Okay.....then we disagree, and I still say karoos are not worth it.
If you don't think they're worth it because of the etbt, i can totally respect that. That's a large part of why I don't use them. I think it's also fair if a lot of incidental land destruction like sylvan primordial is running around in your playgroup - if another person can knock you back 2 turns without compromising themselves, then that hurts a lot and is probably the right play for that person.
I'm not saying the karoos are great lands. They're ok if you're on a budget, I ran them when I didn't have as strong of cards. But it's crazy to say that they're bad because they're hurt by a play that doesn't even make sense. and strip mining a karoo right out of the gate makes no damn sense.
it's not even really a matter of opinion, it's just simple math. Unless you have reason to think the karoo player is a bigger threat (unlikely) then against the table you're losing CA and only pulling even in tempo, in a 3 player game. And more people makes it increasingly worse.
Hey, I'd argue that baboon is at least as good as Karoo lands.
A few reasons I run the Ravnica bounce lands (I don't have any monocolor decks, so the actual Karoos are less useful):
1. Reset Bojuka Bog
2. Extra ramping with Oracle of Mul Daya/Exploration
3. Force 8 cards into hand, so I can discard a dredge card
4. Bait a Strip Mine, that I might better enjoy a hearty belly laugh when I play Cabal Coffers on my next turn
I just noticed this thread and wanted to share my Karoo experience. First off I have a lot of them and not nearly so many shocks and duals so naturally I thought I could use them to make my mana base right?
The more experienced blue player in my group quickly showed me why Karoos kill you for using them. He played venser, shaper savant, on turn four and bounced my Karoo land. Then again later when I had slowly started to rebuild. My board he capsized with buy back my land.
This all at end of turn in multiplayer, my karoos became his mana sink targets.
Getting that to happen even twice in a game is enough to set u back considerably especially on turn four. It is like being behind two whole turns!
Having learned from this experience I only put karoos in my so called junk decks. The decks I expect to lose...
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I just noticed this thread and wanted to share my Karoo experience. First off I have a lot of them and not nearly so many shocks and duals so naturally I thought I could use them to make my mana base right?
The more experienced blue player in my group quickly showed me why Karoos kill you for using them. He played venser, shaper savant, on turn four and bounced my Karoo land. Then again later when I had slowly started to rebuild. My board he capsized with buy back my land.
This all at end of turn in multiplayer, my karoos became his mana sink targets.
Getting that to happen even twice in a game is enough to set u back considerably especially on turn four. It is like being behind two whole turns!
Having learned from this experience I only put karoos in my so called junk decks. The decks I expect to lose...
So a player dismantling your manabase, in a method that would have wrecked ANY manabase, put you off of some very useful lands. Gotcha.
If someone is allowed to capsize repeatedly throughout the turn, then the game is probably already over and he's just picking on you to prove his ill-informed point.
So a player dismantling your manabase, in a method that would have wrecked ANY manabase, put you off of some very useful lands. Gotcha.
If someone is allowed to capsize repeatedly throughout the turn, then the game is probably already over and he's just picking on you to prove his ill-informed point.
while i feel his justification for removing the karoos from his decks is wrong, I don't think that he should play them. If anyone is your meta is playing some bounce-effects that can hit lands, the tempo advantage from bouncing a karoo is pretty relevant.
I personally think they are atrocious lands, and that outside of land untapping shenanigans or reliable use of mana reflection the karoos are just not worth playing.
I don't have any deck with them in - my playgroup likes blowing up my stuff enough as it is - but then, I don't really play much green so my potential for abuse of them is much lower.
but yeah, in all honesty, they suck arse 95% of the time
Turn 1: Basic Land
Turn 2: Basic Land
Turn 3: Karoo
Turn 4: Damn, I didn't draw a land. Oh wait, I have the one I returned to my hand last turn. Weird, because of the Karoo, I hit my land drop.
Turn 5: Oh darn, someone blew up my Karoo. Oh wait, he's an idiot; I'll play my Cabal Coffers now.
Not to mention Lands with ETB effects.
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Turn 1: Basic Land
Turn 2: Basic Land
Turn 3: Karoo
Turn 4: Damn, I didn't draw a land. Oh wait, I have the one I returned to my hand last turn. Weird, because of the Karoo, I hit my land drop.
Turn 5: Oh darn, someone blew up my Karoo. Oh wait, he's an idiot; I'll play my Cabal Coffers now.
Not to mention Lands with ETB effects.
Nice! Now you can tap your Cabal Coffers for a maximum of two whole mana, the amount you used to activate its ability! Also now you only have mono black mana! You nailed it dude.
Nice! Now you can tap your Cabal Coffers for a maximum of two whole mana, the amount you used to activate its ability! Also now you only have mono black mana! You nailed it dude.
I think it's pretty obvious that I didn't mean to play it immediately. The point is that it's generally stupid to waste land destruction on a karoo when there are much more broken lands that will eventually hit the table.
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I think it's pretty obvious that I didn't mean to play it immediately. The point is that it's generally stupid to waste land destruction on a karoo when there are much more broken lands that will eventually hit the table.
hey, karros as a divertion, good idea
already an awesome reason of why to run karoos
while i feel his justification for removing the karoos from his decks is wrong, I don't think that he should play them. If anyone is your meta is playing some bounce-effects that can hit lands, the tempo advantage from bouncing a karoo is pretty relevant.
