Questions like this are why no "Grand Unified Theory of Magic" can ever really be trusted.
This. And in terms of the original discussion (vs MLD), Karoos become definitive advantage because you end up with an extra card in hand after it happens (without having to have missed a land drop). I'd like to see someone argue about how MLD is actually GOOD against Karoos (which many people have been postulating), rather than simply terrible against them.
Questions like this are why no "Grand Unified Theory of Magic" can ever really be trusted.
Agreed. Taking "card advantage" too far is a mistake in a game where every card does something different. If you are playing a game like Poker where the holdings are easy to analyze, the value of an additional card is easy to measure. But in Magic, the value of a card relates to that of other cards in ways that are not 1 to 1.
So in a pure world where every single card is only allowed to ever produce one mana, adding Karoos is "card advantage" because they put an extra land into your hand for the same amount of mana. In the real world, their power is best compared alongside what else is available and what interacts with them. And under that analysis, they are still good a lot of the time
One place I consistently get a lot of value from is with Karoos and Realms Uncharted. In a 3-color deck, that's usually worth 4 land drops and a land like Academy Ruins or Volrath's Stronghold in the grave. Compared to cards like Seek the Horizon and Endless Horizons, each has its own benefits and vulnerabilities. But dismissing options as categorically bad without any analysis is not doing yourself any favors.
Everyone's assuming that you're playing the karoo immediately before a land wrath. If that's true, sure you benefit a little but the person who's wrathing lands knows you just put a land in your hand and will probably wait till it's back on the field. Also, the land comes into play tapped. Deal breaker.
Turn one and two you can only cast something for 1 mana but if you don't, the karoo will make you discard.
I'm not trying to argue or play devil's advocate, I just want to make sure everyone knows that if you want to play in a competitive group, do not play karoos. There are a lot of much better options. PM me if you want to know what they are.
Everyone's assuming that you're playing the karoo immediately before a land wrath. If that's true, sure you benefit a little but the person who's wrathing lands knows you just put a land in your hand and will probably wait till it's back on the field. Also, the land comes into play tapped. Deal breaker.
Turn one and two you can only cast something for 1 mana but if you don't, the karoo will make you discard.
I'm not trying to argue or play devil's advocate, I just want to make sure everyone knows that if you want to play in a competitive group, do not play karoos. There are a lot of much better options. PM me if you want to know what they are.
A group where someone can just hold onto a land wrath, no pressure added until he's confident everyone has played out their entire hand, is not a very evolved playgroup. That suggests that land wipes are disproportionately strong relative to everything else everyone is doing, and if that's the case, people need to adapt to do more powerful things outside of that. A deck that uses LD as a linchpin of its strategy and is proportionately powerful relative to opposing decks has no greater ability to sandbag its cards than the other decks.
On playing early Karoo's and discarding, the same is true of any deck whose draw is substantially cheaper than the rest of its curve. A turn 2 Night's Whisper makes you discard provided nothing was played on turn 1. But faster decks have lower curves, they make turn 1 and turn 2 plays often, and so this won't happen.
The CIPT issue is always an issue with lands, but the CIPT trait on other lands gives you nothing in return. The CIPT on Karoos puts a land into your hand, and in a lot of decks paying 1 for another land in hand is totally worth it. It's not as convenient because it's forced, but its abstract power is worth the mana you pay.
I'm not trying to argue or play devil's advocate either. It's just that I also want everyone to know my position is correct without me having to fully back it up. And if you want me to back it up, instead of posting in the open subject to the analysis of others, we can PM each other and silently reinforce our preconceived notions without risk of them being challenged.....
I mean, seriously. If that line isn't an indication that Karoo's are getting unfair, biased analysis, I don't know what is.
A group where someone can just hold onto a land wrath, no pressure added until he's confident everyone has played out their entire hand, is not a very evolved playgroup. That suggests that land wipes are disproportionately strong relative to everything else everyone is doing, and if that's the case, people need to adapt to do more powerful things outside of that. A deck that uses LD as a linchpin of its strategy and is proportionately powerful relative to opposing decks has no greater ability to sandbag its cards than the other decks.
