No one in my playgroup liked any of these choices. We all think they're inconsistent and contradictory, however shine a light on how incompetent leaders of groups can be. Yet we have to abide by them. Because we play with several groups of players. Either we convince all players to let us play with banned cards, we swap out our cards every time we want to play with a different person (and keep in contact about each other's personal banned lists), or we all just follow the RC's rules. Which do you think is the easiest?
That's actually the POINT of the ban list, everyone who can't agree on a "personal" ban list have a set starting point. If there was no ban list how would you expect the multiple groups to exist. Why don't you think that would work now?
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I'm not advocating a destruction of the banned list (rather the the RC, but that's a different topic). I'm just calling out the excuse that the RC always gives "you could always just make your own banned list" - that rarely works. It almost tore apart my playgroup and I've heard stories likewise.
And back to my other point - which is the easiest and simplest? Which causes the least tension? Convincing player after player that primeval titan isn't that bad, and that the sol ring is worse? What if a player wanted to ban a Commander that someone else was playing? It's hard for them not to see it as a personal thing, as opposed to a banned list that everyone follows.
Banning Rofellos while unbanning Metalworker is just some kind of cruel joke to jab at green players more.
Just like when they banned Sylvan Primordial because it was broken with Deadeye Navigator. 6+ months later, Deadeye is still broken as hell and unbanned. Someone in charge of the list just doesn't like green and that's why green gets punished. You can't possibly convince me that Prime Time/Sylvan Primordial/Rofellos are oppressive but stuff like Deadeye Navigator/Sol Ring/Metalworker/Yawgmoth's Will aren't.
I loved Azusa, so much that I had to send her to Tahiti to live on the beach and just embrace the fact that mono-green wasn't as ok as the chain of things listed here. So I went back to the drawing board and went more broken than ever before, which was unfortunate because the whole reason I played Azusa was because I just did Snow Covered Forest + Creature most of the time, which is the opposite of what I do in every other format.
I find the attitudes on display here quite hilarious. The three strongest colors in this format each lost a very powerful card. Each still has thousands of cards available to play, many of them quite good, and each is still much better than the other two colors.
The attitude of those bemoaning the loss of Rofellos is particularly puzzling, because there are more cards that come close to duplicating his effect (though admittedly only close, as I don't think there is anything else exactly like him) than there are blue cards that duplicate Erayo or black cards that duplicate black Braids' effect. Green does not lack for ramp enablers.
But, as I said several pages back, before the change in the banned list was announced, I think some people go out of their way to look for things to complain about.
Me, I'm going to make changes in three of my decks and then go have fun playing some more EDH.
The attitude of those bemoaning the loss of Rofellos is particularly puzzling, because there are more cards that come close to duplicating his effect (though admittedly only close, as I don't think there is anything else exactly like him) than there are blue cards that duplicate Erayo or black cards that duplicate black Braids' effect. Green does not lack for ramp enablers.
Could you please elaborate on which black cards duplicate Braids effect? I am only aware of the abyss (oops does not do it) the which is very much out of my price range. I am aware of cards that make people sac creatures, or lands, or artifacts, but I not aware of which cards do both like Braids did at the same time. (Save for Smokestack which is NOT BLACK like you are saying).
As for the notion that we simply ignore the ban list... doesn't anyone play in commander tournaments at their LGS? Most of the time LGS's follow the ban list so they can have random drop in's from new people.
You (JWK) are free to lump everyone together and say we all have the same opinion, but anyone who read the above posts would know that many people have different feelings about each banned card. The one resounding thing most seem to say is that the ban update getting rid of "banned as a commander" had a largely negative impact with little positive upside.
No one, as far as I know, had any trouble with the current banlist in its double state.
Well, in my opinion, the hundreds to thousands of people on the internet who play commander and post about it are probably a larger sample size then the RC's armada games playgroup of what? A dozen?
I could not have illustrated the information-dissemination problem more perfectly.
Could you elaborate on this a little? Are you saying you have a much larger playgroup?
