What does Prosh combo all that well with other than Food Chain?
Don't get me wrong he seems strong but he dosen't feel all that oppressive to me.
Mana Echoes and a sac outlet, maybe, if you have a way to convert colorless to colored mana? I feel like he's more like Ghave in that you can do a lot of weird synergistic things with him and some of those will happen to end the game immediately.
ISB, I do consider Craterhoof somewhat annoying. Even something as weak as Martial Coup for 5, Craterhoof next turn can kill someone. It gets stupid with a decent amount of tokens. I still mind him less than Sylvan Primordial though, mainly because you don't run into as much degenerate cloning crap as you do with cards like Primordial, Yosei, Kokusho, Consecrated Sphinx, etc. Cloning a Craterhoof with no tokens doesn't get you far.
What does Prosh combo all that well with other than Food Chain?
Don't get me wrong he seems strong but he dosen't feel all that oppressive to me.
I dont think its so much of him playing combo thats the issue. Counterspelling him doesn't stop a lot of his value from happening. If you have Propoganda effects then he goes voltron, if you have spot removal for him then there is the option of recasting him and his tokens can get to work still. He is just really versatile and hard to stop. He is a spell on a stick but his value comes at cast so you cant even hate on ETB to stop his value.
He is more of a Jund rock style of deck though in my opinion than a combo deck. You dont need to add much to make his own abilities be very potent. His strength looks to lie in his versatility and difficulty to nicely counter. Are there counters, yes absolutely, in my opinion though none of the counters are really hard counters to him so much as temporary stalls.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
@AzureShadow and @batdown Mana Echoes is pretty nasty and I can see how the alters go well with him to. At that point you just need a decent mana sink to finish people for a combo kill, something BRG has no sortage of.
@batdown I think for earthcraft you also need another sac outlet
@ISBPathfinder I think I understand what you are getting at. He has a lot of uses all on one card and isn't easy to answer. Also looking though the Jund list of generals he seems like the best choice in most situations, he does so much more than any of the others.
@ISBPathfinder I think I understand what you are getting at. He has a lot of uses all on one card and isn't easy to answer. Also looking though the Jund list of generals he seems like the best choice in most situations, he does so much more than any of the others.
My concern is more along the line of concern about power creep. I myself am not a huge fan of commanders that become ETB value sticks as I think it takes away from the format some.
This new cycle of commanders has me worried more than anything. I dont particularly want to see a cycle of commanders that +1 all the other options in their colors and are ETB or in this case ON CAST value generators. I am just sort of airing my concern. He is a great commander and will be very very good. My concern is that I feel like we are taking a big leap up on power potentially with these commanders. I sort of honestly hope that the two we have seen so far are the top end of crazy because I dont particularly want to see them one upped by the other three yet to be revealed. Its likely that they will probably be along the same lines of crazy but that worries me too.
The best counter measure to these commanders is probably mass LD or comboing off before they matter. That concerns me...
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
My concern is more along the line of concern about power creep. I myself am not a huge fan of commanders that become ETB value sticks as I think it takes away from the format some.
This new cycle of commanders has me worried more than anything. I dont particularly want to see a cycle of commanders that +1 all the other options in their colors and are ETB or in this case ON CAST value generators. I am just sort of airing my concern. He is a great commander and will be very very good. My concern is that I feel like we are taking a big leap up on power potentially with these commanders. I sort of honestly hope that the two we have seen so far are the top end of crazy because I dont particularly want to see them one upped by the other three yet to be revealed.
Totally agree there. At least the UBR one spoiled aligns more to a certain strategy, but with just those two out it's hard to guess how the other three will be.
I'm sick of ETB in general personally. I would like to see etb effects become a lot rarer, and see more activated abilities that are relevant and powerful. It seems like the designers have the opposite opinion however, as they insist on printing cards like the new commanders and strionic resonator and deadeye.
