So Mana Crypt is about to suddenly see more copies in circulation. That might provide enough data to make a meaningful call on whether or not it is too good.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
They should not deviate. You don't change the game plan when you doing great just to do something different that might be terrible.
Generally speaking, you shouldn't base a decision around the possibility that it may not work. The status quote is not inherently better than any other option, but because it's passable. That's not to say that the can, should, or will change things up, but I'm not a fan of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
So Mana Crypt is about to suddenly see more copies in circulation. That might provide enough data to make a meaningful call on whether or not it is too good.
Crypt will be reprinted in EMA. There won't be a huge increase in supply, due to both the rarity and the limited availability of the product, but it may end up being more accessible for a time.
Serious question: If the ban list were 50, 100 or even 200 cards, what are the practical issues that would arise?
Are you a player who wants to know if a certain card is banned? Internet -> open page with ban list -> control F
It's been said that a long ban list is difficult to "maintain." What does that mean?
edit: unrelated but holy crap, if you think yawgmoth's bargain is stronger than necropotence, YOU ARE SAYING A 6 MANA SPELL IS STRONGER THAN AN EXTREMELY SIMILAR 3 MANA SPELL. I know EDH is the battlecruiser format but if you're trying to discuss the card's POWER, the difference between a 3 drop and 6 drop is VAST. Magic 101?
I should at least be seeing people arguing about how much the triple black cost of Necropotence matters. But if you're building to win, and have all the best mana sources, it doesn't matter a whole lot.
Remember prismatic? That was a cool format that had a banlist the size of the moon. Here's the reason EDH is so popular and why it will remain popular. You can play a lot of cards that are busted OP. There. I said it. No one plays this format for fairness. They play this format for cards like sol ring, tooth and nail, demonic tutor, and mana drain. This format is basically vintage less the power 9 and consistency. As this format is multiplayer, you can have a tuned out deck with all the dual lands, but still get cluster bunked by the table.
Also, necropotence has a high chance of getting you blown out without any benefit. It's weaker by miles unless the table lets you do your thing.
You have a very biased picture of the format.
The number of players that play EDH to play cards worth over $100 a piece is very small.
My bad on the mana drain. I haven't checked the price on that in 15 years... wow. The rest I stand by.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
So Mana Crypt is about to suddenly see more copies in circulation. That might provide enough data to make a meaningful call on whether or not it is too good.
All this means is a million EDH games worldwide that could have been fun will be ruined by mana crypt -> more ramp -> lol i'm so far ahead gg while the RC continues to do nothing
If it becomes popular enough, a lot of the "niche" control cards we're so loathe to run might no longer become niche but make in roads into the meta. That would mean a movement away from NWO ETB: the gathering some of us have been lamenting, since those cards are often too bulky to compete with this. In their stead we might welcome some of the cheaper hate and stax options to more readily shut down artifact ramp. One-drop-hate becomes good again.
Also, you'll usually hold on to Mana Crypt until the turn you plan to do something big with it, kind of like a ritual. So it's more, ramp -> suddenly mana crypt -> 'Lolzilek.' It's free so unless you need the acceleration immediately there's no reason to risk taking three damage a turn.
1: There is no answer that is actually efficient to deal with mana crypt. It's +2 mana and a 1 for 1 card trade if you answer it with a single target removal.
2: You don't tend to hold back mana crypt. You cast it the turn you can make use of the mana, which is usually the first turn.
Hopefully this mana crypt reprint will make people see sol ring/mana crypt for the cancer that they are and finally have them get the axe.
So Mana Crypt is about to suddenly see more copies in circulation. That might provide enough data to make a meaningful call on whether or not it is too good.
All this means is a million EDH games worldwide that could have been fun will be ruined by mana crypt -> more ramp -> lol i'm so far ahead gg while the RC continues to do nothing
If it becomes popular enough, a lot of the "niche" control cards we're so loathe to run might no longer become niche but make in roads into the meta. That would mean a movement away from NWO ETB: the gathering some of us have been lamenting, since those cards are often too bulky to compete with this. In their stead we might welcome some of the cheaper hate and stax options to more readily shut down artifact ramp. One-drop-hate becomes good again.
Also, you'll usually hold on to Mana Crypt until the turn you plan to do something big with it, kind of like a ritual. So it's more, ramp -> suddenly mana crypt -> 'Lolzilek.' It's free so unless you need the acceleration immediately there's no reason to risk taking three damage a turn.
