After thoroughly reading and digesting this thread, all I can offer is the narrow-but-slick Orcish Mine tech. Remember, always use the Judge promo version; it has a higher implied virtual card advantage quotient.
Bouncelands on their own aren't bad...in moderation. It's the people that shove eight bouncelands to colour fix their janky 5c deck that have problems. I've played a single bounce in a lot of my decks, especially recently, and hey, if you wanna kill that instead of my Academy Ruins that O-Stone locks you, then be my guest.
As long as you don't play them early with nothing to use them in conjunction with, they're okay (my Boilerworks has done well in Melek since I lack a Reef and Bluffs, even though I have Volcanic, Steam, and my fetchlands :P).
Read Balduvian Trading Post and the rest of the Alliance cycle more closely -- it makes you sacrifice an untapped basic, not bounce it. That's significantly worse than the Karoo cycle, because you don't get the same sort of pseudo-card-advantage you do off a Karoo.
This is wrong because the land comes into play untapped (facilitating a turn 2 play) and has an additional ability to play around with.
Bouncelands on their own aren't bad...in moderation. It's the people that shove eight bouncelands to colour fix their janky 5c deck that have problems. I've played a single bounce in a lot of my decks, especially recently, and hey, if you wanna kill that instead of my Academy Ruins that O-Stone locks you, then be my guest.
As long as you don't play them early with nothing to use them in conjunction with, they're okay (my Boilerworks has done well in Melek since I lack a Reef and Bluffs, even though I have Volcanic, Steam, and my fetchlands :P).
Indeed.
Hey partner, I'll trade you my foil 7th Reef and Bluffs for your Volcanic.
I really like the bouncelands if there is reanimation in the deck. If you got to draw it can force a discard, resulting in a turn 3 Iona..or something as equally scary.
This thread has just about convinced me to take Orzhov Basilica out of my Vish Kal deck, but here are the reasons I originally put it in:
1. BW is a color mana greedy combination, and although I'm running all the $10 and less duals and appropriate mana rocks, I still like that little extra bit of color fixing so I can run deeper on colorless utility lands.
2. It adds a little bit of synergy with Bojuka Bog
3. In 4 or more player games there will almost always be a better target. Gaea's Cradle, Cabal Coffers, Volrath's Stronghold, whatever. Blowing up a non-utility land could even be used for political pressure. I think I run enough cheap artifacts that even someone playing Sylvan Primordial early can target something that advances or protects his/her board state rather than just setting me back a land.
If you don't have anything to cast with an extra mana you'd get from another land drop, and you cast a spell off the land you're bouncing, you don't even lose anything from playing a Karoo. Reports of their badness are greatly overblown.
This. It's really fun playing Treachery when you have some Karoo's online. I generally use them to reset Vesuva or Bog or return Cycle lands to my hand when I don't need them anymore.
And yeah generally I avoid Strip Mining your Dimir Aqueduct when I know there is a Cabal Coffers somewhere in the deck.
Are we really on page 3 of this thread without someone pointing out <what a colossal d-bag the OP is>? Really?
Your friends are playing lands that have the potential to be bad if bounced/destroyed... and your reaction is "I should build an entire deck to punish this"?
In my view, games should be played for fun, whether you're doing it competitively or not. Land destruction/bounce should be used for utility lands like Volrath's Stronghold or Kessig Wolf Run. Destroying someone's karoo? Really? Don't be that guy.
And making a land destruction deck in EDH is the ultimate "that guy" move.
I'm not a huge fan of the Visions Karoos, but the Ravnica bounces definitely have homes in decks that want to reuse etb lands or powerhouse lands like Cradle/Coffers, or decks that like untapping lands. I have a Maelstrom Wanderer list with synergies in Turnabout, Garruk Wildspeaker, mass land-destruction like Jokulhaups (making sure you have lands in your hand to hit drops post-haups), and Winter Orb. Not to mention, I'm pretty hugely ok with you Strip Mining my bounceland if it means my Academy Ruins next turn go unscathed.
Are we really on page 3 of this thread without someone pointing out what a colossal d-bag the OP is? Really?
