MLD is a sledgehammer to stop a problem that can be scalpeled, at least in most casual to medium-casual metagames.
If someone's spending all their cards to ramp, can't you just wrath the board when they play out their hand?
I do, however, recognize that non-MLD answers to ramp become more problematic the more colors the ramp player plays, as well as how increasingly competitive any given deck is.
In a ramp-heavy meta, it can be seen as a meta call, and thus an 'answer'. But I don't really think of it as an answer. I never play it in a deck as an answer. I use it as a threat.
Meh, they don't bother me. You can play around Geddon with mana-rocks/dorks and holding land, and your opponent has to do some work to make something like more complete wipes like Jokulhaups particularly one-sided, which is just part of the game IMO.
MLD is a sledgehammer to stop a problem that can be scalpeled, at least in most casual to medium-casual metagames.
If someone's spending all their cards to ramp, can't you just wrath the board when they play out their hand?
I do, however, recognize that non-MLD answers to ramp become more problematic the more colors the ramp player plays, as well as how increasingly competitive any given deck is.
You're assuming the player who just ramped doesn't have the ability to refuel their hand. Mana opens up that possibility. And you're also assuming that that player is terrible and is over extending.
I've always tried to press the phrase that "MLD doesn't stop ramp strategies; the threat of MLD stops them."
Why doesn't a good player dump his whole hand onto the table? Because he doesn't want to overextend into a wrath effect.
Why shouldn't a good player dump all his ramp spells and lands onto the table? Because he shouldn't want to overextend into a 'geddon effect.
Guess what? If MLD is "frowned upon" or "unfun" or whatever in your playgroup, you cannot overextend with ramp. The threat needs to be there, else the ramp strategy becomes over-represented.
It is very rare for me to agree with you. Well said.
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Weiss Schwarz Sets
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
It is very rare for me to agree with you. Well said.
Dechs is a smart guy!
It all balances out at some point. Big Mana will come in (a decent number of players start with mono-green strategies), people will then go for MLD. Then Big Mana and MLD will be reduced because it will both be hard for BM to play all their lands and the other players on the table will be annoyed being consistently casualties.
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Currently Building:
WUBGR - Enchantment Realms - WUBGR
An all-enchantment EDH deck: 0 creatures, 0 artifacts, 0 instants and sorceries.
Nobody does this. I don't know why this argument keeps coming up again and again but nobody does this. Sometimes the game stalls because they are bad players or it doesn't work out how they wanted, but what you are describing is typical anti-social bull**** behavior - Jokulhaups isn't the issue, typical anti-social bull**** behavior is.
This. LD is never a problem. Bad/socially inept players are.
MLD is a sledgehammer to stop a problem that can be scalpeled, at least in most casual to medium-casual metagames.
If someone's spending all their cards to ramp, can't you just wrath the board when they play out their hand?
I do, however, recognize that non-MLD answers to ramp become more problematic the more colors the ramp player plays, as well as how increasingly competitive any given deck is.
I am with you.... I am still arguing MLD is a bad idea.
You don't mess with the lands you mess with their hand, their library, their graveyard, their board. Having tons of land on the battlefield really doesn't mean a whole lot in most cases they still have to have and to cast the spells.
Lets say I am playing multiplayer.... One person is ramping hard, another person has and then uses MLD... (perhaps the blue player tapped out to counter a threat from the ramp player)... now you just prevented everyone else from playing the game not just the ramp player. You knew it was coming so you prepared and the ramp player is more likely than anyone else in the game to have low cost ways to get more land but what does everyone else do?.
"Sledgehammer for a problem that can be scalped" I like that analogy
I am with you.... I am still arguing MLD is a bad idea.
You don't mess with the lands you mess with their hand, their library, their graveyard, their board. Having tons of land on the battlefield really doesn't mean a whole lot in most cases they still have to have and to cast the spells.
Lets say I am playing multiplayer.... One person is ramping hard, another person has and then uses MLD... (perhaps the blue player tapped out to counter a threat from the ramp player)... now you just prevented everyone else from playing the game not just the ramp player. You knew it was coming so you prepared and the ramp player is more likely than anyone else in the game to have low cost ways to get more land but what does everyone else do?.