Ok, what? did you just say my justification was no good... and then repeat my justification as a reason to not play Karoos?
You guys must be playing against some weak stuff. If your decks have time to be two for oned that is all I need to say.
As for venser bouncing my Karoo, you are just not getting it. It puts you two to three turns behind. Think about it.
As for the comment about Some idiot blowing up your Karoo in lieu of your cabal coffers... The Karoo appears to be the target. You are playing at least two colours and the coffers r sucking for you right then. How in the world do you have time to come back from that???
Generally if someone manages to set you back two land drops early in the gme, u r done, or u r just playing junk anyway. And you can probably get away with it.
So a player dismantling your manabase, in a method that would have wrecked ANY manabase, put you off of some very useful lands. Gotcha.
If someone is allowed to capsize repeatedly throughout the turn, then the game is probably already over and he's just picking on you to prove his ill-informed point.
As for the the whole capsize thing. I know a capsize with buy back on line is generally a bad thing. I was not saying he was capsizing x cards a turn. I was saying he capsized my land one time. My point was it is terrible when a single bounce effect can two for one you, and with cards like capsize your Karoo lands actually set you back. Once you see the repeatable bounce effect your opponent is using u r better off not playing the Karoo. Letting it rot in your hand is the play... In addition I fail to see how it would have wrecked any mana base. If the best play for a buyback capsize is to target my forest, island, or swamp than I would say we are both in top deck mode... I can repair my board albeit without advancing each turn and possibly draw something that will improve my board, but I am not per se behind, by more than the one land, not TWO!
Karoo lands effectively provide your opponent with the opportunity to set you back a land drop when they are destroyed. No matter how you see it... I see them as targets to two for one you. ie. strip mine- when targeting a karoo (freshly played or not), reads: destroy said land, AND return another land to that karoo player's hand.
How many land cards can u say that about.
I think it's pretty obvious that I didn't mean to play it immediately. The point is that it's generally stupid to waste land destruction on a karoo when there are much more broken lands that will eventually hit the table.
Lastly I want to say this loud and clear about utility lands. (ie. Cabal coffers, academy ruins, Volrath's stronghold, etc.) They are amazing sure. Awesome, super great cards but if you do not have a mana base in play that actually lets you cast spells or reliably activate abilities, or that is potentially held up by an unsteady base of karoo lands, then the correct LD target is not the utility. It is usually the actual mana base. What better target then a two for one! ie. the karoo
As for the comment about Some idiot blowing up your Karoo in lieu of your cabal coffers... The Karoo appears to be the target. You are playing at least two colours and the coffers r sucking for you right then. How in the world do you have time to come back from that???
Yes, Karoos can get hit by Mass Land Destrustion, and Sylvan Primordial. But, most of the time singling them out is a waste of resources. Unless you play in a stax meta or people are combing out within the first few turns of the game consistently you really shouldn't have to worry about it.
Awesome, super great cards but if you do not have a mana base in play that actually lets you cast spells or reliably activate abilities, or that is potentially held up by an unsteady base of karoo lands, then the correct LD target is not the utility. It is usually the actual mana base. What better target then a two for one! ie. the karoo
Maybe in 1v1, in multiplayer it's a terrible play. in a multiplayer game someone is going to drop a land that you are going to want to deal with at some point.
You guys must be playing against some weak stuff. If your decks have time to be two for oned that is all I need to say.
As for venser bouncing my Karoo, you are just not getting it. It puts you two to three turns behind. Think about it.
As for the comment about Some idiot blowing up your Karoo in lieu of your cabal coffers... The Karoo appears to be the target. You are playing at least two colours and the coffers r sucking for you right then. How in the world do you have time to come back from that???
Generally if someone manages to set you back two land drops early in the gme, u r done, or u r just playing junk anyway. And you can probably get away with it.
And last but not least the whole capsize thing. I know a capsize with buy back on line is generally a bad thing. My point was it is terrible when a single bounce effect can two for one you, and with cards like capsize your Karoo lands actually set you back. Once you see the repeatable bounce effect your opponent is using u r better off not playing the Karoo. Letting it rot in your hand is the play...
How many land cards can u say that about.
shock lands
kepp losing 2 life, i can wait and kill you faster
on a more serious note, why target the guy with Karoos when you can target the guy with original duals? the man with original duals can only have better cards than you if your only fixing is rocks and Karoos and some cool lands that you pulled.
if it's an infinite combo, ok, but the better move would be to set back the one with original duals so that you don't let him drop some expensive game winning card.
TL;DR: my point is that karoos can make it so that you're not a target because they are cheap mana fix compared to other cards(as you mentioned).
Yes, Karoos can get hit by Mass Land Destrustion, and Sylvan Primordial. But, most of the time singling them out is a waste of resources. Unless you play in a stax meta or people are combing out within the first few turns of the game consistently you really shouldn't have to worry about it.
Maybe in 1v1, in multiplayer it's a terrible play. in a multiplayer game someone is going to drop a land that you are going to want to deal with at some point.
