We've talked kind of endlessly about the mulligan rule and simply can't find one worth switching to (considering that it would have to be pretty freaking good in order to cause all the trouble it would cause).
Liquid_water: It hasn't really changed the discussion at all. As far as hard bans, Balance is the top of the list. Limited Resources is pretty close and should be banned in every multiplayer format. I can't ever see us unbanning Biorhythm either. There is no way in hell Primeval Titan is getting unbanned. Cryogen, I dispute your assessment that there are fewer Clones running around; copying something awesome is always cheaper than casting it. Copy, clone, steal, is still an over-represented strategy IMO. Reintroducing Prime Time into that mix would just restart the devolution.
Of all the cards to call no way in hell, I wouldn't label prime time as that. As removal gets better, prime time becomes a weaker creature. The only think that makes prime time powerful with one activation is Urborg and cabal coffers... that's it. Get those two lands, and you surge ahead in mana production. Maybe ink moth nexus and that pump land. But other than that, the power level of what ptime can fetch drops sharply. Based on the current list, i find ptime harder to justify on the list, and can foresee him coming off in the next 5 years. If anything, wizards will just make more versions of him and SP since there is a demand in the EDH community for it.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
Of all the cards to call no way in hell, I wouldn't label prime time as that. As removal gets better, prime time becomes a weaker creature. The only think that makes prime time powerful with one activation is Urborg and cabal coffers... that's it. Get those two lands, and you surge ahead in mana production. Maybe ink moth nexus and that pump land. But other than that, the power level of what ptime can fetch drops sharply. Based on the current list, i find ptime harder to justify on the list, and can foresee him coming off in the next 5 years. If anything, wizards will just make more versions of him and SP since there is a demand in the EDH community for it.
Of all the cards to call no way in hell, I wouldn't label prime time as that. As removal gets better, prime time becomes a weaker creature. The only think that makes prime time powerful with one activation is Urborg and cabal coffers... that's it. Get those two lands, and you surge ahead in mana production. Maybe ink moth nexus and that pump land. But other than that, the power level of what ptime can fetch drops sharply. Based on the current list, i find ptime harder to justify on the list, and can foresee him coming off in the next 5 years. If anything, wizards will just make more versions of him and SP since there is a demand in the EDH community for it.
I agree with Liquid. It seems a really sad thing that Prime Time is right up there next to Balance and Limited Resources. We get it, it would be the best creature to clone. That medal has to go to something.
All of the cards you named are either trash tier, require some other factor, and/or can be dealt with through one of many board sweepers. Cabal/Urborg are the only combination that require an opponent to NEED land destruction.
I doubt we'll see a Recurring Nightmare unban. It's too good. There's absolutely no priority given back, and no one (of decent levels) casts RN and passes the turn. The only ways to get rid of it are discard and counter. It's really not hard to play around counters, and discard is at times situational.
If RN could do be activated once, and not bounced to the hand as a cost, then we might see some discussion.
BTW, T1 Kozilek or whatever degenerate fatty is not coz of the creatures being degenerate, but it's the resources used to cast them. Do away with fast mana and you'll see the difference.
I'm still wondering how he's getting to T1 Metalworker, 'cause I sure can't see a way to cast Metalworker T1, AND give him haste, AND have enough artifacts left in hand to power out Kozilek. It requires what amounts to a godhand to do so T2, and at that point, that's the same kind of sillyness Sol Ring already allows on its own.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I'm still wondering how he's getting to T1 Metalworker, 'cause I sure can't see a way to cast Metalworker T1, AND give him haste, AND have enough artifacts left in hand to power out Kozilek. It requires what amounts to a godhand to do so T2, and at that point, that's the same kind of sillyness Sol Ring already allows on its own.
One of my friends used to play Burntgerbil's Kozi list (slightly modified), and a T2 Kozi wasn't that hard.
BTW, T1 Kozilek or whatever degenerate fatty is not coz of the creatures being degenerate, but it's the resources used to cast them. Do away with fast mana and you'll see the difference.
you can power turn 1 kozi off mw but all the hands look something like workshop + greaves/boots + mw + crypt/ring/vault/led/ + artifact. and in those piles mw is just about the most fair card of the bunch. considering i can instantly win with doomsday with 3 less cards it seems quit tame and stupidly hard to get as far as god hands go.
Regarding mulligan rules, the ideal mulligan would heavily favor drawing cards of which there are many copies in your deck (like lands), but not cards with only a few copies in your deck (like combo Sol Ring + tutors). The one burntgerbil just posted that limits total mulligans is probably effective to that end, though it doesn't allow for color fixing and forces you to keep shaky 2-land hands.