Whatever though, I'll deal with it. It's just that the prevalence of etb is making it so that plays can be too explosive, preventing other players from responding to strong plays. what effect does that have? it makes blue much better because counterspells now become relatively much much more powerful than permanent removal. It also speeds games up, and fast explosive wins are something that players have always complained about and are basically the reason why we have banlists. I don't see where the benefit is in the proliferation of etb magic. Is this something that new players really love? Does it have to do with the push to expand the game's playership (is that a word)?
Just a nitpick, but there are a whole lot more than ETB effects for Strionic Resonator to double. Triggered abilities are everywhere. It's not like that card is "ETB-a-nator," but I see your point.
I don't see Prosh being a major problem, largely since everyone here is mostly mentioning him as being a problem with a tuned list. If Prosh is using a tuned list, then anyone Prosh is facing should be using a tuned list. If they are, they should have answers to balance the field. If they don't have tuned lists, then any tuned deck is going to be a problem.
Further more, if I am reading the OP correctly, Prosh was tested in 1v1. Aggro is naturally better when you don't have to deal with more opponents (and comboing becomes harder with more answers).
I am, however, curious what the list was, because Food Chain is the only card I can think of that works well the commander that one might not include in other Jund token lists.
The problem with this tactic is that it is incredibly frowned upon across most of the commander audience. Armageddon tactics are absolutely the way to go to rheel this in, the problem is that most groups dont like running them.
I think this guy will take big strides towards people becoming more accepting of mass LD because he is really hard without screwing with lands.
I have not fought against him, but he definitely seems extremely powerful. Nothing generates as much sac fodder as he does, and he does it on cast - making it almost uncounterable.
Were you playing 1v1 with duel commander rules? Just wondering.
My Tajic duel commander deck would probably be okay against it depending on how much hand stripping he has. It is loaded with spot removal (a ton for enchantments and artifacts too) and has ~12 board wipes since they don't kill Tajic (kind of the point of my deck), so I would have a lot of answers at least. I would have to play against it to really see though.
Yeah, it was duel commander rules, and yeah, he had a little hand destruction. I saw a Hymn to Tourach and a Thoughtsieze.
I run 3-4 Wrath Effects in 3 of my 1v1 decks, so I don't have 12 like you do, but even in the hands that I had one it didn't seem to help. There wasn't a buildup turn, was what was insane. It was always drop Prosh=win, all in one turn, and I don't run any instant wraths. he was playing a fair amount of haste enablers, and all of the Beastmasters Ascension/Craterhoof effects
There are four Prossh lists currently in my local meta, and I've not had much trouble dealing with them. The key with big things like this guy is just resource denial. Hurt their mana. Tax them. Be disruptive. Always sport good amounts of spot and mass removal. White/blue/red can tuck generals too, so don't be afraid to disrupt hard when you need to, if you have access to those colours.
This I did, odd as it sounds. I usually play pretty permission-heavy decks for 1v1, and I made sure to burn his dorks as they were coming out. It just didn't seem to matter, at most I would have 3 kill spells and he'd just drop prosh @ T4 usually after all my answers were burned, then Demonic Tutor for a Craterhoof/Beastmaster Ascension, or something and swing and kill.
I feel like I should build the deck and play all y'all so you could see what it was like, it was awful O.o I've never been beaten that badly that consistently by an aggro 1v1 deck in EDH lol.
I just feel like the only way to combat it is blue, and I hate playing blue. I'd hate to have to run a color I don't enjoy playing just to be able to beat a specific general, that doesn't sound fun
Maelstrom Wanderer, Kaalia of the Vast, and Ghave, Guru of Spores were kind of absurd too, for their time. They still sort of are. This is just the next step. You can expect that they'll be printing something that pushes the EDH power level further and further each time they make product for it. I shudder to think where we'll be in two or three years in terms of commander power level.