Your friends are playing lands that have the potential to be bad if bounced/destroyed... and your reaction is "I should build an entire deck to punish this"?
In my view, games should be played for fun, whether you're doing it competitively or not. Land destruction/bounce should be used for utility lands like Volrath's Stronghold or Kessig Wolf Run. Destroying someone's karoo? Really? Don't be that guy.
And making a land destruction deck in EDH is the ultimate "that guy" move.
REALLY glad I'm not in OPs playgroup.
Relax on releasing your frustrations, some playgroups are different.
Now that I think of it, I'd rather be in the OP's playgroup than, let's say yours because you frown upon it. I see a guy trying to
1) let his playgroup evolve by showing them how bad karoos are in their decks
2) react to the metagame.
Due to the lack of info I can't say much more, but his group seems like a fine group to me.
Edit: If you find that building a land destruction deck, which is one of many strategies that this game provides, means you become "that guy" I would advize you to look into Yu-gi-oh or any other card game that is more lineair based.
To defend myself: My playgroup is better than most playgroups. We have a wide variety of player, decks, and playstyles. We've only complained to one player about his decks because he uses banned cards. Anything goes, it's just that some avenues haven't been explored yet. If they don't like LD, they'll just make decks with more answers.
Frequently, we'll play a deck we just thought up to be annoying or devastating...or whatever. When we accomplish our goal, that's all. We'll just play another deck, at that point. We all have more than one deck and if something is not getting there, we can just play something else. Please don't worry about my playgroup. They're all adults and they'll be fine without someone to kiss their boo-boos.
Now, about those boo-boos! I don't care about what you feel about karoos. I really only want to know if anyone has successfully executed a land destruction strategy and what did they do to get there.
The appropriate spells are in the Naya shard, or just RG if you forgo MLD. Mono-green LD is a thing in 1v1, and you can simply extrapolate that into a higher-slung deck.
Thermokarst, Winter's Grasp, Plow Under, Mwonvuli Acid-Moss, etc. Usually accompanied by a hexproof voltron general.
Its a very easy strategy to screw people with, and you'll get bored of winning/not playing EDH pretty quickly. Been there, done that.
To defend myself: My playgroup is better than most playgroups. We have a wide variety of player, decks, and playstyles. We've only complained to one player about his decks because he uses banned cards. Anything goes, it's just that some avenues haven't been explored yet. If they don't like LD, they'll just make decks with more answers.
Frequently, we'll play a deck we just thought up to be annoying or devastating...or whatever. When we accomplish our goal, that's all. We'll just play another deck, at that point. We all have more than one deck and if something is not getting there, we can just play something else. Please don't worry about my playgroup. They're all adults and they'll be fine without someone to kiss their boo-boos.
Now, about those boo-boos! I don't care about what you feel about karoos. I really only want to know if anyone has successfully executed a land destruction strategy and what did they do to get there.
Best one's I've seen are Kaalia (Linked in my Sig) and also a Jhoira, "blow up the world" deck abusing Eldrazi with stuff like Obliterate or Decree of Annihilation.
Targeted LD generally seems terrible to me unless it's versatile like Decimate or Vindicate or Acidic Slime or using a land slot like Strip Mine and variants.
Thermokarst in EDH? Seems pretty terrible in multiplayer.
I'd agree Naya is where it's going to be. Red offers a lot of targeted destruction as well as MLD, green offers a lot of targeted destruction, and white offers a lot of MLD.
Targetted LD is pretty underwhelming in multiplayer because there's so much more lands. Yes, spells that offer additional versatility are the best targetted LD. Also, stuff that allows you to destroy target land repeatedly is powerful, even in multiplayer. Lots of red things like this. For instance, Dwarven Miner.
The irony is that mass land destruction actually makes you want to play karoos. Because karoolands put an extra land in your hand when you make your land drop, so you gain card advantage.
Karoos are actually a source of card advantage, with the risk of losing that card advantage and causing a tempo loss in the process (karoos will never cause actual card disadvantage). Therefore, karoolands are hurt the most by players who play targeted land destruction early in the game.
