I think the fact that they had only 3 creatures on the list is why it was cut. Same reason they don't make special rules to make the myojin or haakon, stromgald scourge function "properly" - adding the rule would be extra baggage that isn't worth the effort to salvage just a few cards. Having banned-as-a-commander wasn't worth having a rule for, just to keep those 3 cards semi-legal. And anyway, despite being less broken when you can't get them reliably, braids and erayo aren't the sort of cards the RC likes, and rofellos is a pretty absurd ramper nearly equivalent to another sol ring for mono-green. Did they need banning? No, but I don't think the format is much worse without them, even if I did use them in some of my decks from time to time, and keeping the rules simple is a positive.
There's a marked difference between changing the playability of a card based on its rules text and outright banning otherwise VERY playable cards for no reason other than "simplification" when it was already pretty darn simple...
While the banned as a commander removal is a little weird, I can't cry too many tears over it. Braids and Erayo certainly are annoying cards anyway. (they're on my most hated list along with cards like Storm Cauldron that while I wouldn't advocate for being banned, I could go the rest of my life never seeing again and not miss one ounce) I'm a little sad about Rofellos, but he does make a pretty absurd amount of mana if he makes it a turn.
Regarding Prophet, I'm not salty against it because only one casual player in my group plays it. That said, the card has to be respected even in his deck and i can easily imagine people breaking the card if they're willing to so I wouldn't be surprised or mad if it were banned.
I guess it has been discussed before but no way I'm surfing 900+ pages, so I ask why the following cards haven't been banned especially because other contemporary cards were banned without hesitation:
Consecrated Sphinx. Relatively contemporary to Primeval Titan and older than Griselbrand, still legal to this day. With the prevalence of clones it has the same collusion issue as Trade Secrets and unless it is removed on the spot, it tends to create an unsurmountablea advantage for its player (same than Primeval).
Omniscience. On the same set as Worldfire. Wins the game on the spot with a lot of other cards. Obliterate is the usual suspect but cards like Time Stretch or Enter the Infinite are also saucy and any tutor in hand can search them for free. Can be cheated via Academy Rector or Show and Tell; the ten mana cost isn't an argument given that it also applies to Worldfire.
Cyclonic Rift. Contemporaty of Sylvan Primordial. For a lot of purposes it is an instant speed Plague Wind for every nonland permanent. EoT Cyclonic Rift, Geddon is an easy win and like Worldfire, it is hard to prepare around it barring some narrow cards like Ghostway or leave play triggers like Thragtusk. For combo decks it is ideal to deal with hate: you can sweep a Gaddock Teeg, a Stranglehold and a Humility with a single card at instant speed and go nuts. The best way to keep it on check is with cards like City of Solitude, which are the exact cards the combo player wants to see.
Regarding Prophet, I'm not salty against it because only one casual player in my group plays it. That said, the card has to be respected even in his deck and i can easily imagine people breaking the card if they're willing to so I wouldn't be surprised or mad if it were banned.
I guess it has been discussed before but no way I'm surfing 900+ pages, so I ask why the following cards haven't been banned especially because other contemporary cards were banned without hesitation:
Consecrated Sphinx. Relatively contemporary to Primeval Titan and older than Griselbrand, still legal to this day. With the prevalence of clones it has the same collusion issue as Trade Secrets and unless it is removed on the spot, it tends to create an unsurmountablea advantage for its player (same than Primeval).
Omniscience. On the same set as Worldfire. Wins the game on the spot with a lot of other cards. Obliterate is the usual suspect but cards like Time Stretch or Enter the Infinite are also saucy and any tutor in hand can search them for free. Can be cheated via Academy Rector or Show and Tell; the ten mana cost isn't an argument given that it also applies to Worldfire.
Cyclonic Rift. Contemporaty of Sylvan Primordial. For a lot of purposes it is an instant speed Plague Wind for every nonland permanent. EoT Cyclonic Rift, Geddon is an easy win and like Worldfire, it is hard to prepare around it barring some narrow cards like Ghostway or leave play triggers like Thragtusk. For combo decks it is ideal to deal with hate: you can sweep a Gaddock Teeg, a Stranglehold and a Humility with a single card at instant speed and go nuts. The best way to keep it on check is with cards like City of Solitude, which are the exact cards the combo player wants to see.