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2UURRniv mizzet, the firemind endless fiery mind wheels of death 3WRjor kadeen, the prevailer weenies and extra combat forever 3RRzirilan of the claw dragons and damage doublers 4:SymRG::SymRG:wort, the raidmother burn is now EDH viable 2WUkangee, aerie keeper birds 1UBRjeleva, nephalia's scourge spellslinger/storm
here are the mana costs of generals i no longer play: 2BR3BB3UBG4UB:SymUB::SymUB:2URRG3WWU2UU2GGUUBGG
Prossh is strong, but he's just going to make mass removal and utility removal more valuable. You know exactly what he's up to. He's going to find any one of his haste givers and pump enchantments and attempt to beat down. Don't let the player do it. It's as simple as that.
This isn't even the most degenerate general there is. Let's talk about the huge number of noninteractive combos in Ghave or Sharuum. They often win through removal, so it's counter or nothing. Proshh folds to a little removal and sweeping.
My concern is more along the line of concern about power creep. I myself am not a huge fan of commanders that become ETB value sticks as I think it takes away from the format some.
This new cycle of commanders has me worried more than anything. I dont particularly want to see a cycle of commanders that +1 all the other options in their colors and are ETB or in this case ON CAST value generators. I am just sort of airing my concern. He is a great commander and will be very very good. My concern is that I feel like we are taking a big leap up on power potentially with these commanders. I sort of honestly hope that the two we have seen so far are the top end of crazy because I dont particularly want to see them one upped by the other three yet to be revealed. Its likely that they will probably be along the same lines of crazy but that worries me too.
The best counter measure to these commanders is probably mass LD or comboing off before they matter. That concerns me...
I don't there is anything inherently wrong with the design of these generals. Prossh is certainly powerful, and maybe will become to go-to choice for jund generals. However, I wanna pipe up in defense of Jelava here. She's got a very build-around design which is what I want to see from these generals. Sure, one or two might try her for tribal vampires or something but honestly, she's best played as Big Spells.
I wouldn't worry about these generals too much at this point. Of course, we know that wizards has some pretty uninspired design choices for the format (looking at you), but I do think that the did the first set of commander product generals reasonably well. Maybe every man and his dog now have Kaalia and Karador decks but they are still quite well designed generals. For what its worth, I think there would be less Kaalia decks if the other options in those colors were playable as well.
The fact that these commanders have an ETB isn't so bad either. The way its worded means that recursion/blink/cheating the cost don't work and yet its also worded in a way that means if the spell is countered its controller doesn't get the benefit (like the eldrazi).
I understand the fear of these commander becoming too ubiquitous, but I think that Prossh just might be the Kaalia of the set, rather than a tell-tale sign of what the set has to come.
How is he any worse than Maelstrom Wanderer? Wanderer is extremely resilient in that all it takes is one cast to have instant board position. He's also almost impervious to wraths as he can rebuild simply by casting his general. Given that myself and other wanderer players have a multitude of extra turns in our decks, if we hit one its usually game over.
Both generals have cast abilities that make them very strong against permission. There are numerous cards that can hard counter Proshh, ranging from common ones like Massacre Wurn to less so like Night of Soul's Betrayal. Wanderer's only weakness is his prohibitive mana cost, and like Proshh, is heavily susceptible to resource denial.
The fact that these commanders have an ETB isn't so bad either. The way its worded means that recursion/blink/cheating the cost don't work and yet its also worded in a way that means if the spell is countered its controller doesn't get the benefit (like the eldrazi).
I think you should read it again, a little more closely ^.^ It's when it's cast, so counters still give it the effect, much like the Eldrazi
I checked out your Skullbriar and Isamaru. They are pretty decent but definitely can be better imo. Prossh is very strong but I don't feel like its anything new. The legendary creatures in commander/planechase products are generally pretty strong. Khalia, Ruhan, Nin, Ghave, Mimeoplasm, Karador, Maelstrom Wanderer, are all very very strong. I feel Prossh is very similar in power level and doesn't warrant too much concern unless the other generals should.
I can see him being somewhat problematic in 1v1 simply because he has the ramp to come down fast and lots of enablers in those colors that would let him go off the turn he's cast. Not to mention access to the best tutors. A well tuned deck could be quite annoying. You'd have to remove/counter those early artifacts or enchantments that could let him win the same turn he's cast all the while he's ramping to drop in t4 or so. You counter him and he still gets the tokens. Every time you wrath he comes back with more tokens. It seems you'd be spending a lot of time making sure he can't win rather than winning yourself. Lots of land destruction would seem to be the way to go.
