They both enter at the same time. If they both had an ETB effect then the effects would trigger at the same time and the controller must decide what order they go on the stack. Since these are choices you make during the zone change then the moment you let a GWx deck resolve T&N you have been locked out of the game.
Assuming of course you don't have any permanent on board with an ability to kill either of them (yet at that point why are they casting T&N at all at that point).
That is pretty bull***** but I am still not firmly behind either needing to be banned.
I think cards like Iona are fine. It's super expensive and there are answers all over the place. Between 3 people something should stop it most of the time. Like many powerhouse cards in EDH, I feel people just don't want to devote room to the answers. If a common EDH staple shuts you down or wins a game hard, you should build with that in mind. That said: Nevinrryl's Disk, Oblivion Stone, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Karn Liberated, Duplicant, and Path of the Eldrazi are available to every deck...
The difference between Tooth and Nail for Iona + Servant and Tooth and Nail for Mike&Trike or Kiki-Conscripts is that Spot Removal can interact with the latter two.
Why is this a concern? The type of player that would do that clearly isn't the type of player that the RC wants to balance the format for. They've routinely stated that they don't balanced based on competitive value, or deliberate troublemakers, because their vision of the format excludes those players. They want to create a format where that sort of action is looked down on, but not banned, and the banlist is used to keep cards that accidentally ruin games out. If, in a painter's servant enabled format, a player were to T+N for the lockout, the proper solution would be the social contract, not the global banlist. So I don't get why in our format, Iona+PS is a problem.
Iona on her own seems more concerning to me going by the RC's banning criteria. It can and is used to accidentally lock people out of games (Player X is winning with a G/B deck, player Y needs to cast Iona to keep him in check, naming B to prevent some dastardly spell. Player Z with his innocuous mono black deck is now completely locked out).
Iona makes me think of some awesome action figure that has separate parts. It's huge, and cool, but it also has small bits that are choking hazards. Every now and then some toddler* plays with it, thinking it's great fun, and then chokes to death on the small bits that they stuck in their mouth. In the past, the RC has banned similar toys. Sundering Titan was banned because it could accidentally single out one player and punish them for basics. Primeval Titan was banned because people couldn't help themselves around it and always cloned/briberied/blinked, etc it. Sylvan Primordial banned because it was the next best titan. Meanwhile, Hermit Druid is unbanned because it can be used fairly without busting the game open. The fair use of Iona can still accidentally (and often does) lock non threatening players out of the game. Competitively, Iona could see use as a pretty solid lock out combo with Servant (what important person cares about competitive EDH though?), but casually all it can really do is hurt feelings occasionally.
Meanwhile, Servant is a card that belongs in the format. It's got a cool effect, that has interactions with tons of other cards, some crazy, some really really good. It can be used meanly, but only on purpose: it's always a deliberate decision to include things like All is Dust in a deck if you're running Painter's Servant. The RC isn't concerned with deliberate troublemakers (the bullies in the playpen so to speak). Painter's Servant is a card that lets the super johnnies have fun. They can build their incredibly complicated death traps with it. Let the Johnnies have more fun. Unban Servant.
*I don't actually think casual players are toddlers, but sometimes that's how the RC comes across as thinking to me.
Spot removal as a reliable answer is extremely important, because every list has access to it to some extent, while making something "Counter or lose" means only blue really gets to interact with it.
This is why Primetime, Sylvan, Sundering Titan, and Griselbrand aren't okay, yet Consecrated Sphinx, Prophet, Deadeye Navigator, and Jin Gitaxias are.
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Spot removal as a reliable answer is extremely important, because every list has access to it to some extent, while making something "Counter or lose" means only blue really gets to interact with it.
This is why Primetime, Sylvan, Sundering Titan, and Griselbrand aren't okay, yet Consecrated Sphinx, Prophet, Deadeye Navigator, and Jin Gitaxias are.
True, but that logic applies to Iona regardless of whether painter's servant is in the format.
True, but that logic applies to Iona regardless of whether painter's servant is in the format.
Right, but the presence of Iona + Servant allows for the possibility of both entering at the same time (even inadvertently from two different decks, via Living Death or Warp World or something), which can then no longer be interacted with with spot removal.
I think the unspoken issue with the Servant though is that a lot of older cards are just miserable to play with him. Lifeforce, Deathgrip, Tidal Control, etc, these are the kind of things that can commonly be seen tag-teaming with him.
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True, but that logic applies to Iona regardless of whether painter's servant is in the format.
Right, but the presence of Iona + Servant allows for the possibility of both entering at the same time (even inadvertently from two different decks, via Living Death or Warp World or something), which can then no longer be interacted with with spot removal.