The Sphinx isn't banned for a number of reasons. First, Trade Secrets costs only 3 mana and then lets you and and an opponent draw out your decks, all by itself. Second, Sphinx costs 6, and doesn't draw 2 until your opponent's next draw step. Assuming you have 3 opponents, you draw 6 cards if he tables, which is pretty good, but not broken. He is also a creature, meaning he can be removed in a variety of ways more than a flat out counterspell and it takes a significant period of time before CS even reaches the levels of Trade Secrets in terms of card advantage for its controller. I don't really know what to say if it gets cloned other than that isn't a particular bannable offense. Yeah, you could theoretically draw out your decks, but at the same time, there are a whole lot of creatures that, when cloned, do pretty busted things. Long story short, it's a whole lot more difficult and situational for CS to be anywhere near the natural brokeness that was Trade Secrets.
Worldfire interacted poorly with the rules of the format. It was banned because you can float mana, cast Worldfire, play your commander, and win the game while your opponents can't do anything. The card was not designed with the ability to cast something after it resolved in mind. Omniscience is an obscenely expensive card that requires other cards to win. It doesn't interact with format rules poorly; it does exactly what it was designed to do. It is a bomb and what I would expect if I am paying 10 mana for a spell. You can cheat in creatures with Elvish Piper on Turn 3 with relative ease. Arguing that a spell can come down early hardly makes it banworthy, especially given that some of the combo decks in this format are even faster than that...
Cyclonic Rift is incredibly strong, don't get me wrong, but it is NOT an instant speed Plague Wind. Cards being returned to a player's hand are a far cry from being destroyed. Also, the only way it wins the game is if that player already had a winning board position. That means that it went all around the table without anyone answering the threat at hand. For 7 mana, I would expect something of roughly Cyclonic Rift's power level. Bear in mind that Evacuation does something similar, also at instant speed, but only costs 5 mana instead. I won't argue that Rift is pretty aggressively costed, but it by no means wins the game by itself. You win after resolving it if you already had a winning board state and, at that point, it makes it no different than resolving an Insurrection.
And for the record, something being printed in the same block does not make them comparable in the slightest to other cards that were from that block and were banned.
Consecrated Sphinx is not similar to Primeval Titan. Primeval Titan was banned because of the immediate value that was gotten from blinking, cloning, and reanimating it. It also generated even more value every turn it stayed on the field due to its attack trigger in addition to its ETB trigger and the fact it could get ANY two lands (Gaea's Cradle, Coffers/Urborg, etc and bring them in untapped was pretty busted). CS is more comparable to PoK in that they both generate advantages over time, but those advantages, for the most part, are purely time gated and do NOT give any advantage until your turn ends. If a threat of that nature stays on the field, it will eventually win the game. Rift, like CS, is nothing like its contemporary in Sylvan Primordial. I mean, they aren't even the same card type... Primordial was banned for roughly the same reason that PrimeTime was: too much advantage through reanimation, blink, and cloning. You would 8 for 1 the opponent every time one entered the battlefield. That is an insurmountable advantage, not bouncing permanents to hand.
There's a marked difference between changing the playability of a card based on its rules text and outright banning otherwise VERY playable cards for no reason other than "simplification" when it was already pretty darn simple...
If there had never been a "banned as a commander" list, you wouldn't even think twice about those cards being banned, I'd wager.
It's just 3 cards. Sure, I wish Braids was legal, but it's really not that big a deal.
It's equally not that big of a deal if they were still legal, which is why the change has one of the weakest rationales for it.
If they thought the cards were sooper toxic to the format and banned them because of that, I'd be fine with it, but that isn't the case. The cards are very unique, meaning that they are difficult to replace. I very much enjoy Rofellos in my Omnath list and have struggled to replace him to the point that I run him unless whoever I am playing with objects.
Being fair, if they were always banned I probably wouldn't think twice, but the fact that they were previously legal and all VERY unique cards that are now banned for "simplicity" seems like it takes away from the format rather than adding to it from a figurative standpoint, not just literally taking cards away.
DirkGently has it right. Making an additional rule for just a few cards doesn't make sense.
Agree with someone don't make him right and the "rule" was removed, not created. Without the option of "banned as commander" have increased the consideration of each legendary in a higher level because you have only two options, yes or no.
What's so troublesome to look at the new(10?) legendaries and see if they fit the criteria of "banned as commander"? Why are you so afraid of those three legendaries, terrors of ordinary players, in the middle of the 99 cards?
Have you ever played with stax? It's interesting I promise you.
Other than that, I want to say that you guys are doing a great job and I thank you for that.
DirkGently has it right. Making an additional rule for just a few cards doesn't make sense.
