I honestly don't see what's so hard to deal with in hexproof. Hasn't Lightning Greaves been a staple of the format since Day 0? What have people been doing when someone opens a game with Sol Ring into Greaves, flipping over the table then going off to cry in the corner?
I'll address your random panic first then I'll explain wizard's logic to soothe you.
My super abusive and horrible meta has been using the new rules since they were announced. In all honesty, it makes the games a more swingy interactive "holy **** that was awesome" game then before. And we all hit the lab and tuned our decks to deal with it.
Now the sexy part. This isn't my theory, but wizards has stated they want tight mana fixing in the game from now on. This new legend rule allows them to print this:
Legendary forest-island
Tap: add G or U to you mana pool.
That's really nice isn't it? And it's no secret they've wanted to slide past the reprint policy and do something like this. And the next block is a legendary one. I would not be a bit surprised if we saw this this fall.
And it also gives them a perfectly good opportunity to re print the allied fetches in the following block with out breaking standard in half.
I honestly don't see what's so hard to deal with in hexproof. Hasn't Lightning Greaves been a staple of the format since Day 0? What have people been doing when someone opens a game with Sol Ring into Greaves, flipping over the table then going off to cry in the corner?
Yes, yes they have. Haven't you read all the OMG T1 Sol Ring is broken! Banz it! threads?
For one, is the cussing really neccesary to make your point? Frankly, I don't think so.
People are making a fuss out of this without thinking. There's a HUGE list of possible answers, and hell, a lot of those should be ran in decks in the first place. You claim the game will be "HEXPROOF LEGENDS EVERYWHERE", but that is simply not the case. Yes, there will be a bit more Voltron centered around them, but keep in mind that they all tend to need quite a lot of mana to suit up. A simple Vandalblast will make artifact-suited-up generals cry, while Cyclonic Rift says lolnope to Aura-based ones. Austere Command does that to BOTH at the same time. Just three examples from the top of my head. There's literally tons of options which will keep them in check. If you cannot think past "OMG HEXPROOF IS GONNA STOMP ME", then I say good riddance to your leaving, you probably weren't an enjoyable player to begin with.
Oh please, this doesn't influence my ability to deal with threats. It's purely flavor for me. Legendary creatures were cool because only one could be in the game at any point in time. Now there really is no difference between a legendary and a non legendary. The only thing that really separates a non legendary from a legendary is that legendary can be used in the command zone and non legendary creatures cannot. That's **** flavor. Seeing 4 urils in one game is no fun or interesting. Watching everyone clone avacyn is not interesting. Does it open up cool interactions? Sure. But you can have the coolest looking poop sculpture on earth... but it's still ****.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
Oh please, this doesn't influence my ability to deal with threats. It's purely flavor for me. Legendary creatures were cool because only one could be in the game at any point in time. Now there really is no difference between a legendary and a non legendary. The only thing that really separates a non legendary from a legendary is that legendary can be used in the command zone and non legendary creatures cannot. That's **** flavor. Seeing 4 urils in one game is no fun or interesting. Watching everyone clone avacyn is not interesting. Does it open up cool interactions? Sure. But you can have the coolest looking poop sculpture on earth... but it's still ****.
Well you should be happy to know that the Legend rule change is perfect when considered through a Vorthos lens.
I honestly don't see what's so hard to deal with in hexproof. Hasn't Lightning Greaves been a staple of the format since Day 0? What have people been doing when someone opens a game with Sol Ring into Greaves, flipping over the table then going off to cry in the corner?
Oh please, this doesn't influence my ability to deal with threats. It's purely flavor for me. Legendary creatures were cool because only one could be in the game at any point in time. Now there really is no difference between a legendary and a non legendary. The only thing that really separates a non legendary from a legendary is that legendary can be used in the command zone and non legendary creatures cannot. That's **** flavor. Seeing 4 urils in one game is no fun or interesting. Watching everyone clone avacyn is not interesting. Does it open up cool interactions? Sure. But you can have the coolest looking poop sculpture on earth... but it's still ****.
I think the opposite in terms of flavor. Have you seen Army of Darkness? When Bruce Campbell's character Ash encounters his Clone, both simply don't die. Ash has to destroy his clone. He is pitted against himself like how an opposing clone would work.
Ah yes, as answered above, ONLY creatures worth Horsemanship can block Zuo Ci. Meaning he is far from unblockable. Still - a ton of respect to someone sitting at the kitchen table with Zuo Ci, the Mocking Sage as their General.
He's not unblockable. He's unblockable by creatures WITH horsemanship, of which there aren't many. Unless of course all of your opponents are playing Sun Quan.
Whoops, I read that wrong. I skimmed the card and thought he had horsemanship. Man, that would've been fun.