If you played basic land, basic land, bounce land and then I destroy your bounce land (like you said earlier), Coffers won't help you recover. Cradle won't help you recover. This is because you haven't had a chance to cast creatures or develop your land base yet. Also, why do you assume that everyone only has one land removal card? I run 8, not including recursion like Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam.
I just noticed this thread and wanted to share my Karoo experience. First off I have a lot of them and not nearly so many shocks and duals so naturally I thought I could use them to make my mana base right?
The more experienced blue player in my group quickly showed me why Karoos kill you for using them. He played venser, shaper savant, on turn four and bounced my Karoo land. Then again later when I had slowly started to rebuild. My board he capsized with buy back my land.
This all at end of turn in multiplayer, my karoos became his mana sink targets.
Getting that to happen even twice in a game is enough to set u back considerably especially on turn four. It is like being behind two whole turns!
Having learned from this experience I only put karoos in my so called junk decks. The decks I expect to lose...
The thing is that for every way one guy has to show someone where Karoo's suck, there are just as many ways to show where they are good. Just a few commonly seen examples - Winter Orb, Static Orb, Argothian Elder, Exploration, Garruk Wildspeaker, Armageddon, Cataclysm, Razia's Purification, etc, etc, etc. Whether you include Karoo's or not should be a function of how often you see one versus the other. Primarily, if you yourself are running a lot of the things that make Karoo's good, you should run them, and if you are running none of those things you probably shouldn't run Karoo's (except for budget concerns).
Discussion outside those terms tends to set up two camps that are both wrong. One camp will say, "OMG, Karoo's = CA, run them in every deck." They are wrong because they fail to analyze the situational vulnerabilities. The other camp will say, "OMG, Karoo's suck face, I'll show u why u n00b." They are wrong because they fail to analyze the situational advantages. Both camps are wrong for the same reason. They're taking a categorical approach rather than the situational approach that's warranted.
On that situational analysis moreover, the cards that lead to powerful situations for Karoo's also happen to be the cards that escape suffering from the Strip Mine's and Boomerang's. If I have a Burgeoning down, I care absolutely zero about my lands being bounced, likewise for the land-limiting cards like Cataclysm, Winter Orb and Armageddon. Even against the cooked-up scenario of a T2 Strip Mine, you wouldn't really care as long as you had enough to get to 4'ish for Geddon/Orb because you are running a deck whose mana-requirements are low, and the lands do not have a long shelf-life anyway. It's a setback on tempo, but it costs the Strip Mine player a lot of tempo too. If you are wildly under-gunned on tempo, then Karoo's are not the right fit for that particular deck. Basically that reads as - if you are just waiting for the first person to hardcast Sylvan Primordial before you start playing, you're in the wrong group for Karoo's. But, it's amazing to me how many people find themselves in that exact group, but still have the confidence to opine categorically about optimization. Particularly if an opponent is doing something like Capsizing a land each turn, all before your deck can put up any kind of pressure to make him stop doing that, you're using them in the wrong deck. If you're playing 1v1, then you're using them in the wrong format on top of that, because relative tempo is achievable there.
A little thought about the optimal situation to play Karoos goes a long way. Right now off the top of my head, I can think of a Kresh deck and a Rafiq deck of mine that will always run Karoo's. I wouldn't change them out even if everyone in my playgroup started to hate them with bounce/spot-LD, because if I'm being hated out that hard, that would say something about the power-level of my deck. When everyone around you starts packing narrow answers for secondary things that only your deck does, that's no indication that the cards suck, just the opposite. So instead of you under-optimizing your deck to avoid narrow hate, what should actually happen is that the power level of other decks in your group will adjust upward until you don't see the same narrow hate against you.
I am guessing that most people that are against the Ravnica Karoos have never actually played with them. A 'sac a land' ETB is also not a Karoo; the term comes from the original Karoo, which came after Heart of Yavimaya cycle people are confusing it with.
The Karoos are generally not something to dedicate a manabase to, but as 3-ofs in a deck, convieniently the max allowed for tri-color, they can allow for several benefits:
1) Provides spare mana without needing to draw another land.
2) Returns utility lands with ETB's like Bojoka Bog for reuse.
3) Interacts very favorably with cards like Candelabra of Tawnos, Garruk Wildspeaker, and Doubling Season.
4) Though risky, can enable discard effects on the turn-2 play.
There is of course the risk of them being destroyed and 'missing' a land drop, but that is balancing essentially having two lands in one. Like any other card, timing and usage to minimize detriments and maximize boons is key. I think the problem people have with Karoos is the same knee-jerk reaction players have with drawback cards like Phyrexian Negator or Keldon Marauders in the 60-card formats. These kinds of cards offer high risk, high yield opportunities and merely need to be played properly to pay off. (An aside, favorite manarock is Phyrexian Totem.) And, as said, if players in a multiplayer format are wasting targeted removal just because they get a 'two-for-one' when there are bigger threats on the board you have bigger issues than mana.