I know that Sheldon was talking about the banned as commander rule, but I can't help but think of the anti-wish rule when I read this. There are only 9 cards in all magic effected by that rule IIRC.
DirkGently has it right. Making an additional rule for just a few cards doesn't make sense.
I know that Sheldon was talking about the banned as commander rule, but I can't help but think of the anti-wish rule when I read this. There are only 9 cards in all magic effected by that rule IIRC.
FWIW, when I read that post I thought the poster was talking about the anti-Wish rule, and I agreed. Then I realized the poster was Sheldon. Then I realized he was talking about the Banned as a Commander rule.
Still agree, but the same logic applies to both cases.
FWIW, when I read that post I thought the poster was talking about the anti-Wish rule, and I agreed. Then I realized the poster was Sheldon. Then I realized he was talking about the Banned as a Commander rule.
Still agree, but the same logic applies to both cases.
Unfortunately, it doesn't. There has to be a wish rule, regardless of what the rule actually says, because the CR doesn't provide enough structure for casual play to implement wishes. We don't need 4 people sitting down with 4 different beliefs as to how wishes should work and then having to have an argument in the middle of play.
We set the default at zero so that people who want to play wishes have to discuss it with their playgroup and set appropriate boundaries. As I said on MTGCommander, we're happy to reword the rule if there are better suggestions, but not if it lets a player bully their way into their interpretation.
FWIW, when I read that post I thought the poster was talking about the anti-Wish rule, and I agreed. Then I realized the poster was Sheldon. Then I realized he was talking about the Banned as a Commander rule.
Still agree, but the same logic applies to both cases.
Unfortunately, it doesn't. There has to be a wish rule, regardless of what the rule actually says, because the CR doesn't provide enough structure for casual play to implement wishes. We don't need 4 people sitting down with 4 different beliefs as to how wishes should work and then having to have an argument in the middle of play.
We set the default at zero so that people who want to play wishes have to discuss it with their playgroup and set appropriate boundaries. As I said on MTGCommander, we're happy to reword the rule if there are better suggestions, but not if it lets a player bully their way into their interpretation.
Why not just ban the 9 cards in question? Let folks allow them in houserules if they like.
Why not just ban the 9 cards in question? Let folks allow them in houserules if they like.
Mostly because we don't want to ban them. We want to ban them from people who just want to show up and have them work how they want them to, but we're more than happy for a playgroup to set rules and make them work. Interestingly, experience has suggested that banning them is way more definitive than having a rule.
Like I said, the current rule may not be expressing that optimally, and we'll look at alternate wordings. But we do have to have something there.
Interesting to hear you say you consider a ban "definitive". It's essentially saying that you expect house-rule bans and unbans to carry only a limited amount of weight. Prior statements regarding the powerful cards left legal in the format seem to suggest the contrary, that you expect house rules to have to do a TON of work.
Evidently people are not mature enough to agree how wishes should work, but they're expected to use Vintage power cards responsibly.
As far as I'm aware, the CR only has 2 options for wishes.
1. Get any card you own from outside the game.
2. Only able to retrieve a sideboard card.
I am unfamiliar with any named format that allows players to use case 1 and wish from anywhere. Everything from Block to Vintage always plays a sideboard and wishes may only find cards in the board. The current wording of the EDH rules say that wishes may only retrieve sideboard cards.
Sideboards also solve every rules issue legal wishes could create; such as wishing for a banned card, a card not in the decks CI, or a 2nd copy of a card already in the main deck.
The problem appears to be that decks are not allowed to just play a sideboard via the formats rules.
The way I see things is that it is really just a difference of numbers between 'no sideboards allowed' and '10 card sideboards are allowed'
The current rule may as well be: "Wishes may only retrieve sideboard cards. You're maximum sideboard size is 0."
The house rule is exactly the same thing with the number changed: "Wishes may only retrieve sideboard cards. You're maximum sideboard size is 10."
Let's work our way up from 0, to get to 1: "Wishes may only retrieve sideboard cards. You're maximum sideboard size is 1."
With only a one card sideboard, if you played a wish it would only be able to get the same card every time. It would also be terribly inefficient because you'd need to pay the cost of the wish on top of the cost of the wish target. You're deck could be made more efficient by putting your single sideboard card main deck and removing the wish.
Nothing interesting happens till you reach 2 cards in a sideboard. At this point wishes are now able to choose one of two options. They essentially become a build your own split card.
At 3 cards, it's build your own charm.
At 4, it's Charm+1.