I think the unspoken issue with the Servant though is that a lot of older cards are just miserable to play with him. Lifeforce, Deathgrip, Tidal Control, etc, these are the kind of things that can commonly be seen tag-teaming with him.
True, but for the same reason Hermit Druid is still around, that shouldn't matter. You have to go way out of your way to make servant miserable. Because those cards are almost universally terrible without him. I think you'd mostly see people doing cute things with it, like using it in an 8.5 tails deck.
IF Ugin was merely one (of a few) card that prevents Painter's Servant from being unbanned, the same logic can be applied to the tuck rule changes.
Did the rule change affect certain cards/strategies? Yes.
Are people still playing EDH? Yes.
I'm pretty sure EDH will still be fine with a Painter's Servant unban. People who are gonna abuse cards are already doing so with unbanned cards already. We're arguing based on #responsibleusage here.
I think an important difference in this case though is that with Painter's Servant, you have a card that looks like it could be used fairly, but for every deck using the servant with Crusade, there will be more decks using it with colour-hosing cards. This is why cards like Protean Hulk and Tinker are banned. Sure, you could play them fairly, but as time goes on, more and more people are drawn into playing them in an unfair manner and the card even encourages that sort of play because of how easy it is.
I think an important difference in this case though is that with Painter's Servant, you have a card that looks like it could be used fairly, but for every deck using the servant with Crusade, there will be more decks using it with colour-hosing cards. This is why cards like Protean Hulk and Tinker are banned. Sure, you could play them fairly, but as time goes on, more and more people are drawn into playing them in an unfair manner and the card even encourages that sort of play because of how easy it is.
I mean, I think Hulk is a fine unban as well.
Tinker, not so much, because it breaks the "too much mana too quickly" rule. Being able to get a 12-mana artifact out on turn two (without even having to DRAW said artifact) is just a weeee bit bonkers.
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True, but that logic applies to Iona regardless of whether painter's servant is in the format.
Right, but the presence of Iona + Servant allows for the possibility of both entering at the same time (even inadvertently from two different decks, via Living Death or Warp World or something), which can then no longer be interacted with with spot removal.
I think the unspoken issue with the Servant though is that a lot of older cards are just miserable to play with him. Lifeforce, Deathgrip, Tidal Control, etc, these are the kind of things that can commonly be seen tag-teaming with him.
I always thought of it like a parent telling a child they can only buy one toy at the toy store. You can have Painter's Servant or you can have Iona, but you can't have both. Painter's Servant is just easier to abuse, so it got banned. Having played with and against Iona, I'd say that she's completely fair. Annoying? Absolutely. Abusive? Almost. She's just a big dumb creature with no protection that has a gross ability. I find that in casual games she gets hated out fast for being such a big threat and that in competitive games she's probably not going to resolve or else is going to eat a StP or pongify or something. Sure, there are various ways to protect her or flicker her for abuse, but by and large any instant speed removal or board wipe is going to work (especially if more than one player wants her off the board).
As for Prophet, the card is again at its strongest in UGx decks. Being able to run it in non-Green Blue decks would be an advantage as far as the untap ability goes, and having the creature flash in non-Blue Green decks is solid (though there are plenty of other ways to access that effect). But literally nobody was calling for a ban on Vedalken Orrery or Seedborn Muse, so I don't really feel like a less color-restricted Prophet is considerably more dangerous.
Both cards are strong, but neither are universally centralizing to the degree of Primetime or Sylvan, even REMOTELY.
Oh I am going to have to respectfully disagree on Prophet...it's still one of the more unfun cards out there, it warps games around itself and it requires an instant answer or the Prophet owner essentially starts taking extra turns, either recurring his graveyard, flashing out steal effects, bounce effects ,draw effects, all of which make answering Prophet all the more difficult. I've even seen decks play it without ever playing the commander, just to take a ride to Valuetown.
It is a ridiculously annoying and centralizing card and one that makes games extremely tedious and unenjoyable. I keep thinking "Three more months!" in the hopes that it gets banned, but at this point I'm just resigned that I need to pack my deck full of creature exile spells or exile countermagic just so I can play my turns.
I'm not going to go into all the reasons PoK should not be banned because I've covered it before, but let's stop saying things are "unfun" when it is completely arbitrary as to what it means and literally every EDH player is going to have a different definition. I'm going to address things specifically brought up by your post, however.
Second, can we stop exaggerating and saying the PoK player gets to "essentially take extra turns"? Because no, they ******* do not get to take "extra turns" or even close. Period. End of discussion. There are so many ways it isn't an extra turn that it isn't funny. Stop saying that it is with the hope of fear mongering a ban predicated on blatant lies. People can read you know.
