You know you've won an argument when the other party starts ignoring your points. Perhaps we could talk about more realistic efforts at this point.
We already have Sheldon's word that Painter's Servant will be looked at, so that's a good thing. Perhaps we could talk about Recurring Nightmare? I've never seen it in action myself, but due to the low speed of the actions as well as the constant mana effort, I seriously wonder how it is broken. Perhaps someone with more experience with the Nightmare can elaborate? It looks like a fun card to me, after all.
RN is sort of like Dead Eye Navigator in that it creates a stable way to loop ETB/LTB. It's mechanically different, in some ways quite different, but look at it through the DEN lens and it'll give you an idea of what it can do in a game. I want it unbanned badly as I adore reanimator strategies. I also want PS unbanned.
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"I think EDH would be more fun for the majority of participants if players just showed eachother their decks rather than actually playing games out."
You know you've won an argument when the other party starts ignoring your points. Perhaps we could talk about more realistic efforts at this point.
We already have Sheldon's word that Painter's Servant will be looked at, so that's a good thing. Perhaps we could talk about Recurring Nightmare? I've never seen it in action myself, but due to the low speed of the actions as well as the constant mana effort, I seriously wonder how it is broken. Perhaps someone with more experience with the Nightmare can elaborate? It looks like a fun card to me, after all.
I'd rather see recurring nightmare unbanned instead of painter's servant. Nightmare is a really good engine (maybe too good), but painter's servant? I just don't like it's interactions with other colors matter cards like washout. Not to mention that unbanning this will insta ban Iona, which some people are ok with. I'd rather have Iona enter play and scoop than have the board washed out and watch that player vomit their hand back onto the field.
So you'd prefer to scoop to an Iona rather than scoop to a 2-card-Upheaval? Painter's Servant holds so much more potentional for fun stuff than Iona (Emphasis on fun), it's not even a contest there. And most color matter cards aren't even that impressive, but do get a boost from the Servant (See, for example, Lyzolda, the Blood Witch) But it's already been stated the Servant will be talked about by the RC a while back, so that's a moot point.
As for the Nightmare, just how good an engine is something that requires 3 mana and a sacrifice for what's essentially a Reanimate of sorts? I mean sure you can do crazy stuff with the likes of Reveillark and Karmic Guide, but I'm starting to wonder if that's not their fault by now (Seeing how those two also appeared to be major culprints in the Protean Hulk discussion)
Recurring nightmare looks fine until you realize that the sacrifice and return to it's hand is part of the cost. For the most part only blue can interact with nightmare at all. Otherwise once it's not on the stack anymore there's no opportunity to do anything about it. Combine that with the all the loops it can do and you have something pretty degenerate.
You know you've won an argument when the other party starts ignoring your points. Perhaps we could talk about more realistic efforts at this point.
We already have Sheldon's word that Painter's Servant will be looked at, so that's a good thing. Perhaps we could talk about Recurring Nightmare? I've never seen it in action myself, but due to the low speed of the actions as well as the constant mana effort, I seriously wonder how it is broken. Perhaps someone with more experience with the Nightmare can elaborate? It looks like a fun card to me, after all.
I'd rather see recurring nightmare unbanned instead of painter's servant. Nightmare is a really good engine (maybe too good), but painter's servant? I just don't like it's interactions with other colors matter cards like washout. Not to mention that unbanning this will insta ban Iona, which some people are ok with. I'd rather have Iona enter play and scoop than have the board washed out and watch that player vomit their hand back onto the field.
So you'd prefer to scoop to an Iona rather than scoop to a 2-card-Upheaval? Painter's Servant holds so much more potentional for fun stuff than Iona (Emphasis on fun), it's not even a contest there. And most color matter cards aren't even that impressive, but do get a boost from the Servant (See, for example, Lyzolda, the Blood Witch) But it's already been stated the Servant will be talked about by the RC a while back, so that's a moot point.