1: There is no answer that is actually efficient to deal with mana crypt. It's +2 mana and a 1 for 1 card trade if you answer it with a single target removal.
2: You don't tend to hold back mana crypt. You cast it the turn you can make use of the mana, which is usually the first turn.
Hopefully this mana crypt reprint will make people see sol ring/mana crypt for the cancer that they are and finally have them get the axe.
At this point I feel like sol ring will never leave because it's a flag ship card of the format. "edh is fun! you can run sol ring!!!" I hear that a lot.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
As do dozens of cards. Are we banning them all now?
Isn't that the purpose of this thread? If I observe a strong, statistical correlation between a turn 1-3 Mystic Remora and game win % based on my hundreds of EDH games isn't it reasonable for me to question its role in the format?
Isn't that the purpose of this thread? If I observe a strong, statistical correlation between a turn 1-3 Mystic Remora and game win % based on my hundreds of EDH games isn't it reasonable for me to question its role in the format?
Not when you are a self-described cEDH player. That would invalidate the points you would make based on that data due to the known ban list criteria.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Isn't that the purpose of this thread? If I observe a strong, statistical correlation between a turn 1-3 Mystic Remora and game win % based on my hundreds of EDH games isn't it reasonable for me to question its role in the format?
Not when you are a self-described cEDH player. That would invalidate the points you would make based on that data due to the known ban list criteria.
We are down to the Ad Hominem again - "Your points about the health of the format must be invalid, because your experience as a self-styled 'competitive' is tainted."
If you follow that precept, wouldn't you basically be able to invalidate any point anyone makes about the list, just by saying that you don't resonate with their experience?
1: There is no (non-Mental Misstep) answer that is actually efficient to deal with mana crypt. It's +2 mana and a 1 for 1 card trade if you answer it with a single target removal.
(Friendly jab, I'm not actually trying to discredit your correct point)
We are down to the Ad Hominem again - "Your points about the health of the format must be invalid, because your experience as a self-styled 'competitive' is tainted."
If you follow that precept, wouldn't you basically be able to invalidate any point anyone makes about the list, just by saying that you don't resonate with their experience?
It isn't that their points are invalid, it's that the majority of players for whom the format is designed for don't approach the game from the same mindset, experience the same kinds of games, or have troubles with the same cards as self-described "cEDH" players do. And this is a two way street, which you'll know for the number of players who mocked a PoK or Prime Time ban.
If we're playing flag football, do you think we really need the same level of protective equipment that NFL players need? What do you think our response would be if you, as a team doctor for the NFL came to us and told us how we should be wearing a helmet for our own safety?
It literally is not. I am talking about the win percentage being a factor. Casual people probably don't factor in with win percentage, but we know for sure competitive people don't. It's an axiom of the ban list, you could call it appeal to authority, and that might have some merit. It certainly has nothing to do with him/her personally.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I think going back to my last book of a post (so no one has to read), there's a small question that comes of it: What do we do with this format for all these other EDH players the RC doesn't cater too? Commander has grown this format and the RC list is not as inclusive as it once was. It's not just cEDH...I think the whole new base of players doesn't conform well to the current list. There needs to be consideration for those players. Where's that ban list?
I think going back to my last book of a post (so no one has to read), there's a small question that comes of it: What do we do with this format for all these other EDH players the RC doesn't cater too? Commander has grown this format and the RC list is not as inclusive as it once was. It's not just cEDH...I think the whole new base of players doesn't conform well to the current list. There needs to be consideration for those players. Where's that ban list?
You know, if we do end up making a rules subforum, why don't you start a poll/thread for trying to create a balanced competitive ban list? We'll (the mods) help out however we can, if you want.
I think going back to my last book of a post (so no one has to read), there's a small question that comes of it: What do we do with this format for all these other EDH players the RC doesn't cater too? Commander has grown this format and the RC list is not as inclusive as it once was. It's not just cEDH...I think the whole new base of players doesn't conform well to the current list.
What is it about the format you feel they don't conform to?
There needs to be consideration for those players.
I don't mean to be rude, but why? If they choose to play a game and format with known rules and direction, why is it a requirement that the format change to accommodate them?