PoK is no more warping than a Vorinclex, or a Jin-Gitaxis, or a Consecrated Sphinx, or any other creature that demands to be answered on board. In fact, it is even more narrow than those cards because, although it does demand an answer and its colors support its abilities, it does absolutely nothing by itself. You need to have all of those cards to generate advantage already in your hand or (shocker!) you can't do anything with it. All of these other cards that are apparently less egregious to you are far more potent all by themselves making them better candidates to be centralizing. Additionally, having 2+ PoK does nothing, unlike previously banned centralizing cards (PT, SP, et al.) taking away a big piece of the "centralization" by making the value of cloning/blinking your own creature useless.
If you can't handle a 2/3 with a static ability, I don't know what to say. There is no way that it ruins your fun that much and, if it does, you have clearly done nothing to remedy your situation in the 2 years it has been in print making you just as much at fault as the card's alleged transgressions.
Riven, you can disagree with his post and contest it without being that aggressive. Just because you feel like you're repeating yourself does not give you an excuse to be rude.
Apologies. It's quite frustrating to have to constantly repeat myself to begin with because, at this point, there isn't anything I haven't addressed about PoK. It's even worse when the arguments against it are either subjective in their entirety or are complete fabrications, or, at the least, selective half truths.
Funny though, I feel exactly the same whenever I have to explain the various reasons why PoK SHOULD be banned...
If you have one that is not covered by the above post I would absolutely love to read it.
Alright, let's see, what did Riven not cover...
First off, Riven says it's "Not even close to extra turns. Period." He's half right there. You still get a big chunk of an untap step and get to cast about half of the cards that are likely to be in your deck - probably more if you play Prophet right - during your opponent's turns. While this doesn't exactly amount to extra turns, it does a fine impression of doing a missed-land-drop turn in many a well-built deck.
He also considers PoK no more warping than Vorinclex, Jin-Gitaxias and Sphinx. So he's no more warping than a 8 mana card, a 10 mana card and a card that usually amounts to a Recurring Insight...right. No. While it's true Prophet does not generate CARD advantage on its own, it certainly creates mana advantage. This is something it's older cousin Seedborn Muse also does. Unlike Seedborn Muse though, Prophet also gives you a great opportunity to use that mana during opponent's turn aside from activated abilities/instants and the likes. As far as comparing it to 'Clex and Jin goes...let's go with Vorinclex first, shall we? Vorinclex gives you x2 mana and your opponents x0.5. Powerful effect, yes. Prophet gives you up to x3 mana though (Presuming 3 opponents). While she doesn't untap artifacts, you still can get 20 mana a turn cycle - and that's if you drop her turn 5 without ramp. Store that mana in a Kruphix or Omnath and voila. Vorinclex does come with a beefy body but that's not why you play him. As for Jin Gitaxias...yes he's more impacting, BUT does cost 10 mana, has a very weak body for its mana cost and doesn't generate you the mana to use its cards. Not saying it's a poor card, it's hardly without faults though.
So, having looked at his main points, let's see what he didn't address.
- The fact that games screech down to a grinding halt, centralized around Prophet's controller.
This is a simple truth unless someone can remove it immediately. Turns will centralize around the PoK player looking for their permission to do ANYTHING, the PoK player flashing in stuff on endsteps, etc etc.
- The fact that PoK is more of a glue type of card, rather than an immediate impact card.
Most of the banlist cards are cards that have an immediate huge impact. This includes the likes of Sylvan Primordial, Griselbrand, Emrakul, Channel, Biorhytm, Worldfire...you name it. There are however a few pieces on there that don't do anything without something else to either abuse what they do, or need other pieces to even work. Examples here include Protean Hulk, Recurring Nightmare and Painter's Servant. Prophet kind of falls into the latter catagory. It doesn't immediately have a huge crashing impact on the game, but it enables the kind of plays that will work towards said ending much faster than is often desired. Due to it's colour combination, decks around it are easily built to gain huge advantage from the ability. Seedborn Muse is already a great card for those decks, giving creatures flash while taking away the untap-artifacts ability makes it go crazy.
- Prophet's effect on more kitchentable EDH.
This point is a bit more abstract, perhaps. But the thing is that the RC clearly does not ban for "hyper competitive" lists and playgroups, as is evident by their refusal to ban Hermit Druid/Ad Nauseam. Prophet perhaps doesn't do much in a world where every deck packs 10 1/2/3 mana instant-speed spot removal cards. But most metas aren't like that. Prophet becomes much better the lower the power level of tables are. While this is to an extent true for many cards, Prophet's power rating scales much faster depending the amount of immediate answers get played, and the lower you go, the lower that number is. Prophet-heavy decks, as far as I can see, fall right into the area which the RC SEEMS to base its banlist on.