As for the Nightmare, just how good an engine is something that requires 3 mana and a sacrifice for what's essentially a Reanimate of sorts? I mean sure you can do crazy stuff with the likes of Reveillark and Karmic Guide, but I'm starting to wonder if that's not their fault by now (Seeing how those two also appeared to be major culprints in the Protean Hulk discussion)
Yup. Other than that, fun is subjective. Personally, I find drinking my friend's vomit during magic to be fun... but not a lot of people agree with me. Same goes for Iona. Iona gets a bad rap for fun, which varies depending on the player... so you probably have about a million or so definitions. I have seen her save the table by locking out a player in the process of going bonkers. It sucks for the person hit by it, but watching a blue player sit on consecrated sphinx, draw card his colorless answer, and get blown out in the table is redeeming. I've also seen her hit play, eat a removal and do nothing. I've also seen her hit play, call out a color, and get removed by a removal spell of a different color. She has no impact on the board, at best she's a win more lock out at worst... an inefficient bear.
RN's effect isn't good.... it's the activation cost and the bounce effect. You can counter it... or blow it up when you have priority. Stifle doesn't stop it, and "in response I naturalize it" really doesn't work.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
You know you've won an argument when the other party starts ignoring your points. Perhaps we could talk about more realistic efforts at this point.
We already have Sheldon's word that Painter's Servant will be looked at, so that's a good thing. Perhaps we could talk about Recurring Nightmare? I've never seen it in action myself, but due to the low speed of the actions as well as the constant mana effort, I seriously wonder how it is broken. Perhaps someone with more experience with the Nightmare can elaborate? It looks like a fun card to me, after all.
I'd rather see recurring nightmare unbanned instead of painter's servant. Nightmare is a really good engine (maybe too good), but painter's servant? I just don't like it's interactions with other colors matter cards like washout. Not to mention that unbanning this will insta ban Iona, which some people are ok with. I'd rather have Iona enter play and scoop than have the board washed out and watch that player vomit their hand back onto the field.
So you'd prefer to scoop to an Iona rather than scoop to a 2-card-Upheaval? Painter's Servant holds so much more potentional for fun stuff than Iona (Emphasis on fun), it's not even a contest there. And most color matter cards aren't even that impressive, but do get a boost from the Servant (See, for example, Lyzolda, the Blood Witch) But it's already been stated the Servant will be talked about by the RC a while back, so that's a moot point.
As for the Nightmare, just how good an engine is something that requires 3 mana and a sacrifice for what's essentially a Reanimate of sorts? I mean sure you can do crazy stuff with the likes of Reveillark and Karmic Guide, but I'm starting to wonder if that's not their fault by now (Seeing how those two also appeared to be major culprints in the Protean Hulk discussion)
Recurring nightmare looks fine until you realize that the sacrifice and return to it's hand is part of the cost. For the most part only blue can interact with nightmare at all. Otherwise once it's not on the stack anymore there's no opportunity to do anything about it. Combine that with the all the loops it can do and you have something pretty degenerate.
I'd say black also can interact with it via graveyard removal, both targeted and mass.
The thing about RN is that you don't get priority. If no one has counter magic then it resolves and the owner immediately bounces it back to their hand. Once it hits play the ONLY way to respond is instant speed GY hate targeting the intended creature (or the entire yard). That limits you to a couple of artifacts, black, and white cards.
All that said, and what I think at the very least merits discussion about the card is that graveyard removal is way better, more prevalent, and more sophisticated than it was when RN was banned. I'm often glib about wanting the card unbanned, but in all seriousness, it deserves at least to be talked about, which we will at the next meeting. I still wouldn't run out and buy them because they're cheap; I'd say the possibility of it coming back are still quite slim--in fact, the possibility of me voting for it to come back are at this point still remote.
I disagree on the Painter's Servant and Iona discussion, much like Staff of Domination was once perceived, the reality is Painter's Servant will not be used for anything except combos and 'fun applications' are likely to be few and far between compared to completing combos. To make PS safe several cards would need to be banned. If it is going to be unbanned, unban it, but lets not pretend Iona is the only 'difficult' combo that it facilitates or that PS will be used casually given its powerful interactions with legacy and vintage strength combo pieces.
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Weiss Schwarz Sets
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Also, Iona is a card that seems to embody the format - big, splashy creature with big, splashy effects.