Have a helicopter drop you off out front. Light your cigar with a small Indonesian boy holding a black lotus. Then bust out a craw wurm deck with no sleeves. Raw dog shuffle, loose terribly, flip the table, leave in a hovercraft.
Mana Echoes and a sac outlet, maybe, if you have a way to convert colorless to colored mana? I feel like he's more like Ghave in that you can do a lot of weird synergistic things with him and some of those will happen to end the game immediately.
he combos with:
ashnod's altar + phyrexian altar
mana echoes + phyrexian altar
earthcraft + 4 basic lands (I think)
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
I dont think its so much of him playing combo thats the issue. Counterspelling him doesn't stop a lot of his value from happening. If you have Propoganda effects then he goes voltron, if you have spot removal for him then there is the option of recasting him and his tokens can get to work still. He is just really versatile and hard to stop. He is a spell on a stick but his value comes at cast so you cant even hate on ETB to stop his value.
If he is "comboing" with anything, I would say its like Warp World, Craterhoof Behemoth, Tears of Rage, and perhaps some of the multi attack things like Seize the Day / Savage Beating.
He is more of a Jund rock style of deck though in my opinion than a combo deck. You dont need to add much to make his own abilities be very potent. His strength looks to lie in his versatility and difficulty to nicely counter. Are there counters, yes absolutely, in my opinion though none of the counters are really hard counters to him so much as temporary stalls.
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[Modern] Allies
he is definitely a scary commander. I built him because I am sick of losing games with my ulasht deck.
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
@batdown I think for earthcraft you also need another sac outlet
@ISBPathfinder I think I understand what you are getting at. He has a lot of uses all on one card and isn't easy to answer. Also looking though the Jund list of generals he seems like the best choice in most situations, he does so much more than any of the others.
RGW Rith, the Awakener
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
UBR Nicol Bolas
GWU Treva, the Renewer
RWU Numot, the Devastator
My concern is more along the line of concern about power creep. I myself am not a huge fan of commanders that become ETB value sticks as I think it takes away from the format some.
This new cycle of commanders has me worried more than anything. I dont particularly want to see a cycle of commanders that +1 all the other options in their colors and are ETB or in this case ON CAST value generators. I am just sort of airing my concern. He is a great commander and will be very very good. My concern is that I feel like we are taking a big leap up on power potentially with these commanders. I sort of honestly hope that the two we have seen so far are the top end of crazy because I dont particularly want to see them one upped by the other three yet to be revealed. Its likely that they will probably be along the same lines of crazy but that worries me too.
The best counter measure to these commanders is probably mass LD or comboing off before they matter. That concerns me...
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[Modern] Allies
Totally agree there. At least the UBR one spoiled aligns more to a certain strategy, but with just those two out it's hard to guess how the other three will be.
RGW Rith, the Awakener
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
UBR Nicol Bolas
GWU Treva, the Renewer
RWU Numot, the Devastator
Whatever though, I'll deal with it. It's just that the prevalence of etb is making it so that plays can be too explosive, preventing other players from responding to strong plays. what effect does that have? it makes blue much better because counterspells now become relatively much much more powerful than permanent removal. It also speeds games up, and fast explosive wins are something that players have always complained about and are basically the reason why we have banlists. I don't see where the benefit is in the proliferation of etb magic. Is this something that new players really love? Does it have to do with the push to expand the game's playership (is that a word)?
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
Further more, if I am reading the OP correctly, Prosh was tested in 1v1. Aggro is naturally better when you don't have to deal with more opponents (and comboing becomes harder with more answers).
I am, however, curious what the list was, because Food Chain is the only card I can think of that works well the commander that one might not include in other Jund token lists.
This is about 1v1.
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Yeah, it was duel commander rules, and yeah, he had a little hand destruction. I saw a Hymn to Tourach and a Thoughtsieze.