Righteous Aura is my favorite card to handle general or infect damage, or even aggro (at least the Commander version) decks. It also turns off lifelink. I have it in almost every white deck I've built.
Nearly every one. What about when your opponent has an army of infinite non-horsemanship defenders? Bet you'll be wishing Zuo Ci was your general then.
Funnily enough, a person in my playgroup is building Sun Quan aggro. I think i might just build Zuo Ci voltron to be a jerk.
Also, to the guy who quit magic.....if you honestly relied that much on clones I don't think you'd do well in most playgroups. I actually like the changes even though I run a clone heavy takestuff.dec. Makes more sense than the previous rules.
I personally like the edict effects and boardwipes for those hexproof pests.
Quitting magic because of a minor flavor change seems a bit drastic. But... have you really quit if you keep coming back to post about it? Call me skeptic, but I don't think you're quitting, I think you're just ranting.
Initially I hated the change. Now that I've let it percolate and have played a few games with it, I think I like the rule better now. To those who think the game play is horrible, I say try it out first; give a few games. It's such a minor impact in the vast majority of scenarios, and the few where it mattered, you actually have MORE good choices for your clones/walkers/legends now than before. (In my opinion.)
For those who just hate the flavor, personally, I always thought it was stupid that a "clone" would legend-rule kill the original. It's a freaking clone! When they clone sheep, it's not like the original sheep saw his clone and they both vanish into nothingness! (Ok, that's an odd example I suppose, but whatever...)
You still can't have two Avacyn's on your own battlefield, which makes sense. If your opponent has your legendary, then it becomes like an Army of Darkness scenario mentioned above, which while a bit strange, was also kind of epic.
Let your imagination free and enjoy it... that's what I say. Don't try to make the game fit perfectly into a box. It is, after all, still a game.
Reflect Damage gets around hexproof and if they've swung at you with a fully suited voltron general you can take them out with their own commander's damage.
And you get to say "You Did This To Yourself." (tm)
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I honestly don't see what's so hard to deal with in hexproof. Hasn't Lightning Greaves been a staple of the format since Day 0? What have people been doing when someone opens a game with Sol Ring into Greaves, flipping over the table then going off to cry in the corner?
In response to equip, kill or bounce your creature? Destroy the equipment?
Reflect Damage gets around hexproof and if they've swung at you with a fully suited voltron general you can take them out with their own commander's damage.
I rarely see even a voltron general who can one shot players. It usually takes two hits, and then Reflect Damage is just a burn spell.
Not to mention, if it did work, you know how much people rage about a spell that destroys their lands? And you want to get away with a spell that destroys players? People are going to complain it into non existence.
In response to equip, kill or bounce your creature? Destroy the equipment?
Innate hexproof is way harder to get around.I rarely see even a voltron general who can one shot players. It usually takes two hits, and then Reflect Damage is just a burn spell.
Not to mention, if it did work, you know how much people rage about a spell that destroys their lands? And you want to get away with a spell that destroys players? People are going to complain it into non existence.
Tainted Strike is a spell that destroys players. It doesn't get complained about as much as LD.
Most of them are going to have First strike or some form of evasion so Deathtouch is kinda worthless.
False: Only Sigarda has evasion by default. (Why does everyone keep thinking Traft has flying or is unblockable?) The rest have to get evasion (or alternately, trample) from other effects, which can usually but not always be removed.
But even if they don't, Trailblazer's Boots is always an option, and really should be included in a Voltron deck. Traft and Lazav also have access to Traveler's Cloak, which can quickly end the game.
And how is Story Circle not on that list? It essentially stops any Voltron deck (except colorless generals) cold.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
In response to equip, kill or bounce your creature? Destroy the equipment?
Innate hexproof is way harder to get around.I rarely see even a voltron general who can one shot players. It usually takes two hits, and then Reflect Damage is just a burn spell.
Not to mention, if it did work, you know how much people rage about a spell that destroys their lands? And you want to get away with a spell that destroys players? People are going to complain it into non existence.
Play it in Gisela, Blade of Goldnight. Gisela Forces them to voltron-up even more and also doubles the damage their own legend deals.
What I meant is, the voltron player isn't going to bother with attacking before getting their general suited up with evasion so that they can guarantee the to connect.
Yeah, but the cards granting evasion aren't going to have shroud, hexproof, or indestructible. Back to Nature can be particularly lulzy, but also consider Creeping Corrosion or Shatterstorm. Playing blue? Counters stop Distortion Strike and friends.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
That doesn't work. Reflect Damage sets up a replacement effect, the original source of the damage is still whatever was dealing the damage in the first place. That's why someone can get knocked out with their own general's general damage.