Could you please elaborate on which black cards duplicate Braids effect? I am only aware of the abyss (oops does not do it) the which is very much out of my price range. I am aware of cards that make people sac creatures, or lands, or artifacts, but I not aware of which cards do both like Braids did at the same time. (Save for Smokestack which is NOT BLACK like you are saying).
What I was saying was that I'm puzzled so many are so upset over Rofellos being banned, when Braids is in fact a much more unique card. Nothing quite duplicates what Braids does. In contrast, green still has piles of strong mana producers, several of which can easily go infinite with minimal or no effort, so I don't see Roofie Elf to be that big of a loss. My Rhys deck won't miss Rofellos at all, but my stax deck will definitely miss Braids.
You (JWK) are free to lump everyone together and say we all have the same opinion, but anyone who read the above posts would know that many people have different feelings about each banned card. The one resounding thing most seem to say is that the ban update getting rid of "banned as a commander" had a largely negative impact with little positive upside.
I don't see the demise of "banned as a commander" to be that big of a thing. I also don't think it needed to end, as it wasn't really complicated, and I'd have been fine with continuing to be able to play Braids, Rofellos and Erayo among the 99. Ultimately, though, the change is, in my opinion, not worth all the vitriol and angst being spouted in this thread. We lost a total of three cards from a huge pool of stuff. Admittedly, they were very good cards - and, I note yet again, I play each of the three now-banned cards among my decks - but we have more than enough toys remaining in the toybox. It's not like you have to run Craw Wurm in place of Rofellos or Catacomb Slug in place of Black Braids because green and black are so lacking in excellent cards.
I'm also personally disgusted with the amount of childish insults being tossed around in regard to the RC. People can disagree without all the attacks on the character and intelligence of a group of people who put a lot of time and effort into the health of this format without getting paid and despite all the crap others toss their way.
I don't personally know any of the RC, and I don't agree with them about a few things (I really think Iona needs to go). They still do a lot of good, though, and I think they deserve respect even when you happen to disagree with their decisions.
My problem with them banning Rofellos was that I bought two of the stupid things to play in Commander and now I have nowhere to play the card at all. How stupid is that.
Things like that happen any time anything is banned. What, you don't think Sheldon and a lot of other people were running Sylvan Primordial? Or that there were people pissed when Stoneforge Mystic got banned in Modern?
Besides, there are formats where you can still play Rofellos. Make a cube and toss him in there.
I've been on the fence about their competence for a while.
We're posting this early because the changes will be going into the Magic Online Beta shortly, and we didn't want that to happen unannounced. Hang in there, folks. This isn't nearly as big as it looks.
They just banned 3 cards from part of the 99 because they can now be used as commander and the list no longer distinguishes from commander or part of the 99.....
Also, let's look at Purphoros... he may be too strong as a commander, we have to ban him from the format. He's fine as part of the 99, but nope, we streamlined the list so he's gotta go. It's better and "easier" to under stand. It's not as flexible and logical as the old list.... but **** it, we said streamlined and some other buzz words :D.
That's what's stupid about this change. The discussion of banning a card as a commander or from the format is gone and just replaced with "ban it or not ban it."
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
You seem to be missing a look at the bigger picture.
No longer will a commander be deemed "too good to sit in the command zone, but as the 99 its not as impressive" it will either get the axe or not, so either insanely powerful commanders will never see the light of day in the format or oppressive commanders who under the old listing would be okay in the 99 will get the axe entirely just to cater to MTGO players. (because lets face it, there is no other reason to get rid of old list structure.)
Its becoming more and more clear that the format being governed by a handful on frankly out of touch people is bad for its health.
Yep, unprecedented popularity is pretty bad for the format's health.
My problem with them banning Rofellos was that I bought two of the stupid things to play in Commander and now I have nowhere to play the card at all. How stupid is that.
So? It's the nature of new sets getting released and cards getting banned that occasionally people will get burnt. It happens all the time, why should that have any bearing on the change? Sure, it sucks and you can be pissed by it, but that doesn't make it a bad decision unless you think they did it specifically to target you (I'm guessing they didn't).