"Sledgehammer for a problem that can be scalped" I like that analogy
Like other big bomb cards, MLD is a finisher. This is why I run Land Tax and/or Burgeoning depending on the deck. Land tax for sure in most white decks. Boros charm has saved me a few times too. It is not like you come to the table without artifact, enchantments, and/or creature removal. 1v1 can be all about being proactive. Sometimes in multiplayer, proactiveness will make you a target; there, reactiveness leads to survival to finish the game.
Lets say I am playing multiplayer.... One person is ramping hard, another person has and then uses MLD... (perhaps the blue player tapped out to counter a threat from the ramp player)... now you just prevented everyone else from playing the game not just the ramp player. You knew it was coming so you prepared and the ramp player is more likely than anyone else in the game to have low cost ways to get more land but what does everyone else do?.
No, the ramp player is more likely out of ramp and lands in his deck. It will be many more turns for him to actually draw a land in this situation because he thinned his deck out already.
Unless he's not a bad player like the rest of the table that was overextending.
Are the cards used to destroy lands LEGAL in Commander? (Unless its the few that are banned like worldfire then YES)
Are you casting the spells legally? (I'm assuming yes)
Then Land Destruction, BEING LEGALLY CAST WITH LEGAL CARDS, is ok.
People only complain because they feel entitled for you to do nothing while they do everything. EDH seems to be a game about self-absorbed individuals who think
"DERP DUNZ DO ANYTHING STOOOOOP LET ME COMBO, Y U PLAY SPELLZ?"
Many will complain at anything, combos, counters, land destruction, discard, even creature DMG! (Ridiculous)
So in conclusion, land destruction is perfectly fine and in both casual and non its funny
The big issue is that WotC allows new/casual/bad players to believe that Land are somehow sacred yet mana rocks/mana dorks are not. So they never learn how to play against it/are taught that it is unfair. Stone Rain is bad yet Acidic Slime is fine but the second is the far better/more abusable card.
Oh there's a deck that flickers slime to blow up lands so they can't react starting on turn 3-4? Perfectly fair. Oh that red deck is blowing up lands with SPELLS on turn 3-4? HOLY **** OVERPOWERED UNFUN STOP IT STOP IT!!!
The problem is widespread. The players are at fault for thinking a balanced game should have an untouchable resource and WotC is at fault for catering to them.
It's a lot harder to stall with land destruction in EDH. I mean, how many LD spells cost 3 mana or less? Sinkhole, Stone Rain, Molten Rain, and...? There are some creatrures (Trench Wurm, for starters) with land destruction activated abilities, but these require a tap.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
The big issue is that WotC allows new/casual/bad players to believe that Land are somehow sacred yet mana rocks/mana dorks are not. So they never learn how to play against it/are taught that it is unfair. Stone Rain is bad yet Acidic Slime is fine but the second is the far better/more abusable card.
Oh there's a deck that flickers slime to blow up lands so they can't react starting on turn 3-4? Perfectly fair. Oh that red deck is blowing up lands with SPELLS on turn 3-4? HOLY **** OVERPOWERED UNFUN STOP IT STOP IT!!!
The problem is widespread. The players are at fault for thinking a balanced game should have an untouchable resource and WotC is at fault for catering to them.
I'm pretty new to EDH/Commander and the group I've been playing with has a soft ban on LD, but this is what I think: LD is an important component of red that helps make it more viable in EDH. If you take out LD, you cripple part of red's control strategy and that's why I've heard people talk about red being at a disadvantage, not as many mono-red decks, etc. Personally, I think it's fine because it's just as much a part of the game as black's discard, blue's counterspells, and white's damage prevention, and sometimes they're all just as annoying. I don't think you can take out a whole branch of magic because some people aren't good enough players to deal with it.
Land destruction is one of those things that's just ugly every which way you look at it.
It's kinda hard to build as the actual LD player, as if you're basing your whole deck's strategy on killing lands, you'll end up having to run like 30+ LD spells and may have a hard time finding room for stuff to actually finish the game. And if you don't consistently draw your LD and let them get too far ahead, the whole point of the deck just sort of gets thrown to crap and you end up with a crap ton of pretty unimpressive draws. And if you do draw your LD early and get it off, you just set the opponent up for a boring and joyless game that will probably just end up in scooping.
Although I'm not really one to complain about it and I think people should play whatever they want. Actual dedicated LD decks are kind of a turd in the punch bowl for everyone involved.
