Dies to removal is not a real argument. Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur is an insane card, but if someone kills it on your turn it does nothing. Same with Prophet.
However, if it simply lives through the endstep, you can already cast anything you would have been able to cast on that turn instead of casting Prophet. So by living through your turn, Prophet is already a net 0. Anything after that is simply... profit
The difference is, if Jin lives through your end step, you DRAW SEVEN CARDS. If Prophet lives through your end step, you get to untap once and cast creatures or instants.
If Jin lives through your first opponent's end step, he Wits' Ends that player. If Prophet lives through their end step, you get to untap one more time and cast creatures or instants.
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Dies to removal is not a real argument. Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur is an insane card, but if someone kills it on your turn it does nothing. Same with Prophet.
However, if it simply lives through the endstep, you can already cast anything you would have been able to cast on that turn instead of casting Prophet. So by living through your turn, Prophet is already a net 0. Anything after that is simply... profit
The difference is, if Jin lives through your end step, you DRAW SEVEN CARDS. If Prophet lives through your end step, you get to untap once and cast creatures or instants.
If Jin lives through your first opponent's end step, he Wits' Ends that player. If Prophet lives through their end step, you get to untap one more time and cast creatures or instants.
You're comparing Jin's best case scenario to Prophet's worst case scenario. That's all Jin does, whereas with Prophet I usually create a way to win the game before it gets back to my turn and a way to back it up, while with Jin I have the potential to draw into a win but have to discard and then wait until it gets back to my turn, and then have no additional pseduo-mana to cast and backup my win.
Dies to removal is not a real argument. Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur is an insane card, but if someone kills it on your turn it does nothing. Same with Prophet.
However, if it simply lives through the endstep, you can already cast anything you would have been able to cast on that turn instead of casting Prophet. So by living through your turn, Prophet is already a net 0. Anything after that is simply... profit
The difference is, if Jin lives through your end step, you DRAW SEVEN CARDS. If Prophet lives through your end step, you get to untap once and cast creatures or instants.
If Jin lives through your first opponent's end step, he Wits' Ends that player. If Prophet lives through their end step, you get to untap one more time and cast creatures or instants.
You're comparing Jin's best case scenario to Prophet's worst case scenario. That's all Jin does, whereas with Prophet I usually create a way to win the game before it gets back to my turn and a way to back it up, while with Jin I have the potential to draw into a win but have to discard and then wait until it gets back to my turn, and then have no additional pseduo-mana to cast and backup my win.
I think comparing PK to Jin is really bad comparison. Jin is 10 CMC in colors without ramp, PK is half that in colors with ramp. Also, Jin abilities are insane, but he dont give you 3 additional turns like PK does (in FFA of 4). Draw 7 is great, but it in end of turn, so if you don't let mana open, you cannot do anyhting with them and without infinite hand, you need to discard. PK doesn't draw you anything, but enabls you to cast creatures and spells, which is enough to get massive advantage.
Anyway, comparing PK to Jin, for me, it's like comparing TnN to Kozilek...
EDIT: completly unrelated, and I don't know if it is just me, but this whole topic is not showing me any new posts, even if there are some. Do you guys have the same issue or not?
Note you can also cast Jin in the last player before you's end step, untap, draw an extra seven cards and have all of your mana available to protect him.
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Note you can also cast Jin in the last player before you's end step, untap, draw an extra seven cards and have all of your mana available to protect him.
He got written at beginning of YOUR end step. So you can flash him in, but that does only reduce enemy's hand to 0, you won't draw 7 cards.
He got written at beginning of YOUR end step. So you can flash him in, but that does only reduce enemy's hand to 0, you won't draw 7 cards.
Right.
So in a four player game, where I'm player A, I cast it on D's end step. I then proceed to untap, can play stuff, and then draw 7. I now potentially have all of my mana available to protect him and can use him to Mind Twist every single opponent.
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I would be completely fine with PoK getting banned. If people are going out of their way to cheat same card into play over and over again, you know there's a problem. Like, if your first goal in the game is to worldy tutor or green sun zenith for a rofellos every single time, that should be a hint that there's something wrong. That's what PoK is like. Heck, I've had people bribery me, go past the Avenger of Zendikar, vorinclex, consecrated sphinx and sun titan and just go straight for prophet.