If it were up to me, I'd just say that EDH has an official sideboard size but they are only 2-4 cards. It lets wishes work and the number of cards in the sideboard is so small that problems with wish power level appear unlikely. Even if you let players swap arounds card pregame, only swapping 1-4 cards is far fewer then are usually swapped around in a 15 card sideboard format. It even gives the RC a lever to adjust wish power level as desired, because the sideboards maximum size can be increased or decreased in small increments until a good spot is reached.
Can someone go into detail why Griselbrand is banned? I know pay 7 life draw 7 cards is strong but I feel like there is enough answers for it not to be worthy of being banned.
Can someone go into detail why Griselbrand is banned? I know pay 7 life draw 7 cards is strong but I feel like there is enough answers for it not to be worthy of being banned.
Here you go, several reasons why Griselbrand was banned in Multiplayer.
Quote from BlackVise »
Necropotence doesn't give you the cards straight away, isn't reanimate-able (well, outside of W anyway ;)), isn't a 7/7 with flying and lifelink, and isn't permanently available by being in the command zone.
Griselbrand was my first proper EDH deck and it was incredible - you could easily ramp into him on turn three or four, draw a ton of cards and win on the spot. Even when running him as one of the 99, going Entomb -> reanimate spell for a turn two Griselbrand was very powerful and could win games easily.
Quote from Slarg »
Gris can three shot someone, allows you to draw 35 cards with little worry, life links, has evasion, and is in one of the best colors for Ramp/ THE best color for cheating things into play so his high cost is moot.
Quote from Veidimadurinn »
Not only could you pay seven life to draw seven cards, if you equipped him with lightning greaves you could also earn back the seven life you payed that same turn, plus he is effectively a three turn clock with evasion, plus you could easily cheat him into play. I seen a guy pay 14 life in one turn, discard 7 of the lands he drew, then swing with Griselbrand to regain 7 life.
Quote from Nodrog »
Let's you draw your deck and it's on a huge lifelinking stick with evasion. As a general, he's a 3 hit KO. Even in the 99, he's crazy good in reanimator. I had him briefly in a Teneb list and I would throw him in my graveyard and bring him back on the cheap every single game because he was that good. I could use him to dump all of my fatties into my graveyard and reanimate the board EOT with Twilight's Call. I sometimes did that as early as turn 5 and that's not even him at his most cutthroat.
The relevant part of all of this is that he can draw you as many cards as you need. If you do mono black combo, you could ramp like crazy into him, draw your combo and win on the spot. He was absurd. I'm perfectly okay with him being banned.
Quote from Nodrog »
How is he "more fair" than most blue things? Even Azami needs another card (Mind Over Matter) to draw the deck. Grieslbrand does it all on his own. Also, counterspells are not the aetherial trump card everyone thinks they are. My Teferi deck packs 14 counterspells and I sometimes don't see one when I need it. It's especially bad when people figure that out, because your greatest advantage as a blue mage (power of dissuasion) is gone.
Card draw hate? You mean like Nekusar or Underworld Dreams? That MIGHT work. The thing is, you pretty much have to be playing black for that to be a thing and even then, there's no guarantee you'll do any kind of damage. The point of Griselbrand is the player doesn't mind taking the hit as long as they get everything they need to win. If you're playing something like Boros, you're SOL.
Furthermore, he can respond to just about any removal (without split second) by drawing cards. Here's how it goes down:
Player 1: Griselbrand. Draw seven cards.
Player 2: Terminate
Player 1: Response: draw seven cards. Draw seven cards. Draw seven cards. Got my combo.
Player 2: So Terminate resolves?
Player 1: Yep. Play combo. I win.
This looks very similar to how Azami likes to win, but you have to remember some key details. Azami is a 0/2, that means things like Sudden Death kill her while Griselbrand dodges it. Krosan Grip blows up Mind Over Matter and disrupts the combo. Griselbrand isn't even a legal target. It has to do with the fact that he's a one man show and is much harder to take out.
Those reasons don't really seem all that great to me.
draw 35 cards with little worry???? How are you not worried at 5 life?
The people talking about his stats being crazy he is just a 7/7 lifelink flyer its EDH if you can't deal with that your in the wrong format.
From the same thread alot of those qoutes came from giving a number of answers in multiple colors.
