MRHblue, you are absolutely not the kind of person I was referring to. You're level-headed and make solid points and listen to others. I always appreciate your input.
AzureShadow, I just disagree. I think I could do a better job. I think the members of the RC are smart people and know a lot about Magic. They also have a unique and inspiring vision. I also think Lenin was very smart, knew a lot about people, and had a unique and inspiring vision. I disagree with Lenin and with the RC not because I dislike them or their vision, I just think it doesn't work. I'm just being realistic.
It is my personal philosophy that the only cards that should be banned are those that are good, quite possibly even staples, but due to their price tag, may put someone off from entering the format (I.E. Power 9, Mana Crypt, Imperial Seal, Karakas, others), or those that render the game irrelevant up to their casting (Sway of the Stars, Biorythm, Worldfire, Emrakul- because let's be honest, he'd be played in most decks, Time Walks, and is impossible to kill), or the Chaos Orb and Falling Star.
I feel as if there are many flaws in my logic but I'm not sure...
It is my personal philosophy that the only cards that should be banned are those that are good, quite possibly even staples, but due to their price tag, may put someone off from entering the format (I.E. Power 9, Mana Crypt, Imperial Seal, Karakas, others), or those that render the game irrelevant up to their casting (Sway of the Stars, Biorythm, Worldfire, Emrakul- because let's be honest, he'd be played in most decks, Time Walks, and is impossible to kill), or the Chaos Orb and Falling Star.
I feel as if there are many flaws in my logic but I'm not sure...
the flaw is pegging a $200 card as cost prohibitive.
The irony of the cost argument in the case of crypt is the demand will most likely tank hard if it gets banned making it surprisingly affordable.
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"I think EDH would be more fun for the majority of participants if players just showed eachother their decks rather than actually playing games out."
AzureShadow, I just disagree. I think I could do a better job. I think the members of the RC are smart people and know a lot about Magic. They also have a unique and inspiring vision. I also think Lenin was very smart, knew a lot about people, and had a unique and inspiring vision. I disagree with Lenin and with the RC not because I dislike them or their vision, I just think it doesn't work. I'm just being realistic.
I disagree here, because they've done a great job for the type of game they want to foster. I also think that there could at least be some give and take on he ban list regarding competitive players, because I'd like to see all kinds of players enjoy this game.
However, I think that, were those type of changes ever going to be made to the ban list (and this is theroretical from this point on), competitive players would have to accept that there would also be bans focused on casual play as well, in the same direction of bans that take place now. That's the kind of list of like to see, because I don't personally think it's healthy for anyone to only prompt one type o play over another, and that goes both ways to casual and competitive players alike.
AzureShadow, I just disagree. I think I could do a better job. I think the members of the RC are smart people and know a lot about Magic. They also have a unique and inspiring vision. I also think Lenin was very smart, knew a lot about people, and had a unique and inspiring vision. I disagree with Lenin and with the RC not because I dislike them or their vision, I just think it doesn't work. I'm just being realistic.
Do you think you could do a better job because you would make it more in line with competitive games? If I read this correctly you don't share their vision, and would change it and the ban list. If that's the case I think it would be more appropriate to say you think the vision should change. We have no idea what a ban list built by the RC around a different vision would be.
I honestly think 80+% of the games I am involved in would adhere to the RCs vision of the format. With that data I think they are doing a overall good job, but I get that not everyone has nearly that good an experience. Questioning authority is always a good practice, it keeps them considering fresh ideas and makes other people think too: Hence this is the longest thread in the forum
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I think that Affinity for Artifacts would have been fine if they had only printed Darksteel Citadel and no other Artifact Lands, but in an environment where all of your lands count towards Affinity the mechanic was too easy to abuse. I would call Affinity more along the lines of "poorly executed" rather than "poorly designed".
Call it "Poorly Developed" perhaps.
Also note that not a single one of those cards is good enough for Legacy/Vintage
Thoughtcast is played in Legacy Affinity as far as I know, though that could have changed. It's the only card with the actual affinity mechanic that's played in the Modern version, and sometimes it's not even used as a four-of.
If you're going to talk about tutors as ruining the singleton nature of the format, you know it's not just D-tutor that breaks that rule, it's all tutors. You'd have to make a special rule like "Players may not search their libraries" to equally hurt Rampant Growth and Imperial Seal.