I've been thinking about the update and here's my thoughts:
Metalworker unbanned: I'm pleased by this. For as long as I can remember on this thread, people have been largely in favor of unbanning him, and on our unoffical poll, out of the 500+ votes, only a quarter of them wanted to keep this card banned. I know Papa Funk said the RC didn't have influence from the poll, and I know it's a biased sample, but in my opinion it's a large enough sample size that it is of non-zero value. So to see the RC "listen" to us is a good thing, in my opinion.
"Problematic as a Commander" criteria: I have very mixed feelings on this. On the one hand I think this should have been looked at for a long time, and it probably was. But at the same time, there are lots of legendary creatures that function very differently in the Command Zone than they do in the 99, and I feel that the game could potentially suffer depending on how the elimination of the "Banned as a Commander" is played out from here out. Braids was the best example of a card that was fine in the 99 but broken as a Commander, and Kokusho showed us that some cards which were once thought too bad could be given a chance. While there are no cards that I would currently want to now ban based on this criteria (because there are no creatures I wanted banned just as a general before yesterday), I have complete faith in Wizards that they will eventually print another legendary creature which is too oppressive as a general but fine in the 99.
Braids/Erayo/Rofellos: I'm still sad about Erayo and Braids. I've played both and against both, and I have never seen them cause problems in the 99. As generals they absolutely need to remain banned, so I understand that with the Rules Committee's decision to eliminate the BaaC list they had to go. Rofellos I think is easier to get behind fully banning, and he isn't a direct comparison with Metalworker, so I disagree with all the comparisons and claims of hypocracy.
Kokusho: With all the unique generals mono-black has, I don't see her being much of a problem. As a general, she's pretty linear and boring, much like Child of Alara, and if you run her at the head of a deck you're projecting your intentions right away. She is also another card lots of people have wanted to unban, so if our voice was listened to even a little, I'm happy.
Overall, I'm reserved about this change. In the immediate, Braids and Erayo saw some but little play, so this doesn't hurt many. Rofellos will hurt more, but much like previous cards which were banned there will always be something else to slot instead. And Kokusho/Metalworker should make people happy. Now, much like Staff, we get to see whether freeing these two was wise or not.
On the one hand, I like that the RC is finally aware that online play exists, and it's affecting their decision making. Who knows, maybe someday they'll realize that online players can't modify the banlist, and they'll stop banning what they consider to be unfun cards (that actually are fun!)
On the other, I dislike that the basis for the ban was probably technical (MTGO can't handle banned as commander, so get rid of it). It speaks to both some undue influence wizards may have over the RC, and the crappy tech support online players can expect in the future with MTGO.
You can't tell me with all the money Wizards has they can't program a 'banned as commander' rule. If that's what actually drove this I would be VERY disappointed in the RC.
MTGO had absolutely zero to do with this change. Wizards did not ask for it, we never even thought to check on MTGO during the discussions. I have no idea if you can play Braids as a commander right now or not (though, I suspect not, since I have never heard anyone complain about this problem).
I am still trying to sort through my emotions of Rofellos being banned. This is the first time an update has given me worry that my feelings are just a knee-jerk reaction. I suppose it had to happen eventually.
As a friendly, knowledgeable, long-time player with many newer players coming into my regular shop, most of them get directed over to me and whatever table I'm playing on. I usually greet the new/potential player and provide a brief synopsis on the strange-looking variant of magic we are playing/about to play. After explaining the basics to a player, we'd have to cover some of the more detailed bits - like banned-as-a-commander.
I cannot begin to describe how that was a sticking point for nearly every new player we explained it to. It seemed that despite being new to the game and never having seen EDH being played before, they could tell that it was an odd rule to have. Incidentally, Rofellos was a major integral part of my Kamahl deck - one of the "fairer" decks I own and a favorite to loan out. I'm sad to see him go, because I *don't* cube - and now I have no use for him. But I'm glad that it'll make the game more friendly to new players. The new Mono-colored decks will hopefully continue this mission and allay the fears that it has to be a thousand-dollar-format.