Quote from Hornybull »
I guess this Spirit of the Labyrinth doesn't do much to effect Griselbrand. Same with Notion thief,trickbind,Plagiarize,Possessed Portal, Jace's Archivist,Winds of Change,Windfall,Whispering Madness,Whirlpool Warrior,Timetwister,Chains of Mephistopheles,Wheel of Fortune,Time Spiral,Memory Jar,Reforge the Soul,Time Reversal,Teferi's Puzzle Box,Temporal Cascade,Magus of the Jar,and Psychic Possession. There is no way to mess up Griselbrand's draw.
To make him hurt more I guess we can't use Fate Unraveler,Kederekt Parasite, Nekusar, the Mindrazer,Phyrexian Tyranny,Molten Psyche,Spiteful Visions, Cerebral Vortex and Toil // Trouble.
More useless cards that people refuse to run vs Griselbrand Zur's Weirding,Abeyance,Angel of Jubilation,Cease-Fire,Council of the Absolute,Ethersworn Canonist,Exclusion Ritual,Iona, Shield of Emeria (because she is more fair and fun than griselbrand according to the rules),Orim's Chant,Silence,Sudden Spoiling,Take Possession, Wipe Away,Word of Seizing, and clones if you want your own.
Aren't you guys making to be worse than what he actually is? Plus you can always run the anti combo cards like extract, jester's cap, and etc...
I have to agree with him everyone seems to be making him seem worse than he actually is.
Sure he can be ridiculous with the right hand but so can a lot of cards.
He isn't banned in Dual commander and there he isn't destroying the format. I would think he gets worse the more people there are in a game to disrupt you, not to mention the possibility to tuck him.
Those reasons don't really seem all that great to me.
draw 35 cards with little worry???? How are you not worried at 5 life?
The people talking about his stats being crazy he is just a 7/7 lifelink flyer its EDH if you can't deal with that your in the wrong format.
From the same thread alot of those qoutes came from giving a number of answers in multiple colors.
Quote from Hornybull »
I guess this Spirit of the Labyrinth doesn't do much to effect Griselbrand. Same with Notion thief,trickbind,Plagiarize,Possessed Portal, Jace's Archivist,Winds of Change,Windfall,Whispering Madness,Whirlpool Warrior,Timetwister,Chains of Mephistopheles,Wheel of Fortune,Time Spiral,Memory Jar,Reforge the Soul,Time Reversal,Teferi's Puzzle Box,Temporal Cascade,Magus of the Jar,and Psychic Possession. There is no way to mess up Griselbrand's draw.
To make him hurt more I guess we can't use Fate Unraveler,Kederekt Parasite, Nekusar, the Mindrazer,Phyrexian Tyranny,Molten Psyche,Spiteful Visions, Cerebral Vortex and Toil // Trouble.
More useless cards that people refuse to run vs Griselbrand Zur's Weirding,Abeyance,Angel of Jubilation,Cease-Fire,Council of the Absolute,Ethersworn Canonist,Exclusion Ritual,Iona, Shield of Emeria (because she is more fair and fun than griselbrand according to the rules),Orim's Chant,Silence,Sudden Spoiling,Take Possession, Wipe Away,Word of Seizing, and clones if you want your own.
Aren't you guys making to be worse than what he actually is? Plus you can always run the anti combo cards like extract, jester's cap, and etc...
I have to agree with him everyone seems to be making him seem worse than he actually is.
Sure he can be ridiculous with the right hand but so can a lot of cards.
No matter how much removal you theoretically have, no matter how many counterspells you theoretically have, Griselbrand is still considered a massive card advantage engine. A 7/7 flier for 7 with flying and lifelink and you can pay 7 life to draw 7 cards. He was tested enough in Multiplayer to the point where RC decided that Griselbrand warped the format to the point where he needed to be banned from Multiplayer. If you want to play with Griselbrand so much, go play French Commander aka 1v1 or Duel Commander. He is legal there. Same with Emrakual, the Aeons Torn.
Okay, I'm an advocate against banning most things, but I am still a reasonable person. You don't see Turn 2-3 Griselbrand, draw out deck, win game as busted? There are just no words. If I recall, there was an individual who built a Griselbrand deck with the sole purpose of showing how absolutely f***ing broken he was so that he would be swiftly banned. SPOILER ALERT: It worked because he is that broken.
If it were up to me, I'd just say that EDH has an official sideboard size but they are only 2-4 cards. It lets wishes work and the number of cards in the sideboard is so small that problems with wish power level appear unlikely. Even if you let players swap arounds card pregame, only swapping 1-4 cards is far fewer then are usually swapped around in a 15 card sideboard format. It even gives the RC a lever to adjust wish power level as desired, because the sideboards maximum size can be increased or decreased in small increments until a good spot is reached.