The Singleton rule of the format is probably the most trampled upon, Making a case for banning tutors due to violating the spirit of the rules would have to first make a case to ban the rules biggest offenders, Relentless Rats and Shadowborn Apostle.
Have you noticed that Metalworker is only at 15%? At first I thought that perhaps it is because it wasn't initially in the list, but Time Vault got added even later and is at almost 50%.
Have you noticed that Metalworker is only at 15%? At first I thought that perhaps it is because it wasn't initially in the list, but Time Vault got added even later and is at almost 50%.
Not much of a surprise. Its not accidentally broken, has a fun unique effect, and is broken when built around. Sounds exactly like a solid EDH card to me. Time Vault only at 50% seems way more interesting in a "HUH?" sorta way.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Have you noticed that Metalworker is only at 15%? At first I thought that perhaps it is because it wasn't initially in the list, but Time Vault got added even later and is at almost 50%.
MW is one of those cards that only gets broken by people who want to break it. Those guys break whatever so I am not surprised most voters are indifferent.
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If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Yeah, but the percentage still seems awfully low when compared to similar cards like Hulk or Gifts.
Do you just mean other banned cards? I don't think MW is otherwise really close to those cards.
I mean similar in that a lot of people are very vocal about the card on both sides of the fence. Look at cards like Gifts, Hulk, Sol Ring, and Metalworker. We can literally fill pages of back and forth discussion, so the percentage should be higher. Even if it was around 30% I would say it is more accurate.
Yeah, but the percentage still seems awfully low when compared to similar cards like Hulk or Gifts.
Do you just mean other banned cards? I don't think MW is otherwise really close to those cards.
I mean similar in that a lot of people are very vocal about the card on both sides of the fence. Look at cards like Gifts, Hulk, Sol Ring, and Metalworker. We can literally fill pages of back and forth discussion, so the percentage should be higher. Even if it was around 30% I would say it is more accurate.
may be a flukey selection bias. How large is N?
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What that percentage is is out of those who have viewed the thread, only 15% have chosen that option. The sample Size is the number of total voters that have viewed the thread, of which I guess is around 175, because 70% of the people have chosen one card to be banned (103 total). This makes the number of viewers around 175.
Glad that AP Stats class I took last year paid off....
So decent sized. I'm guessing many people haven't seen how good it can be, because it was only played in a small section of decks.
A casual player puts Hermit Druid into a deck to ensure that they hit land drops and get some cards in their graveyards. A casual player puts Sundering Titan in their deck because it's a big fatty that'll blow some stuff up. One of those turns out to be a lot less pleasant than the other in actual game play and only gets a lot worse with minimal effort.
But that does not seem to track with cards like Panoptic Mirror or Gifts Ungiven who seem to be banned based on the worst thing you could do with them, but clearly have legitimate uses in a casual setting. Its not like they fall into Titan territory where the game becomes about them, and its surely not fast mana. Painter's servant should be the poster boy for Commander: Does whacky fun stuff with cards people normally don't use.
I know! It's like there isn't one single rule that's being applied and it's instead an intersection of multiple considerations that don't involve nice bright lines, being evaluated by multiple people. Banlists are fun!
I think Panoptic Mirror is one of the poster children for the premises I discussed in that linked article, for example. YMMV.
No one is saying that there are bright lines. It's definitely a question of degree. But when the set of multiple considerations, what have you, boils down in such a way that there's is little internal consistency, it becomes a self-evident play issue. Whatever issues are intended to be redressed by one ban are instead presented by the lack of another ban. You may think people are just being contrarian when they point out these inconsistencies, but really they just want their games fixed. As slim as the player segment is who will step out and advocate for a ban, the player group who cares about and will listen to justifications from the RC is even slimmer. They just want to play a game that works, as is, and if they want philosophy they will read them some Kant.
Specifically, this "legitimate use" consideration is a red herring, no bones about it. Time Vault is the ultimate "legitimate use" card. It's just a card that lets you "store" a turn. "Time Vault", get it? Except every player with a brain is going to try to find ways to untap it, just like every player with a brain is going to ask what happens if you have no basics in your deck and play Hermit Druid. Whatever the original intent, there's a hole in design.