There is also something called the Oxford mulligan that looks promising, which is similar to PP but doesn't allow you to dig as deep, thereby limiting your ability to find and sculpt around specific cards. After you draw your initial 7, you can choose to draw 2 more, then exile 3 from your hand, and you can repeat that as many times as you want. Then you shuffle the exiled cards back and start the game.
The Oxford mulligan gives a higher average number of lands per starting hand than regular Big Deck mulligans, and it is fairly bad at digging for and sculpting around specific cards. It only requires one shuffle and also lets you get rid of what you DON'T want, which are some of the main selling points of the PP. Like I said, I am still researching it, but initial results are promising.
I'm still wondering how he's getting to T1 Metalworker, 'cause I sure can't see a way to cast Metalworker T1, AND give him haste, AND have enough artifacts left in hand to power out Kozilek. It requires what amounts to a godhand to do so T2, and at that point, that's the same kind of sillyness Sol Ring already allows on its own.
Exile Metalworker to a turn-0 Gemstone Caverns, play an Island and cast Flash to put Kozilek into play from your hand. Metalworker OP.
Without partial mulligans, starting games up would take too long. Not everyone can hold a 99 cards and shuffle. Someone people will pile shuffle rather than sift/mash. What if there are sideboards? People would sideboard before even taking a mulligan if need be.
Is it worse to sculpt your hand or have players not be able to play?
Unban primeval Titan!
I need something good to tutor my utility lands into play.
Plus it makes bounce lands good again and I like using bounce lands with PT.
I am perfectly fine with using it as a 6 mana sorcery that fetches 2 utility lands. Potential for more uses is nice, but not something I build my deck around abusing.
The clone issue is a good point. I find it more difficult to shove clones in all my blue decks now that they dont guarantee a removal of a commander. Which makes PT less likely to be clone chained.
Also black is getting more exile removal and more removal in general is moving to exile which also makes clone chains more likely. plus the argument about the better graveyard removal helps keep PT in check.
"Expedition map is a card" is what people would say.
I'm still wondering how he's getting to T1 Metalworker, 'cause I sure can't see a way to cast Metalworker T1, AND give him haste, AND have enough artifacts left in hand to power out Kozilek. It requires what amounts to a godhand to do so T2, and at that point, that's the same kind of sillyness Sol Ring already allows on its own.
He went on the draw so i went first. I was playing Riku.
Breeding pool on turn 1 for me.
He drew
t1 : Mishra's workshop, tap for 3, cast Mana vault, tap mana vault giving 5 colourless floating. 6 cards in hand.
Cast Metalworker and Lightning greaves leaving 0 floating, 4 cards in hand. Equipped Lightning greaves to metalworker and tap metalworker revealing Solring, Mana Crypt, Thran dynamo and Voltaic key giving 8 floating colourless.
He cast Voltaic key, Mana crypt and Sol ring leaving 6 mana, he tapped both Sol ring and Mana crypt for 10 colourless and casted Kozilek. I scooped my soon to be sac'd breeding pool.
He didnt cast kozilek on turn 1 in game 2 but he did it on turn 5 using Kuldotha forgemaster to tutor Metalworker to hardcast Kozilek and swing with swiftfoot boots equipped. I tried to stop him on turn 3 using beast within but he still managed to pull off the same *****.
He said its because "Rofellos is banned so my Azusa cant be as fast as before, but now i have an even faster deck, so im all good. Thank you, Sheldon"
The only time i beat him is with kaalia - Master of cruelties on turn 3, lel.
Ah whatever, not like metalworker is a good card anyway, trash tier.
I have my doubts about Prime Time. While his "brokeness" is up for debate, his overcentralizing nature isn't. I'm all for reevaluating banned cards, but I'd rather and sooner see Sylvan Primordial, personally. Protean Hulk, Panoptic Mirror and Painter's Servant, however, I 100% favor unbanning (OK, 70% on the mirror, I have some reservations on that one)
SP: oh god no.
I think that a lot of the issue with Prime Time was due to the legend rule at the time. Back when it was legal, if you were in blue you had almost no reason to not run clone effects. They were kill spells that bypassed every form of protection, and at the worst you could usually rely on PT. now that clones function as intended and without the loophole, they don't see as much play, and as such, I doubt we would see PT as centralizing as it was.
