By dedicated land destruction I meant cards that only blow up lands.
Using a Vindicate/Beast Within to blow up a Karoo is a terrible, terrible, terrible play.
If at the start of turn three I can set an opponent back to 0 lands, I will happily do so. Beast Within reads: 3 mana, destroy target player.
If at the start of turn three I can set an opponent back to 0 lands, I will happily do so. Beast Within reads: 3 mana, destroy target player.
I don't know how you're setting them back to 0 lands turn three. They should have at least played the land that they bounced turn 2 by turn three. You are pissing away resources you'll need later to barely set them back at all. What's worse is that you are giving them a 3/3 turn 3 when you are unlikely to have any blockers up. You'll probably end up taking 3-6 damage before you're able to do anything about it. If you blow up the beast token that makes it even more hilariously bad, and you are worse off in terms of card advantage than they are.
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If combo should die before I wake I'll slide a Smokestack in every deck I play, roll in every shop wreck the Spirit of EDH.
I don't know how you're setting them back to 0 lands turn three. They should have at least played the land that they bounced turn 2 by turn three. You are pissing away resources you'll need later to barely set them back at all. What's worse is that you are giving them a 3/3 turn 3 when you are unlikely to have any blockers up. You'll probably end up taking 3-6 damage before you're able to do anything about it. If you blow up the beast token that makes it even more hilariously bad, and you are worse off in terms of card advantage than they are.
"At the start of turn three" meaning no one has played anything yet.
But I don't think you understand. In competitive play, games don't often make it past turn five. So they have a beast token, and they make one land drop. Great. I don't think they're stopping me from comboing off. If I have combo in hand, one less player that can stop me is a very good thing, especially at the cost of three mana.
"At the start of turn three" meaning no one has played anything yet.
But I don't think you understand. In competitive play, games don't often make it past turn five. So they have a beast token, and they make one land drop. Great. I don't think they're stopping me from comboing off. If I have combo in hand, one less player that can stop me is a very good thing, especially at the cost of three mana.
So you are assuming you untap before Karoo guy, but whatever; that's arbitrary.
As I said earlier:
Yes, Karoos can get hit by Mass Land Destrustion, and Sylvan Primordial. But, most of the time singling them out is a waste of resources. Unless you play in a stax meta or people are combing out within the first few turns of the game consistently you really shouldn't have to worry about it.
Even then, you've just used what is arguably the best target removal spell in the format to take someone out of the game when you should be holding onto it to keep someone else from winning. I don't play that competitively but it's hard for me to understand why you would use Beast Within on one person's Karoo when your deck is built to consistently combo out and kill the entire table anyway. Why not save it for a Sharuum? It seems completely illogical.
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Actually, it is. A karoo is any land that requires an untapped basic to be returned to your hand (named for Karoo) and then taps for something like W1. A bounceland is the cycle from Ravnica: City of Guilds (like Gruul Turf) that enters the battlefield tapped and bounces any land back to your hand, then taps for 2 colors.
You obviously didn't read trading post. It sacrifices an untapped mountain. Functionally it's far different from the karoo/ravbounce lands. With karoo lands, you get 3 mana spread across 2 cards and 3 land drops. With the post, you get 2 mana across 2 cards and 2 land drops and don't get to take advantage of the first land drop a second time.
Bouncelands are better than most everyone thinks. They are card advantage and manafixing built into your manabase. Yes it has a cost, but it is worth it. In EDH you always want to make your land drop every turn.
I can imagine very hostile tables that warrant removing them, like fighting a pure Annex/Conquer deck. But that's normal metagaming.
I run 3 in my Progenitus deck, the ones that cast Cruel Ultimatum. 3 feels like a good number, maybe 5 is greedy and 10 feels like too much unless you're playing a trick Azusa or a dedicated Armageddon deck.
I run 3 in my Progenitus deck, the ones that cast Cruel Ultimatum. 3 feels like a good number, maybe 5 is greedy and 10 feels like too much unless you're playing a trick Azusa or a dedicated Armageddon deck.
5 might be rough as you might draw multiples. They definitely have their place, however.
I can't bring myself to play these. In fact, I wish I had $1 for every time I've seen someone discard T2 because they played one. I'd probably buy a full tank of gas... Seriously.
/boggle
That said, they aren't horrible. They're nifty with Bojuka Bog.
Ya. Admittedly one large reason I will always run the Ravnica Karros in Mayael the Anima is Naya allows all the good Hideaway lands to be played... I feel sorry for Dimir in that respect.
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If at the start of turn three I can set an opponent back to 0 lands, I will happily do so. Beast Within reads: 3 mana, destroy target player.
Sharuum | Damia | Hermit Druid
I don't know how you're setting them back to 0 lands turn three. They should have at least played the land that they bounced turn 2 by turn three. You are pissing away resources you'll need later to barely set them back at all. What's worse is that you are giving them a 3/3 turn 3 when you are unlikely to have any blockers up. You'll probably end up taking 3-6 damage before you're able to do anything about it. If you blow up the beast token that makes it even more hilariously bad, and you are worse off in terms of card advantage than they are.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
"At the start of turn three" meaning no one has played anything yet.
But I don't think you understand. In competitive play, games don't often make it past turn five. So they have a beast token, and they make one land drop. Great. I don't think they're stopping me from comboing off. If I have combo in hand, one less player that can stop me is a very good thing, especially at the cost of three mana.
Sharuum | Damia | Hermit Druid
So you are assuming you untap before Karoo guy, but whatever; that's arbitrary.
As I said earlier:
Even then, you've just used what is arguably the best target removal spell in the format to take someone out of the game when you should be holding onto it to keep someone else from winning. I don't play that competitively but it's hard for me to understand why you would use Beast Within on one person's Karoo when your deck is built to consistently combo out and kill the entire table anyway. Why not save it for a Sharuum? It seems completely illogical.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
You obviously didn't read trading post. It sacrifices an untapped mountain. Functionally it's far different from the karoo/ravbounce lands. With karoo lands, you get 3 mana spread across 2 cards and 3 land drops. With the post, you get 2 mana across 2 cards and 2 land drops and don't get to take advantage of the first land drop a second time.
I can imagine very hostile tables that warrant removing them, like fighting a pure Annex/Conquer deck. But that's normal metagaming.
I run 3 in my Progenitus deck, the ones that cast Cruel Ultimatum. 3 feels like a good number, maybe 5 is greedy and 10 feels like too much unless you're playing a trick Azusa or a dedicated Armageddon deck.
5 might be rough as you might draw multiples. They definitely have their place, however.
/boggle
That said, they aren't horrible. They're nifty with Bojuka Bog.
Ya. Admittedly one large reason I will always run the Ravnica Karros in Mayael the Anima is Naya allows all the good Hideaway lands to be played... I feel sorry for Dimir in that respect.