She can certainly give you an advantage but you always hear the phrase "lock people out of the game" when she's brought up, which simply isn't true. She's worse than some of the praetors at stopping your opponents from playing magic, if that is what the issue with her truly is. Vorinclex, Jin and the 2 others to a lesser extent are much bigger blowouts.
You know you've won an argument when the other party starts ignoring your points. Perhaps we could talk about more realistic efforts at this point.
We already have Sheldon's word that Painter's Servant will be looked at, so that's a good thing. Perhaps we could talk about Recurring Nightmare? I've never seen it in action myself, but due to the low speed of the actions as well as the constant mana effort, I seriously wonder how it is broken. Perhaps someone with more experience with the Nightmare can elaborate? It looks like a fun card to me, after all.
I'd rather see recurring nightmare unbanned instead of painter's servant. Nightmare is a really good engine (maybe too good), but painter's servant? I just don't like it's interactions with other colors matter cards like washout. Not to mention that unbanning this will insta ban Iona, which some people are ok with. I'd rather have Iona enter play and scoop than have the board washed out and watch that player vomit their hand back onto the field.
So you'd prefer to scoop to an Iona rather than scoop to a 2-card-Upheaval? Painter's Servant holds so much more potentional for fun stuff than Iona (Emphasis on fun), it's not even a contest there. And most color matter cards aren't even that impressive, but do get a boost from the Servant (See, for example, Lyzolda, the Blood Witch) But it's already been stated the Servant will be talked about by the RC a while back, so that's a moot point.
As for the Nightmare, just how good an engine is something that requires 3 mana and a sacrifice for what's essentially a Reanimate of sorts? I mean sure you can do crazy stuff with the likes of Reveillark and Karmic Guide, but I'm starting to wonder if that's not their fault by now (Seeing how those two also appeared to be major culprints in the Protean Hulk discussion)
Recurring nightmare looks fine until you realize that the sacrifice and return to it's hand is part of the cost. For the most part only blue can interact with nightmare at all. Otherwise once it's not on the stack anymore there's no opportunity to do anything about it. Combine that with the all the loops it can do and you have something pretty degenerate.
I'd say black also can interact with it via graveyard removal, both targeted and mass.
Touche. There has been quite a bit of sick nasty removal lately.
All that said, and what I think at the very least merits discussion about the card is that graveyard removal is way better, more prevalent, and more sophisticated than it was when RN was banned. I'm often glib about wanting the card unbanned, but in all seriousness, it deserves at least to be talked about, which we will at the next meeting. I still wouldn't run out and buy them because they're cheap; I'd say the possibility of it coming back are still quite slim--in fact, the possibility of me voting for it to come back are at this point still remote.
Interesting, at least this shows that the banlist is a shifting list. Are there any cards that you personally believe are hard bans? Such as limited resources and karakas? Cards I believe should not be in this format by merits of how this format was designed.
Since you (not you literally) removed the commander only banlist, are you telling your friends at wizards to remake braids as a non-legendary? Please? I'll pay you. Has the discussions about various "trouble" commanders changed now that a banning exiles them from even playing in the 99?
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
Someone explain the unbanning of Metalworker to me, please. Im getting destroyed by turn 1 Kozileks.
Can you explain how someone is using Metalworker for a turn 1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth? I can't really think of a hand that would let you pull that off. Also Metalworker can be a really strong ramp card but without a lot of build around he starts to wind down pretty quickly.
Sheldon, would you also please take a serious talk at Hulk and Gifts? The community here thinks they don't belong, and I have to say that compared with a lot of legal things, those cards are strong but not as broken as they used to be.
Aldo, I mentioned the partial Paris a while back. Don't know if you saw, but what are your thoughts on getting rid of it?
Hold on, Gifts doesn't belong? I've seen a few posts on it, but none of them were really backed by others unlike Hulk. I think those who want Gifts unbanned are mostly the ones who think it's stupid Intuition is unbanned but Gifts isn't, but I can't say I've seen many other points about Gifts. I doubt unbanning it would be a particulary healthy choice.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Sheldon, would you also please take a serious talk at Hulk and Gifts? The community here thinks they don't belong, and I have to say that compared with a lot of legal things, those cards are strong but not as broken as they used to be.