I really disagree, PT was banned because every green deck was running PT, it was simply the best thing to ramp into. Almost every green deck (that wasn't attempting a rapid combo win, although this could facilitate it) attempted a turn 3-4 PT to set up a solid lead above table or win within a turn or two as 2 lands, plus often one attack was a big lead. It was to quote others, 99 cards + PT if you were playing green. The ubiquity, even without the frequency of clone effects was the issue. The fact clones were played had no bearing on every green deck that could playing it. No other card truly has this issue and from experience at the time it made playing green/white/x or green/blue/x more or less a consistent affair as tutoring ensured a similar start when PT was the first tutor target. I would love to run it in Titania, but I recognise allowing it would stifle the format in creativity.
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Weiss Schwarz Sets
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
GIFTS UNGIVEN
We know that this will raise a great cry from some players, but as we previously noted, Gifts is simply broken (especially at the 3U cost and the fact that it's an Instant). The ability to tutor for two combo pieces and two ways to recur them generally makes this a one-card game-ender, which we feel is completely contrary to the EDH vision.
Of all the cards to call no way in hell, I wouldn't label prime time as that. As removal gets better, prime time becomes a weaker creature. The only think that makes prime time powerful with one activation is Urborg and cabal coffers... that's it. Get those two lands, and you surge ahead in mana production. Maybe ink moth nexus and that pump land. But other than that, the power level of what ptime can fetch drops sharply. Based on the current list, i find ptime harder to justify on the list, and can foresee him coming off in the next 5 years. If anything, wizards will just make more versions of him and SP since there is a demand in the EDH community for it.
No, all those lands require a lot of work, coffers only requires that you have either a ton of swamps or urborg. Drop prime time turn 6 off six lands and you get 16 black mana turn 7 assuming a land drop on turn 7. That's a crazy spike in production. That play becomes nearly impossible if urborg was not a thing. You can name all these awesome lands it can fetch, but the fact of the matter is if you run prime time, you should run black for coffers and urborg. Personally, I find urborg to be one of those cards I dislike because you can run it nulifies the weakness of multi color decks (and the mono black fanboy inside of me finds using coffers in a 5 color deck to be dirty). I also don't like how a land can have an effect on every other player's lands.
The prime time ban was simply a choice between banning urborg or prime time. Prime time was an easier sell. Make no mistake that cloning and reanimating is nothing new and removing prime time doesn't solve that degenerative spiral. Prime time was over the top because urborg existed, the end. Don't believe me? Look at all the banlist discussions about prime time, it boiled down to urborg and coffers or ink moth nexus and a pump land (which loses to naturalize...). Then that argument shifted into ban tooth and nail because prime time searched for urborg and coffers.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
I really disagree, PT was banned because every green deck was running PT, it was simply the best thing to ramp into. Almost every green deck (that wasn't attempting a rapid combo win, although this could facilitate it) attempted a turn 3-4 PT to set up a solid lead above table or win within a turn or two 9as 2 lands, plus often one attack was a big lead. It was to quote others, 99 cards + PT if you were playing green. The ubiquity, even without the frequency of clone effects was the issue. The fact clones were played had no bearing on every green deck that could playing it. No other card truly has this issue and from experience at the time it made playing green/white/x or green/blue/x more or less a consistent affair as tutoring ensured a similar start when PT was the first tutor target. I would love to run it in Titania, but I recognise allowing it would stifle the format in creativity.
Oh I don't doubt that, and every green deck would still run him. But it wasn't just that, because I can name cards that every deck off that color runs. It was also the blue factor. Don't know who to Bribery? Target the green player. Got a Clone? Prime Time will show up eventually. I saw it all the time on MTGO. He centralized the format, and clones had a lot to do with that. Unfortunately, I think we would see a resurgance of that if PT were unbanned.
Gifts is still broken as an instant speed tutor for up to two cards. It had enough of a drawback in other formats because running one-ofs was always a hindrance, but in Commander that is a defining part of the format. The only thing I think makes it worth discussing during the RC cabal meetings is how it fits in their view of shaping the format in regards to combo.
I really disagree, PT was banned because every green deck was running PT, it was simply the best thing to ramp into. Almost every green deck (that wasn't attempting a rapid combo win, although this could facilitate it) attempted a turn 3-4 PT to set up a solid lead above table or win within a turn or two 9as 2 lands, plus often one attack was a big lead. It was to quote others, 99 cards + PT if you were playing green. The ubiquity, even without the frequency of clone effects was the issue. The fact clones were played had no bearing on every green deck that could playing it. No other card truly has this issue and from experience at the time it made playing green/white/x or green/blue/x more or less a consistent affair as tutoring ensured a similar start when PT was the first tutor target. I would love to run it in Titania, but I recognise allowing it would stifle the format in creativity.