Your game plan is pretty much just:
Step 1) Get PoK
Step 2) Have it live
Step 3) Literally anything
It doesn't promote a fun environment once all the games start playing out the same. I play a very competitive Roon deck. The whole point of the deck is to be as obnoxious as possible, so I run tooth and nail insta-kills, dead-eye navigator + anything (my favorite is mystic snake, though I do like angel of serenity as well), force of will and pact of negation, revillark loops, all that fun stuff. And it all works with Prophet, which essentially is just a time walk every turn in Roon. That's what it feels like everytime I play it anyway.
Oh, I guess I should say that I don't care if prophet gets banned either way. I'm just saying that I do see where people are coming from.
But in the decks where PoK is the best, Seedborn Muse is basically as good. The strong ability here is the land untapping one, letting you have countermagic mana up every single turn, and not the flashing creatures one. Flashing creatures is still decent, but if that was Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir's only ability, nobody would play him (he's great because he shuts off all countermagic and response from your opponents). Yes, you can make use of Prophet's creature-flash ability, but for any blue deck running a fist full of countermagic, you can do 90% of what Prophet does. And untap artifacts to boot (which is not broken, but still has some great interactions like Mana Vault/Grim Monolith)
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But in the decks where PoK is the best, Seedborn Muse is basically as good. The strong ability here is the land untapping one, letting you have countermagic mana up every single turn, and not the flashing creatures one. Flashing creatures is still decent, but if that was Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir's only ability, nobody would play him (he's great because he shuts off all countermagic and response from your opponents). Yes, you can make use of Prophet's creature-flash ability, but for any blue deck running a fist full of countermagic, you can do 90% of what Prophet does. And untap artifacts to boot (which is not broken, but still has some great interactions like Mana Vault/Grim Monolith)
This is false. While it's true Seedborn is an amazing card, Seedborn only lets you play instants and cards with Flash. The Prophet also lets you play creatures. Prophet shines in midrangey-Simic based lists, where you get the choice. You may not have a fistful of counters, but often enough only one is needed anyway. On more casual tables, the Prophet player is likely in a stronger position due to playing many more creatures, overwhelming his opponents at that point.
Prophet is good because it combines two great abilities. Teferi is also good due to his combination of abilities. But the combination of the two good abilities makes for an amazing card.
I too have lost games in which I resolved PoK, but most of the time, that was in the case of trying to go for a Hail Mary. Whenever I get some setup going and THEN drop the Prophet, it usually spells good game. Usually, not always, also because there are no cards that win 100% of the time.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
The combination of PoK's abilities is the issue. It turns on God Mode for an already very powerful archetype of EDH - ETB Creature Toolbox. Your ETB creatures now flash and you essentially have infinite mana to cast them. For that archetype, his text reads "In each opponent's upkeep, take an extra turn but skip your combat step and end step."
He is unequivocally more broken than Primeval Titan or even Sundering Titan and should be banned with the fury.
Oppressive hilariousness that I have experienced again and again:
1) Momir Vig player resolves Vig and PoK, uses PoK triggers to tutor for a protection package for Prophet. No one has instant speed removal in hand. Game is over.
2) Maelstrom wanderer cascades into PoK.
3) Kruphix player GSZ's out a Prophet and banks mana for one series of turns, stroke of genius's himself for 40, no one can do anything. Seedborn Muse would be almost as bad, except Seedborn Muse doesn't give Ulamog functional haste [flash in end step].
4) Experiment Kraj drops Prophet and a Cytoplast Manipulator, and takes everyone's best creatures during their upkeep.
Every time the card hits the board it warps the game. If it wheels the table once the game invariably ends. In almost every deck that plays it it's a 1-card infinite combo.
The combination of PoK's abilities is the issue. It turns on God Mode for an already very powerful archetype of EDH - ETB Creature Toolbox. Your ETB creatures now flash and you essentially have infinite mana to cast them. For that archetype, his text reads "In each opponent's upkeep, take an extra turn but skip your combat step and end step."