You simply have to make sure they are never open to be destroyed when it would be extremely detrimental. Without a turn-1 play, you would be discarding on the second turn, so obviously you don't play them on the second turn unless you have that Anger in Hand. Play them on turns where you have 3-4 mana and upward, and you minimize losses and might have something like Garruk Wildspeaker online already to chain into another drop. When you already have excess mana for your purposes, you probably don't care about the tempo loss but wish you could reuse that Halimar Depths. And, at any stage of the game where you might already be missing land drops sans-Karoo, who cares if it gets blown up?
I am guessing that most people that are against the Ravnica Karoos have never actually played with them. A 'sac a land' ETB is also not a Karoo; the term comes from the original Karoo, which came after Heart of Yavimaya cycle people are confusing it with.
The Karoos are generally not something to dedicate a manabase to, but as 3-ofs in a deck, convieniently the max allowed for tri-color, they can allow for several benefits:
1) Provides spare mana without needing to draw another land.
2) Returns utility lands with ETB's like Bojoka Bog for reuse.
3) Interacts very favorably with cards like Candelabra of Tawnos, Garruk Wildspeaker, and Doubling Season.
4) Though risky, can enable discard effects on the turn-2 play.
There is of course the risk of them being destroyed and 'missing' a land drop, but that is what balancing essentially having two lands in one. Like any other card, timing and usage to minimize detriments and maximize boons is key. I think the problem people have with Karoos is the same knee-jerk reaction players have with drawback cards like Phyrexian Negator or Keldon Marauders in the 60-card formats. These kinds of cards offer high risk, high yield opportunities and merely need to be played properly to pay off. (An aside, favorite manarock is Phyrexian Totem.) And, as said, if players in a multiplayer format are wasting targeted removal just because they get a 'two-for-one' when there are bigger threats on the board you have bigger issues than mana.
You simply have to make sure are generally never destroyed when it would be extremely detrimental. Without a turn-1 play, you would be discarding on the second turn, so obviously you don't play them on the second turn unless you have that Hatred in Hand. Play them on turns where you have 3-4 mana and upward, and you minimize losses and might have something like Garruk Wildspeaker online already to chain into another drop. When you already have excess mana for your purposes, you probably don't care about the tempo loss but wish you could reuse that Halimar Depths. And, at any stage of the game where you might already be missing land drops sans-Karoo, who cares if it gets blown up?
It's true that some people undervalue them too much, but I personally just hate running them. It doesn't happen THAT often, but there's always that game where the sylvan primordial's target is your karoo land (since you have no better targets).
It's not always going to screw you over, and when it doesn't it gives you a decent advantage, but when it screws you over, it is a terrible situation.
In EDH, it's not fun to have that 1 game where you just get completely screwed by your own card. In 60 card decks, the game will usually be over in a few turns if something that bad happens (like they double lightning bolt your negator). Long term stability is necessary for multiplayer and EDH.
It's true that some people undervalue them too much, but I personally just hate running them. It doesn't happen THAT often, but there's always that game where the sylvan primordial's target is your karoo land (since you have no better targets).
It's not always going to screw you over, and when it doesn't it gives you a decent advantage, but when it screws you over, it is a terrible situation.
In EDH, it's not fun to have that 1 game where you just get completely screwed by your own card. In 60 card decks, the game will usually be over in a few turns if something that bad happens (like they double lightning bolt your negator). Long term stability is necessary for multiplayer and EDH.
Well my point was that by the time they sylvan primordial a Karoo it's at a point where you weren't making every single land drop so it doesn't matter. You might see 2 lands getting destroyed, but you forget for the past 2 turns you often didn't draw a land to drop anyway, so by that point it is basically like they destroyed any other land. And I don't think Karoos are the screw over category as hard as Phyrexian Negator, who isn't playable in EDH but whose Phyrexian Totem is quite doable for post-wrath damage.
As I said, I think most of this comes down to people severely overvaluing potential loss. All of the points I've seen against these lands are generally situations where you were pretty screwed anyway and ones I would take active steps not to open myself up to through proper play; do things like play them later when you begin to stall on land.
Well my point was that by the time they sylvan primordial a Karoo it's at a point where you weren't making every single land drop so it doesn't matter. You might see 2 lands getting destroyed, but you forget for the past 2 turns you often didn't draw a land to drop anyway, so by that point it is basically like they destroyed any other land. And I don't think Karoos are the screw over category as hard as Phyrexian Negator, who isn't playable in EDH but whose Phyrexian Totem is quite doable for post-wrath damage.
As I said, I think most of this comes down to people severely overvaluing potential loss. All of the points I've seen against these lands are generally situations where you were pretty screwed anyway and ones I would take active steps not to open myself up to through proper play; do things like play them later when you begin to stall on land.
The thing about playing them late, though, is that they lose some of their purpose. Karoo lands are good because they smooth out your land drops. With a 2-land hand, you basically have 3 lands (if 1 is a karoo). Playing it that late, it doesn't really add that much.
If you avoid playing them when they are most useful, you are more safe, but gain very little.
On the opposite side, you gain a bunch, but could lose a bunch too (really just tempo - it's never about card advantage loss). In a 1v1, it's almost game over at that point. Maybe it depends on meta, but in my group, if there is only 1 other person, and you decide to 1v1, it will almost always get hit by something.