Oh I don't doubt that, and every green deck would still run him. But it wasn't just that, because I can name cards that every deck off that color runs. It was also the blue factor. Don't know who to Bribery? Target the green player. Got a Clone? Prime Time will show up eventually. I saw it all the time on MTGO. He centralized the format, and clones had a lot to do with that. Unfortunately, I think we would see a resurgance of that if PT were unbanned.
Gifts is still broken as an instant speed tutor for up to two cards. It had enough of a drawback in other formats because running one-ofs was always a hindrance, but in Commander that is a defining part of the format. The only thing I think makes it worth discussing during the RC cabal meetings is how it fits in their view of shaping the format in regards to combo.
The one-of drawback isn't even that big of a deal; it's the CMC of 4 that holds it back in Modern and Legacy. FoF doesn't see much play there either, and Gifts managed to get restricted in Vintage anyway. It is just that strong, and the issue here is that Gifts doesn't really require building around like Hermit Druid or Ad Nauseam. I'd more liken it to Yawgmoth's Bargain.
Unban primeval Titan!
I need something good to tutor my utility lands into play.
Plus it makes bounce lands good again and I like using bounce lands with PT.
I am perfectly fine with using it as a 6 mana sorcery that fetches 2 utility lands. Potential for more uses is nice, but not something I build my deck around abusing.
The clone issue is a good point. I find it more difficult to shove clones in all my blue decks now that they dont guarantee a removal of a commander. Which makes PT less likely to be clone chained.
Also black is getting more exile removal and more removal in general is moving to exile which also makes clone chains more likely. plus the argument about the better graveyard removal helps keep PT in check.
"Expedition map is a card" is what people would say.
I'm still wondering how he's getting to T1 Metalworker, 'cause I sure can't see a way to cast Metalworker T1, AND give him haste, AND have enough artifacts left in hand to power out Kozilek. It requires what amounts to a godhand to do so T2, and at that point, that's the same kind of sillyness Sol Ring already allows on its own.
He went on the draw so i went first. I was playing Riku.
Breeding pool on turn 1 for me.
He drew
t1 : Mishra's workshop, tap for 3, cast Mana vault, tap mana vault giving 5 colourless floating. 6 cards in hand.
Cast Metalworker and Lightning greaves leaving 0 floating, 4 cards in hand. Equipped Lightning greaves to metalworker and tap metalworker revealing Solring, Mana Crypt, Thran dynamo and Voltaic key giving 8 floating colourless.
He cast Voltaic key, Mana crypt and Sol ring leaving 6 mana, he tapped both Sol ring and Mana crypt for 10 colourless and casted Kozilek. I scooped my soon to be sac'd breeding pool.
He didnt cast kozilek on turn 1 in game 2 but he did it on turn 5 using Kuldotha forgemaster to tutor Metalworker to hardcast Kozilek and swing with swiftfoot boots equipped. I tried to stop him on turn 3 using beast within but he still managed to pull off the same *****.
He said its because "Rofellos is banned so my Azusa cant be as fast as before, but now i have an even faster deck, so im all good. Thank you, Sheldon"
The only time i beat him is with kaalia - Master of cruelties on turn 3, lel.
Ah whatever, not like metalworker is a good card anyway, trash tier.
Yeah, and how does one NOT define this as pretty much a supreme god hand, filled with broken fast mana cards? I mean, seriously, Sol Ring, AND Mana Crypt, AND Mana Vault, AND Mishra's workshop. Three of those four are banworthy but aren't banned because people somehow don't identify fast mana as broken, the other is a 300 dollar card that everyone acknowledges is great, MAYBE near broken but is held back by being useful only in specific decks.
Turn 5 Kuldotha Forgemaster requires some luck, and you not having artifact removal on hand. Not Metalworker's fault once again, because if I have a T5 untapped Metalworker, I too can cast Kozi, WITHOUT Metalworker. But odds are I'm just gonna win the game on the spot anyway.
Those insane plays are not Metalworker's fault. They're fully on the shoulders of fast mana. But go and blame the wrong card for your woes.
Also, Sol Ring in 1v1. Seems fair.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
t1 : Mishra's workshop, tap for 3, cast Mana vault, tap mana vault giving 5 colourless floating. 6 cards in hand.