You don't have infinite mana, don't draw, cant cast sorceries, so its not a turn. Hyperbole won't really get anyone on board with your opinion, facts and direct discussions might.
He is unequivocally more broken than Primeval Titan or even Sundering Titan and should be banned with the fury.
Those were not banned for power reasons, that's moot.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Every time the card hits the board it warps the game. If it wheels the table once the game invariably ends. In almost every deck that plays it it's a 1-card infinite combo.
I almost don't even know what to say. What? Infinite =/= Lasting on the board for multiple turns. Please stop exaggerating. I realize that you're trying to characterize the "doomsday" that is PoK, but using actual facts would help your point. PoK is only as good as the cards that its owner is able to access while it is in play. That's a far cry from anything infinite.
I mean, seriously, if someone is able to just play out their threats and not a single person at the table stops them from doing anything, then they deserve to win. When the amount of threats a player is able to cast unhindered reaches a critical mass, they win the game. While PoK may enable those threats to be played, the entire table sitting there twiddling their thumbs instead of playing pretty much any removal/board wipe/counterspell is pretty darn pathetic. Sure, it can result in being a blowout, but it can be stopped just as easily; and there are whole lot of other cards in the game that are blowouts if left alone. You know what happens when someone leaves a mana doubler on my board in my Omnath deck? Or a Seedborn Muse? The list becomes pretty much unstoppable and it just snowballs. Newsflash: when players are unimpeded with what their gameplan is, they WIN. THE. GAME.
Also, like a normal person, I run maybe 4-5 counters in any single blue deck I own. Maybe their overwhelming number of counters, if they do run 12, is more of a root cause. Seems to me like they could play almost anything they wanted if they always have counter backup and that it isn't a purely PoK issue.
The combination of PoK's abilities is the issue. It turns on God Mode for an already very powerful archetype of EDH - ETB Creature Toolbox. Your ETB creatures now flash and you essentially have infinite mana to cast them. For that archetype, his text reads "In each opponent's upkeep, take an extra turn but skip your combat step and end step."
You don't have infinite mana, don't draw, cant cast sorceries, so its not a turn. Hyperbole won't really get anyone on board with your opinion, facts and direct discussions might.
He is unequivocally more broken than Primeval Titan or even Sundering Titan and should be banned with the fury.
Those were not banned for power reasons, that's moot.
In a deck that is designed to take advantage of it, it is functionally very similar to taking an extra turn in every player's upkeep. That's not hyperbole; you don't get to draw and can't cast sorceries. Dernit. I suppose you'll just have to cast creatures at instant speed that do the same thing sorceries do and forego playing very many sorceries, or play creatures that draw you grips full of cards. The number of times this sequence has happened explains why not getting the draw step is but a minor distinction:
Prophet of kruphix, pass turn.
Oh, unkeep? Flash in consecrated sphinx.
He warps the game in functionally the same way, by allowing people to crap out their hands faster. We can only be gloriously thankful that Prophet is UG instead of U or G. If it was a straight up green card it'd have been banned already, possibly before release
Every time the card hits the board it warps the game. If it wheels the table once the game invariably ends. In almost every deck that plays it it's a 1-card infinite combo.
I almost don't even know what to say. What? Infinite =/= Lasting on the board for multiple turns. Please stop exaggerating. I realize that you're trying to characterize the "doomsday" that is PoK, but using actual facts would help your point. PoK is only as good as the cards that its owner is able to access while it is in play. That's a far cry from anything infinite.
I mean, seriously, if someone is able to just play out their threats and not a single person at the table stops them from doing anything, then they deserve to win. When the amount of threats a player is able to cast unhindered reaches a critical mass, they win the game. While PoK may enable those threats to be played, the entire table sitting there twiddling their thumbs instead of playing pretty much any removal/board wipe/counterspell is pretty darn pathetic. Sure, it can result in being a blowout, but it can be stopped just as easily; and there are whole lot of other cards in the game that are blowouts if left alone. You know what happens when someone leaves a mana doubler on my board in my Omnath deck? Or a Seedborn Muse? The list becomes pretty much unstoppable and it just snowballs. Newsflash: when players are unimpeded with what their gameplan is, they WIN. THE. GAME.