Aldo, I mentioned the partial Paris a while back. Don't know if you saw, but what are your thoughts on getting rid of it?
I would like to echo this request. I feel like the answer for gifts is that it is too good strong of a card that can also fetch a combo and recursion engine. If the card is banned because it's just too good, I can understand that. But banning just because it can fetch combos? Sounds more like you're just removing a tool from players that decided to combo in the first place and will continue to combo. Replicate the kokusho test, run it in all your blue decks. See how it fares without being used to combo.
I think the argument against hulk is that it can create undesirable game states. Since it was banned, a lot of new removal options and graveyard hate have surfaced, so maybe it's time to replicate the kokusho test with with card as well.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
Bruna and Mimeoplasm would both make it a way cheaper Intuition. And counter spell decks would have extra redundance for their counters. You could more easily Mindslaver lock with Academy Ruins.
A lot of that is just strong plays that already exist without Gifts.
I have my doubts about Prime Time. While his "brokeness" is up for debate, his overcentralizing nature isn't. I'm all for reevaluating banned cards, but I'd rather and sooner see Sylvan Primordial, personally. Protean Hulk, Panoptic Mirror and Painter's Servant, however, I 100% favor unbanning (OK, 70% on the mirror, I have some reservations on that one)
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I have my doubts about Prime Time. While his "brokeness" is up for debate, his overcentralizing nature isn't. I'm all for reevaluating banned cards, but I'd rather and sooner see Sylvan Primordial, personally. Protean Hulk, Panoptic Mirror and Painter's Servant, however, I 100% favor unbanning (OK, 70% on the mirror, I have some reservations on that one)
SP: oh god no.
I think that a lot of the issue with Prime Time was due to the legend rule at the time. Back when it was legal, if you were in blue you had almost no reason to not run clone effects. They were kill spells that bypassed every form of protection, and at the worst you could usually rely on PT. now that clones function as intended and without the loophole, they don't see as much play, and as such, I doubt we would see PT as centralizing as it was.
Unban primeval Titan!
I need something good to tutor my utility lands into play.
Plus it makes bounce lands good again and I like using bounce lands with PT.
I am perfectly fine with using it as a 6 mana sorcery that fetches 2 utility lands. Potential for more uses is nice, but not something I build my deck around abusing.
The clone issue is a good point. I find it more difficult to shove clones in all my blue decks now that they dont guarantee a removal of a commander. Which makes PT less likely to be clone chained.
Also black is getting more exile removal and more removal in general is moving to exile which also makes clone chains more likely. plus the argument about the better graveyard removal helps keep PT in check.
We've talked kind of endlessly about the mulligan rule and simply can't find one worth switching to (considering that it would have to be pretty freaking good in order to cause all the trouble it would cause).
Liquid_water: It hasn't really changed the discussion at all. As far as hard bans, Balance is the top of the list. Limited Resources is pretty close and should be banned in every multiplayer format. I can't ever see us unbanning Biorhythm either. There is no way in hell Primeval Titan is getting unbanned. Cryogen, I dispute your assessment that there are fewer Clones running around; copying something awesome is always cheaper than casting it. Copy, clone, steal, is still an over-represented strategy IMO. Reintroducing Prime Time into that mix would just restart the devolution.
I have my doubts about Prime Time. While his "brokeness" is up for debate, his overcentralizing nature isn't. I'm all for reevaluating banned cards, but I'd rather and sooner see Sylvan Primordial, personally. Protean Hulk, Panoptic Mirror and Painter's Servant, however, I 100% favor unbanning (OK, 70% on the mirror, I have some reservations on that one)
That means nothing. All that happened was that the over centralizing nature went to the next broken card. Basically, we are just totem pole banning at this stage. So unless Craterhoof Behemoth, Grave Titan, Koko, and Consecrated Sphinx are next on the agenda, there was no issue in multiple playgroups of just cloning/bribary the next best thing.