Cast Metalworker and Lightning greaves leaving 0 floating, 4 cards in hand. Equipped Lightning greaves to metalworker and tap metalworker revealing Solring, Mana Crypt, Thran dynamo and Voltaic key giving 8 floating colourless.
He cast Voltaic key, Mana crypt and Sol ring leaving 6 mana, he tapped both Sol ring and Mana crypt for 10 colourless and casted Kozilek. I scooped my soon to be sac'd breeding pool.
He didnt cast kozilek on turn 1 in game 2 but he did it on turn 5 using Kuldotha forgemaster to tutor Metalworker to hardcast Kozilek and swing with swiftfoot boots equipped. I tried to stop him on turn 3 using beast within but he still managed to pull off the same *****.
He said its because "Rofellos is banned so my Azusa cant be as fast as before, but now i have an even faster deck, so im all good. Thank you, Sheldon"
The only time i beat him is with kaalia - Master of cruelties on turn 3, lel.
Ah whatever, not like metalworker is a good card anyway, trash tier.
How can your take away from this possibly be that Metalworker is the problem?
This same scenario is possible off of workshop, ring, crypt, key, vault, then Lotus Petal. Quick ban Lotus Petal it's broken
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EDH playing competitive Magic cast away
Current Decks GTitania midrange RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
EDH is intended to be a multiplayer format. You can play it 1v1 - just as you can bring a ping-pong paddle to a tennis match.
Neither one of those is an experience that I'd want to have. I'm also curious as to what kind of mulligan possibly helped this guy explode so early.
Regardless, the fast-mana artifacts are balanced by other players targeting them and their players in a game. In a 1v1, the balance is obviously skewed. Also, at this point you're no longer discussing the Multiplayer Banned List.
I've seen plenty of decks running metalworker and in 4+ player games with reasonable mulligan rules (no partial), this is never a problem. I recommend creating house rules for 1v1 play or just not playing against that deck if this continues.
I strongly believe that partial mulligans are more to blame for degenerative game states than fast artifact mana is. If your group discourages mulligans for anything other than being mana-screwed, then this problem may disappear.
Gifts Ungivenis just plain broken. T1 into a T2 win-con just screams bad for the game. Played right, and some luck, you could T1 win.
Primeval Titan is long overdue for removal from the list. Too many ways to handle it. Stasis lock, Exile, etc. If your deck cannot hate this guy out of the game in like 2 seconds, you may wanna rethink your deck strategy. You can sideboard into answers for things like this. Cunning WishGlittering Wish anyone? I would rather deal with a PT than say Elvish piper or Seedborn Muse
Library of Alexandria is a interesting choice for the ban list. It has not been broken for a long time. With so many ways in the game to get rid of it, and limited utility within the current game, I do not see this one needing a ban still. The key to this cards old school broken status was getting multiple of them into play, or giving yourself multiple ways to tap/untap it. Things easily handled nowadays.
I wonder...If Primeval Titan is a hell no, then what is Sylvan Primordial? The latter was always far more oppressive where I play.
With the evolution of grave hate, as stated, I think RN's a great unban. Even with the best creatures available, there are more threatening strategies than 4BB a loop in EDH as it stands.
Quote from ensoleille »
He said its because "Rofellos is banned so my Azusa cant be as fast as before, but now i have an even faster deck, so im all good. Thank you, Sheldon"
I think we have no choice based on this empirical data—we have to ban Sheldon.
Gifts Ungivenis just plain broken. T1 into a T2 win-con just screams bad for the game. Played right, and some luck, you could T1 win.
Primeval Titan is long overdue for removal from the list. Too many ways to handle it. Stasis lock, Exile, etc. If your deck cannot hate this guy out of the game in like 2 seconds, you may wanna rethink your deck strategy. You can sideboard into answers for things like this. Cunning WishGlittering Wish anyone? I would rather deal with a PT than say Elvish piper or Seedborn Muse
Library of Alexandria is a interesting choice for the ban list. It has not been broken for a long time. With so many ways in the game to get rid of it, and limited utility within the current game, I do not see this one needing a ban still. The key to this cards old school broken status was getting multiple of them into play, or giving yourself multiple ways to tap/untap it. Things easily handled nowadays.
Officially, sideboards are not legal anymore, and Stasis locks are widely viewed as antisocial, so those really aren't good solutions. my own experience with PT is that it was poke Tempt With Discovery; the best play is to get rid of it ASAP without letting it impact the board, but in practice everyone wants a piece of the action.