The problem with Prophet is that unlike Sylvan Primordial or Griselbrand you can't just point at ONE thing and say "Yup, that's why it's banworthy". It's a whole scala of reasons, and if it had only one or two of those reasons, it wouldn't be banworthy. But it's the full package.
Yes, it's stronger to have Vedalken Orrery and Seedborn Muse out. But that's like complaining a Mwuonvoli Acid-Moss copied two times has the same effect as a Sylvan Primordial as far as I'm concerned. If two cards need to be combined to be a bit stronger than one card on it's own, that doesn't mean the two cards combined are broken.
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I agree with everything you said but generating 'mana advantage' is useless without the card support backing it up. Which is what keeps it in check. The deck makeup in EDH also factors, if Prophet was legendary it would be banned in half a second.
I think cards like Deadeye and Prophet are the perfect EDH training wheels. They are both cards that have the potential to dramatically effect the game yet once you understand both they are both remarkably easy to shut down.
Most people don't know you can respond to the soul bond trigger with Deadeye. Can't tell you how many games a player whines that they cant kill it cuz I'll just keep flickering it.
Most people don't know you can respond to the soul bond trigger with Deadeye. Can't tell you how many games a player whines that they cant kill it cuz I'll just keep flickering it.
That's partially because there are a portion of players who don't properly understand the stack, and another portion of players who try to rush through priorities (in this case going from casting to resolution of the soulbond trigger without properly giving everyone time to respond).
I agree with everything you said but generating 'mana advantage' is useless without the card support backing it up. Which is what keeps it in check. The deck makeup in EDH also factors, if Prophet was legendary it would be banned in half a second.
I think cards like Deadeye and Prophet are the perfect EDH training wheels. They are both cards that have the potential to dramatically effect the game yet once you understand both they are both remarkably easy to shut down.
But isn't the reason that Protean Hulk is banned over T&N because the hulk is easier to tutor for/manipulate by green? Green decks can pretty much ensure that they get PoK whenever they want via many powerful tutors like Green Sun's Zenith, Chord of Calling, Worldly Tutor, and a bunch of good G/x and B tutors.
- The fact that games screech down to a grinding halt, centralized around Prophet's controller.
This is a simple truth unless someone can remove it immediately. Turns will centralize around the PoK player looking for their permission to do ANYTHING, the PoK player flashing in stuff on endsteps, etc etc.
I just don't see how this is pok's fault in any way.
-How are games coming to a grinding halt? Banning pok wouldn't suddenly make slow players play the game faster. I've seen a person take multible wheels, timewalks and million copied mana geysers and still not get anything done.
-If pok is playing control and has mana open wouldn't you regardless ask his permission even if there was no pok on the field?
- Flashing in stuff at end step doesn't really take too long.
- The fact that games screech down to a grinding halt, centralized around Prophet's controller.
This is a simple truth unless someone can remove it immediately. Turns will centralize around the PoK player looking for their permission to do ANYTHING, the PoK player flashing in stuff on endsteps, etc etc.
I just don't see how this is pok's fault in any way.
-How are games coming to a grinding halt? Banning pok wouldn't suddenly make slow players play the game faster. I've seen a person take multible wheels, timewalks and million copied mana geysers and still not get anything done.
-If pok is playing control and has mana open wouldn't you regardless ask his permission even if there was no pok on the field?
- Flashing in stuff at end step doesn't really take too long.
He's saying the games comes to a grinding halt because you must deal with the PoK immediately or it threatens take over the game when your opponent is resolving 4+ spells to everyone else's 1-2 spells. Essentially you switch to archenemy while it is out.
I agree with everything you said but generating 'mana advantage' is useless without the card support backing it up. Which is what keeps it in check. The deck makeup in EDH also factors, if Prophet was legendary it would be banned in half a second.
I think cards like Deadeye and Prophet are the perfect EDH training wheels. They are both cards that have the potential to dramatically effect the game yet once you understand both they are both remarkably easy to shut down.
But isn't the reason that Protean Hulk is banned over T&N because the hulk is easier to tutor for/manipulate by green? Green decks can pretty much ensure that they get PoK whenever they want via many powerful tutors like Green Sun's Zenith, Chord of Calling, Worldly Tutor, and a bunch of good G/x and B tutors.
Sure but now it is
1. I have a mitt full of creatures & instants(probably at least 1 counter) & 1 tutor
2. I tutor for Prophet
3. If 2. did not put Prophet into play I cast Prophet
4. Prophet Resolves
5. I still have mana left to flash something in AND protect Prophet (if you don't have both then you just got a 2/3, or you just got one other creature in your hand and lost 2 other cards for it)
This is all the pieces around only your hand, this does not take into account the 3 other hands of cards and boards around the table. This is why PoK doesn't need to get banned it falls down way too easily.