On playing early Karoo's and discarding, the same is true of any deck whose draw is substantially cheaper than the rest of its curve. A turn 2 Night's Whisper makes you discard provided nothing was played on turn 1. But faster decks have lower curves, they make turn 1 and turn 2 plays often, and so this won't happen.
The CIPT issue is always an issue with lands, but the CIPT trait on other lands gives you nothing in return. The CIPT on Karoos puts a land into your hand, and in a lot of decks paying 1 for another land in hand is totally worth it. It's not as convenient because it's forced, but its abstract power is worth the mana you pay.
I'm not trying to argue or play devil's advocate either. It's just that I also want everyone to know my position is correct without me having to fully back it up. And if you want me to back it up, instead of posting in the open subject to the analysis of others, we can PM each other and silently reinforce our preconceived notions without risk of them being challenged.....
I mean, seriously. If that line isn't an indication that Karoo's are getting unfair, biased analysis, I don't know what is.
Well, it's not that the subject is necessarily volatile. I just find certain evasive, discussion-suppressing debate tactics offensive in themselves. People could be talking about whether they like Diet Coke or Coke Classic, but if they do it in a way that dispossesses the virtues of open discourse, I will jump in and defend the worth of that discourse.
Which is why, I suppose, I can't stand to watch cable news, lol.
I apologize if I was seeming evasive or discussion-repressive. I'm actually just relaying information that I was told by the best magic player I know, and I'm glad he told me; my land base and tempo feels a lot more solid now. However, I realize that my meta is very cut-throat and perhaps my advice doesn't hold true in other groups. Karoos are great lands in budget decks or groups more casual than my own. Listen to Justice, he gave some good reasons for why this is.
It would be hard to know if you're doing that, A. If they've got a good deck, they've probably got a good mana base and can get that second color quickly, B. And even if you totally shut them down, like, 100%, if you're in a 3 player game, now it's you vs another player and you're a land down, C. Personally I prefer my odds in an evenly matched 3-player game, unless you know the third player is bad. Ofc if you're shutting down the scariest deck, then that might make sense, as I said before.
But that's still assuming 3 player. add more players, and it becomes a bad move REAL quickly. most games I play are 4 player, so losing a land just to tempo roll one player out of 3, and probably not a strong one considering he's using karoos? Definitely not.
For the same reason karoos aren't bad against geddon, they're not bad against ruination.
Never seen anyone use detritivore, ever.
are there situations where they're bad? yes, definitely. But there are times I wish I had basics instead of my duals + fetches pool, that doesn't mean they're not good cards. It means everything has a weakness.
If you strip a Rav karoo early, everyone laughs and has lots of fun. It's not a bad play.
What? Everyone else might be laughing but it's just rude to the karoo guy. Not to mention you'll be cursing yourself when Cradle/Ruins/Coffers/Stronghold/Maze lands the next turn, and you put yourself a land back to put one other guy two back and do nothing to the rest of the table.
To defend myself: My playgroup is better than most playgroups. We have a wide variety of player, decks, and playstyles. We've only complained to one player about his decks because he uses banned cards. Anything goes, it's just that some avenues haven't been explored yet. If they don't like LD, they'll just make decks with more answers.
Frequently, we'll play a deck we just thought up to be annoying or devastating...or whatever. When we accomplish our goal, that's all. We'll just play another deck, at that point. We all have more than one deck and if something is not getting there, we can just play something else. Please don't worry about my playgroup. They're all adults and they'll be fine without someone to kiss their boo-boos.
Now, about those boo-boos! I don't care about what you feel about karoos. I really only want to know if anyone has successfully executed a land destruction strategy and what did they do to get there.
Jeff, one of my favorite strategies in LD against Karoo's is land count. If you're in green and making even an extra land drop or two over the people setting their land count back continuously with Karoo effects, dropping Thoughts of Ruin could be an Armageddon to them while only setting you back a few lands.
What? Everyone else might be laughing but it's just rude to the karoo guy. Not to mention you'll be cursing yourself when Cradle/Ruins/Coffers/Stronghold/Maze lands the next turn, and you put yourself a land back to put one other guy two back and do nothing to the rest of the table.
Turn three...I think Maze is the only issue there, right? It's EDH. Why are you sweating anything? It's not a bad play when it enhances the fun of the group. You just put a target on your head from the other guy. You guys should chill out and try to enjoy the game.