So yeah, for years I've tested Metalworker live in Karn with my pals - and rare occasions he's busted. (He's probably going to be a lot more reliable in Arcum, Sharuum, Muzzio and Sydri decks - but statistically less explosive.) And I'm glad to see him come off the list - it doesn't effect most people's decks, but it's a huge boon to us silver players. I've campaigned for this thing for years - with actual testing (thanks to my group) and thoughtful, rational discussion - and I feel like that somehow the discussion that I helped raise online helped to generate this change. To me it's proof that the RC can listen - it might take a lot of work and time, but it is a possibility.
I'm still testing with my groups - and currently I'm playing a Chaos Orb in Karn that is a proxy for Perilous vault. I spend 4 and let the table decide if they want the proxy to hold - or if they'd like to bend the rules of EDH and rather just have the Orb. It's unlikely that the RC will ever move on the orb (Which I will argue was the most important artifact in the early history of the game) but it's fun to have found some sort of friendly way to enable it's halfway-existence.
After sleeping on it (and being much less upset about losing one of my favorite cards), I'm still very against the idea of getting rid of "Banned as a Commander", and I agree with what others have said. This can set a really bad precedent for legendary creatures being released in the future.
I honestly believe this is going to come up again, when wizards does print another legendary creature that would normally have been banned as a commander only. I can't agree with the change and am still extremely disappointed that it was made.
The amount of infantile petulance on this board is really over the top. So if you agree with the change, it's fine. But if your favorite cards were banned, it means that the RC is incompetent, stupid, out of touch, yada yada yada. C'mon guys. You're (probably) better than this. If have such strong opinions, try to express them without sounding like a child.
Anyway, as far as I'm concerned banning Rofellos was long overdue. As for the other changes..."banned as commander" wasn't exactly the toughest concept to grok. I'm ambivalent about everything else. I never saw black Braids or Erayo, and I doubt that many players I know even own a Metalworker. So for me personally, no big deal. For everyone else, I'd suggest you adapt, police yourselves, or at least voice your disapproval rationally.
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As a friendly, knowledgeable, long-time player with many newer players coming into my regular shop, most of them get directed over to me and whatever table I'm playing on. I usually greet the new/potential player and provide a brief synopsis on the strange-looking variant of magic we are playing/about to play. After explaining the basics to a player, we'd have to cover some of the more detailed bits - like banned-as-a-commander.
I cannot begin to describe how that was a sticking point for nearly every new player we explained it to. It seemed that despite being new to the game and never having seen EDH being played before, they could tell that it was an odd rule to have. Incidentally, Rofellos was a major integral part of my Kamahl deck - one of the "fairer" decks I own and a favorite to loan out. I'm sad to see him go, because I *don't* cube - and now I have no use for him. But I'm glad that it'll make the game more friendly to new players. The new Mono-colored decks will hopefully continue this mission and allay the fears that it has to be a thousand-dollar-format.
So yeah, for years I've tested Metalworker live in Karn with my pals - and rare occasions he's busted. (He's probably going to be a lot more reliable in Arcum, Sharuum, Muzzio and Sydri decks - but statistically less explosive.) And I'm glad to see him come off the list - it doesn't effect most people's decks, but it's a huge boon to us silver players. I've campaigned for this thing for years - with actual testing (thanks to my group) and thoughtful, rational discussion - and I feel like that somehow the discussion that I helped raise online helped to generate this change. To me it's proof that the RC can listen - it might take a lot of work and time, but it is a possibility.
I'm still testing with my groups - and currently I'm playing a Chaos Orb in Karn that is a proxy for Perilous vault. I spend 4 and let the table decide if they want the proxy to hold - or if they'd like to bend the rules of EDH and rather just have the Orb. It's unlikely that the RC will ever move on the orb (Which I will argue was the most important artifact in the early history of the game) but it's fun to have found some sort of friendly way to enable it's halfway-existance.