For the record, I am staunchly against, and I think the RC is and ought to be, staunchly against sideboarding in EDH. Sideboarding is the boringest part of any competitive constructed or limited format imo. EDH decks don't/shouldn't need efficient answers to specific strategies, at least not at any competitive level that the RC cares about, and I can't imagine what a snoozefest it would be to have to decide which of the 60 unique cards in my deck to side out every game.
Wishes should work 1 of 3 ways imo:
-wishboard-only sideboards of 10 or so - carries annoying baggage because of how sideboards work in other formats, but this is still my favorite option as long as it's real clear that you can't sideboard.
-any card in your collection that could legally go into your deck - stays true to the way the cards work casually, but does have potential to be annoying if someone brings a bunch of cards or tries to buy one mid-game.
-they just don't work - hey, at least it's simple.
Personally I really like the idea of having legal wishes, and I think wishboards are the best way to make it work. That said, I'd much, much rather have no wishes, than have wishes + actual sideboards.
Okay, I'm an advocate against banning most things, but I am still a reasonable person. You don't see Turn 2-3 Griselbrand, draw out deck, win game as busted? There are just no words. If I recall, there was an individual who built a Griselbrand deck with the sole purpose of showing how absolutely f***ing broken he was so that he would be swiftly banned. SPOILER ALERT: It worked because he is that broken.
The are alot of things that are busted turn 2-3. How about an Iona turn 2-3? Most things can be broken if played right. And sure turn 2-3 you get out Griselbrand and draw 35 cards most likely you are out of mana at that point. What happens if you don't get your combo? you are at 5 life someone kills your griselbrand then kills you.
How is this any different than someone playing Tooth and nail turn 3 and putting kiki-jiki and enabler then winning the game.
No matter how much removal you theoretically have, no matter how many counterspells you theoretically have, Griselbrand is still considered a massive card advantage engine. A 7/7 flier for 7 with flying and lifelink and you can pay 7 life to draw 7 cards. He was tested enough in Multiplayer to the point where RC decided that Griselbrand warped the format to the point where he needed to be banned from Multiplayer. If you want to play with Griselbrand so much, go play French Commander aka 1v1 or Duel Commander. He is legal there. Same with Emrakual, the Aeons Torn.
he is 8 mana for the record and he was banned in like 3 months hardly a long time at all.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
I guess it has been discussed before but no way I'm surfing 900+ pages, so I ask why the following cards haven't been banned especially because other contemporary cards were banned without hesitation:
Consecrated Sphinx. Relatively contemporary to Primeval Titan and older than Griselbrand, still legal to this day. With the prevalence of clones it has the same collusion issue as Trade Secrets and unless it is removed on the spot, it tends to create an unsurmountablea advantage for its player (same than Primeval).
Omniscience. On the same set as Worldfire. Wins the game on the spot with a lot of other cards. Obliterate is the usual suspect but cards like Time Stretch or Enter the Infinite are also saucy and any tutor in hand can search them for free. Can be cheated via Academy Rector or Show and Tell; the ten mana cost isn't an argument given that it also applies to Worldfire.
Cyclonic Rift. Contemporaty of Sylvan Primordial. For a lot of purposes it is an instant speed Plague Wind for every nonland permanent. EoT Cyclonic Rift, Geddon is an easy win and like Worldfire, it is hard to prepare around it barring some narrow cards like Ghostway or leave play triggers like Thragtusk. For combo decks it is ideal to deal with hate: you can sweep a Gaddock Teeg, a Stranglehold and a Humility with a single card at instant speed and go nuts. The best way to keep it on check is with cards like City of Solitude, which are the exact cards the combo player wants to see.
The Sphinx isn't banned for a number of reasons. First, Trade Secrets costs only 3 mana and then lets you and and an opponent draw out your decks, all by itself. Second, Sphinx costs 6, and doesn't draw 2 until your opponent's next draw step. Assuming you have 3 opponents, you draw 6 cards if he tables, which is pretty good, but not broken. He is also a creature, meaning he can be removed in a variety of ways more than a flat out counterspell and it takes a significant period of time before CS even reaches the levels of Trade Secrets in terms of card advantage for its controller. I don't really know what to say if it gets cloned other than that isn't a particular bannable offense. Yeah, you could theoretically draw out your decks, but at the same time, there are a whole lot of creatures that, when cloned, do pretty busted things. Long story short, it's a whole lot more difficult and situational for CS to be anywhere near the natural brokeness that was Trade Secrets.
