility).
Then you want ALL the fast mana (and jet medallions) artifacts to ramp the first 2-3 turns. That's another 10 cards. That leaves you 33 cards (10 ramp).
So like 30-40 tutors sounds right.
Edric | Skithiryx | Merieke | Talrand
--------------------------
Well except for pauper EDH
Garruk's Packleader | Inkfathom Witch | Gelectrode | Sigil Captain | Glider Barin | Sludge Strider | Paragon of the Ameshsa
Omni -> DT -> DT -> ..... -> DT -> Tendrils of Agony
Why, I would imagine loving a format where I cast Mindlock orb on turn one and 40 of each of my opponents cards are dead.
It is also interesting to see some people feel like they need to make snarky comments instead of actually contributing to the discussion. I guess you always get a handful of them on the Internet.
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6-9 basically filler for subpar cards...
aggro
4- basically find your silver bullets
midrange aggro/control
10
your super grindy and paying 2 extra mana for your spells isnt a big deal
tempo
0
i have a 5c tempo deck that doesnt want tutors.
ok, i take that back, i play mystical tutor so i can terminus at will
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With this many, I am expected to have at least 1 in each starting hand, and that means I can get cabal coffers, urborg, tomb of yawgmoth, necropotence, and all that awesomeness basically every game.
I think stranglehold would increase in popularity.
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My Damia, Sage of Stone deck is green/creature focused. Not including ramp and fetches I have 10 tutor effects, only DT and Vampiric Tutor are unrestricted tutors. I've also got Lim-Dul's Vault and Fact or Fiction for dig, Skullclamp Prime Speaker Zegana and Damia for draw power, and Bribery as an interactive tutor. The deck is perfectly fine without any more tutors, and I couldn't imagine not having at least some in any deck who's colors could support them.
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Thrasios and Tymna aggro-control voltron-combo
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Of course, this depends on the deck. I would totally run surgical extraction all day, along with Nevermore, Meddling Mage, Stranglehold, Mindcensor, etc.
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Thoughts on proxies:
Yes, so let's just be lazy slobs and not even try.
The goal isn't for you to answer every threat played; it's that between you and the other players at the table, someone is able to stop whatever horrible thing is being done.
By neglecting to put a reasonable amount of answers in your deck and ways to find them, you are forcing the rest of the table to answer everything for you.
Imo this is rude, selfish, and creates a loathsome playing environment.
Also, as others have said, this is a thought experiment. It's like asking "How many nuclear bombs would it take to kill us all?" The answer is not 0, regardless of whether or not you think it would be a good idea.
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2-10 seems fine if you're not some dumb combo deck. Else, 51-60 is likely the right number.
WHATTT HOW IS THIS CARD SUDDENLY $10
I think I changed my mind about DT in aggressive decks. If you run a high number of Demonic Tutors, the fact all of your spells cost 1B more is offset by the fact you can get Mana Crypt by turn 2 every game. Instead of needing a critical mass of aggressive cards, you just get all the best ones, all the time.
You could also afford to cut some lands since you can DT for Ancient Tomb at will.
I think the correct number is 31-40, on average. But man this format would suck.
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