In the odd case where someone gets the perfect set up and lands one then yes they deserve to win that game because they plays with their deck out played their opponents it is the same as setting up an artifact combo or anything else.
(I also think Protean probably doesn't need to be banned)
Most people don't know you can respond to the soul bond trigger with Deadeye. Can't tell you how many games a player whines that they cant kill it cuz I'll just keep flickering it.
That's partially because there are a portion of players who don't properly understand the stack, and another portion of players who try to rush through priorities (in this case going from casting to resolution of the soulbond trigger without properly giving everyone time to respond).
I think we're way, way past the stage of players not understanding the stack. Players who play against Deadeye and losing to it a few times is a good learning curve. Generally, Magic players are smart and they adapt fairly well. However, players who play Deadeye are smart too. They don't run it straight without having mana and/or some protection as backup. Let's not try to assume that playing against combo is a fair playing field. If Johnny wants to combo, he will do it as best as he can. It's up to people to cooperate. Or talk him out of it (assuming he's the one not in sync).
I think an important difference in this case though is that with Painter's Servant, you have a card that looks like it could be used fairly, but for every deck using the servant with Crusade, there will be more decks using it with colour-hosing cards. This is why cards like Protean Hulk and Tinker are banned. Sure, you could play them fairly, but as time goes on, more and more people are drawn into playing them in an unfair manner and the card even encourages that sort of play because of how easy it is.
I'll just say that "responsible" EDH players will always play "responsibly". If you're the type of player who noticed an unintentional combo/interaction and feel bad about it, you fit that bill. It's a philosophy of playing. Just because a few combolicious cards being unbanned isn't gonna change the way you play, or more importantly, the group plays.
What I believe you're speaking about is FAD. Everyone loves to be trendy. But we know that you always revert to that worn-out jeans. I don't think we should be worry about things that last for the moment.
I agree with everything you said but generating 'mana advantage' is useless without the card support backing it up. Which is what keeps it in check. The deck makeup in EDH also factors, if Prophet was legendary it would be banned in half a second.
I think cards like Deadeye and Prophet are the perfect EDH training wheels. They are both cards that have the potential to dramatically effect the game yet once you understand both they are both remarkably easy to shut down.
But isn't the reason that Protean Hulk is banned over T&N because the hulk is easier to tutor for/manipulate by green? Green decks can pretty much ensure that they get PoK whenever they want via many powerful tutors like Green Sun's Zenith, Chord of Calling, Worldly Tutor, and a bunch of good G/x and B tutors.
Sure but now it is
1. I have a mitt full of creatures & instants(probably at least 1 counter) & 1 tutor
2. I tutor for Prophet
3. If 2. did not put Prophet into play I cast Prophet
4. Prophet Resolves
5. I still have mana left to flash something in AND protect Prophet (if you don't have both then you just got a 2/3, or you just got one other creature in your hand and lost 2 other cards for it)
This is all the pieces around only your hand, this does not take into account the 3 other hands of cards and boards around the table. This is why PoK doesn't need to get banned it falls down way too easily.
In the odd case where someone gets the perfect set up and lands one then yes they deserve to win that game because they plays with their deck out played their opponents it is the same as setting up an artifact combo or anything else.
(I also think Protean probably doesn't need to be banned)
Numbers 1 and 5 can pretty much be summed up by "don't play stupidly." The reality behind PoK is that the "perfect setup" is simply good cards: you need any of an interchangeable pile of draw spells and creatures. In the same way HD and AN are not banned due to their insane power being restricted to cutthroat uses, PoK has its gamebreaking power in the atmosphere that the RC professes to cultivate.
Drafted my cube again last night. I drafted the nuts Mimeoplasm deck with Kokopuffs, Sylvan Primordial, Woodfall Primus, Terastadon, Protean Hulk, Avenger of Zendikar, Flash, and Recurring Nightmare. Recurring Nightmare can stay banned. That card is stupid good.
Drafted my cube again last night. I drafted the nuts Mimeoplasm deck with Kokopuffs, Sylvan Primordial, Woodfall Primus, Terastadon, Protean Hulk, Avenger of Zendikar, Flash, and Recurring Nightmare. Recurring Nightmare can stay banned. That card is stupid good.
The problem here may be more Sylvan and Hulk than Nightmare itself. How much graveyard removal does your cube run? Do people actually play it?
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The problem here may be more Sylvan and Hulk than Nightmare itself. How much graveyard removal does your cube run? Do people actually play it?
