If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
Yes, he's a local legend. He's only known to take his clothes off before he goes into the Ladies' Lockerroom. Nobody knows what he does in there because he's invisible, but it's almost certainly tons of masturbating.
Just Sylvan Primordial. The thing about every other Primordial is that they're situational / easier to have hate for / more interesting. And of course, the white one pretty much sucks.
Sometimes I wonder if the hatred for Sylvan Primordial really stems from how bad people think he is, or a knee-jerk reaction to the fact that PrimeTime was banned and the fact that it fills a similar (but very different) role.
Sylvan Primordial can be a powerful creature, but there are certainly more powerful creatures in the game, and it rarely ever wins you the game. It helps you win, but it almost never wins it for you, and certainly never by itself.
Sometimes I wonder if the hatred for Sylvan Primordial really stems from how bad people think he is, or a knee-jerk reaction to the fact that PrimeTime was banned and the fact that it fills a similar (but very different) role.
Sylvan Primordial can be a powerful creature, but there are certainly more powerful creatures in the game, and it rarely ever wins you the game. It helps you win, but it almost never wins it for you, and certainly never by itself.
Most people take issue with GP when he gets played turn 3 (via ramp, reanimator, or otherwise cheated out), which provides the guy who played it a massive advantage (since you set everyone back a turn and ramp up by X turns, where X is the number of Forests you can fetch).
Admittedly, dropping GP any time after turn 5 devalues his ability significantly. Once you hit turn 7, he's little better than your average sweeper (and probably a great deal worse than some, seeing as he only hits one card per opponent).
As a cycle, it's a little annoying that the Green one feels quite pushed and that the white one kinda sucks. The others are fine in this regard, and overall it's a fine cycle. Kind of stupid in that they seemed to be printed specifically for us, but w/e. Just tryin' to roll with it.
The Primordials are not bad for EDH at all. The only one that is slightly bothersome is Sylvan Primordial because they like, threw Primeval Titan into a blender with Sundering Titan and then watered down the ever-loving heck out of it so it wouldn't be so horribly powerful as to deserve a ban, but to still be very obnoxious.
However, there are still much worse things than Sylvan Primordial that aren't banned it's just that Sylvan Primordial gets more use being a relatively newer good EDH card.
We play big games (6-10 peeps on avg.)
When abused (Natural Order,etc) a few times in a row, Sylvan can end a game before anyone else really has a chance to get going.
While the design and application of the Primordial cycle may (or may not) have gone the way WOTC intended, the idea of hitting each oppononent, causing interaction between all players, is what is most important for this format in particular. With a little bit of tweaking in the future, perhaps newer cards with such a high level of interaction that are more fair but still feared will appear to give us more fresh and exciting games that everyone can enjoy.
While the above does sound nice I believe that the Primordial cycle was a step in the right direction toward multiplayer (more than 2 players in this case) card design.
If the printing of the Primordial Cycle has increased the amount of people who play Torpor Orb, then this cycle is one of the best things to have happened to EDH.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
A sylvan primordial before turn 4 or 5 can be back breaking... but that's just like the folks (me) who play turn 2 or 3 Iona...
Some things are just powerful.
He's not breaking the format.
From my point of view if people I play don't like it or it gets banned I'll just keep blinking my acidic slime instead
To start off, does anyone agree the creation of primordials is bad for Commander format?
While the Primordials themselves are fine, I feel they are mistakes. They set a slippery precedent for future cards to come. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for good multiplayer cards; I just wish they had a different template. I'd much prefer to see the Primordial cycle printed as "When ~this~ enters the battlefield, if it was cast from your hand, [effect]."
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If the printing of the Primordial Cycle has increased the amount of people who play Torpor Orb, then this cycle is one of the best things to have happened to EDH.
No. Quite frankly I think they are fun, balanced (for the most part) and useful.
The black one is iffy.
Heh, I always felt the black one was more powerful and could easily win a game, similar to the red one but better because of etbs. Its just that normally I player in smaller games (3-4) so I don't run him since I wouldn't be getting that amazing of a board.
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"To start off, does anyone agree the creation of primordials is bad for Commander format?"
Yes, I agree. Although it is a small bad, not a huge problem or anything. In general I think that the Primordials are just too "easy button", presenting very powerful ubiquitous and/or game-winning effects on reasonable bodies that are extremely easy to reuse. I think cards that are this versatile, swingy, and easy to abuse are generally bad for the game as they can single-handidly undo/do so much work, which removes a lot of skill from the equation. They kind of remind me of Insurrection in that regard. Not necessarily OP in a broken sense, but just kind of dumb "easy button" cards that there is little reason not to run.
so wizards prints cards obviously designed for commander and people think they are OP? i just dont understand.... sylvan is the only one that can be abused in an super effective way, but on the scale of abusive creatures its pretty tame when compared to something like palinchron who only exists in a deck to do degenerate things.
As with most cards in Magic, a lot has to depend on how they're used. I see them played for big splashy effects, not abused, so I think they're fun generally. Sure, they have their bad uses, and I still can't understand why Wizards chose to specifically give the green one a mandatory effect, but meh.
If the printing of the Primordial Cycle has increased the amount of people who play Torpor Orb, then this cycle is one of the best things to have happened to EDH.
As for the OP, if you're tutoring and you don't know what you want, you're doing it wrong. If you're reanimating and you don't know what you want, you're really doing it wrong.
My group has a rule of 10 riffles being a "shuffle". It's a somewhat high estimate for 99 cards, but it works for us. But then, we don't tutor for no reason.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
"To start off, does anyone agree the creation of primordials is bad for Commander format?"