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I think going back to my last book of a post (so no one has to read), there's a small question that comes of it: What do we do with this format for all these other EDH players the RC doesn't cater too? Commander has grown this format and the RC list is not as inclusive as it once was. It's not just cEDH...I think the whole new base of players doesn't conform well to the current list. There needs to be consideration for those players. Where's that ban list?
You know, if we do end up making a rules subforum, why don't you start a poll/thread for trying to create a balanced competitive ban list? We'll (the mods) help out however we can, if you want.
Honestly that would be phenomenal. I just didn't want to be an island on this idea, but I'm falling more in line with understanding what the RC wants (and there's nothing wrong with that). I think I'll do that if it will be supported enough to give it a chance. I'll start a thread to establish the idea and philosophy. Thanks.
Honestly that would be phenomenal. I just didn't want to be an island on this idea, but I'm falling more in line with understanding what the RC wants (and there's nothing wrong with that). I think I'll do that if it will be supported enough to give it a chance. I'll start a thread to establish the idea and philosophy. Thanks.
People are going to be naysayers and tell you that it's a waste of time and it's been attempted before. And they're right, it has been attempted before a couple of times. It may not go anywhere, but there's a couple of people who are active in this thread who claim to be part of a large competitive metagame. So if this is something you want strongly, no one will stop you from giving it a shot. If you guys can get past the biggest hurdle of trying to get your playgroups to at least experiment with an alternative ban list, you can start getting real feedback from real players. I can promise you that other than having to moderate the thread for rules infractions, you'll have the support of the moderators to work on the thread.
If they choose to play a game and format with known rules and direction, why is it a requirement that the format change to accommodate them?
Why is everything so black-and-white with you? This is the thread for discussing the EDH banned list is it not? When I play in my cEDH leagues some cards such as Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Carpet of Flowers and Mystic Remora boast absurd win %s. I'm not trying to "force" anyone or anything to conform with my points of view. Rather, I'm discussing the cards that I feel are problematic in the format and why I feel that they lead to unhealthy games in which very little Magic is played by anyone other than the people who curve out with 0-1 CMC bombs. I feel that I'm forced to play and mulligan for these kinds of cards in 100% of my decks and enact combo-based win conditions such as Necrotic Ooze and Ad Nauseam that can defeat any number of players on turn 5 or so (you can goldfish faster but you generally want to combo-off with protection). This is the thread that the mods have designated for us to discuss the B&R list and I'm voicing my concern over cards that boast absurdly high win %s. If you feel that my opinions are invalid because I play to win, that's your prerogative, but I don't think that it's fair to inherently ignore everything that I say or think because you don't fully agree with it. Like it or not cEDH is played using the "official" EDH banned/restricted list and if I'm unhappy with certain cards in the format this is realistically the only place for me to voice my concerns. You can dismiss my ideas for any number of reasons but "you're not a person who matters" isn't a healthy way to engage a dialogue with someone. Having a 5 CMC instant that can literally draw your entire deck (or the vast majority of it, depends on your build) is significantly more problematic than most of the other cards on the B&R list and if the only reason why Ad Nauseam isn't banned is because no one in the RC games plays it that doesn't sit well with me. I can't force the world to adhere to my every whim but I think that I'm well within my rights to say "hey, I don't agree with this." That doesn't seem wildly unreasonable to me.
Since the views of what EDH means to you are entirely subjective, and what we want from the banlist is also just as subjective, and since no hard data may be used since tournament performance is not taken into account, doesn't that mean that this thread is a colossal waste of everyone's time?
There are no merits of actual gameplay to be argued anymore. The last 10 pages have mostly been "my personal philosophy and group style" and those ships ramming into each other. I understand Sheldon and company read this thread and even post here, but I honestly doubt they give a rat's squeaky fart about any of these personal posts.
So I really don't understand what the point is any further.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Since the views of what EDH means to you are entirely subjective, and what we want from the banlist is also just as subjective, and since no hard data may be used since tournament performance is not taken into account, doesn't that mean that this thread is a colossal waste of everyone's time?
There are no merits of actual gameplay to be argued anymore. The last 10 pages have mostly been "my personal philosophy and group style" and those ships ramming into each other. I understand Sheldon and company read this thread and even post here, but I honestly doubt they give a rat's squeaky fart about any of these personal posts.
So I really don't understand what the point is any further.
That is my problem with the banlist.