So, in the end you have to impute stupidity, willful or otherwise, onto a player base to believe that they want to and will play with cards that have design holes in them. Sure, players still haven't figured out how these cards work unless you show them, right? Ask players what the obvious cards to use with Hermit Druid are, and of course they won't say Narcomoeba and Dread Return. They will say Knight of the Reliquary hard cast, because hard casting everything in this game is awesome, and attacking with creatures is the only way to win! I mean, I have no idea who this group is that only sees hard-cast, creature-beat plans as legitimate, and will consider any other use cheaty. That is not just an issue of things being murky and having other competing priorities. That's a presumption being made that players aren't interested in exploiting obvious, banned-elsewhere design holes, or worse, that they don't even know what cards like Time Vault really, really do.
Oh, but Time Vault and Protean Hulk and Worldgorger Dragon were used in such and such tournament, where it dominated. Wait, Hermit Druid was too... Maybe there's some unspoken level of community knowledge about an interaction that has to be reached before a ban becomes warranted. I personally would think it would have to do almost exclusively with the actual power level of that interaction, because hey, I don't like presuming people are idiots, or will prefer to continue willfully as idiots when they find out they're wrong. But even so, it would be hard to contend now that the level of knowledge hasn't been reached when 1/4 EDH'ers responding to the poll not only know about the interaction, but believe it's too strong to be dealt with by means other than a ban.
Specifically, this "legitimate use" consideration is a red herring, no bones about it. Time Vault is the ultimate "legitimate use" card. It's just a card that lets you "store" a turn. "Time Vault", get it? Except every player with a brain is going to try to find ways to untap it, just like every player with a brain is going to ask what happens if you have no basics in your deck and play Hermit Druid. Whatever the original intent, there's a hole in design.
I'm going to object here, for a few reasons.
1) The "legitimate use" of Time Vault is so thoroughly mediocre that nobody ever even considers using it for that use.
2) The unfair use of Time Vault can very easily happen "by accident". It's an artifact, so it goes in an artifact build. What goes in an artifact build? Well, you might run Voltaic Key to untap your Mana Vault/Grim Monolith. Or maybe Tezzeret the Seeker, who can generate a ton of mana if you have mana rocks, can tutor up artifacts, and functions as a wincon by Overrunning your team. These things can happen very easily without consciously deciding to do so. And even if you do consciously decide, you're not dedicating very much to that combo.
3) The broken use of Hermit Druid is not as simple as you make it out to be. You not only have to run no basic lands in your deck, but you also have to run a specific series of cards (including a few that have no legitimate use like Morselhoarder)
4) The broken use of Hermit Druid is also not as obvious as you make it out to be. I have several perfectly competent players in my playgroup who had no idea why the Ideal Banlist poll had Hermit Druid on it
5) Hermit Druid has a much more valid "legitimate use" than the Vault does.
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What that percentage is is out of those who have viewed the thread, only 15% have chosen that option. The sample Size is the number of total voters that have viewed the thread, of which I guess is around 175, because 70% of the people have chosen one card to be banned (103 total). This makes the number of viewers around 175.
Glad that AP Stats class I took last year paid off....
So decent sized. I'm guessing many people haven't seen how good it can be, because it was only played in a small section of decks.
There have been 143 voters as of this posting, assuming my math is correct. It should be a simple proportion so I don't really see why AP Stats would be involved. I'll just use the first card, Ad Nauseam, for the example. Since 35.7% out of a total of 100% have voted for it, that makes up one side of the proportion. The number of users that voted for it is 51, so that will go on the top of the other side. The number that we need to find, the total number of voters, will be on the bottom of that side, so we get:
35.7 / 100 = 51 / x
We can solve this by cross multiplying to get
35.7 * x = 51 * 100
which can then be solved for x to get
x = 5100 / 35.7
x = 142.857 ~ 143
EDIT: Jeez cryo, you set the poll to run for 1 year and 3 months? Is that like the max duration or something?
Specifically, this "legitimate use" consideration is a red herring, no bones about it. Time Vault is the ultimate "legitimate use" card. It's just a card that lets you "store" a turn. "Time Vault", get it? Except every player with a brain is going to try to find ways to untap it, just like every player with a brain is going to ask what happens if you have no basics in your deck and play Hermit Druid. Whatever the original intent, there's a hole in design.