Hello Burntgerbill, long time since we chatted :).
I never got my playgroup to let me try out Metalworker, since it's banned and all, but im interested to see how this change will affect the format. Before Metalworker and Staff of Domination was a THING!Then they got banned, staff got later on unbanned, and now Metalworker gets unbanned.
Ok so Metalworker is gonna be sweet in my Karn deck, but it will be quite busted in for example monoblue decks, but lets see how it'll go :).
When it comes to Erayo, Rofellos and Braids, im not really sad about any of them leaving, but braids is quite the cool card, being 1 of the 99 in my Adun Oakenshield Oldborder decks. Rofellos.. i don't know, there's only one player that played him, and he mains elves, he's been playing elfs for 4-5 years i think, i bet his day sucked.
Erayo locked down the game once, and there's 1 player that runs her, no biggie really. I wonder how many will complain about Metalworker being in my deck >_>.
I thought that either Prophet, Deadeye Navigator or Palinchron would be banned, but mostly the latter 2, since they're only there for inf combos, especially Palinchron, that cards is just >_>.
Oh and Consecrated Sphinx, it's still legal, but it's on the down low really, there's 1-2 people that plays it. I've owned a couple since it was released, and i played with it for 5 months, then stopped using it.
I could not have illustrated the information-dissemination problem more perfectly.
Could you elaborate on this a little? Are you saying you have a much larger playgroup?
I live 3000 miles from Armada. I think the closest non-Sheldon member is about 2000 miles away. We're very public about this and have said on multiple occasions that the RC are scattered around and don't share playgroups. And yet people who post to the most trafficked Commander board (and thus are in the top .0something1 percent of Commander players in terms of information exposure) don't know this simple well-publicized fact.
Getting out information is much, much harder than people think.
I could not have illustrated the information-dissemination problem more perfectly.
Could you elaborate on this a little? Are you saying you have a much larger playgroup?
I live 3000 miles from Armada. I think the closest non-Sheldon member is about 2000 miles away. We're very public about this and have said on multiple occasions that the RC are scattered around and don't share playgroups. And yet people who post to the most trafficked Commander board (and thus are in the top .0something1 percent of Commander players in terms of information exposure) don't know this simple well-publicized fact.
Getting out information is much, much harder than people think.
IF i may say, i think it's good that you do not play in the same playgroup, you guys get a much wider perspective on the whole EDH scene. Not only that, as judges you get to play in different states and citys with different people at GPs, Pro Tours, Qualifiers and such, and that's a good thing. I've listened to some of your podcasts that you did a couple of times i think, and i've also read Sheldons articles on Starcitygames.
Im really interested as i mentioned before in my comment about the unbanning of Metalworker, im finally able to see how it works in my Karn deck.
Anyhow,i started playing EDH when Scarsblock was standard, Primeval Titan was legal, Consecrated Sphinx was and still is legal, and alot of games was got kinda anticlimactic, since everybody played green and blue, or they could reanimate then, copy them etc, i was quite pleased when Primetime got the bannhammer, sure i love it, it's one of my favourite cards, but what it did to those games was just urgh.
Sylvan Primordial was worse tho, destroyed noncreature permanents and moved you that much closer to a win, with one ETB. Imagine when a friend of mine cloned and reanimated him a couple of times (8 times! X_X).
I want to see what these new banns will do to the format, im kiiiinda sad about braids, but not much.
The way I see it, simplifying the commander list makes sense. There is a lot of confusion with the list and now it is much easier for players to understand was is and isn't allowed. That being said, I'm not sure if I get how Rofellos is banned, but Metalworker is unbanned. I am sad to see Braids go, she was a favorite in many stax lists. Erayo... does anyone even play her? Perhaps a couple. Kokusho as a general would be fun. Overall, the changes are fine. I think it'll take a little longer for cards such as Prophet of Kruphix to get banned.