Aside from that, I totally don't mind the staple LD stuff like Strip Mine, Wasteland, Tectonic Edge and what not. It's annoying but I could live with occasionally getting one of those games where you got a lil mana screwed and your opponent got ahead and just completely boned you with a well timed Strip Mine. Still not as bad as consistent turn after turn land removal.
And I still love the whole "play a big threat and wipe out all lands" idea. It's more of just a big game winning play then it is a slow, grueling, suckfest that starts happening as early as turn 2.
So in short, dedicated LD decks are pretty lame all around. But using LD on the occasion to take advantage of a game state is all good in my book.
I'm fine with mass land destruction, so long as you win the game within 2-3 turns after
Joky however is different, if your being targeted like OP was and you do it so your not killed, thats a legit strat too.
What i hate is when someone does it with a lack luster board state so in esence all they did was prolong the game 30 minutes longer. OR they do it with badly evaluating the board of his opponets.
this one game, I was playing a bant deck with lots of graveyard recursion. One guy oblivion stones the board, I have saffi eirksdotter and reya dawnbringer on the board, so natrually, i sac saffi so Reya will come back into play, no one else has anything in play. THEN out of nowhere, this guy thats been stuck on 3-4 lands for 10 turns decides hes tired of discarding cards, so instead of discarding he plays Armageden. I pretty much won that game handidly bringing back my beaters and mana dorks from the graveyard and beating face. I beat his face first to teach him about bad plays, even if it won me the game.
The only time I've built a dedicated MLD deck was a jund indestructible/undying/reanimate deck. Every creature in the deck was designed to survive the end of the world. The deck was crazy effective, but I took it apart after a while. It lost some of its enjoyment knowing that as soon as I have Obliterate, Devastation, or Jokulhaups in my hand, I win the game. Still, in a competitive environment, I'd consider rebuilding it.
I've played Cataclysm in pretty much every EDH deck that I've played that could support it. Why? It can stop explosive starts and can contain out of control game states. Asuza will untap for with 7+ mana next turn and I just put down my forth land. It happens. A lot.
Without LD EDH becomes a game of ramp and dodge the counters.
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"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win."
That's exactly the point :). What's the difference if I Buried Alive and then Living Death into Acidic Slime, Woodfall Primus, and Sylvan Primordial on turn 4 or if I just Armageddon? I'd argue the former is worse for your opponent because I have a much more ideal board position afterwards. This all goes back to Jiv's comment - folks are quick to defend Acidic Slime & Co. as OK, but they're much more abuse-able than classic MLD spells.
That's exactly the point :). What's the difference if I Buried Alive and then Living Death into Acidic Slime, Woodfall Primus, and Sylvan Primordial on turn 4 or if I just Armageddon? I'd argue the former is worse for your opponent because I have a much more ideal board position afterwards. This all goes back to Jiv's comment - folks are quick to defend Acidic Slime & Co. as OK, but they're much more abuse-able than classic MLD spells.
agreed, i was playing a game to test the same deck with mld that started this thread, asked if mld would be ok. they said they would prefer if i didnt so i said sure and played a different deck, then my turn 6 or so (bad luck missed quite a few land drops and was on 4 lands, someone drops Sylvan Primordial, sure thats cool, 1 land, no biggie, then next turn the other ramp player proceeds to drop (this is the host who asked for no LD, mind you) his own Sylvan Primordial, followed by kiki-jiki and immediately made another primordial and then continued to do so every single turn untill i and the other non ramp player were both down to no lands at all, everyone seems to be peachy if their big fat creature blows up a land, but if a spell blows their lands up then youve just committed an unholy sin of EDH.
5 Color Cromat with tons of tutoring that doesn't reveal the card. Play a few classic playing cards, a couple Uno Draw 4s (Ancestral Recall eat your heart out), some basic Pokemon for defense, a Get Out of Jail Free card, and have assembling all five pieces of Exodia be your win condition. People will flip because EXODIA!? IMPOSSIBLE! NOBODY'S EVER BEEN ABLE TO SUMMON HIM!
I prefer Karmic Justice. You can't go ahead if you blow my lands
I'll wipe everything you got.