I'm going to object here, for a few reasons.
1) The "legitimate use" of Time Vault is so thoroughly mediocre that nobody ever even considers using it for that use.
2) The unfair use of Time Vault can very easily happen "by accident". It's an artifact, so it goes in an artifact build. What goes in an artifact build? Well, you might run Voltaic Key to untap your Mana Vault/Grim Monolith. Or maybe Tezzeret the Seeker, who can generate a ton of mana if you have mana rocks, can tutor up artifacts, and functions as a wincon by Overrunning your team. These things can happen very easily without consciously deciding to do so. And even if you do consciously decide, you're not dedicating very much to that combo.
3) The broken use of Hermit Druid is not as simple as you make it out to be. You not only have to run no basic lands in your deck, but you also have to run a specific series of cards (including a few that have no legitimate use like Morselhoarder)
4) The broken use of Hermit Druid is also not as obvious as you make it out to be. I have several perfectly competent players in my playgroup who had no idea why the Ideal Banlist poll had Hermit Druid on it
5) Hermit Druid has a much more valid "legitimate use" than the Vault does.
But if the "intended use" of Time Valut is less busted, wouldn't that be less of a reason for a ban?
See, the whole point is that it doesn't matter what the "intended use" is, at all. It matters what the card actually does under conditions of actual play, and how game-warping that is. Time Vault gives you infinite turns if you have an untapper. Hermit Druid mills your deck into your graveyard if you have no basic land. If you don't have these things, it doesn't matter what it does. Maybe people wish the card wasn't busted, but if wishes were fishes we'd all live in the sea.
Specifically, this "legitimate use" consideration is a red herring, no bones about it. Time Vault is the ultimate "legitimate use" card. It's just a card that lets you "store" a turn. "Time Vault", get it? Except every player with a brain is going to try to find ways to untap it, just like every player with a brain is going to ask what happens if you have no basics in your deck and play Hermit Druid. Whatever the original intent, there's a hole in design.
I'm going to object here, for a few reasons.
1) The "legitimate use" of Time Vault is so thoroughly mediocre that nobody ever even considers using it for that use.
2) The unfair use of Time Vault can very easily happen "by accident". It's an artifact, so it goes in an artifact build. What goes in an artifact build? Well, you might run Voltaic Key to untap your Mana Vault/Grim Monolith. Or maybe Tezzeret the Seeker, who can generate a ton of mana if you have mana rocks, can tutor up artifacts, and functions as a wincon by Overrunning your team. These things can happen very easily without consciously deciding to do so. And even if you do consciously decide, you're not dedicating very much to that combo.
3) The broken use of Hermit Druid is not as simple as you make it out to be. You not only have to run no basic lands in your deck, but you also have to run a specific series of cards (including a few that have no legitimate use like Morselhoarder)
4) The broken use of Hermit Druid is also not as obvious as you make it out to be. I have several perfectly competent players in my playgroup who had no idea why the Ideal Banlist poll had Hermit Druid on it
5) Hermit Druid has a much more valid "legitimate use" than the Vault does.
There is no "accident", I find the entire concept of "accidentally ruining a game" to be silly. The player chose to run TV then chose to run untap effects, that's not accidentally creating infinite turns, that's maximizing the utility of TV. Choosing to build around TV is like choosing to build around anything, even Hermit Druid. A player can "plan" to use anything fairly. I have advocated for fair uses of Gifts and Recurring many times in this thread. A player can also "plan" to use anything as brutally and viciously as possible, it all depends on the player.
Here's another consideration about the nebulous "accidental break" banning criterion. If a player "accidentally" uncovers an undesirable game state or game-breaking interaction, e.g. Tezz + TV, then it should be a self-correcting issue amongst relatively mature adults. "Oops I ruined the game" followed up with "deck amended to no longer ruin games" seems to obviate a ban on the grounds of "accidental game ruining". Unless...EDH players are so sensitive that even a single icky game ruins the format and they leave forever afterwards.