Also, like a normal person, I run maybe 4-5 counters in any single blue deck I own. Maybe their overwhelming number of counters, if they do run 12, is more of a root cause. Seems to me like they could play almost anything they wanted if they always have counter backup and that it isn't a purely PoK issue.
When a deck drops mana reflection, they've got one pool of mana to work with to protect it: whatever they have left over and above tapping down 6 for mana reflection, in addition to the cards in their hand. They don't get to untap their lands in the next player's upkeep, or gain the ability to flash their creatures in to answer things. Usually that requires more cards.
Nothing in the game (that is legal) at 5 mana provides the amount of soul crushing advantage of a resolved prophet of Kruphix. Absolutely nothing. The only thing even close is Consecrated sphinx, who just happens to be in Prophet's colors and go with him like peanut butter and jelly
Nothing in the game (that is legal) at 5 mana provides the amount of soul crushing advantage of a resolved prophet of Kruphix. Absolutely nothing. The only thing even close is Consecrated sphinx
Do you call plays for the seahawks or are you just trolling.
player U/G mage taps 3UG places Prohpet of kruphix on the stack
Player moxnix taps 3BB places Ad Nauseam on the stack
ok pokken your holding your trusty mana drain which cmc 5 card would you be slaying here?
ok here is a better question what does this have to do with the way the rc bans at all? Thats right nothing.
Nothing in the game (that is legal) at 5 mana provides the amount of soul crushing advantage of a resolved prophet of Kruphix. Absolutely nothing. The only thing even close is Consecrated sphinx
Do you call plays for the seahawks or are you just trolling.
player U/G mage taps 3UG places Prohpet of kruphix on the stack
Player moxnix taps 3BB places Ad Nauseam on the stack
ok pokken your holding your trusty mana drain which cmc 5 card would you be slaying here?
ok here is a better question what does this have to do with the way the rc bans at all? Thats right nothing.
I counter the prophet personally At least when the Ad Nauseam combo goes off we can all shuffle up and play another game vs. watching the prophet player play solitaire during everyone's upkeep for the next half hour before they go off.
That said, the format is littered with stupid combos. In the end, there're too many to ban. If fueling an infinite combo was a problem begetting a ban we'd have long since seen bans on Rings of Brighthearth, Illusionist bracers, Power Artifact, etc.
I think it's pretty clear that the RC makes "power level" bannings based on a pretty typical game of incremental advantage with high powered stuff. Sylvan Primordial is pretty typical of the type of banning that Prophet of Kruppy would be - he presents a repetitive, easy to achieve overwhelming advantage in tempo [and in the ends cards, since you'll use him to crap out things that generate CA much quicker than other people can].
If you don't think mana cost is a factor, you're clearly not reading the EDH committee's announcements. Allow me to quote:
re: Sylvan Primordial
It can be easily accelerated into on turn 4 or 5 (before players are expected to have extensive defenses or threats online), at which point it turns a reasonable ramp deck into uninteresting games.
Sylvan Primordial was able to accelerate into a +3/4 net Forest gain for its controller and a -3/4 loss for total opponent permanents. It was a literal 6:1 or even 8:1 trade off and it could be abused every time it entered play, was cloned, or reanimated. PT and SP are the two most notable creature bans for "power level" and it was because their ETB abilities did too much by themselves. PoK cannot be abused in the same way, or even close. Also, Gristlebrand, was actually banned for interacting poorly with the rules of the format because of the increased life total not being factored into his ability.
Mana cost is something that they do consider, but you'd be hard pressed to ban anything on account for it being "too good" for 5 CMC. It's pretty much on par with other 5 mana cards such as Teferi and Seedborn Muse. If they were really trying to ban things that are too aggressively costed, you'd have Sol Ring and Mana Crypt banned immediately, but that doesn't appear to be a goal of theirs at the moment. PoK has survived the past 2 bannings and, while I cannot pretend to know what the RC discuss behind closed doors, I think it is a pretty clear vote of confidence that they do not find it too broken. It's just another good card like DEN that people enjoy complaining about. And if it wasn't one of those two, it would be the next U/G card on the list. Consecrated Sphinx? Craterhoof Behemoth? Why don't you just come out and say that you don't enjoy people making splashy or winning plays? It certainly seems like you oppose anything remotely resembling "goodstuff".