Sheldon, that's fair. I personally don't see clones as much, but Wizards will always make big splashy creatures, which means at the very least, Metamorph, Impersonator, and Phantasmal Image will always be good cards to run. I appreciate the response.
We've talked kind of endlessly about the mulligan rule and simply can't find one worth switching to (considering that it would have to be pretty freaking good in order to cause all the trouble it would cause).
I would love to see testing of a non-partial mulligan. One of my regular shops uses partial mulligans and the others don't. Games are shaped so profoundly by opening partial mulligans at that one shop that it's staggering.
I strongly advocate the abolition of the practice of partial mulligans and the shift to 100%-all-or-nothing-7-card mulligans. I urge you and other groups to test this practice.
EDIT: I guess the main problem is determining a process to allow players that need to mulligan to do so without opening the door for abuse from others. I guess that involves some manner of "qualifying" for the mulligan - like having a certain threshold of mana-producing lands - or some other method. People claim that the method most of my local shops use (No-partial, No-free, only a free full mulligan with a qualifying hand of 0,1,6 or 7 mana-producing lands) could encourage players to use fewer lands to encourage more of these mulligans. We've never seen that in any game, but if you limit the number of mulligans to two (and then you're stuck with that third mulligan) it should minimize abusive mulligans.
That's a pile of rules for a relatively complicated mulligan (at first).
RN is sort of like Dead Eye Navigator in that it creates a stable way to loop ETB/LTB. It's mechanically different, in some ways quite different, but look at it through the DEN lens and it'll give you an idea of what it can do in a game. I want it unbanned badly as I adore reanimator strategies. I also want PS unbanned.
Recurring nightmare looks fine until you realize that the sacrifice and return to it's hand is part of the cost. For the most part only blue can interact with nightmare at all. Otherwise once it's not on the stack anymore there's no opportunity to do anything about it. Combine that with the all the loops it can do and you have something pretty degenerate.
My Saffi deck
Yup. Other than that, fun is subjective. Personally, I find drinking my friend's vomit during magic to be fun... but not a lot of people agree with me. Same goes for Iona. Iona gets a bad rap for fun, which varies depending on the player... so you probably have about a million or so definitions. I have seen her save the table by locking out a player in the process of going bonkers. It sucks for the person hit by it, but watching a blue player sit on consecrated sphinx, draw card his colorless answer, and get blown out in the table is redeeming. I've also seen her hit play, eat a removal and do nothing. I've also seen her hit play, call out a color, and get removed by a removal spell of a different color. She has no impact on the board, at best she's a win more lock out at worst... an inefficient bear.
RN's effect isn't good.... it's the activation cost and the bounce effect. You can counter it... or blow it up when you have priority. Stifle doesn't stop it, and "in response I naturalize it" really doesn't work.
I'd say black also can interact with it via graveyard removal, both targeted and mass.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Main Decks
Diaochan, Iroas, God of Victory, Kaalia, Marton, Ulasht, Volrath,
Kaervek, Prossh, Titania
Amusing or Themed
Progenitus
Pauper Guildmages
Azorius Boros Dimir Golgari Gruul Izzet Korozda
Orzhov Rakdos Rix Maadi Selesyna Simic Skarrg Zameck
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Wixoss - Just trial decks for now!
She can certainly give you an advantage but you always hear the phrase "lock people out of the game" when she's brought up, which simply isn't true. She's worse than some of the praetors at stopping your opponents from playing magic, if that is what the issue with her truly is. Vorinclex, Jin and the 2 others to a lesser extent are much bigger blowouts.
:symr::symu::symb:Nicol Bolas Control: symr::symu::symb:
:symr::symg:Ruric Thar, the Unbowed Beatdown :gruul::symgr:
:symg::symb::symw:Karador, Ghost Chieftain Recursion Control :symw::symb::symg:
Touche. There has been quite a bit of sick nasty removal lately.
Interesting, at least this shows that the banlist is a shifting list. Are there any cards that you personally believe are hard bans? Such as limited resources and karakas? Cards I believe should not be in this format by merits of how this format was designed.