Illustrative anecdote:
Player X is running a RGU "good stuff" deck (maelstrom wanderer) and as a result has Kiki-Jiki, Eternal Witness, and Time Warp in his deck. During a game, he "accidentally" assembles this combo. The group proceeds to nod, accept defeat, and Player X removes Time Warp from his deck and adds something else. Why did he do this? His deck is packed to the rafters with ways to assemble that combo henceforth so rather than taint future games with the "I could have, but didn't..." state of affairs he unbroke his deck.
I think "fair use" has plenty of mileage for arguments but "accidental game breaking" needs to be put to bed. Either it is not an accident or it is self-correcting amongst reasonable players.
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Shouldn't ease of "discovering" the combo play a factor? Untap effects to go with TV or extra turn cards for PM aren't exactly a hidden thing, but a HD combo wasn't readily apparent until Lab Maniac was printed. Even instawin Gifts or Hulk combos are harder to spot without putting some effort into.
AzureShadow, I just disagree. I think I could do a better job. I think the members of the RC are smart people and know a lot about Magic. They also have a unique and inspiring vision. I also think Lenin was very smart, knew a lot about people, and had a unique and inspiring vision. I disagree with Lenin and with the RC not because I dislike them or their vision, I just think it doesn't work. I'm just being realistic.
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the flaw is pegging a $200 card as cost prohibitive.
The irony of the cost argument in the case of crypt is the demand will most likely tank hard if it gets banned making it surprisingly affordable.
However, I think that, were those type of changes ever going to be made to the ban list (and this is theroretical from this point on), competitive players would have to accept that there would also be bans focused on casual play as well, in the same direction of bans that take place now. That's the kind of list of like to see, because I don't personally think it's healthy for anyone to only prompt one type o play over another, and that goes both ways to casual and competitive players alike.
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Thoughtcast is played in Legacy Affinity as far as I know, though that could have changed. It's the only card with the actual affinity mechanic that's played in the Modern version, and sometimes it's not even used as a four-of.
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The Singleton rule of the format is probably the most trampled upon, Making a case for banning tutors due to violating the spirit of the rules would have to first make a case to ban the rules biggest offenders, Relentless Rats and Shadowborn Apostle.
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MW is one of those cards that only gets broken by people who want to break it. Those guys break whatever so I am not surprised most voters are indifferent.
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If it wasn't a creature; it'd be much harder to argue for unbanning.
Every color but blue can kill it.
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I mean similar in that a lot of people are very vocal about the card on both sides of the fence. Look at cards like Gifts, Hulk, Sol Ring, and Metalworker. We can literally fill pages of back and forth discussion, so the percentage should be higher. Even if it was around 30% I would say it is more accurate.
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may be a flukey selection bias. How large is N?
Glad that AP Stats class I took last year paid off....
So decent sized. I'm guessing many people haven't seen how good it can be, because it was only played in a small section of decks.
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No one is saying that there are bright lines. It's definitely a question of degree. But when the set of multiple considerations, what have you, boils down in such a way that there's is little internal consistency, it becomes a self-evident play issue. Whatever issues are intended to be redressed by one ban are instead presented by the lack of another ban. You may think people are just being contrarian when they point out these inconsistencies, but really they just want their games fixed. As slim as the player segment is who will step out and advocate for a ban, the player group who cares about and will listen to justifications from the RC is even slimmer. They just want to play a game that works, as is, and if they want philosophy they will read them some Kant.
Specifically, this "legitimate use" consideration is a red herring, no bones about it. Time Vault is the ultimate "legitimate use" card. It's just a card that lets you "store" a turn. "Time Vault", get it? Except every player with a brain is going to try to find ways to untap it, just like every player with a brain is going to ask what happens if you have no basics in your deck and play Hermit Druid. Whatever the original intent, there's a hole in design.
So, in the end you have to impute stupidity, willful or otherwise, onto a player base to believe that they want to and will play with cards that have design holes in them. Sure, players still haven't figured out how these cards work unless you show them, right? Ask players what the obvious cards to use with Hermit Druid are, and of course they won't say Narcomoeba and Dread Return. They will say Knight of the Reliquary hard cast, because hard casting everything in this game is awesome, and attacking with creatures is the only way to win! I mean, I have no idea who this group is that only sees hard-cast, creature-beat plans as legitimate, and will consider any other use cheaty. That is not just an issue of things being murky and having other competing priorities. That's a presumption being made that players aren't interested in exploiting obvious, banned-elsewhere design holes, or worse, that they don't even know what cards like Time Vault really, really do.