Unban primeval Titan!
I need something good to tutor my utility lands into play.
Plus it makes bounce lands good again and I like using bounce lands with PT.
I am perfectly fine with using it as a 6 mana sorcery that fetches 2 utility lands. Potential for more uses is nice, but not something I build my deck around abusing.
The clone issue is a good point. I find it more difficult to shove clones in all my blue decks now that they dont guarantee a removal of a commander. Which makes PT less likely to be clone chained.
Also black is getting more exile removal and more removal in general is moving to exile which also makes clone chains more likely. plus the argument about the better graveyard removal helps keep PT in check.
"Expedition map is a card" is what people would say.
I'm still wondering how he's getting to T1 Metalworker, 'cause I sure can't see a way to cast Metalworker T1, AND give him haste, AND have enough artifacts left in hand to power out Kozilek. It requires what amounts to a godhand to do so T2, and at that point, that's the same kind of sillyness Sol Ring already allows on its own.
He went on the draw so i went first. I was playing Riku.
Breeding pool on turn 1 for me.
He drew
t1 : Mishra's workshop, tap for 3, cast Mana vault, tap mana vault giving 5 colourless floating. 6 cards in hand.
Cast Metalworker and Lightning greaves leaving 0 floating, 4 cards in hand. Equipped Lightning greaves to metalworker and tap metalworker revealing Solring, Mana Crypt, Thran dynamo and Voltaic key giving 8 floating colourless.
He cast Voltaic key, Mana crypt and Sol ring leaving 6 mana, he tapped both Sol ring and Mana crypt for 10 colourless and casted Kozilek. I scooped my soon to be sac'd breeding pool.
He didnt cast kozilek on turn 1 in game 2 but he did it on turn 5 using Kuldotha forgemaster to tutor Metalworker to hardcast Kozilek and swing with swiftfoot boots equipped. I tried to stop him on turn 3 using beast within but he still managed to pull off the same *****.
He said its because "Rofellos is banned so my Azusa cant be as fast as before, but now i have an even faster deck, so im all good. Thank you, Sheldon"
The only time i beat him is with kaalia - Master of cruelties on turn 3, lel.
Ah whatever, not like metalworker is a good card anyway, trash tier.
Yeah, and how does one NOT define this as pretty much a supreme god hand, filled with broken fast mana cards? I mean, seriously, Sol Ring, AND Mana Crypt, AND Mana Vault, AND Mishra's workshop. Three of those four are banworthy but aren't banned because people somehow don't identify fast mana as broken, the other is a 300 dollar card that everyone acknowledges is great, MAYBE near broken but is held back by being useful only in specific decks.
Turn 5 Kuldotha Forgemaster requires some luck, and you not having artifact removal on hand. Not Metalworker's fault once again, because if I have a T5 untapped Metalworker, I too can cast Kozi, WITHOUT Metalworker. But odds are I'm just gonna win the game on the spot anyway.
Those insane plays are not Metalworker's fault. They're fully on the shoulders of fast mana. But go and blame the wrong card for your woes.
Also, Sol Ring in 1v1. Seems fair.
While I think sol ring/crypt/vault/workshop should all be banned before metalworker, I believe that unbanning metalworker was incorrect.
While graveyard removal has gotten better I've struggled to fit it in my decks either because my playgroup doesn't abuse the yard a ton, it hurts me too, or it just sits there. I generally like to be proactive in my playing, so I don't like sitting on graveyard removal and hoping it'll be relevant. If recurring nightmare would get unbanned I wouldn't appreciate having to put in yard hate incase I face recurring nightmare or something that abuses the yard. I don't think there's enough yard hate that's just good almost anywhere no matter the circumstance to think about adding recurring nightmare back in. At the same time I wouldn't want everyone to have "accidental graveyard hate" that will kill my graveyard abuse decks. I know different people have different playgroups, but that's just my experience.
I feel like people are getting hung up on how you can interact with Recurring Nightmare. This wouldn't be an issue if it was a sorcery with buyback. I'm pretty sure there's a card in in tempest or stronghold (some time just before they went to color-coding rarity) that does the exact same thing as an instant, but sacrifices the creature that is reanimated, rather than a different creature as a cost.