Turn three...I think Maze is the only issue there, right? It's EDH. Why are you sweating anything? It's not a bad play when it enhances the fun of the group. You just put a target on your head from the other guy. You guys should chill out and try to enjoy the game.
So stripping someone's land for no reason enhances the fun of the group, and extremely powerful utility lands aren't problematic unless they come out later in the game. Are you playing Bizarro EDH or something?
.....why is killing an early Rav karoo stupid if you're shutting them off a color?
Well if the game is continuing for 12-20 more turns, then any tempo you gain from killing a karoo will be regained and they'll eventually cast their powerful spells. Especially if your decks average card quality is lower (from playing a large amount of single target non-land LD with no other effects)
Turn three...I think Maze is the only issue there, right? It's EDH. Why are you sweating anything? It's not a bad play when it enhances the fun of the group. You just put a target on your head from the other guy. You guys should chill out and try to enjoy the game.
If I was at the table, it'd enhance the hell out of my fun because 1 opponent set himself back a turn to set another opponent back 2 turns. If it's a 3 player game, I've probably just won.
But it seems sort of silly to base your opinion of the power of a card on what might happen if another player is throwing the game for a "fun move". Which I don't understand either, because relatively small and badly planned tempo plays are the opposite of fun or interesting for me. "Fun plays" in EDH require doing combat math with numbers larger than 100, imo.
I normally hold back against lands that actually do something. It's like "counter the spell, not the tutor." I've had people actively destroy karoo lands before, only to get curb stomped later game with a utility land. Not mine, but other people's. I just sit there and think, "why did you gun your own land that early and not wait for the guy that's holding back his answers for you to use your Strip Mine?"
In a long game, the tempo may work and it may not work. There are also other ways to punish people for doing things, like Price of Progress that adds damage relative to the amount of nonbasics in the game and can add up fairly quickly sometimes for 5+damage for 2 mana.
Karoos and Lairs are fine for cheap mana bases, it's the other people who have the power cards that you need to worry about.
The only time I can see blowing up a karoo is to stop someone from casting their general or a similar power card while they're getting mana screwed. But for that there's several other things in red that can chomp down on nonbasics like Trench Wurm. I love that card, was so nifty during Invasion block and today just eats greedy mana bases for lunch. Or as I like to call him, "Stone Rain with buyback."
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This. And in terms of the original discussion (vs MLD), Karoos become definitive advantage because you end up with an extra card in hand after it happens (without having to have missed a land drop). I'd like to see someone argue about how MLD is actually GOOD against Karoos (which many people have been postulating), rather than simply terrible against them.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Agreed. Taking "card advantage" too far is a mistake in a game where every card does something different. If you are playing a game like Poker where the holdings are easy to analyze, the value of an additional card is easy to measure. But in Magic, the value of a card relates to that of other cards in ways that are not 1 to 1.
So in a pure world where every single card is only allowed to ever produce one mana, adding Karoos is "card advantage" because they put an extra land into your hand for the same amount of mana. In the real world, their power is best compared alongside what else is available and what interacts with them. And under that analysis, they are still good a lot of the time
One place I consistently get a lot of value from is with Karoos and Realms Uncharted. In a 3-color deck, that's usually worth 4 land drops and a land like Academy Ruins or Volrath's Stronghold in the grave. Compared to cards like Seek the Horizon and Endless Horizons, each has its own benefits and vulnerabilities. But dismissing options as categorically bad without any analysis is not doing yourself any favors.
Turn one and two you can only cast something for 1 mana but if you don't, the karoo will make you discard.
I'm not trying to argue or play devil's advocate, I just want to make sure everyone knows that if you want to play in a competitive group, do not play karoos. There are a lot of much better options. PM me if you want to know what they are.
Sharuum | Damia | Hermit Druid
A group where someone can just hold onto a land wrath, no pressure added until he's confident everyone has played out their entire hand, is not a very evolved playgroup. That suggests that land wipes are disproportionately strong relative to everything else everyone is doing, and if that's the case, people need to adapt to do more powerful things outside of that. A deck that uses LD as a linchpin of its strategy and is proportionately powerful relative to opposing decks has no greater ability to sandbag its cards than the other decks.