Since you (not you literally) removed the commander only banlist, are you telling your friends at wizards to remake braids as a non-legendary? Please? I'll pay you. Has the discussions about various "trouble" commanders changed now that a banning exiles them from even playing in the 99?
Can you explain how someone is using Metalworker for a turn 1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth? I can't really think of a hand that would let you pull that off. Also Metalworker can be a really strong ramp card but without a lot of build around he starts to wind down pretty quickly.
RGW Rith, the Awakener
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
UBR Nicol Bolas
GWU Treva, the Renewer
RWU Numot, the Devastator
Aldo, I mentioned the partial Paris a while back. Don't know if you saw, but what are your thoughts on getting rid of it?
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
I would like to echo this request. I feel like the answer for gifts is that it is too good strong of a card that can also fetch a combo and recursion engine. If the card is banned because it's just too good, I can understand that. But banning just because it can fetch combos? Sounds more like you're just removing a tool from players that decided to combo in the first place and will continue to combo. Replicate the kokusho test, run it in all your blue decks. See how it fares without being used to combo.
I think the argument against hulk is that it can create undesirable game states. Since it was banned, a lot of new removal options and graveyard hate have surfaced, so maybe it's time to replicate the kokusho test with with card as well.
Painters Servant
Protean Hulk
Recurring Nightmare
Primeval Titan
Gifts Ungiven
And since its Christmas, all Phil wants for Christmas is Balance unbanned.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
A lot of that is just strong plays that already exist without Gifts.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
They are not game-breaking.
SP: oh god no.
I think that a lot of the issue with Prime Time was due to the legend rule at the time. Back when it was legal, if you were in blue you had almost no reason to not run clone effects. They were kill spells that bypassed every form of protection, and at the worst you could usually rely on PT. now that clones function as intended and without the loophole, they don't see as much play, and as such, I doubt we would see PT as centralizing as it was.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
I need something good to tutor my utility lands into play.
Plus it makes bounce lands good again and I like using bounce lands with PT.
I am perfectly fine with using it as a 6 mana sorcery that fetches 2 utility lands. Potential for more uses is nice, but not something I build my deck around abusing.
The clone issue is a good point. I find it more difficult to shove clones in all my blue decks now that they dont guarantee a removal of a commander. Which makes PT less likely to be clone chained.
Also black is getting more exile removal and more removal in general is moving to exile which also makes clone chains more likely. plus the argument about the better graveyard removal helps keep PT in check.
Liquid_water: It hasn't really changed the discussion at all. As far as hard bans, Balance is the top of the list. Limited Resources is pretty close and should be banned in every multiplayer format. I can't ever see us unbanning Biorhythm either. There is no way in hell Primeval Titan is getting unbanned. Cryogen, I dispute your assessment that there are fewer Clones running around; copying something awesome is always cheaper than casting it. Copy, clone, steal, is still an over-represented strategy IMO. Reintroducing Prime Time into that mix would just restart the devolution.
That means nothing. All that happened was that the over centralizing nature went to the next broken card. Basically, we are just totem pole banning at this stage. So unless Craterhoof Behemoth, Grave Titan, Koko, and Consecrated Sphinx are next on the agenda, there was no issue in multiple playgroups of just cloning/bribary the next best thing.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
I would love to see testing of a non-partial mulligan. One of my regular shops uses partial mulligans and the others don't. Games are shaped so profoundly by opening partial mulligans at that one shop that it's staggering.
I strongly advocate the abolition of the practice of partial mulligans and the shift to 100%-all-or-nothing-7-card mulligans. I urge you and other groups to test this practice.
EDIT: I guess the main problem is determining a process to allow players that need to mulligan to do so without opening the door for abuse from others. I guess that involves some manner of "qualifying" for the mulligan - like having a certain threshold of mana-producing lands - or some other method. People claim that the method most of my local shops use (No-partial, No-free, only a free full mulligan with a qualifying hand of 0,1,6 or 7 mana-producing lands) could encourage players to use fewer lands to encourage more of these mulligans. We've never seen that in any game, but if you limit the number of mulligans to two (and then you're stuck with that third mulligan) it should minimize abusive mulligans.
That's a pile of rules for a relatively complicated mulligan (at first).