"Everyone has a different idea of what edh should be"
"But here's a list of cards that you can't play with hahahahahaha"
That's why I want, at the very least, the cards that are on the list exclusively because they are strong to come off.
It's not unreasonable to voice your disagreements, but you understand that "I feel that I'm forced to play and mulligan for these kinds of cards in 100% of my decks and enact combo-based win conditions such as Necrotic Ooze and Ad Nauseam that can defeat any number of players on turn 5 or so" isn't a statement that the Rules Committee nor the general public build decks for, right? I have never played in a group where I felt that my only chance at winning was to build a deck that was closer to Vintage than casual.
Think of it like other Constructed formats. You have a baseline "here's what the format is and the rules", but by Wizards promoting those formats using competitive events, they've asserted that their goal is to determine who is the best at that format. You don't have to play competitively if you don't want to, but you might have to work harder to find a player or group of players who aren't playing competitively either. Likewise, the Rules Committee have been quite vocal over the years to push out their message that the format isn't meant to be competitive. That doesn't mean that you can't play competitively, but when you play in a manner that does not align with how they intended it to be, the responsibility is not on them to make accommodations for everyone (just as Wizards shouldn't have to accommodate someone who wants to play casual Legacy).
Since the views of what EDH means to you are entirely subjective, and what we want from the banlist is also just as subjective, and since no hard data may be used since tournament performance is not taken into account, doesn't that mean that this thread is a colossal waste of everyone's time?
Not at all. This thread and others like it on other sites have been influential in the ban list changing. Trade Secrets, Kuko, Metalworker, Prime Time, Sundering Titan, Staff of Domination, Prophet ... all have come up and the status has changed. Of course its not all us or anything like it, but these voices do matter when they provide good reasoning and persistence.
I have no doubt, those cards are cheap (CMC wise) and broken, but that's not new information.
I'm not trying to "force" anyone or anything to conform with my points of view. Rather, I'm discussing the cards that I feel are problematic in the format and why I feel that they lead to unhealthy games in which very little Magic is played by anyone other than the people who curve out with 0-1 CMC bombs.
But don't you feel the meta is the larger factor than the cards chosen? Have you seen those cards played in a slower meta?
I feel that I'm forced to play and mulligan for these kinds of cards in 100% of my decks and enact combo-based win conditions such as Necrotic Ooze and Ad Nauseam that can defeat any number of players on turn 5 or so (you can goldfish faster but you generically want to combo-off with protection).
Why choose to play games like that when you feel so forced into answers?
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
If they choose to play a game and format with known rules and direction, why is it a requirement that the format change to accommodate them?
Why is everything so black-and-white with you? This is the thread for discussing the EDH banned list is it not? When I play in my cEDH leagues some cards such as Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Carpet of Flowers and Mystic Remora boast absurd win %s. I'm not trying to "force" anyone or anything to conform with my points of view. Rather, I'm discussing the cards that I feel are problematic in the format and why I feel that they lead to unhealthy games in which very little Magic is played by anyone other than the people who curve out with 0-1 CMC bombs. I feel that I'm forced to play and mulligan for these kinds of cards in 100% of my decks and enact combo-based win conditions such as Necrotic Ooze and Ad Nauseam that can defeat any number of players on turn 5 or so (you can goldfish faster but you generically want to combo-off with protection). This is the thread that the mods have designated for us to discuss the B&R list and I'm voicing my concern over cards that boast absurdly high win %s. If you feel that my opinions are invalid because I play to win, that's your prerogative, but I don't think that it's fair to inherently ignore everything that I say or think because you don't fully agree with it. Like it or not cEDH is played using the "official" EDH banned/restricted list and if I'm unhappy with certain cards in the format this is realistically the only place for me to voice my concerns. You can dismiss my ideas for any number of reasons but "you're not a person who matters" isn't a healthy way to engage a dialogue with someone. Having a 5 CMC instant that can literally draw your entire deck (or the vast majority of it, depends on your build) is significantly more problematic than most of the other cards on the B&R list and if the only reason why Ad Nauseam isn't banned is because no one in the RC games plays it that doesn't sit well with me. I can't force the world to adhere to my every whim but I think that I'm well within my rights to say "hey, I don't agree with this." That doesn't seem wildly unreasonable to me.
Instead of continuing to assert that the format should change for you, why don't you take part in Droptimal's project?