It was more AoZ giving me constant fodder. SP only came out once towards the end, and PH gave me an E-Wit (getting back a Mana Drain) and Thassa. There is a bit of grave hate but I don't think people properly respect it yet. Scavenging Ooze was a last pick handed to me, for example.
To answer your real reply, I fully understand that cubing vs constructed is a whole different environment and you can't properly compare the two. However, when we're talking about a card like RN, which only has very specific types of answers, I think that the offset of more reliable answers would not make up for just how easy RN is to break. I've drafted it twice in the last two weeks and both times it was a strong card, regardless of the actual creatures being reanimated.
Library of Alexandria, on the other hand, is another card I've drafted twice and both times it was underwhelming. Last week I played it T1 and drew three cards before it ate a Strip Mine, and last night I got it out around T3, but by then my Exploration had done so much work that I couldn't draw off Library until much later when my Prime Speaker died to refill my hand. At that point I was able to constantly draw a card a turn cycle (go go go PoK), but even there it wasn't any better than Phyrexian Arena would have been. Ignoring PBtE, I don't think ubiquity and power level are enough to keep it banned, should the RC ever decide that PBtE is not a factor.
That is pretty bull***** but I am still not firmly behind either needing to be banned.
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Why is this a concern? The type of player that would do that clearly isn't the type of player that the RC wants to balance the format for. They've routinely stated that they don't balanced based on competitive value, or deliberate troublemakers, because their vision of the format excludes those players. They want to create a format where that sort of action is looked down on, but not banned, and the banlist is used to keep cards that accidentally ruin games out. If, in a painter's servant enabled format, a player were to T+N for the lockout, the proper solution would be the social contract, not the global banlist. So I don't get why in our format, Iona+PS is a problem.
Iona on her own seems more concerning to me going by the RC's banning criteria. It can and is used to accidentally lock people out of games (Player X is winning with a G/B deck, player Y needs to cast Iona to keep him in check, naming B to prevent some dastardly spell. Player Z with his innocuous mono black deck is now completely locked out).
Iona makes me think of some awesome action figure that has separate parts. It's huge, and cool, but it also has small bits that are choking hazards. Every now and then some toddler* plays with it, thinking it's great fun, and then chokes to death on the small bits that they stuck in their mouth. In the past, the RC has banned similar toys. Sundering Titan was banned because it could accidentally single out one player and punish them for basics. Primeval Titan was banned because people couldn't help themselves around it and always cloned/briberied/blinked, etc it. Sylvan Primordial banned because it was the next best titan. Meanwhile, Hermit Druid is unbanned because it can be used fairly without busting the game open. The fair use of Iona can still accidentally (and often does) lock non threatening players out of the game. Competitively, Iona could see use as a pretty solid lock out combo with Servant (what important person cares about competitive EDH though?), but casually all it can really do is hurt feelings occasionally.
Meanwhile, Servant is a card that belongs in the format. It's got a cool effect, that has interactions with tons of other cards, some crazy, some really really good. It can be used meanly, but only on purpose: it's always a deliberate decision to include things like All is Dust in a deck if you're running Painter's Servant. The RC isn't concerned with deliberate troublemakers (the bullies in the playpen so to speak). Painter's Servant is a card that lets the super johnnies have fun. They can build their incredibly complicated death traps with it. Let the Johnnies have more fun. Unban Servant.
*I don't actually think casual players are toddlers, but sometimes that's how the RC comes across as thinking to me.
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StaffThis is why Primetime, Sylvan, Sundering Titan, and Griselbrand aren't okay, yet Consecrated Sphinx, Prophet, Deadeye Navigator, and Jin Gitaxias are.
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True, but that logic applies to Iona regardless of whether painter's servant is in the format.
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StaffRight, but the presence of Iona + Servant allows for the possibility of both entering at the same time (even inadvertently from two different decks, via Living Death or Warp World or something), which can then no longer be interacted with with spot removal.
I think the unspoken issue with the Servant though is that a lot of older cards are just miserable to play with him. Lifeforce, Deathgrip, Tidal Control, etc, these are the kind of things that can commonly be seen tag-teaming with him.
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True, but for the same reason Hermit Druid is still around, that shouldn't matter. You have to go way out of your way to make servant miserable. Because those cards are almost universally terrible without him. I think you'd mostly see people doing cute things with it, like using it in an 8.5 tails deck.
I think an important difference in this case though is that with Painter's Servant, you have a card that looks like it could be used fairly, but for every deck using the servant with Crusade, there will be more decks using it with colour-hosing cards. This is why cards like Protean Hulk and Tinker are banned. Sure, you could play them fairly, but as time goes on, more and more people are drawn into playing them in an unfair manner and the card even encourages that sort of play because of how easy it is.