Worldfire interacted poorly with the rules of the format. It was banned because you can float mana, cast Worldfire, play your commander, and win the game while your opponents can't do anything. The card was not designed with the ability to cast something after it resolved in mind. Omniscience is an obscenely expensive card that requires other cards to win. It doesn't interact with format rules poorly; it does exactly what it was designed to do. It is a bomb and what I would expect if I am paying 10 mana for a spell. You can cheat in creatures with Elvish Piper on Turn 3 with relative ease. Arguing that a spell can come down early hardly makes it banworthy, especially given that some of the combo decks in this format are even faster than that...
Cyclonic Rift is incredibly strong, don't get me wrong, but it is NOT an instant speed Plague Wind. Cards being returned to a player's hand are a far cry from being destroyed. Also, the only way it wins the game is if that player already had a winning board position. That means that it went all around the table without anyone answering the threat at hand. For 7 mana, I would expect something of roughly Cyclonic Rift's power level. Bear in mind that Evacuation does something similar, also at instant speed, but only costs 5 mana instead. I won't argue that Rift is pretty aggressively costed, but it by no means wins the game by itself. You win after resolving it if you already had a winning board state and, at that point, it makes it no different than resolving an Insurrection.
And for the record, something being printed in the same block does not make them comparable in the slightest to other cards that were from that block and were banned.
Consecrated Sphinx is not similar to Primeval Titan. Primeval Titan was banned because of the immediate value that was gotten from blinking, cloning, and reanimating it. It also generated even more value every turn it stayed on the field due to its attack trigger in addition to its ETB trigger and the fact it could get ANY two lands (Gaea's Cradle, Coffers/Urborg, etc and bring them in untapped was pretty busted). CS is more comparable to PoK in that they both generate advantages over time, but those advantages, for the most part, are purely time gated and do NOT give any advantage until your turn ends. If a threat of that nature stays on the field, it will eventually win the game. Rift, like CS, is nothing like its contemporary in Sylvan Primordial. I mean, they aren't even the same card type... Primordial was banned for roughly the same reason that PrimeTime was: too much advantage through reanimation, blink, and cloning. You would 8 for 1 the opponent every time one entered the battlefield. That is an insurmountable advantage, not bouncing permanents to hand.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
It's just 3 cards. Sure, I wish Braids was legal, but it's really not that big a deal.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
If they thought the cards were sooper toxic to the format and banned them because of that, I'd be fine with it, but that isn't the case. The cards are very unique, meaning that they are difficult to replace. I very much enjoy Rofellos in my Omnath list and have struggled to replace him to the point that I run him unless whoever I am playing with objects.
Being fair, if they were always banned I probably wouldn't think twice, but the fact that they were previously legal and all VERY unique cards that are now banned for "simplicity" seems like it takes away from the format rather than adding to it from a figurative standpoint, not just literally taking cards away.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
Agree with someone don't make him right and the "rule" was removed, not created. Without the option of "banned as commander" have increased the consideration of each legendary in a higher level because you have only two options, yes or no.
What's so troublesome to look at the new(10?) legendaries and see if they fit the criteria of "banned as commander"? Why are you so afraid of those three legendaries, terrors of ordinary players, in the middle of the 99 cards?
Have you ever played with stax? It's interesting I promise you.
Other than that, I want to say that you guys are doing a great job and I thank you for that.
Riku of Two Reflections
Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
I know that Sheldon was talking about the banned as commander rule, but I can't help but think of the anti-wish rule when I read this. There are only 9 cards in all magic effected by that rule IIRC.
Still agree, but the same logic applies to both cases.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
lichess.org | chess.com
Unfortunately, it doesn't. There has to be a wish rule, regardless of what the rule actually says, because the CR doesn't provide enough structure for casual play to implement wishes. We don't need 4 people sitting down with 4 different beliefs as to how wishes should work and then having to have an argument in the middle of play.
We set the default at zero so that people who want to play wishes have to discuss it with their playgroup and set appropriate boundaries. As I said on MTGCommander, we're happy to reword the rule if there are better suggestions, but not if it lets a player bully their way into their interpretation.
Why not just ban the 9 cards in question? Let folks allow them in houserules if they like.
Well by saying "wishes don't work" they are effectively banning them. So it's easier than adding 9 cards to the ban list.
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StaffIt's also less honest.