Erebos B | Ghost Council WB | Grimgrin UB | Jhoira UR
Jor Kadeen RW | Melek UR | Mimeoplasm GUB | Rasputin WU
Savra BG | Sisay GW | Teneb BGW | Thada Adel U | Wort BR
I draft and play EDH. If a Standard player can't understand who a card is for, it's probably for me.
I also write things about good films.
I think we're all waiting for this scenario.
Yes, yes they have. Haven't you read all the OMG T1 Sol Ring is broken! Banz it! threads?
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Oh please, this doesn't influence my ability to deal with threats. It's purely flavor for me. Legendary creatures were cool because only one could be in the game at any point in time. Now there really is no difference between a legendary and a non legendary. The only thing that really separates a non legendary from a legendary is that legendary can be used in the command zone and non legendary creatures cannot. That's **** flavor. Seeing 4 urils in one game is no fun or interesting. Watching everyone clone avacyn is not interesting. Does it open up cool interactions? Sure. But you can have the coolest looking poop sculpture on earth... but it's still ****.
Well you should be happy to know that the Legend rule change is perfect when considered through a Vorthos lens.
Smart players would pack Abolish.
I think the opposite in terms of flavor. Have you seen Army of Darkness? When Bruce Campbell's character Ash encounters his Clone, both simply don't die. Ash has to destroy his clone. He is pitted against himself like how an opposing clone would work.
My Blog - contains my decklists
Uril, The Miststalker
Frankie Peanuts - needs to move to multiplayer.
Oh Rider, my heart will go on...
Prahv, Spires of Order will get the job done too.
Whoops, I read that wrong. I skimmed the card and thought he had horsemanship. Man, that would've been fun.
Funnily enough, a person in my playgroup is building Sun Quan aggro. I think i might just build Zuo Ci voltron to be a jerk.
Also, to the guy who quit magic.....if you honestly relied that much on clones I don't think you'd do well in most playgroups. I actually like the changes even though I run a clone heavy takestuff.dec. Makes more sense than the previous rules.
I personally like the edict effects and boardwipes for those hexproof pests.
EDIT: I can typing...
Initially I hated the change. Now that I've let it percolate and have played a few games with it, I think I like the rule better now. To those who think the game play is horrible, I say try it out first; give a few games. It's such a minor impact in the vast majority of scenarios, and the few where it mattered, you actually have MORE good choices for your clones/walkers/legends now than before. (In my opinion.)
For those who just hate the flavor, personally, I always thought it was stupid that a "clone" would legend-rule kill the original. It's a freaking clone! When they clone sheep, it's not like the original sheep saw his clone and they both vanish into nothingness! (Ok, that's an odd example I suppose, but whatever...)
You still can't have two Avacyn's on your own battlefield, which makes sense. If your opponent has your legendary, then it becomes like an Army of Darkness scenario mentioned above, which while a bit strange, was also kind of epic.
Let your imagination free and enjoy it... that's what I say. Don't try to make the game fit perfectly into a box. It is, after all, still a game.
And you get to say "You Did This To Yourself." (tm)
FTW:D
they're about to kill you with uril, nope, take 200 yourself
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
On phasing:
An-zerrin Ruins.
Shuts down tribal decks or voltron decks (assuming you can survive a single alpha strike).
Innate hexproof is way harder to get around. I rarely see even a voltron general who can one shot players. It usually takes two hits, and then Reflect Damage is just a burn spell.
Not to mention, if it did work, you know how much people rage about a spell that destroys their lands? And you want to get away with a spell that destroys players? People are going to complain it into non existence.
Tainted Strike is a spell that destroys players. It doesn't get complained about as much as LD.
False: Only Sigarda has evasion by default. (Why does everyone keep thinking Traft has flying or is unblockable?) The rest have to get evasion (or alternately, trample) from other effects, which can usually but not always be removed.
But even if they don't, Trailblazer's Boots is always an option, and really should be included in a Voltron deck. Traft and Lazav also have access to Traveler's Cloak, which can quickly end the game.
And how is Story Circle not on that list? It essentially stops any Voltron deck (except colorless generals) cold.
On phasing:
Play it in Gisela, Blade of Goldnight. Gisela Forces them to voltron-up even more and also doubles the damage their own legend deals.
Anyone ever Reflect Damage your Reflect Damage?
Yeah, but the cards granting evasion aren't going to have shroud, hexproof, or indestructible. Back to Nature can be particularly lulzy, but also consider Creeping Corrosion or Shatterstorm. Playing blue? Counters stop Distortion Strike and friends.
On phasing:
That doesn't work. Reflect Damage sets up a replacement effect, the original source of the damage is still whatever was dealing the damage in the first place. That's why someone can get knocked out with their own general's general damage.
The Voltrons in your group need more Strata Scythe. Reflect damage is a nice gotcha for that big swingy player.