On playing early Karoo's and discarding, the same is true of any deck whose draw is substantially cheaper than the rest of its curve. A turn 2 Night's Whisper makes you discard provided nothing was played on turn 1. But faster decks have lower curves, they make turn 1 and turn 2 plays often, and so this won't happen.
The CIPT issue is always an issue with lands, but the CIPT trait on other lands gives you nothing in return. The CIPT on Karoos puts a land into your hand, and in a lot of decks paying 1 for another land in hand is totally worth it. It's not as convenient because it's forced, but its abstract power is worth the mana you pay.
I'm not trying to argue or play devil's advocate either. It's just that I also want everyone to know my position is correct without me having to fully back it up. And if you want me to back it up, instead of posting in the open subject to the analysis of others, we can PM each other and silently reinforce our preconceived notions without risk of them being challenged.....
I mean, seriously. If that line isn't an indication that Karoo's are getting unfair, biased analysis, I don't know what is.
I had no idea Karoo was such a volatile subject.
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Christ, dude, that was brutal O.o
I think... I think I love you...
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It wasn't brutal, it was ...
Justice.
youseewhadididthur?
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No un-thank button next to your post... so should I just report you or something?
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Rofl.
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Well, it's not that the subject is necessarily volatile. I just find certain evasive, discussion-suppressing debate tactics offensive in themselves. People could be talking about whether they like Diet Coke or Coke Classic, but if they do it in a way that dispossesses the virtues of open discourse, I will jump in and defend the worth of that discourse.
Which is why, I suppose, I can't stand to watch cable news, lol.
Sharuum | Damia | Hermit Druid
.......are you playing competitively or EDH?
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Your question is confusing enough that I think I must be misinterpreting it.
EDH is usually casual but that's still no reason to make blatantly wrong plays, especially if it's just to screw someone else over.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
If you're trying to imply that the two are mutually exclusive, you're wrong.
EDH: Dromar, the Banisher
What? Everyone else might be laughing but it's just rude to the karoo guy. Not to mention you'll be cursing yourself when Cradle/Ruins/Coffers/Stronghold/Maze lands the next turn, and you put yourself a land back to put one other guy two back and do nothing to the rest of the table.
Jeff, one of my favorite strategies in LD against Karoo's is land count. If you're in green and making even an extra land drop or two over the people setting their land count back continuously with Karoo effects, dropping Thoughts of Ruin could be an Armageddon to them while only setting you back a few lands.
Turn three...I think Maze is the only issue there, right? It's EDH. Why are you sweating anything? It's not a bad play when it enhances the fun of the group. You just put a target on your head from the other guy. You guys should chill out and try to enjoy the game.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
So stripping someone's land for no reason enhances the fun of the group, and extremely powerful utility lands aren't problematic unless they come out later in the game. Are you playing Bizarro EDH or something?
---
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Well if the game is continuing for 12-20 more turns, then any tempo you gain from killing a karoo will be regained and they'll eventually cast their powerful spells. Especially if your decks average card quality is lower (from playing a large amount of single target non-land LD with no other effects)
If I was at the table, it'd enhance the hell out of my fun because 1 opponent set himself back a turn to set another opponent back 2 turns. If it's a 3 player game, I've probably just won.
But it seems sort of silly to base your opinion of the power of a card on what might happen if another player is throwing the game for a "fun move". Which I don't understand either, because relatively small and badly planned tempo plays are the opposite of fun or interesting for me. "Fun plays" in EDH require doing combat math with numbers larger than 100, imo.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
In a long game, the tempo may work and it may not work. There are also other ways to punish people for doing things, like Price of Progress that adds damage relative to the amount of nonbasics in the game and can add up fairly quickly sometimes for 5+damage for 2 mana.
Karoos and Lairs are fine for cheap mana bases, it's the other people who have the power cards that you need to worry about.
The only time I can see blowing up a karoo is to stop someone from casting their general or a similar power card while they're getting mana screwed. But for that there's several other things in red that can chomp down on nonbasics like Trench Wurm. I love that card, was so nifty during Invasion block and today just eats greedy mana bases for lunch. Or as I like to call him, "Stone Rain with buyback."
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
The person using the strip mine on a karoo.
If I'm player 3 and the strip mine player basically just handed me a time warp and a half, then I'd say that player just threw the game, yeah.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6