WUBGR - Enchantment Realms - WUBGR
An all-enchantment EDH deck: 0 creatures, 0 artifacts, 0 instants and sorceries.
GBUWR - The Necrotic Teenager and its 1,000,000 Combos - GBUWR
A deck built around Necrotic Ooze and its many friends.
In a ramp-heavy meta, it can be seen as a meta call, and thus an 'answer'. But I don't really think of it as an answer. I never play it in a deck as an answer. I use it as a threat.
Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer, Myr Battlesphere, Armageddon. Either someone answers that, or I win in a few turns and we shuffle up to play again.
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
You're assuming the player who just ramped doesn't have the ability to refuel their hand. Mana opens up that possibility. And you're also assuming that that player is terrible and is over extending.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane for the awesome Sig.
Currently Playing- EDH
GGGOmnath, Locus of the LifestreamGGG
BBBShirei, Lord of PoniesBBB
UWRasputin Dreamweaver, Russia's Greatest Love MachineUW
UBWZur, Killer of FunUBW
UGWTreva, Princess of CanterlotUGW
RWTajic, Master of the Reverse BladeRW
RRRZirilan, How to Train Your DragonRRR
PDH Decks
Gelectrode
Ascended Lawmage
Blaze Commando
It is very rare for me to agree with you. Well said.
Main Decks
Diaochan, Iroas, God of Victory, Kaalia, Marton, Ulasht, Volrath,
Kaervek, Prossh, Titania
Amusing or Themed
Progenitus
Pauper Guildmages
Azorius Boros Dimir Golgari Gruul Izzet Korozda
Orzhov Rakdos Rix Maadi Selesyna Simic Skarrg Zameck
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Wixoss - Just trial decks for now!
Dechs is a smart guy!
It all balances out at some point. Big Mana will come in (a decent number of players start with mono-green strategies), people will then go for MLD. Then Big Mana and MLD will be reduced because it will both be hard for BM to play all their lands and the other players on the table will be annoyed being consistently casualties.
WUBGR - Enchantment Realms - WUBGR
An all-enchantment EDH deck: 0 creatures, 0 artifacts, 0 instants and sorceries.
GBUWR - The Necrotic Teenager and its 1,000,000 Combos - GBUWR
A deck built around Necrotic Ooze and its many friends.
This. LD is never a problem. Bad/socially inept players are.
I am with you.... I am still arguing MLD is a bad idea.
You don't mess with the lands you mess with their hand, their library, their graveyard, their board. Having tons of land on the battlefield really doesn't mean a whole lot in most cases they still have to have and to cast the spells.
Lets say I am playing multiplayer.... One person is ramping hard, another person has and then uses MLD... (perhaps the blue player tapped out to counter a threat from the ramp player)... now you just prevented everyone else from playing the game not just the ramp player. You knew it was coming so you prepared and the ramp player is more likely than anyone else in the game to have low cost ways to get more land but what does everyone else do?.
"Sledgehammer for a problem that can be scalped" I like that analogy
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Like other big bomb cards, MLD is a finisher. This is why I run Land Tax and/or Burgeoning depending on the deck. Land tax for sure in most white decks. Boros charm has saved me a few times too. It is not like you come to the table without artifact, enchantments, and/or creature removal. 1v1 can be all about being proactive. Sometimes in multiplayer, proactiveness will make you a target; there, reactiveness leads to survival to finish the game.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
No, the ramp player is more likely out of ramp and lands in his deck. It will be many more turns for him to actually draw a land in this situation because he thinned his deck out already.
Unless he's not a bad player like the rest of the table that was overextending.
Also:
Their lands are part of their board.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Are you casting the spells legally? (I'm assuming yes)
Then Land Destruction, BEING LEGALLY CAST WITH LEGAL CARDS, is ok.
People only complain because they feel entitled for you to do nothing while they do everything. EDH seems to be a game about self-absorbed individuals who think
"DERP DUNZ DO ANYTHING STOOOOOP LET ME COMBO, Y U PLAY SPELLZ?"
Many will complain at anything, combos, counters, land destruction, discard, even creature DMG! (Ridiculous)
So in conclusion, land destruction is perfectly fine and in both casual and non its funny
EDH:
GRWMayael, the AnimaWRG
GUBDamia, Sage of StoneBUG
"A man is defined by his sacrifices rather than his gifts"
The big issue is that WotC allows new/casual/bad players to believe that Land are somehow sacred yet mana rocks/mana dorks are not. So they never learn how to play against it/are taught that it is unfair. Stone Rain is bad yet Acidic Slime is fine but the second is the far better/more abusable card.