Yes, I agree. Although it is a small bad, not a huge problem or anything. In general I think that the Primordials are just too "easy button", presenting very powerful ubiquitous and/or game-winning effects on reasonable bodies that are extremely easy to reuse. I think cards that are this versatile, swingy, and easy to abuse are generally bad for the game as they can single-handidly undo/do so much work, which removes a lot of skill from the equation. They kind of remind me of Insurrection in that regard. Not necessarily OP in a broken sense, but just kind of dumb "easy button" cards that there is little reason not to run.
It does create the problem that the format becomes - Primordials: The Gathering.
Just like for Insurrection, once someone can cast it, it is almost only down to counterspells or homeward path to stop it. It makes all the earlier interactions and play meaningless or pointless. Basically just wait for enough mana to cast Insurrection, that's it, someone is gone.
If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
Yes, he's a local legend. He's only known to take his clothes off before he goes into the Ladies' Lockerroom. Nobody knows what he does in there because he's invisible, but it's almost certainly tons of masturbating.
The moment you start running color specific hosers is the moment I start running my own.
Acid Rain is dirty... but man Teferi's Response is awesome!
I don't consider Sylvan Primordial broken, just really really really good. It's like the lovechild of Primeval Titan and Terastodon.
I've actually found the black one to have the biggest 'I win' factor, but it is very situational.
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Why don't we consolidate all discussions on primordials in this thread?
To start off, does anyone agree the creation of primordials is bad for Commander format?
Sylvan Primordial is not bad.
None of them are ban-worthy.
Sometimes I wonder if the hatred for Sylvan Primordial really stems from how bad people think he is, or a knee-jerk reaction to the fact that PrimeTime was banned and the fact that it fills a similar (but very different) role.
Sylvan Primordial can be a powerful creature, but there are certainly more powerful creatures in the game, and it rarely ever wins you the game. It helps you win, but it almost never wins it for you, and certainly never by itself.
Most people take issue with GP when he gets played turn 3 (via ramp, reanimator, or otherwise cheated out), which provides the guy who played it a massive advantage (since you set everyone back a turn and ramp up by X turns, where X is the number of Forests you can fetch).
Admittedly, dropping GP any time after turn 5 devalues his ability significantly. Once you hit turn 7, he's little better than your average sweeper (and probably a great deal worse than some, seeing as he only hits one card per opponent).
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However, there are still much worse things than Sylvan Primordial that aren't banned it's just that Sylvan Primordial gets more use being a relatively newer good EDH card.
When abused (Natural Order,etc) a few times in a row, Sylvan can end a game before anyone else really has a chance to get going.
While the above does sound nice I believe that the Primordial cycle was a step in the right direction toward multiplayer (more than 2 players in this case) card design.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Some things are just powerful.
He's not breaking the format.
From my point of view if people I play don't like it or it gets banned I'll just keep blinking my acidic slime instead
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While the Primordials themselves are fine, I feel they are mistakes. They set a slippery precedent for future cards to come. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for good multiplayer cards; I just wish they had a different template. I'd much prefer to see the Primordial cycle printed as "When ~this~ enters the battlefield, if it was cast from your hand, [effect]."
On Mythic Rares: "What's next, Wizards will print six golden Black Lotuses and randomly place them in boosters, and if someone gets one, they get to tour the Wizards facility?"
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No. Quite frankly I think they are fun, balanced (for the most part) and useful.
The black one is iffy.
Heh, I always felt the black one was more powerful and could easily win a game, similar to the red one but better because of etbs. Its just that normally I player in smaller games (3-4) so I don't run him since I wouldn't be getting that amazing of a board.
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The new 9CMC black card from M14 is going to be much scarier that the black primordial...
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Yes, I agree. Although it is a small bad, not a huge problem or anything. In general I think that the Primordials are just too "easy button", presenting very powerful ubiquitous and/or game-winning effects on reasonable bodies that are extremely easy to reuse. I think cards that are this versatile, swingy, and easy to abuse are generally bad for the game as they can single-handidly undo/do so much work, which removes a lot of skill from the equation. They kind of remind me of Insurrection in that regard. Not necessarily OP in a broken sense, but just kind of dumb "easy button" cards that there is little reason not to run.
1 word: Clones.
EDIT: Assuming you hit a single clone in a 4 player game, your getting 7 for 1. Seems good. Hitting two clones usually just wins the game.
EDIT2:
I've definitely seen close to this with Clones, 4 player game though.
I would like this multiple times if I could.
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Or just Deadeye Navigator...But TBH, a Deadeye with Ravenous Rats is arguably broken by this same logic.
As for the OP, if you're tutoring and you don't know what you want, you're doing it wrong. If you're reanimating and you don't know what you want, you're really doing it wrong.
My group has a rule of 10 riffles being a "shuffle". It's a somewhat high estimate for 99 cards, but it works for us. But then, we don't tutor for no reason.
On phasing:
It does create the problem that the format becomes - Primordials: The Gathering.
Just like for Insurrection, once someone can cast it, it is almost only down to counterspells or homeward path to stop it. It makes all the earlier interactions and play meaningless or pointless. Basically just wait for enough mana to cast Insurrection, that's it, someone is gone.
Acid Rain is dirty... but man Teferi's Response is awesome!
I don't consider Sylvan Primordial broken, just really really really good. It's like the lovechild of Primeval Titan and Terastodon.
I've actually found the black one to have the biggest 'I win' factor, but it is very situational.
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