Mostly because we don't want to ban them. We want to ban them from people who just want to show up and have them work how they want them to, but we're more than happy for a playgroup to set rules and make them work. Interestingly, experience has suggested that banning them is way more definitive than having a rule.
Like I said, the current rule may not be expressing that optimally, and we'll look at alternate wordings. But we do have to have something there.
Evidently people are not mature enough to agree how wishes should work, but they're expected to use Vintage power cards responsibly.
1. Get any card you own from outside the game.
2. Only able to retrieve a sideboard card.
I am unfamiliar with any named format that allows players to use case 1 and wish from anywhere. Everything from Block to Vintage always plays a sideboard and wishes may only find cards in the board. The current wording of the EDH rules say that wishes may only retrieve sideboard cards.
Sideboards also solve every rules issue legal wishes could create; such as wishing for a banned card, a card not in the decks CI, or a 2nd copy of a card already in the main deck.
The problem appears to be that decks are not allowed to just play a sideboard via the formats rules.
The way I see things is that it is really just a difference of numbers between 'no sideboards allowed' and '10 card sideboards are allowed'
The current rule may as well be: "Wishes may only retrieve sideboard cards. You're maximum sideboard size is 0."
The house rule is exactly the same thing with the number changed: "Wishes may only retrieve sideboard cards. You're maximum sideboard size is 10."
Let's work our way up from 0, to get to 1: "Wishes may only retrieve sideboard cards. You're maximum sideboard size is 1."
With only a one card sideboard, if you played a wish it would only be able to get the same card every time. It would also be terribly inefficient because you'd need to pay the cost of the wish on top of the cost of the wish target. You're deck could be made more efficient by putting your single sideboard card main deck and removing the wish.
Nothing interesting happens till you reach 2 cards in a sideboard. At this point wishes are now able to choose one of two options. They essentially become a build your own split card.
At 3 cards, it's build your own charm.
At 4, it's Charm+1.
If it were up to me, I'd just say that EDH has an official sideboard size but they are only 2-4 cards. It lets wishes work and the number of cards in the sideboard is so small that problems with wish power level appear unlikely. Even if you let players swap arounds card pregame, only swapping 1-4 cards is far fewer then are usually swapped around in a 15 card sideboard format. It even gives the RC a lever to adjust wish power level as desired, because the sideboards maximum size can be increased or decreased in small increments until a good spot is reached.
Here you go, several reasons why Griselbrand was banned in Multiplayer.
draw 35 cards with little worry???? How are you not worried at 5 life?
The people talking about his stats being crazy he is just a 7/7 lifelink flyer its EDH if you can't deal with that your in the wrong format.
From the same thread alot of those qoutes came from giving a number of answers in multiple colors.
I have to agree with him everyone seems to be making him seem worse than he actually is.
Sure he can be ridiculous with the right hand but so can a lot of cards.
He isn't banned in Dual commander and there he isn't destroying the format. I would think he gets worse the more people there are in a game to disrupt you, not to mention the possibility to tuck him.
No matter how much removal you theoretically have, no matter how many counterspells you theoretically have, Griselbrand is still considered a massive card advantage engine. A 7/7 flier for 7 with flying and lifelink and you can pay 7 life to draw 7 cards. He was tested enough in Multiplayer to the point where RC decided that Griselbrand warped the format to the point where he needed to be banned from Multiplayer. If you want to play with Griselbrand so much, go play French Commander aka 1v1 or Duel Commander. He is legal there. Same with Emrakual, the Aeons Torn.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
Wishes should work 1 of 3 ways imo:
-wishboard-only sideboards of 10 or so - carries annoying baggage because of how sideboards work in other formats, but this is still my favorite option as long as it's real clear that you can't sideboard.
-any card in your collection that could legally go into your deck - stays true to the way the cards work casually, but does have potential to be annoying if someone brings a bunch of cards or tries to buy one mid-game.
-they just don't work - hey, at least it's simple.
Personally I really like the idea of having legal wishes, and I think wishboards are the best way to make it work. That said, I'd much, much rather have no wishes, than have wishes + actual sideboards.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
The are alot of things that are busted turn 2-3. How about an Iona turn 2-3? Most things can be broken if played right. And sure turn 2-3 you get out Griselbrand and draw 35 cards most likely you are out of mana at that point. What happens if you don't get your combo? you are at 5 life someone kills your griselbrand then kills you.
How is this any different than someone playing Tooth and nail turn 3 and putting kiki-jiki and enabler then winning the game.
he is 8 mana for the record and he was banned in like 3 months hardly a long time at all.