Oh, but Time Vault and Protean Hulk and Worldgorger Dragon were used in such and such tournament, where it dominated. Wait, Hermit Druid was too... Maybe there's some unspoken level of community knowledge about an interaction that has to be reached before a ban becomes warranted. I personally would think it would have to do almost exclusively with the actual power level of that interaction, because hey, I don't like presuming people are idiots, or will prefer to continue willfully as idiots when they find out they're wrong. But even so, it would be hard to contend now that the level of knowledge hasn't been reached when 1/4 EDH'ers responding to the poll not only know about the interaction, but believe it's too strong to be dealt with by means other than a ban.
I'm going to object here, for a few reasons.
1) The "legitimate use" of Time Vault is so thoroughly mediocre that nobody ever even considers using it for that use.
2) The unfair use of Time Vault can very easily happen "by accident". It's an artifact, so it goes in an artifact build. What goes in an artifact build? Well, you might run Voltaic Key to untap your Mana Vault/Grim Monolith. Or maybe Tezzeret the Seeker, who can generate a ton of mana if you have mana rocks, can tutor up artifacts, and functions as a wincon by Overrunning your team. These things can happen very easily without consciously deciding to do so. And even if you do consciously decide, you're not dedicating very much to that combo.
3) The broken use of Hermit Druid is not as simple as you make it out to be. You not only have to run no basic lands in your deck, but you also have to run a specific series of cards (including a few that have no legitimate use like Morselhoarder)
4) The broken use of Hermit Druid is also not as obvious as you make it out to be. I have several perfectly competent players in my playgroup who had no idea why the Ideal Banlist poll had Hermit Druid on it
5) Hermit Druid has a much more valid "legitimate use" than the Vault does.
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35.7 / 100 = 51 / x
We can solve this by cross multiplying to get
35.7 * x = 51 * 100
which can then be solved for x to get
x = 5100 / 35.7
x = 142.857 ~ 143
EDIT: Jeez cryo, you set the poll to run for 1 year and 3 months? Is that like the max duration or something?
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But if the "intended use" of Time Valut is less busted, wouldn't that be less of a reason for a ban?
See, the whole point is that it doesn't matter what the "intended use" is, at all. It matters what the card actually does under conditions of actual play, and how game-warping that is. Time Vault gives you infinite turns if you have an untapper. Hermit Druid mills your deck into your graveyard if you have no basic land. If you don't have these things, it doesn't matter what it does. Maybe people wish the card wasn't busted, but if wishes were fishes we'd all live in the sea.
There is no "accident", I find the entire concept of "accidentally ruining a game" to be silly. The player chose to run TV then chose to run untap effects, that's not accidentally creating infinite turns, that's maximizing the utility of TV. Choosing to build around TV is like choosing to build around anything, even Hermit Druid. A player can "plan" to use anything fairly. I have advocated for fair uses of Gifts and Recurring many times in this thread. A player can also "plan" to use anything as brutally and viciously as possible, it all depends on the player.
Here's another consideration about the nebulous "accidental break" banning criterion. If a player "accidentally" uncovers an undesirable game state or game-breaking interaction, e.g. Tezz + TV, then it should be a self-correcting issue amongst relatively mature adults. "Oops I ruined the game" followed up with "deck amended to no longer ruin games" seems to obviate a ban on the grounds of "accidental game ruining". Unless...EDH players are so sensitive that even a single icky game ruins the format and they leave forever afterwards.
Illustrative anecdote:
Player X is running a RGU "good stuff" deck (maelstrom wanderer) and as a result has Kiki-Jiki, Eternal Witness, and Time Warp in his deck. During a game, he "accidentally" assembles this combo. The group proceeds to nod, accept defeat, and Player X removes Time Warp from his deck and adds something else. Why did he do this? His deck is packed to the rafters with ways to assemble that combo henceforth so rather than taint future games with the "I could have, but didn't..." state of affairs he unbroke his deck.
I think "fair use" has plenty of mileage for arguments but "accidental game breaking" needs to be put to bed. Either it is not an accident or it is self-correcting amongst reasonable players.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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