Sylvan Primordial also survived multiple rounds of bannings. So did Primeval Titan. And there's a few other cards. Insights advance through time, it's not a static thing.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
the card does nothing on its own and dies to lighting bolt.
Basically.
"If he counters the removal spell, he wins!"
This assumes that he has the prophet and either a free counterspell OR has more mana and a regular counterspell. And that he has more counters in his personal hand than the total amount of removal that ALL three players in the game have access to over THREE TURNS. Arguing that Prophet protects himself is asinine; he just enables the mana.
"He just dumps his hand, he can protect it with everything!"
He needs cards already in hand, or some way to gain massive card advantage. Oh no, heavily interactable 2+ card combos. Whatever will we do.
"He is playing Momir Vig and just tutors an unbeatable line!"
What kind of dope would sit down to a table across from Momir Vig and not make Path his first tutor target?
I play against Momir Prophet.Dec, and while it certainly has seemingly unbeatable plays, it doesn't steal wins every time prophet lands (which is literally every game by the way). He wins a little less than a quarter of our games with a deck literally built around the idea of being the best Prophet of Kruphix deck that can exist. I've yet to see it do NEARLY what Sylvan Primordial did to the reanimator decks I see around.
What [PoK] does is effectively create an extra turn for it's controller on the turn of each other player. Instead of "one for me, three for you," it's "one for me, one for you." Turns are powerful resources, especially when you have all your resources available.
For what it's worth, I think the only way you're going to get good discussion on PoK is if both sides get out of 'hypothetical game situations' land and think about how the card plays in actual games. PoK is not 3UG = win the game; but it is also not a do nothing Darksteel Relic.
What [PoK] does is effectively create an extra turn for it's controller on the turn of each other player. Instead of "one for me, three for you," it's "one for me, one for you." Turns are powerful resources, especially when you have all your resources available.
For what it's worth, I think the only way you're going to get good discussion on PoK is if both sides get out of 'hypothetical game situations' land and think about how the card plays in actual games. PoK is not 3UG = win the game; but it is also not a do nothing Darksteel Relic.
Thats fair. I don't think its fair to call it an extra turn though; often, when you are taking a turn, you are hoping to draw that one more card. And with Prophet's extra turns, you just don't get that. You also can't cast sorceries or have a combat phase, which wile less relevant, does come up extremely often. Read that way, Prophet is closer to "UG3, Take 1/2 of an extra turn for every turn an opponent takes, this spell can be countered by any removal" which doesn't seem terribly broken to me.
While this is more on game situation discussion, Prophet is an atrocious topdeck if you've got a light hand and your commander isn't naturally card advantage.
While this is more on game situation discussion, Prophet is an atrocious topdeck if you've got a light hand and your commander isn't naturally card advantage.
This part goes for a lot of cards. Birthing Pod is undeniably good, but topdeck it late on, and you're not happy. Wood Elves? Same thing.
The main argument against PoK is simply that it glues UGx decks together a bit too well. It gives a great tempo swing in many cases - as not a lot of people have removal on hand 24/7, and there's other stuff to consider too, AND there's the possibility of a counter to the removal - and its effect is so that it doesn't shut down the game immediately, it just turns things into a slow grind with a huge advantage for the PoK player. See, I don't mind someone resolving a Jin-Gitaxias since he's a 10 mana card and sticking him usually means GG, and removing him isn't TOO hard due to the fact that he doesn't untap stuff. Consecrated Sphinx? Cool, enjoy your few cards, it'll be dealt with. Usually he reads 4UU: Draw 6 cards or something. PoK is just too different. Sure it dies to Lightning Bolt but on most tables you'll never see one of those to begin with.