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Of all the cards to call no way in hell, I wouldn't label prime time as that. As removal gets better, prime time becomes a weaker creature. The only think that makes prime time powerful with one activation is Urborg and cabal coffers... that's it. Get those two lands, and you surge ahead in mana production. Maybe ink moth nexus and that pump land. But other than that, the power level of what ptime can fetch drops sharply. Based on the current list, i find ptime harder to justify on the list, and can foresee him coming off in the next 5 years. If anything, wizards will just make more versions of him and SP since there is a demand in the EDH community for it.
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx + Deserted Temple or Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage or Crypt of Agadeem + Deserted Temple or Gaea's Cradle / Serra's Sanctum could cause quite a bit of trouble also. All of these lands see play in our group. Finding any of them with Prime Time could dramatically swing the game.
All of the cards you named are either trash tier, require some other factor, and/or can be dealt with through one of many board sweepers. Cabal/Urborg are the only combination that require an opponent to NEED land destruction.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
If RN could do be activated once, and not bounced to the hand as a cost, then we might see some discussion.
BTW, T1 Kozilek or whatever degenerate fatty is not coz of the creatures being degenerate, but it's the resources used to cast them. Do away with fast mana and you'll see the difference.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
One of my friends used to play Burntgerbil's Kozi list (slightly modified), and a T2 Kozi wasn't that hard.
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WURZedruu, the Greathearted
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GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
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There is also something called the Oxford mulligan that looks promising, which is similar to PP but doesn't allow you to dig as deep, thereby limiting your ability to find and sculpt around specific cards. After you draw your initial 7, you can choose to draw 2 more, then exile 3 from your hand, and you can repeat that as many times as you want. Then you shuffle the exiled cards back and start the game.
The Oxford mulligan gives a higher average number of lands per starting hand than regular Big Deck mulligans, and it is fairly bad at digging for and sculpting around specific cards. It only requires one shuffle and also lets you get rid of what you DON'T want, which are some of the main selling points of the PP. Like I said, I am still researching it, but initial results are promising.
Exile Metalworker to a turn-0 Gemstone Caverns, play an Island and cast Flash to put Kozilek into play from your hand. Metalworker OP.
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Is it worse to sculpt your hand or have players not be able to play?
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
"Expedition map is a card" is what people would say.
He went on the draw so i went first. I was playing Riku.
Breeding pool on turn 1 for me.
He drew
t1 : Mishra's workshop, tap for 3, cast Mana vault, tap mana vault giving 5 colourless floating. 6 cards in hand.
Cast Metalworker and Lightning greaves leaving 0 floating, 4 cards in hand. Equipped Lightning greaves to metalworker and tap metalworker revealing Solring, Mana Crypt, Thran dynamo and Voltaic key giving 8 floating colourless.
He cast Voltaic key, Mana crypt and Sol ring leaving 6 mana, he tapped both Sol ring and Mana crypt for 10 colourless and casted Kozilek. I scooped my soon to be sac'd breeding pool.
He didnt cast kozilek on turn 1 in game 2 but he did it on turn 5 using Kuldotha forgemaster to tutor Metalworker to hardcast Kozilek and swing with swiftfoot boots equipped. I tried to stop him on turn 3 using beast within but he still managed to pull off the same *****.
He said its because "Rofellos is banned so my Azusa cant be as fast as before, but now i have an even faster deck, so im all good. Thank you, Sheldon"
The only time i beat him is with kaalia - Master of cruelties on turn 3, lel.
Ah whatever, not like metalworker is a good card anyway, trash tier.
I really disagree, PT was banned because every green deck was running PT, it was simply the best thing to ramp into. Almost every green deck (that wasn't attempting a rapid combo win, although this could facilitate it) attempted a turn 3-4 PT to set up a solid lead above table or win within a turn or two as 2 lands, plus often one attack was a big lead. It was to quote others, 99 cards + PT if you were playing green. The ubiquity, even without the frequency of clone effects was the issue. The fact clones were played had no bearing on every green deck that could playing it. No other card truly has this issue and from experience at the time it made playing green/white/x or green/blue/x more or less a consistent affair as tutoring ensured a similar start when PT was the first tutor target. I would love to run it in Titania, but I recognise allowing it would stifle the format in creativity.
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Azorius Boros Dimir Golgari Gruul Izzet Korozda
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http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2074
No, all those lands require a lot of work, coffers only requires that you have either a ton of swamps or urborg. Drop prime time turn 6 off six lands and you get 16 black mana turn 7 assuming a land drop on turn 7. That's a crazy spike in production. That play becomes nearly impossible if urborg was not a thing. You can name all these awesome lands it can fetch, but the fact of the matter is if you run prime time, you should run black for coffers and urborg. Personally, I find urborg to be one of those cards I dislike because you can run it nulifies the weakness of multi color decks (and the mono black fanboy inside of me finds using coffers in a 5 color deck to be dirty). I also don't like how a land can have an effect on every other player's lands.