Oh there's a deck that flickers slime to blow up lands so they can't react starting on turn 3-4? Perfectly fair. Oh that red deck is blowing up lands with SPELLS on turn 3-4? HOLY **** OVERPOWERED UNFUN STOP IT STOP IT!!!
The problem is widespread. The players are at fault for thinking a balanced game should have an untouchable resource and WotC is at fault for catering to them.
On phasing:
Well said.
My Saffi deck
It's kinda hard to build as the actual LD player, as if you're basing your whole deck's strategy on killing lands, you'll end up having to run like 30+ LD spells and may have a hard time finding room for stuff to actually finish the game. And if you don't consistently draw your LD and let them get too far ahead, the whole point of the deck just sort of gets thrown to crap and you end up with a crap ton of pretty unimpressive draws. And if you do draw your LD early and get it off, you just set the opponent up for a boring and joyless game that will probably just end up in scooping.
Although I'm not really one to complain about it and I think people should play whatever they want. Actual dedicated LD decks are kind of a turd in the punch bowl for everyone involved.
Aside from that, I totally don't mind the staple LD stuff like Strip Mine, Wasteland, Tectonic Edge and what not. It's annoying but I could live with occasionally getting one of those games where you got a lil mana screwed and your opponent got ahead and just completely boned you with a well timed Strip Mine. Still not as bad as consistent turn after turn land removal.
And I still love the whole "play a big threat and wipe out all lands" idea. It's more of just a big game winning play then it is a slow, grueling, suckfest that starts happening as early as turn 2.
So in short, dedicated LD decks are pretty lame all around. But using LD on the occasion to take advantage of a game state is all good in my book.
Joky however is different, if your being targeted like OP was and you do it so your not killed, thats a legit strat too.
What i hate is when someone does it with a lack luster board state so in esence all they did was prolong the game 30 minutes longer. OR they do it with badly evaluating the board of his opponets.
this one game, I was playing a bant deck with lots of graveyard recursion. One guy oblivion stones the board, I have saffi eirksdotter and reya dawnbringer on the board, so natrually, i sac saffi so Reya will come back into play, no one else has anything in play. THEN out of nowhere, this guy thats been stuck on 3-4 lands for 10 turns decides hes tired of discarding cards, so instead of discarding he plays Armageden. I pretty much won that game handidly bringing back my beaters and mana dorks from the graveyard and beating face. I beat his face first to teach him about bad plays, even if it won me the game.
It's Hip to be a Square
Blow up a few lands with Strip Mine and nobody bats an eye.
Blow up all the lands with Jokulhaups and everyone loses their mind.
It seems like a lot of having the cake and eating it too.
stuff
Curiosity: Where on this scale does "Blow up all the Forests and Islands with a Forked Wake of Destruction" end up? And where is Ruination?
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Without LD EDH becomes a game of ramp and dodge the counters.
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win."
That's exactly the point :). What's the difference if I Buried Alive and then Living Death into Acidic Slime, Woodfall Primus, and Sylvan Primordial on turn 4 or if I just Armageddon? I'd argue the former is worse for your opponent because I have a much more ideal board position afterwards. This all goes back to Jiv's comment - folks are quick to defend Acidic Slime & Co. as OK, but they're much more abuse-able than classic MLD spells.
stuff
agreed, i was playing a game to test the same deck with mld that started this thread, asked if mld would be ok. they said they would prefer if i didnt so i said sure and played a different deck, then my turn 6 or so (bad luck missed quite a few land drops and was on 4 lands, someone drops Sylvan Primordial, sure thats cool, 1 land, no biggie, then next turn the other ramp player proceeds to drop (this is the host who asked for no LD, mind you) his own Sylvan Primordial, followed by kiki-jiki and immediately made another primordial and then continued to do so every single turn untill i and the other non ramp player were both down to no lands at all, everyone seems to be peachy if their big fat creature blows up a land, but if a spell blows their lands up then youve just committed an unholy sin of EDH.
I love how it doesn't hit any of my doublers besides Vorinclex.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master