Comparing it to Ad Nauseam brings back the old "Hardcore Combo vs Timmylicious tables" debate. We all know Ad Nauseam and Hermit Druid are stupid cards, but the RC won't ban them because they're not omnipresent enough. I doubt that's the case for Prophet. Who, unlike the previous two cards, doesn't need to have a deck built around her either.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
The most frustrating thing to me when playing against prophet is that it slows the game down to a crawl. The player with PoK will always have something to do every turn (mana sink, draw effect, flash in stuff). Provided that prophet is played in the right situation it will win the game for sure but it will take a couple of very boring turn where someone is decksturbating every turn. I agree that on its own it does not do a whole lot and dies easily, but it is the most frustrating card that I see the most often right now in any meta. I'd add Cyclonic Rift to this list because most of the time it is used as a "I hope to get back into this game so I rift" instead of rift to win. This card slows down games so much its almost unbearable.
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StaffThe difference is, if Jin lives through your end step, you DRAW SEVEN CARDS. If Prophet lives through your end step, you get to untap once and cast creatures or instants.
If Jin lives through your first opponent's end step, he Wits' Ends that player. If Prophet lives through their end step, you get to untap one more time and cast creatures or instants.
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I think comparing PK to Jin is really bad comparison. Jin is 10 CMC in colors without ramp, PK is half that in colors with ramp. Also, Jin abilities are insane, but he dont give you 3 additional turns like PK does (in FFA of 4). Draw 7 is great, but it in end of turn, so if you don't let mana open, you cannot do anyhting with them and without infinite hand, you need to discard. PK doesn't draw you anything, but enabls you to cast creatures and spells, which is enough to get massive advantage.
Anyway, comparing PK to Jin, for me, it's like comparing TnN to Kozilek...
EDIT: completly unrelated, and I don't know if it is just me, but this whole topic is not showing me any new posts, even if there are some. Do you guys have the same issue or not?
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He got written at beginning of YOUR end step. So you can flash him in, but that does only reduce enemy's hand to 0, you won't draw 7 cards.
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StaffRight.
So in a four player game, where I'm player A, I cast it on D's end step. I then proceed to untap, can play stuff, and then draw 7. I now potentially have all of my mana available to protect him and can use him to Mind Twist every single opponent.
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Your game plan is pretty much just:
Step 1) Get PoK
Step 2) Have it live
Step 3) Literally anything
It doesn't promote a fun environment once all the games start playing out the same. I play a very competitive Roon deck. The whole point of the deck is to be as obnoxious as possible, so I run tooth and nail insta-kills, dead-eye navigator + anything (my favorite is mystic snake, though I do like angel of serenity as well), force of will and pact of negation, revillark loops, all that fun stuff. And it all works with Prophet, which essentially is just a time walk every turn in Roon. That's what it feels like everytime I play it anyway.
Oh, I guess I should say that I don't care if prophet gets banned either way. I'm just saying that I do see where people are coming from.
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This is false. While it's true Seedborn is an amazing card, Seedborn only lets you play instants and cards with Flash. The Prophet also lets you play creatures. Prophet shines in midrangey-Simic based lists, where you get the choice. You may not have a fistful of counters, but often enough only one is needed anyway. On more casual tables, the Prophet player is likely in a stronger position due to playing many more creatures, overwhelming his opponents at that point.
Prophet is good because it combines two great abilities. Teferi is also good due to his combination of abilities. But the combination of the two good abilities makes for an amazing card.
I too have lost games in which I resolved PoK, but most of the time, that was in the case of trying to go for a Hail Mary. Whenever I get some setup going and THEN drop the Prophet, it usually spells good game. Usually, not always, also because there are no cards that win 100% of the time.
He is unequivocally more broken than Primeval Titan or even Sundering Titan and should be banned with the fury.
Oppressive hilariousness that I have experienced again and again:
1) Momir Vig player resolves Vig and PoK, uses PoK triggers to tutor for a protection package for Prophet. No one has instant speed removal in hand. Game is over.
2) Maelstrom wanderer cascades into PoK.
3) Kruphix player GSZ's out a Prophet and banks mana for one series of turns, stroke of genius's himself for 40, no one can do anything. Seedborn Muse would be almost as bad, except Seedborn Muse doesn't give Ulamog functional haste [flash in end step].