The prime time ban was simply a choice between banning urborg or prime time. Prime time was an easier sell. Make no mistake that cloning and reanimating is nothing new and removing prime time doesn't solve that degenerative spiral. Prime time was over the top because urborg existed, the end. Don't believe me? Look at all the banlist discussions about prime time, it boiled down to urborg and coffers or ink moth nexus and a pump land (which loses to naturalize...). Then that argument shifted into ban tooth and nail because prime time searched for urborg and coffers.
Oh I don't doubt that, and every green deck would still run him. But it wasn't just that, because I can name cards that every deck off that color runs. It was also the blue factor. Don't know who to Bribery? Target the green player. Got a Clone? Prime Time will show up eventually. I saw it all the time on MTGO. He centralized the format, and clones had a lot to do with that. Unfortunately, I think we would see a resurgance of that if PT were unbanned.
Gifts is still broken as an instant speed tutor for up to two cards. It had enough of a drawback in other formats because running one-ofs was always a hindrance, but in Commander that is a defining part of the format. The only thing I think makes it worth discussing during the RC cabal meetings is how it fits in their view of shaping the format in regards to combo.
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Yeah, and how does one NOT define this as pretty much a supreme god hand, filled with broken fast mana cards? I mean, seriously, Sol Ring, AND Mana Crypt, AND Mana Vault, AND Mishra's workshop. Three of those four are banworthy but aren't banned because people somehow don't identify fast mana as broken, the other is a 300 dollar card that everyone acknowledges is great, MAYBE near broken but is held back by being useful only in specific decks.
Turn 5 Kuldotha Forgemaster requires some luck, and you not having artifact removal on hand. Not Metalworker's fault once again, because if I have a T5 untapped Metalworker, I too can cast Kozi, WITHOUT Metalworker. But odds are I'm just gonna win the game on the spot anyway.
Those insane plays are not Metalworker's fault. They're fully on the shoulders of fast mana. But go and blame the wrong card for your woes.
Also, Sol Ring in 1v1. Seems fair.
How can your take away from this possibly be that Metalworker is the problem?
This same scenario is possible off of workshop, ring, crypt, key, vault, then Lotus Petal. Quick ban Lotus Petal it's broken
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Neither one of those is an experience that I'd want to have. I'm also curious as to what kind of mulligan possibly helped this guy explode so early.
Regardless, the fast-mana artifacts are balanced by other players targeting them and their players in a game. In a 1v1, the balance is obviously skewed. Also, at this point you're no longer discussing the Multiplayer Banned List.
I've seen plenty of decks running metalworker and in 4+ player games with reasonable mulligan rules (no partial), this is never a problem. I recommend creating house rules for 1v1 play or just not playing against that deck if this continues.
I strongly believe that partial mulligans are more to blame for degenerative game states than fast artifact mana is. If your group discourages mulligans for anything other than being mana-screwed, then this problem may disappear.
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Curse PremiumPrimeval Titan is long overdue for removal from the list. Too many ways to handle it. Stasis lock, Exile, etc. If your deck cannot hate this guy out of the game in like 2 seconds, you may wanna rethink your deck strategy. You can sideboard into answers for things like this. Cunning Wish Glittering Wish anyone? I would rather deal with a PT than say Elvish piper or Seedborn Muse
Library of Alexandria is a interesting choice for the ban list. It has not been broken for a long time. With so many ways in the game to get rid of it, and limited utility within the current game, I do not see this one needing a ban still. The key to this cards old school broken status was getting multiple of them into play, or giving yourself multiple ways to tap/untap it. Things easily handled nowadays.
With the evolution of grave hate, as stated, I think RN's a great unban. Even with the best creatures available, there are more threatening strategies than 4BB a loop in EDH as it stands.
I think we have no choice based on this empirical data—we have to ban Sheldon.
Officially, sideboards are not legal anymore, and Stasis locks are widely viewed as antisocial, so those really aren't good solutions. my own experience with PT is that it was poke Tempt With Discovery; the best play is to get rid of it ASAP without letting it impact the board, but in practice everyone wants a piece of the action.
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While I think sol ring/crypt/vault/workshop should all be banned before metalworker, I believe that unbanning metalworker was incorrect.
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URGMaelstrom Wanderer
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GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
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