I run 3-4 Wrath Effects in 3 of my 1v1 decks, so I don't have 12 like you do, but even in the hands that I had one it didn't seem to help. There wasn't a buildup turn, was what was insane. It was always drop Prosh=win, all in one turn, and I don't run any instant wraths. he was playing a fair amount of haste enablers, and all of the Beastmasters Ascension/Craterhoof effects
This I did, odd as it sounds. I usually play pretty permission-heavy decks for 1v1, and I made sure to burn his dorks as they were coming out. It just didn't seem to matter, at most I would have 3 kill spells and he'd just drop prosh @ T4 usually after all my answers were burned, then Demonic Tutor for a Craterhoof/Beastmaster Ascension, or something and swing and kill.
I feel like I should build the deck and play all y'all so you could see what it was like, it was awful O.o I've never been beaten that badly that consistently by an aggro 1v1 deck in EDH lol.
I just feel like the only way to combat it is blue, and I hate playing blue. I'd hate to have to run a color I don't enjoy playing just to be able to beat a specific general, that doesn't sound fun
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[Primer]WIsamaru, the Howling BladeW[Primer]
[Primer]BGSkullbriar: From Life, Death Eternal (1v1)GB[Primer]
BGRbighaben and Feverous' Prossh, Skyraider of KherRGB
BGRProssh-Gro (1V1)RGB
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Fixed that for you
Edit: @ Feverous- I'm pretty sure relying on blue permission isn't going to help beat Prossh. Jund beats blue control.
3WR jor kadeen, the prevailer weenies and extra combat forever
3RR zirilan of the claw dragons and damage doublers
4:SymRG::SymRG: wort, the raidmother burn is now EDH viable
2WU kangee, aerie keeper birds
1UBR jeleva, nephalia's scourge spellslinger/storm
here are the mana costs of generals i no longer play: 2BR3BB3UBG4UB:SymUB::SymUB:2URRG3WWU2UU2GGUUBGG
3UWR numot, the devastator of [the spirit of edh]
This isn't even the most degenerate general there is. Let's talk about the huge number of noninteractive combos in Ghave or Sharuum. They often win through removal, so it's counter or nothing. Proshh folds to a little removal and sweeping.
I don't there is anything inherently wrong with the design of these generals. Prossh is certainly powerful, and maybe will become to go-to choice for jund generals. However, I wanna pipe up in defense of Jelava here. She's got a very build-around design which is what I want to see from these generals. Sure, one or two might try her for tribal vampires or something but honestly, she's best played as Big Spells.
I wouldn't worry about these generals too much at this point. Of course, we know that wizards has some pretty uninspired design choices for the format (looking at you), but I do think that the did the first set of commander product generals reasonably well. Maybe every man and his dog now have Kaalia and Karador decks but they are still quite well designed generals. For what its worth, I think there would be less Kaalia decks if the other options in those colors were playable as well.
The fact that these commanders have an ETB isn't so bad either. The way its worded means that recursion/blink/cheating the cost don't work and yet its also worded in a way that means if the spell is countered its controller doesn't get the benefit (like the eldrazi).
I understand the fear of these commander becoming too ubiquitous, but I think that Prossh just might be the Kaalia of the set, rather than a tell-tale sign of what the set has to come.
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!
Both generals have cast abilities that make them very strong against permission. There are numerous cards that can hard counter Proshh, ranging from common ones like Massacre Wurn to less so like Night of Soul's Betrayal. Wanderer's only weakness is his prohibitive mana cost, and like Proshh, is heavily susceptible to resource denial.
I think you should read it again, a little more closely ^.^ It's when it's cast, so counters still give it the effect, much like the Eldrazi
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[Primer]WIsamaru, the Howling BladeW[Primer]
[Primer]BGSkullbriar: From Life, Death Eternal (1v1)GB[Primer]
BGRbighaben and Feverous' Prossh, Skyraider of KherRGB
BGRProssh-Gro (1V1)RGB
Sexy Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios
EDH
G Isao
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master