4) Experiment Kraj drops Prophet and a Cytoplast Manipulator, and takes everyone's best creatures during their upkeep.
Every time the card hits the board it warps the game. If it wheels the table once the game invariably ends. In almost every deck that plays it it's a 1-card infinite combo.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Those were not banned for power reasons, that's moot.
I almost don't even know what to say. What? Infinite =/= Lasting on the board for multiple turns. Please stop exaggerating. I realize that you're trying to characterize the "doomsday" that is PoK, but using actual facts would help your point. PoK is only as good as the cards that its owner is able to access while it is in play. That's a far cry from anything infinite.
I mean, seriously, if someone is able to just play out their threats and not a single person at the table stops them from doing anything, then they deserve to win. When the amount of threats a player is able to cast unhindered reaches a critical mass, they win the game. While PoK may enable those threats to be played, the entire table sitting there twiddling their thumbs instead of playing pretty much any removal/board wipe/counterspell is pretty darn pathetic. Sure, it can result in being a blowout, but it can be stopped just as easily; and there are whole lot of other cards in the game that are blowouts if left alone. You know what happens when someone leaves a mana doubler on my board in my Omnath deck? Or a Seedborn Muse? The list becomes pretty much unstoppable and it just snowballs. Newsflash: when players are unimpeded with what their gameplan is, they WIN. THE. GAME.
Also, like a normal person, I run maybe 4-5 counters in any single blue deck I own. Maybe their overwhelming number of counters, if they do run 12, is more of a root cause. Seems to me like they could play almost anything they wanted if they always have counter backup and that it isn't a purely PoK issue.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
In a deck that is designed to take advantage of it, it is functionally very similar to taking an extra turn in every player's upkeep. That's not hyperbole; you don't get to draw and can't cast sorceries. Dernit. I suppose you'll just have to cast creatures at instant speed that do the same thing sorceries do and forego playing very many sorceries, or play creatures that draw you grips full of cards. The number of times this sequence has happened explains why not getting the draw step is but a minor distinction:
Prophet of kruphix, pass turn.
Oh, unkeep? Flash in consecrated sphinx.
He warps the game in functionally the same way, by allowing people to crap out their hands faster. We can only be gloriously thankful that Prophet is UG instead of U or G. If it was a straight up green card it'd have been banned already, possibly before release
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
When a deck drops mana reflection, they've got one pool of mana to work with to protect it: whatever they have left over and above tapping down 6 for mana reflection, in addition to the cards in their hand. They don't get to untap their lands in the next player's upkeep, or gain the ability to flash their creatures in to answer things. Usually that requires more cards.
Nothing in the game (that is legal) at 5 mana provides the amount of soul crushing advantage of a resolved prophet of Kruphix. Absolutely nothing. The only thing even close is Consecrated sphinx, who just happens to be in Prophet's colors and go with him like peanut butter and jelly
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Do you call plays for the seahawks or are you just trolling.
player U/G mage taps 3UG places Prohpet of kruphix on the stack
Player moxnix taps 3BB places Ad Nauseam on the stack
ok pokken your holding your trusty mana drain which cmc 5 card would you be slaying here?
ok here is a better question what does this have to do with the way the rc bans at all? Thats right nothing.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
I counter the prophet personally
That said, the format is littered with stupid combos. In the end, there're too many to ban. If fueling an infinite combo was a problem begetting a ban we'd have long since seen bans on Rings of Brighthearth, Illusionist bracers, Power Artifact, etc.
I think it's pretty clear that the RC makes "power level" bannings based on a pretty typical game of incremental advantage with high powered stuff. Sylvan Primordial is pretty typical of the type of banning that Prophet of Kruppy would be - he presents a repetitive, easy to achieve overwhelming advantage in tempo [and in the ends cards, since you'll use him to crap out things that generate CA much quicker than other people can].