I would suggest playing mono green ramp. I can't tell you the number of karoolands I've made people take out of their decks. A T5 Sylvan Primordial causing you to lose a land is bad for you, but a T5 Primordial causing you to miss double land-drops will literally wipe you out of the game.
Additionally, Dust Bowl just wrecks any kind of nonbasics your opponent is playing, and Strip Mine does a pretty good job too.
And btw, I never feel bad about targeting karoo lands. If karoolands had hexproof, they'd be potentially some of the best lands in the game (as they net you free card advantage). Karoolands have a crippling weakness, and I never feel bad about exploiting it.
Funny I like using Karoos when performing Pox, Death Cloud, and Keldon Firebombers so I can be ahead with mana count. Mana rocks basically tilt the balance even more.
Hall's good outside of Voltron. Anywhere where tapping your commander is important, except "Tap an untapped x:" type stuff.
I only have 1 Halls and it's always jumping between decks. I had it in a Sun Quan deck for a while, and then Greven (both were Voltron-ish) and now I'm thinking about it for Vorel of the Hull Clade.
I am a big fan of the bouncelands, they aren't really bad- there is usually something better to destroy, lets you reuse ETB lands, and lets you run less lands.
As long as you don't play them early with nothing to use them in conjunction with, they're okay (my Boilerworks has done well in Melek since I lack a Reef and Bluffs, even though I have Volcanic, Steam, and my fetchlands :P).
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
This is wrong because the land comes into play untapped (facilitating a turn 2 play) and has an additional ability to play around with.
Oh, I meant disregarding the extra ability, it's a worse effect. It's not a Karoo, because it's not advantageous for the same reasons as a Karoo.
Indeed.
Hey partner, I'll trade you my foil 7th Reef and Bluffs for your Volcanic.
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1. BW is a color mana greedy combination, and although I'm running all the $10 and less duals and appropriate mana rocks, I still like that little extra bit of color fixing so I can run deeper on colorless utility lands.
2. It adds a little bit of synergy with Bojuka Bog
3. In 4 or more player games there will almost always be a better target. Gaea's Cradle, Cabal Coffers, Volrath's Stronghold, whatever. Blowing up a non-utility land could even be used for political pressure. I think I run enough cheap artifacts that even someone playing Sylvan Primordial early can target something that advances or protects his/her board state rather than just setting me back a land.
A) You're playing 1v1
B) Your playgroup has at least one uber-douche who makes bad plays because it hoses one person
There are almost always better targets than a karoo, especially if you're using Acidic Slime style effects that can hit artifacts and enchantments.
Don't be that guy.
---
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
WUB Sharuum, the Hegemon
UGEdric, Spymaster of Trest
GRW Mayael the Anima WRG
This. It's really fun playing Treachery when you have some Karoo's online. I generally use them to reset Vesuva or Bog or return Cycle lands to my hand when I don't need them anymore.
And yeah generally I avoid Strip Mining your Dimir Aqueduct when I know there is a Cabal Coffers somewhere in the deck.
Rafiq of the Many UWG
Sedris, the Traitor King URB
Kaalia of the Vast RWB
Savra, Queen of Golgari GB
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice GW
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails EquipmentW
Your friends are playing lands that have the potential to be bad if bounced/destroyed... and your reaction is "I should build an entire deck to punish this"?
In my view, games should be played for fun, whether you're doing it competitively or not. Land destruction/bounce should be used for utility lands like Volrath's Stronghold or Kessig Wolf Run. Destroying someone's karoo? Really? Don't be that guy.
And making a land destruction deck in EDH is the ultimate "that guy" move.
REALLY glad I'm not in OPs playgroup.
Warning for flaming. - cryogen
Relax on releasing your frustrations, some playgroups are different.
Now that I think of it, I'd rather be in the OP's playgroup than, let's say yours because you frown upon it. I see a guy trying to
1) let his playgroup evolve by showing them how bad karoos are in their decks
2) react to the metagame.
Due to the lack of info I can't say much more, but his group seems like a fine group to me.