The reality is, the best way competitive EDH players can get their concerns addressed is to create a variant format with a banned list reflecting their concerns. There are some very smart, competitively-minded EDH players here who could probably do a lot of good toward getting a format here off the ground.
And btw, there is nothing invalid to noting that the concerns of competitive EDH players are different than those of the majority of the format's players, and that this difference is enough that yes, it largely does invalidate their concerns. And before Jusstice or someone else tosses in the BS about how EDH is Magic so it's all competitive because winning is a goal, I'll just state upfront my definition of "competitive" when applied to EDH, i.e., when your primary concern is playing to win, that would put you in the competitive end of the spectrum. If you are doing things like computing win percentages, you are *way* over on that end. And again, there's nothing wrong with that. It simply isn't what EDH was designed to be, and it isn't what the RC and most of the playerbase wants the format to be about.
I think going back to my last book of a post (so no one has to read), there's a small question that comes of it: What do we do with this format for all these other EDH players the RC doesn't cater too? Commander has grown this format and the RC list is not as inclusive as it once was. It's not just cEDH...I think the whole new base of players doesn't conform well to the current list. There needs to be consideration for those players. Where's that ban list?
You know, if we do end up making a rules subforum, why don't you start a poll/thread for trying to create a balanced competitive ban list? We'll (the mods) help out however we can, if you want.
Honestly that would be phenomenal. I just didn't want to be an island on this idea, but I'm falling more in line with understanding what the RC wants (and there's nothing wrong with that). I think I'll do that if it will be supported enough to give it a chance. I'll start a thread to establish the idea and philosophy. Thanks.
I commend you for taking this on, and wish you success in the endeavor.
They should not deviate. You don't change the game plan when you doing great just to do something different that might be terrible.Link please.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/702979-mana-crypt
Crypt will be reprinted in EMA. There won't be a huge increase in supply, due to both the rarity and the limited availability of the product, but it may end up being more accessible for a time.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
My bad on the mana drain. I haven't checked the price on that in 15 years... wow. The rest I stand by.
1: There is no answer that is actually efficient to deal with mana crypt. It's +2 mana and a 1 for 1 card trade if you answer it with a single target removal.
2: You don't tend to hold back mana crypt. You cast it the turn you can make use of the mana, which is usually the first turn.
Hopefully this mana crypt reprint will make people see sol ring/mana crypt for the cancer that they are and finally have them get the axe.
At this point I feel like sol ring will never leave because it's a flag ship card of the format. "edh is fun! you can run sol ring!!!" I hear that a lot.
Isn't that the purpose of this thread? If I observe a strong, statistical correlation between a turn 1-3 Mystic Remora and game win % based on my hundreds of EDH games isn't it reasonable for me to question its role in the format?
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
We are down to the Ad Hominem again - "Your points about the health of the format must be invalid, because your experience as a self-styled 'competitive' is tainted."
If you follow that precept, wouldn't you basically be able to invalidate any point anyone makes about the list, just by saying that you don't resonate with their experience?
(Friendly jab, I'm not actually trying to discredit your correct point)
It isn't that their points are invalid, it's that the majority of players for whom the format is designed for don't approach the game from the same mindset, experience the same kinds of games, or have troubles with the same cards as self-described "cEDH" players do. And this is a two way street, which you'll know for the number of players who mocked a PoK or Prime Time ban.
If we're playing flag football, do you think we really need the same level of protective equipment that NFL players need? What do you think our response would be if you, as a team doctor for the NFL came to us and told us how we should be wearing a helmet for our own safety?
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Reading fail! I've always thought it was CMC 1 or less.