If you don't think mana cost is a factor, you're clearly not reading the EDH committee's announcements. Allow me to quote:
re: Sylvan Primordial
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Mana cost is something that they do consider, but you'd be hard pressed to ban anything on account for it being "too good" for 5 CMC. It's pretty much on par with other 5 mana cards such as Teferi and Seedborn Muse. If they were really trying to ban things that are too aggressively costed, you'd have Sol Ring and Mana Crypt banned immediately, but that doesn't appear to be a goal of theirs at the moment. PoK has survived the past 2 bannings and, while I cannot pretend to know what the RC discuss behind closed doors, I think it is a pretty clear vote of confidence that they do not find it too broken. It's just another good card like DEN that people enjoy complaining about. And if it wasn't one of those two, it would be the next U/G card on the list. Consecrated Sphinx? Craterhoof Behemoth? Why don't you just come out and say that you don't enjoy people making splashy or winning plays? It certainly seems like you oppose anything remotely resembling "goodstuff".
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
Nope
Where do i say anything that even points you in this direction?
the card does nothing on its own and dies to lighting bolt.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
/thread
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
Basically.
"If he counters the removal spell, he wins!"
This assumes that he has the prophet and either a free counterspell OR has more mana and a regular counterspell. And that he has more counters in his personal hand than the total amount of removal that ALL three players in the game have access to over THREE TURNS. Arguing that Prophet protects himself is asinine; he just enables the mana.
"He just dumps his hand, he can protect it with everything!"
He needs cards already in hand, or some way to gain massive card advantage. Oh no, heavily interactable 2+ card combos. Whatever will we do.
"He is playing Momir Vig and just tutors an unbeatable line!"
What kind of dope would sit down to a table across from Momir Vig and not make Path his first tutor target?
I play against Momir Prophet.Dec, and while it certainly has seemingly unbeatable plays, it doesn't steal wins every time prophet lands (which is literally every game by the way). He wins a little less than a quarter of our games with a deck literally built around the idea of being the best Prophet of Kruphix deck that can exist. I've yet to see it do NEARLY what Sylvan Primordial did to the reanimator decks I see around.
#moneypile
BUG Tasigur GUB
#buglyfe
For what it's worth, I think the only way you're going to get good discussion on PoK is if both sides get out of 'hypothetical game situations' land and think about how the card plays in actual games. PoK is not 3UG = win the game; but it is also not a do nothing Darksteel Relic.
Thats fair. I don't think its fair to call it an extra turn though; often, when you are taking a turn, you are hoping to draw that one more card. And with Prophet's extra turns, you just don't get that. You also can't cast sorceries or have a combat phase, which wile less relevant, does come up extremely often. Read that way, Prophet is closer to "UG3, Take 1/2 of an extra turn for every turn an opponent takes, this spell can be countered by any removal" which doesn't seem terribly broken to me.
While this is more on game situation discussion, Prophet is an atrocious topdeck if you've got a light hand and your commander isn't naturally card advantage.
#moneypile
BUG Tasigur GUB
#buglyfe
This part goes for a lot of cards. Birthing Pod is undeniably good, but topdeck it late on, and you're not happy. Wood Elves? Same thing.
The main argument against PoK is simply that it glues UGx decks together a bit too well. It gives a great tempo swing in many cases - as not a lot of people have removal on hand 24/7, and there's other stuff to consider too, AND there's the possibility of a counter to the removal - and its effect is so that it doesn't shut down the game immediately, it just turns things into a slow grind with a huge advantage for the PoK player. See, I don't mind someone resolving a Jin-Gitaxias since he's a 10 mana card and sticking him usually means GG, and removing him isn't TOO hard due to the fact that he doesn't untap stuff. Consecrated Sphinx? Cool, enjoy your few cards, it'll be dealt with. Usually he reads 4UU: Draw 6 cards or something. PoK is just too different. Sure it dies to Lightning Bolt but on most tables you'll never see one of those to begin with.
Comparing it to Ad Nauseam brings back the old "Hardcore Combo vs Timmylicious tables" debate. We all know Ad Nauseam and Hermit Druid are stupid cards, but the RC won't ban them because they're not omnipresent enough. I doubt that's the case for Prophet. Who, unlike the previous two cards, doesn't need to have a deck built around her either.