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StaffI mean, I think Hulk is a fine unban as well.
Tinker, not so much, because it breaks the "too much mana too quickly" rule. Being able to get a 12-mana artifact out on turn two (without even having to DRAW said artifact) is just a weeee bit bonkers.
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I always thought of it like a parent telling a child they can only buy one toy at the toy store. You can have Painter's Servant or you can have Iona, but you can't have both. Painter's Servant is just easier to abuse, so it got banned. Having played with and against Iona, I'd say that she's completely fair. Annoying? Absolutely. Abusive? Almost. She's just a big dumb creature with no protection that has a gross ability. I find that in casual games she gets hated out fast for being such a big threat and that in competitive games she's probably not going to resolve or else is going to eat a StP or pongify or something. Sure, there are various ways to protect her or flicker her for abuse, but by and large any instant speed removal or board wipe is going to work (especially if more than one player wants her off the board).
Alright, let's see, what did Riven not cover...
First off, Riven says it's "Not even close to extra turns. Period." He's half right there. You still get a big chunk of an untap step and get to cast about half of the cards that are likely to be in your deck - probably more if you play Prophet right - during your opponent's turns. While this doesn't exactly amount to extra turns, it does a fine impression of doing a missed-land-drop turn in many a well-built deck.
He also considers PoK no more warping than Vorinclex, Jin-Gitaxias and Sphinx. So he's no more warping than a 8 mana card, a 10 mana card and a card that usually amounts to a Recurring Insight...right. No. While it's true Prophet does not generate CARD advantage on its own, it certainly creates mana advantage. This is something it's older cousin Seedborn Muse also does. Unlike Seedborn Muse though, Prophet also gives you a great opportunity to use that mana during opponent's turn aside from activated abilities/instants and the likes. As far as comparing it to 'Clex and Jin goes...let's go with Vorinclex first, shall we? Vorinclex gives you x2 mana and your opponents x0.5. Powerful effect, yes. Prophet gives you up to x3 mana though (Presuming 3 opponents). While she doesn't untap artifacts, you still can get 20 mana a turn cycle - and that's if you drop her turn 5 without ramp. Store that mana in a Kruphix or Omnath and voila. Vorinclex does come with a beefy body but that's not why you play him. As for Jin Gitaxias...yes he's more impacting, BUT does cost 10 mana, has a very weak body for its mana cost and doesn't generate you the mana to use its cards. Not saying it's a poor card, it's hardly without faults though.
So, having looked at his main points, let's see what he didn't address.
- The fact that games screech down to a grinding halt, centralized around Prophet's controller.
This is a simple truth unless someone can remove it immediately. Turns will centralize around the PoK player looking for their permission to do ANYTHING, the PoK player flashing in stuff on endsteps, etc etc.
- The fact that PoK is more of a glue type of card, rather than an immediate impact card.
Most of the banlist cards are cards that have an immediate huge impact. This includes the likes of Sylvan Primordial, Griselbrand, Emrakul, Channel, Biorhytm, Worldfire...you name it. There are however a few pieces on there that don't do anything without something else to either abuse what they do, or need other pieces to even work. Examples here include Protean Hulk, Recurring Nightmare and Painter's Servant. Prophet kind of falls into the latter catagory. It doesn't immediately have a huge crashing impact on the game, but it enables the kind of plays that will work towards said ending much faster than is often desired. Due to it's colour combination, decks around it are easily built to gain huge advantage from the ability. Seedborn Muse is already a great card for those decks, giving creatures flash while taking away the untap-artifacts ability makes it go crazy.
- Prophet's effect on more kitchentable EDH.
This point is a bit more abstract, perhaps. But the thing is that the RC clearly does not ban for "hyper competitive" lists and playgroups, as is evident by their refusal to ban Hermit Druid/Ad Nauseam. Prophet perhaps doesn't do much in a world where every deck packs 10 1/2/3 mana instant-speed spot removal cards. But most metas aren't like that. Prophet becomes much better the lower the power level of tables are. While this is to an extent true for many cards, Prophet's power rating scales much faster depending the amount of immediate answers get played, and the lower you go, the lower that number is. Prophet-heavy decks, as far as I can see, fall right into the area which the RC SEEMS to base its banlist on.
The problem with Prophet is that unlike Sylvan Primordial or Griselbrand you can't just point at ONE thing and say "Yup, that's why it's banworthy". It's a whole scala of reasons, and if it had only one or two of those reasons, it wouldn't be banworthy. But it's the full package.
Yes, it's stronger to have Vedalken Orrery and Seedborn Muse out. But that's like complaining a Mwuonvoli Acid-Moss copied two times has the same effect as a Sylvan Primordial as far as I'm concerned. If two cards need to be combined to be a bit stronger than one card on it's own, that doesn't mean the two cards combined are broken.