Edit: If you find that building a land destruction deck, which is one of many strategies that this game provides, means you become "that guy" I would advize you to look into Yu-gi-oh or any other card game that is more lineair based.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
To defend myself: My playgroup is better than most playgroups. We have a wide variety of player, decks, and playstyles. We've only complained to one player about his decks because he uses banned cards. Anything goes, it's just that some avenues haven't been explored yet. If they don't like LD, they'll just make decks with more answers.
Frequently, we'll play a deck we just thought up to be annoying or devastating...or whatever. When we accomplish our goal, that's all. We'll just play another deck, at that point. We all have more than one deck and if something is not getting there, we can just play something else. Please don't worry about my playgroup. They're all adults and they'll be fine without someone to kiss their boo-boos.
Now, about those boo-boos! I don't care about what you feel about karoos. I really only want to know if anyone has successfully executed a land destruction strategy and what did they do to get there.
The appropriate spells are in the Naya shard, or just RG if you forgo MLD. Mono-green LD is a thing in 1v1, and you can simply extrapolate that into a higher-slung deck.
Thermokarst, Winter's Grasp, Plow Under, Mwonvuli Acid-Moss, etc. Usually accompanied by a hexproof voltron general.
Its a very easy strategy to screw people with, and you'll get bored of winning/not playing EDH pretty quickly. Been there, done that.
---
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
WUB Sharuum, the Hegemon
UGEdric, Spymaster of Trest
Best one's I've seen are Kaalia (Linked in my Sig) and also a Jhoira, "blow up the world" deck abusing Eldrazi with stuff like Obliterate or Decree of Annihilation.
Targeted LD generally seems terrible to me unless it's versatile like Decimate or Vindicate or Acidic Slime or using a land slot like Strip Mine and variants.
Thermokarst in EDH? Seems pretty terrible in multiplayer.
Rafiq of the Many UWG
Sedris, the Traitor King URB
Kaalia of the Vast RWB
Savra, Queen of Golgari GB
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice GW
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails EquipmentW
Targetted LD is pretty underwhelming in multiplayer because there's so much more lands. Yes, spells that offer additional versatility are the best targetted LD. Also, stuff that allows you to destroy target land repeatedly is powerful, even in multiplayer. Lots of red things like this. For instance, Dwarven Miner.
Karoos are actually a source of card advantage, with the risk of losing that card advantage and causing a tempo loss in the process (karoos will never cause actual card disadvantage). Therefore, karoolands are hurt the most by players who play targeted land destruction early in the game.
I would suggest playing mono green ramp. I can't tell you the number of karoolands I've made people take out of their decks. A T5 Sylvan Primordial causing you to lose a land is bad for you, but a T5 Primordial causing you to miss double land-drops will literally wipe you out of the game.
I would suggest Acidic Slime, Mwonvuli Acid-Moss, Sylvan Primordial, Terastodon, Primal Command, Karn Liberated, and Beast Within. And that's just in mono-green.
Additionally, Dust Bowl just wrecks any kind of nonbasics your opponent is playing, and Strip Mine does a pretty good job too.
And btw, I never feel bad about targeting karoo lands. If karoolands had hexproof, they'd be potentially some of the best lands in the game (as they net you free card advantage). Karoolands have a crippling weakness, and I never feel bad about exploiting it.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
I will always target a karoo early, especially the Rav ones, ESPECIALLY if someone has three or more colors in their deck.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Fine, but on your cool list of sigs I see only mono-color decks. It's easy to not have CITP lands when you're mono.
None of my other lists have the M10/INN and tribal duals stripped out...which I have done in real life.
Going through some of my other lists, I found some other CIPT lands I have considered.
Mistveil Plains
Cycling lands
Hideaway lands
Dakmor Savage (only with Trade Routes)
Emeria, the Sky Ruin and Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle (totally forgot they CIPT)
Hall of the Bandit Lord (should I ever run Voltron)
Thawing Glaciers (forgot that one, too)
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
I only have 1 Halls and it's always jumping between decks. I had it in a Sun Quan deck for a while, and then Greven (both were Voltron-ish) and now I'm thinking about it for Vorel of the Hull Clade.
Hasted counter-doubling seems good.
So Pro I have an alpha Volcanic Island