EDIT:
I don't think they're that bad, but I still don't like using them. The advantage is so little, and because of the way they are, regardless of if it is an overall good play, someone will likely blow it up.
Well my point was that by the time they sylvan primordial a Karoo it's at a point where you weren't making every single land drop so it doesn't matter. You might see 2 lands getting destroyed, but you forget for the past 2 turns you often didn't draw a land to drop anyway, so by that point it is basically like they destroyed any other land. And I don't think Karoos are the screw over category as hard as Phyrexian Negator, who isn't playable in EDH but whose Phyrexian Totem is quite doable for post-wrath damage.
As I said, I think most of this comes down to people severely overvaluing potential loss. All of the points I've seen against these lands are generally situations where you were pretty screwed anyway and ones I would take active steps not to open myself up to through proper play; do things like play them later when you begin to stall on land.
This is a really good point.
The moment you've still got your Karoo on board and you make a land drop that you otherwise would've missed without that Karoo bounce, you've just normalized the risk of losing that Karoo. Say you've got 7 mana on board, you'd have 6 without having drawn the Karoo, and so a spot LD puts you to 5 mana in either scenario.
Failure to analyze this point is loss aversion. You believe that you're entitled to that 7 mana that you reached, pay no thanks to the Karoo that ensured your land drop up to that count, then you see only the vulnerability.
Whether you play it late or early, it doesn't always matter. The risk effectively disappears when you make the land drop that the Karoo earned you, i.e, when the last land from your hand comes down. Playing the Karoo early only leaves you exposed for more turns. And with certain cards like Oracle of Mul-Daya and Exploration, that point comes much earlier, while with other cards like Life from the Loam, that point may come quite late, or not at all. But a lot of the time unless your deck has tons of gas, that point is going to come before the point where your opponent starts to evaluate activating a Strip Mine on it as a cost-free play for him. So the actual risk only exists in a brief window where, as has been mentioned above, game strategy itself minimizes it.
Also, why do you assume that everyone only has one land removal card? I run 8, not including recursion like Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam.
I don't think most people run 8 dedicated land destruction cards to be honest. I don't think stax decks even run that many if you're just counting target/mass removal. Of corse playing Karoos against your deck is bad, just like playing a reanimation deck against a deck stuffed with graveyard hate is bad.
Whether you play it late or early, it doesn't always matter. The risk effectively disappears when you make the land drop that the Karoo earned you, i.e, when the last land from your hand comes down. Playing the Karoo early only leaves you exposed for more turns. And with certain cards like Oracle of Mul-Daya and Exploration, that point comes much earlier, while with other cards like Life from the Loam, that point may come quite late, or not at all. But a lot of the time unless your deck has tons of gas, that point is going to come before the point where your opponent starts to evaluate activating a Strip Mine on it as a cost-free play for him. So the actual risk only exists in a brief window where, as has been mentioned above, game strategy itself minimizes it.
Thank you, someone gets it.
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I don't think most people run 8 dedicated land destruction cards to be honest. I don't think stax decks even run that many if you're just counting target/mass removal. Of corse playing Karoos against your deck is bad, just like playing a reanimation deck against a deck stuffed with graveyard hate is bad.
I'm not just a dedicated land destroyer. Yeah, I run Strip Mine and Wasteland, but I make sure all of my removal is versatile. Ie Beast Within, Vindicate, land wraths and stax effects.
I'm not just a dedicated land destroyer. Yeah, I run Strip Mine and Wasteland, but I make sure all of my removal is versatile. Ie Beast Within, Vindicate, land wraths and stax effects.
By dedicated land destruction I meant cards that only blow up lands.
Using a Vindicate/Beast Within to blow up a Karoo is a terrible, terrible, terrible play.
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I use a few in my Borborygmos Enraged deck because of the great synergy there, and I'm planning on adding a few into my Melek spell combo deck as a way to more reliably go off with Turnabout, Reset and Time Spiral. I'm also kind of excited to try out Soldevi Excavations
They have their place in EDH for sure. Juicing syngeristical abilities out of your land slots is one of the best ways to edge your deck into being better and better without risking much.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
If you don't think they're worth it because of the etbt, i can totally respect that. That's a large part of why I don't use them. I think it's also fair if a lot of incidental land destruction like sylvan primordial is running around in your playgroup - if another person can knock you back 2 turns without compromising themselves, then that hurts a lot and is probably the right play for that person.
I'm not saying the karoos are great lands. They're ok if you're on a budget, I ran them when I didn't have as strong of cards. But it's crazy to say that they're bad because they're hurt by a play that doesn't even make sense. and strip mining a karoo right out of the gate makes no damn sense.
it's not even really a matter of opinion, it's just simple math. Unless you have reason to think the karoo player is a bigger threat (unlikely) then against the table you're losing CA and only pulling even in tempo, in a 3 player game. And more people makes it increasingly worse.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Fast land hate is good land hate.
A few reasons I run the Ravnica bounce lands (I don't have any monocolor decks, so the actual Karoos are less useful):
1. Reset Bojuka Bog
2. Extra ramping with Oracle of Mul Daya/Exploration
3. Force 8 cards into hand, so I can discard a dredge card
4. Bait a Strip Mine, that I might better enjoy a hearty belly laugh when I play Cabal Coffers on my next turn
Reasons I might run Ravenous Baboons:
1 through 71: ...?