I think cards like Deadeye and Prophet are the perfect EDH training wheels. They are both cards that have the potential to dramatically effect the game yet once you understand both they are both remarkably easy to shut down.
That's partially because there are a portion of players who don't properly understand the stack, and another portion of players who try to rush through priorities (in this case going from casting to resolution of the soulbond trigger without properly giving everyone time to respond).
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But isn't the reason that Protean Hulk is banned over T&N because the hulk is easier to tutor for/manipulate by green? Green decks can pretty much ensure that they get PoK whenever they want via many powerful tutors like Green Sun's Zenith, Chord of Calling, Worldly Tutor, and a bunch of good G/x and B tutors.
I just don't see how this is pok's fault in any way.
-How are games coming to a grinding halt? Banning pok wouldn't suddenly make slow players play the game faster. I've seen a person take multible wheels, timewalks and million copied mana geysers and still not get anything done.
-If pok is playing control and has mana open wouldn't you regardless ask his permission even if there was no pok on the field?
- Flashing in stuff at end step doesn't really take too long.
He's saying the games comes to a grinding halt because you must deal with the PoK immediately or it threatens take over the game when your opponent is resolving 4+ spells to everyone else's 1-2 spells. Essentially you switch to archenemy while it is out.
Sure but now it is
1. I have a mitt full of creatures & instants(probably at least 1 counter) & 1 tutor
2. I tutor for Prophet
3. If 2. did not put Prophet into play I cast Prophet
4. Prophet Resolves
5. I still have mana left to flash something in AND protect Prophet (if you don't have both then you just got a 2/3, or you just got one other creature in your hand and lost 2 other cards for it)
This is all the pieces around only your hand, this does not take into account the 3 other hands of cards and boards around the table. This is why PoK doesn't need to get banned it falls down way too easily.
In the odd case where someone gets the perfect set up and lands one then yes they deserve to win that game because they plays with their deck out played their opponents it is the same as setting up an artifact combo or anything else.
(I also think Protean probably doesn't need to be banned)
I think we're way, way past the stage of players not understanding the stack. Players who play against Deadeye and losing to it a few times is a good learning curve. Generally, Magic players are smart and they adapt fairly well. However, players who play Deadeye are smart too. They don't run it straight without having mana and/or some protection as backup. Let's not try to assume that playing against combo is a fair playing field. If Johnny wants to combo, he will do it as best as he can. It's up to people to cooperate. Or talk him out of it (assuming he's the one not in sync).
I'll just say that "responsible" EDH players will always play "responsibly". If you're the type of player who noticed an unintentional combo/interaction and feel bad about it, you fit that bill. It's a philosophy of playing. Just because a few combolicious cards being unbanned isn't gonna change the way you play, or more importantly, the group plays.
What I believe you're speaking about is FAD. Everyone loves to be trendy. But we know that you always revert to that worn-out jeans. I don't think we should be worry about things that last for the moment.
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Numbers 1 and 5 can pretty much be summed up by "don't play stupidly." The reality behind PoK is that the "perfect setup" is simply good cards: you need any of an interchangeable pile of draw spells and creatures. In the same way HD and AN are not banned due to their insane power being restricted to cutthroat uses, PoK has its gamebreaking power in the atmosphere that the RC professes to cultivate.
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StaffThe problem here may be more Sylvan and Hulk than Nightmare itself. How much graveyard removal does your cube run? Do people actually play it?
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It was more AoZ giving me constant fodder. SP only came out once towards the end, and PH gave me an E-Wit (getting back a Mana Drain) and Thassa. There is a bit of grave hate but I don't think people properly respect it yet. Scavenging Ooze was a last pick handed to me, for example.
To answer your real reply, I fully understand that cubing vs constructed is a whole different environment and you can't properly compare the two. However, when we're talking about a card like RN, which only has very specific types of answers, I think that the offset of more reliable answers would not make up for just how easy RN is to break. I've drafted it twice in the last two weeks and both times it was a strong card, regardless of the actual creatures being reanimated.
Library of Alexandria, on the other hand, is another card I've drafted twice and both times it was underwhelming. Last week I played it T1 and drew three cards before it ate a Strip Mine, and last night I got it out around T3, but by then my Exploration had done so much work that I couldn't draw off Library until much later when my Prime Speaker died to refill my hand. At that point I was able to constantly draw a card a turn cycle (go go go PoK), but even there it wasn't any better than Phyrexian Arena would have been. Ignoring PBtE, I don't think ubiquity and power level are enough to keep it banned, should the RC ever decide that PBtE is not a factor.
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