You know, if we do end up making a rules subforum, why don't you start a poll/thread for trying to create a balanced competitive ban list? We'll (the mods) help out however we can, if you want.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
People are going to be naysayers and tell you that it's a waste of time and it's been attempted before. And they're right, it has been attempted before a couple of times. It may not go anywhere, but there's a couple of people who are active in this thread who claim to be part of a large competitive metagame. So if this is something you want strongly, no one will stop you from giving it a shot. If you guys can get past the biggest hurdle of trying to get your playgroups to at least experiment with an alternative ban list, you can start getting real feedback from real players. I can promise you that other than having to moderate the thread for rules infractions, you'll have the support of the moderators to work on the thread.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Why is everything so black-and-white with you? This is the thread for discussing the EDH banned list is it not? When I play in my cEDH leagues some cards such as Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Carpet of Flowers and Mystic Remora boast absurd win %s. I'm not trying to "force" anyone or anything to conform with my points of view. Rather, I'm discussing the cards that I feel are problematic in the format and why I feel that they lead to unhealthy games in which very little Magic is played by anyone other than the people who curve out with 0-1 CMC bombs. I feel that I'm forced to play and mulligan for these kinds of cards in 100% of my decks and enact combo-based win conditions such as Necrotic Ooze and Ad Nauseam that can defeat any number of players on turn 5 or so (you can goldfish faster but you generally want to combo-off with protection). This is the thread that the mods have designated for us to discuss the B&R list and I'm voicing my concern over cards that boast absurdly high win %s. If you feel that my opinions are invalid because I play to win, that's your prerogative, but I don't think that it's fair to inherently ignore everything that I say or think because you don't fully agree with it. Like it or not cEDH is played using the "official" EDH banned/restricted list and if I'm unhappy with certain cards in the format this is realistically the only place for me to voice my concerns. You can dismiss my ideas for any number of reasons but "you're not a person who matters" isn't a healthy way to engage a dialogue with someone. Having a 5 CMC instant that can literally draw your entire deck (or the vast majority of it, depends on your build) is significantly more problematic than most of the other cards on the B&R list and if the only reason why Ad Nauseam isn't banned is because no one in the RC games plays it that doesn't sit well with me. I can't force the world to adhere to my every whim but I think that I'm well within my rights to say "hey, I don't agree with this." That doesn't seem wildly unreasonable to me.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Since the views of what EDH means to you are entirely subjective, and what we want from the banlist is also just as subjective, and since no hard data may be used since tournament performance is not taken into account, doesn't that mean that this thread is a colossal waste of everyone's time?
There are no merits of actual gameplay to be argued anymore. The last 10 pages have mostly been "my personal philosophy and group style" and those ships ramming into each other. I understand Sheldon and company read this thread and even post here, but I honestly doubt they give a rat's squeaky fart about any of these personal posts.
So I really don't understand what the point is any further.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
That is my problem with the banlist.
"Everyone has a different idea of what edh should be"
"But here's a list of cards that you can't play with hahahahahaha"
That's why I want, at the very least, the cards that are on the list exclusively because they are strong to come off.
No one is running tinker to do fair things.
Think of it like other Constructed formats. You have a baseline "here's what the format is and the rules", but by Wizards promoting those formats using competitive events, they've asserted that their goal is to determine who is the best at that format. You don't have to play competitively if you don't want to, but you might have to work harder to find a player or group of players who aren't playing competitively either. Likewise, the Rules Committee have been quite vocal over the years to push out their message that the format isn't meant to be competitive. That doesn't mean that you can't play competitively, but when you play in a manner that does not align with how they intended it to be, the responsibility is not on them to make accommodations for everyone (just as Wizards shouldn't have to accommodate someone who wants to play casual Legacy).
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
It is really not, I am all about the middle grey. I don't want to win/lose t3 and I don't want to durdle with bird tribal for 30 turns. The OFFICIAL list which has known criteria. Pointing out the criteria is not 'being black and white'. I have no doubt, those cards are cheap (CMC wise) and broken, but that's not new information. But don't you feel the meta is the larger factor than the cards chosen? Have you seen those cards played in a slower meta? Why choose to play games like that when you feel so forced into answers?
Instead of continuing to assert that the format should change for you, why don't you take part in Droptimal's project?
The reality is, the best way competitive EDH players can get their concerns addressed is to create a variant format with a banned list reflecting their concerns. There are some very smart, competitively-minded EDH players here who could probably do a lot of good toward getting a format here off the ground.
And btw, there is nothing invalid to noting that the concerns of competitive EDH players are different than those of the majority of the format's players, and that this difference is enough that yes, it largely does invalidate their concerns. And before Jusstice or someone else tosses in the BS about how EDH is Magic so it's all competitive because winning is a goal, I'll just state upfront my definition of "competitive" when applied to EDH, i.e., when your primary concern is playing to win, that would put you in the competitive end of the spectrum. If you are doing things like computing win percentages, you are *way* over on that end. And again, there's nothing wrong with that. It simply isn't what EDH was designed to be, and it isn't what the RC and most of the playerbase wants the format to be about.
I commend you for taking this on, and wish you success in the endeavor.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
This is 100% correct, with no apologies.