72. It's fun to say baboons.
Seriously, baboons. BABOOOONS!
Doesn't make it a good card
I just noticed this thread and wanted to share my Karoo experience. First off I have a lot of them and not nearly so many shocks and duals so naturally I thought I could use them to make my mana base right?
The more experienced blue player in my group quickly showed me why Karoos kill you for using them. He played venser, shaper savant, on turn four and bounced my Karoo land. Then again later when I had slowly started to rebuild. My board he capsized with buy back my land.
This all at end of turn in multiplayer, my karoos became his mana sink targets.
Getting that to happen even twice in a game is enough to set u back considerably especially on turn four. It is like being behind two whole turns!
Having learned from this experience I only put karoos in my so called junk decks. The decks I expect to lose...
So a player dismantling your manabase, in a method that would have wrecked ANY manabase, put you off of some very useful lands. Gotcha.
If someone is allowed to capsize repeatedly throughout the turn, then the game is probably already over and he's just picking on you to prove his ill-informed point.
---
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
WUB Sharuum, the Hegemon
UGEdric, Spymaster of Trest
while i feel his justification for removing the karoos from his decks is wrong, I don't think that he should play them. If anyone is your meta is playing some bounce-effects that can hit lands, the tempo advantage from bouncing a karoo is pretty relevant.
I personally think they are atrocious lands, and that outside of land untapping shenanigans or reliable use of mana reflection the karoos are just not worth playing.
I don't have any deck with them in - my playgroup likes blowing up my stuff enough as it is - but then, I don't really play much green so my potential for abuse of them is much lower.
but yeah, in all honesty, they suck arse 95% of the time
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!
Turn 1: Basic Land
Turn 2: Basic Land
Turn 3: Karoo
Turn 4: Damn, I didn't draw a land. Oh wait, I have the one I returned to my hand last turn. Weird, because of the Karoo, I hit my land drop.
Turn 5: Oh darn, someone blew up my Karoo. Oh wait, he's an idiot; I'll play my Cabal Coffers now.
Not to mention Lands with ETB effects.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
Nice! Now you can tap your Cabal Coffers for a maximum of two whole mana, the amount you used to activate its ability! Also now you only have mono black mana! You nailed it dude.
Sharuum | Damia | Hermit Druid
I think it's pretty obvious that I didn't mean to play it immediately. The point is that it's generally stupid to waste land destruction on a karoo when there are much more broken lands that will eventually hit the table.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
hey, karros as a divertion, good idea
already an awesome reason of why to run karoos
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
Ok, what? did you just say my justification was no good... and then repeat my justification as a reason to not play Karoos?
You guys must be playing against some weak stuff. If your decks have time to be two for oned that is all I need to say.
As for venser bouncing my Karoo, you are just not getting it. It puts you two to three turns behind. Think about it.
As for the comment about Some idiot blowing up your Karoo in lieu of your cabal coffers... The Karoo appears to be the target. You are playing at least two colours and the coffers r sucking for you right then. How in the world do you have time to come back from that???
Generally if someone manages to set you back two land drops early in the gme, u r done, or u r just playing junk anyway. And you can probably get away with it.
As for the the whole capsize thing. I know a capsize with buy back on line is generally a bad thing. I was not saying he was capsizing x cards a turn. I was saying he capsized my land one time. My point was it is terrible when a single bounce effect can two for one you, and with cards like capsize your Karoo lands actually set you back. Once you see the repeatable bounce effect your opponent is using u r better off not playing the Karoo. Letting it rot in your hand is the play... In addition I fail to see how it would have wrecked any mana base. If the best play for a buyback capsize is to target my forest, island, or swamp than I would say we are both in top deck mode... I can repair my board albeit without advancing each turn and possibly draw something that will improve my board, but I am not per se behind, by more than the one land, not TWO!
Karoo lands effectively provide your opponent with the opportunity to set you back a land drop when they are destroyed. No matter how you see it... I see them as targets to two for one you. ie. strip mine- when targeting a karoo (freshly played or not), reads: destroy said land, AND return another land to that karoo player's hand.
How many land cards can u say that about.
Lastly I want to say this loud and clear about utility lands. (ie. Cabal coffers, academy ruins, Volrath's stronghold, etc.) They are amazing sure. Awesome, super great cards but if you do not have a mana base in play that actually lets you cast spells or reliably activate abilities, or that is potentially held up by an unsteady base of karoo lands, then the correct LD target is not the utility. It is usually the actual mana base. What better target then a two for one! ie. the karoo
You know, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth exists. Either way, coffers is far from the only broken land in magic. Gaea's Cradle would be another example.
Yes, Karoos can get hit by Mass Land Destrustion, and Sylvan Primordial. But, most of the time singling them out is a waste of resources. Unless you play in a stax meta or people are combing out within the first few turns of the game consistently you really shouldn't have to worry about it.
Maybe in 1v1, in multiplayer it's a terrible play. in a multiplayer game someone is going to drop a land that you are going to want to deal with at some point.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
shock lands
kepp losing 2 life, i can wait and kill you faster
on a more serious note, why target the guy with Karoos when you can target the guy with original duals? the man with original duals can only have better cards than you if your only fixing is rocks and Karoos and some cool lands that you pulled.
if it's an infinite combo, ok, but the better move would be to set back the one with original duals so that you don't let him drop some expensive game winning card.
TL;DR: my point is that karoos can make it so that you're not a target because they are cheap mana fix compared to other cards(as you mentioned).
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
If you played basic land, basic land, bounce land and then I destroy your bounce land (like you said earlier), Coffers won't help you recover. Cradle won't help you recover. This is because you haven't had a chance to cast creatures or develop your land base yet. Also, why do you assume that everyone only has one land removal card? I run 8, not including recursion like Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam.
To paraphrase, "play karoos because everyone knows they're bad so other people won't target you."
Sharuum | Damia | Hermit Druid
The thing is that for every way one guy has to show someone where Karoo's suck, there are just as many ways to show where they are good. Just a few commonly seen examples - Winter Orb, Static Orb, Argothian Elder, Exploration, Garruk Wildspeaker, Armageddon, Cataclysm, Razia's Purification, etc, etc, etc. Whether you include Karoo's or not should be a function of how often you see one versus the other. Primarily, if you yourself are running a lot of the things that make Karoo's good, you should run them, and if you are running none of those things you probably shouldn't run Karoo's (except for budget concerns).
Discussion outside those terms tends to set up two camps that are both wrong. One camp will say, "OMG, Karoo's = CA, run them in every deck." They are wrong because they fail to analyze the situational vulnerabilities. The other camp will say, "OMG, Karoo's suck face, I'll show u why u n00b." They are wrong because they fail to analyze the situational advantages. Both camps are wrong for the same reason. They're taking a categorical approach rather than the situational approach that's warranted.
On that situational analysis moreover, the cards that lead to powerful situations for Karoo's also happen to be the cards that escape suffering from the Strip Mine's and Boomerang's. If I have a Burgeoning down, I care absolutely zero about my lands being bounced, likewise for the land-limiting cards like Cataclysm, Winter Orb and Armageddon. Even against the cooked-up scenario of a T2 Strip Mine, you wouldn't really care as long as you had enough to get to 4'ish for Geddon/Orb because you are running a deck whose mana-requirements are low, and the lands do not have a long shelf-life anyway. It's a setback on tempo, but it costs the Strip Mine player a lot of tempo too. If you are wildly under-gunned on tempo, then Karoo's are not the right fit for that particular deck. Basically that reads as - if you are just waiting for the first person to hardcast Sylvan Primordial before you start playing, you're in the wrong group for Karoo's. But, it's amazing to me how many people find themselves in that exact group, but still have the confidence to opine categorically about optimization. Particularly if an opponent is doing something like Capsizing a land each turn, all before your deck can put up any kind of pressure to make him stop doing that, you're using them in the wrong deck. If you're playing 1v1, then you're using them in the wrong format on top of that, because relative tempo is achievable there.
A little thought about the optimal situation to play Karoos goes a long way. Right now off the top of my head, I can think of a Kresh deck and a Rafiq deck of mine that will always run Karoo's. I wouldn't change them out even if everyone in my playgroup started to hate them with bounce/spot-LD, because if I'm being hated out that hard, that would say something about the power-level of my deck. When everyone around you starts packing narrow answers for secondary things that only your deck does, that's no indication that the cards suck, just the opposite. So instead of you under-optimizing your deck to avoid narrow hate, what should actually happen is that the power level of other decks in your group will adjust upward until you don't see the same narrow hate against you.
The Karoos are generally not something to dedicate a manabase to, but as 3-ofs in a deck, convieniently the max allowed for tri-color, they can allow for several benefits:
1) Provides spare mana without needing to draw another land.
2) Returns utility lands with ETB's like Bojoka Bog for reuse.
3) Interacts very favorably with cards like Candelabra of Tawnos, Garruk Wildspeaker, and Doubling Season.
4) Though risky, can enable discard effects on the turn-2 play.
There is of course the risk of them being destroyed and 'missing' a land drop, but that is balancing essentially having two lands in one. Like any other card, timing and usage to minimize detriments and maximize boons is key. I think the problem people have with Karoos is the same knee-jerk reaction players have with drawback cards like Phyrexian Negator or Keldon Marauders in the 60-card formats. These kinds of cards offer high risk, high yield opportunities and merely need to be played properly to pay off. (An aside, favorite manarock is Phyrexian Totem.) And, as said, if players in a multiplayer format are wasting targeted removal just because they get a 'two-for-one' when there are bigger threats on the board you have bigger issues than mana.
You simply have to make sure they are never open to be destroyed when it would be extremely detrimental. Without a turn-1 play, you would be discarding on the second turn, so obviously you don't play them on the second turn unless you have that Anger in Hand. Play them on turns where you have 3-4 mana and upward, and you minimize losses and might have something like Garruk Wildspeaker online already to chain into another drop. When you already have excess mana for your purposes, you probably don't care about the tempo loss but wish you could reuse that Halimar Depths. And, at any stage of the game where you might already be missing land drops sans-Karoo, who cares if it gets blown up?
EDIT: Meant Anger, not Hatred... grammar
It's true that some people undervalue them too much, but I personally just hate running them. It doesn't happen THAT often, but there's always that game where the sylvan primordial's target is your karoo land (since you have no better targets).
It's not always going to screw you over, and when it doesn't it gives you a decent advantage, but when it screws you over, it is a terrible situation.
In EDH, it's not fun to have that 1 game where you just get completely screwed by your own card. In 60 card decks, the game will usually be over in a few turns if something that bad happens (like they double lightning bolt your negator). Long term stability is necessary for multiplayer and EDH.
BBB Two Hundred Zombies BBB
Duel Commander
WR Tajic, Wrath of the Manlands RW
BGW Doran Destruction WGB
Commander
GUB Mimeoplasm, Screw Politics BUG
BR Mogis, God of Slaughter RB
RGW Marath, Ramp and Removal WGR
WUBRG Karona, Jank God GRBUW
Well my point was that by the time they sylvan primordial a Karoo it's at a point where you weren't making every single land drop so it doesn't matter. You might see 2 lands getting destroyed, but you forget for the past 2 turns you often didn't draw a land to drop anyway, so by that point it is basically like they destroyed any other land. And I don't think Karoos are the screw over category as hard as Phyrexian Negator, who isn't playable in EDH but whose Phyrexian Totem is quite doable for post-wrath damage.
As I said, I think most of this comes down to people severely overvaluing potential loss. All of the points I've seen against these lands are generally situations where you were pretty screwed anyway and ones I would take active steps not to open myself up to through proper play; do things like play them later when you begin to stall on land.
The thing about playing them late, though, is that they lose some of their purpose. Karoo lands are good because they smooth out your land drops. With a 2-land hand, you basically have 3 lands (if 1 is a karoo). Playing it that late, it doesn't really add that much.
If you avoid playing them when they are most useful, you are more safe, but gain very little.
On the opposite side, you gain a bunch, but could lose a bunch too (really just tempo - it's never about card advantage loss). In a 1v1, it's almost game over at that point. Maybe it depends on meta, but in my group, if there is only 1 other person, and you decide to 1v1, it will almost always get hit by something.
EDIT:
I don't think they're that bad, but I still don't like using them. The advantage is so little, and because of the way they are, regardless of if it is an overall good play, someone will likely blow it up.
BBB Two Hundred Zombies BBB
Duel Commander
WR Tajic, Wrath of the Manlands RW
BGW Doran Destruction WGB
Commander
GUB Mimeoplasm, Screw Politics BUG
BR Mogis, God of Slaughter RB
RGW Marath, Ramp and Removal WGR
WUBRG Karona, Jank God GRBUW
This is a really good point.
The moment you've still got your Karoo on board and you make a land drop that you otherwise would've missed without that Karoo bounce, you've just normalized the risk of losing that Karoo. Say you've got 7 mana on board, you'd have 6 without having drawn the Karoo, and so a spot LD puts you to 5 mana in either scenario.
Failure to analyze this point is loss aversion. You believe that you're entitled to that 7 mana that you reached, pay no thanks to the Karoo that ensured your land drop up to that count, then you see only the vulnerability.
Whether you play it late or early, it doesn't always matter. The risk effectively disappears when you make the land drop that the Karoo earned you, i.e, when the last land from your hand comes down. Playing the Karoo early only leaves you exposed for more turns. And with certain cards like Oracle of Mul-Daya and Exploration, that point comes much earlier, while with other cards like Life from the Loam, that point may come quite late, or not at all. But a lot of the time unless your deck has tons of gas, that point is going to come before the point where your opponent starts to evaluate activating a Strip Mine on it as a cost-free play for him. So the actual risk only exists in a brief window where, as has been mentioned above, game strategy itself minimizes it.
I don't think most people run 8 dedicated land destruction cards to be honest. I don't think stax decks even run that many if you're just counting target/mass removal. Of corse playing Karoos against your deck is bad, just like playing a reanimation deck against a deck stuffed with graveyard hate is bad.
Thank you, someone gets it.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
I'm not just a dedicated land destroyer. Yeah, I run Strip Mine and Wasteland, but I make sure all of my removal is versatile. Ie Beast Within, Vindicate, land wraths and stax effects.
Sharuum | Damia | Hermit Druid
By dedicated land destruction I meant cards that only blow up lands.
Using a Vindicate/Beast Within to blow up a Karoo is a terrible, terrible, terrible play.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
I use a few in my Borborygmos Enraged deck because of the great synergy there, and I'm planning on adding a few into my Melek spell combo deck as a way to more reliably go off with Turnabout, Reset and Time Spiral. I'm also kind of excited to try out Soldevi Excavations
They have their place in EDH for sure. Juicing syngeristical abilities out of your land slots is one of the best ways to edge your deck into being better and better without risking much.
U Soramaro, First to Dream U (decklist)
W Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite W (decklist)
Nath of the Gilt-Leaf (decklist)
Glissa, The Traitor (decklist)
Jhoira of the Ghitu
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Borborygmos, Enraged (decklist)
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG
WRG Uril, the Miststalker WRG (decklist)