I'm kind of annoyed that this means no more Braids, since she's both unique in her effect and perfectly balanced as a member of the 99. Will have to cut her from my Stax decklist
On the other hand, I like that Metalworker is unbanned. I don't really care about Rofellos since green has more than enough herpy ramp options and I have no particular opinion on Erayo.
And back to my other point - which is the easiest and simplest? Which causes the least tension? Convincing player after player that primeval titan isn't that bad, and that the sol ring is worse? What if a player wanted to ban a Commander that someone else was playing? It's hard for them not to see it as a personal thing, as opposed to a banned list that everyone follows.
I loved Azusa, so much that I had to send her to Tahiti to live on the beach and just embrace the fact that mono-green wasn't as ok as the chain of things listed here. So I went back to the drawing board and went more broken than ever before, which was unfortunate because the whole reason I played Azusa was because I just did Snow Covered Forest + Creature most of the time, which is the opposite of what I do in every other format.
Big Thanks to Xeno for sig art <3.
What the heck did you ever do when you DIDN'T draw Rofellos? Lose by default?
The attitude of those bemoaning the loss of Rofellos is particularly puzzling, because there are more cards that come close to duplicating his effect (though admittedly only close, as I don't think there is anything else exactly like him) than there are blue cards that duplicate Erayo or black cards that duplicate black Braids' effect. Green does not lack for ramp enablers.
But, as I said several pages back, before the change in the banned list was announced, I think some people go out of their way to look for things to complain about.
Me, I'm going to make changes in three of my decks and then go have fun playing some more EDH.
Could you please elaborate on which black cards duplicate Braids effect? I am only aware of the abyss (oops does not do it) the which is very much out of my price range. I am aware of cards that make people sac creatures, or lands, or artifacts, but I not aware of which cards do both like Braids did at the same time. (Save for Smokestack which is NOT BLACK like you are saying).
As for the notion that we simply ignore the ban list... doesn't anyone play in commander tournaments at their LGS? Most of the time LGS's follow the ban list so they can have random drop in's from new people.
You (JWK) are free to lump everyone together and say we all have the same opinion, but anyone who read the above posts would know that many people have different feelings about each banned card. The one resounding thing most seem to say is that the ban update getting rid of "banned as a commander" had a largely negative impact with little positive upside.
Could you elaborate on this a little? Are you saying you have a much larger playgroup?
:symr::symu::symb:Nicol Bolas Control: symr::symu::symb:
:symr::symg:Ruric Thar, the Unbowed Beatdown :gruul::symgr:
:symg::symb::symw:Karador, Ghost Chieftain Recursion Control :symw::symb::symg:
What I was saying was that I'm puzzled so many are so upset over Rofellos being banned, when Braids is in fact a much more unique card. Nothing quite duplicates what Braids does. In contrast, green still has piles of strong mana producers, several of which can easily go infinite with minimal or no effort, so I don't see Roofie Elf to be that big of a loss. My Rhys deck won't miss Rofellos at all, but my stax deck will definitely miss Braids.
I don't see the demise of "banned as a commander" to be that big of a thing. I also don't think it needed to end, as it wasn't really complicated, and I'd have been fine with continuing to be able to play Braids, Rofellos and Erayo among the 99. Ultimately, though, the change is, in my opinion, not worth all the vitriol and angst being spouted in this thread. We lost a total of three cards from a huge pool of stuff. Admittedly, they were very good cards - and, I note yet again, I play each of the three now-banned cards among my decks - but we have more than enough toys remaining in the toybox. It's not like you have to run Craw Wurm in place of Rofellos or Catacomb Slug in place of Black Braids because green and black are so lacking in excellent cards.
I'm also personally disgusted with the amount of childish insults being tossed around in regard to the RC. People can disagree without all the attacks on the character and intelligence of a group of people who put a lot of time and effort into the health of this format without getting paid and despite all the crap others toss their way.
I don't personally know any of the RC, and I don't agree with them about a few things (I really think Iona needs to go). They still do a lot of good, though, and I think they deserve respect even when you happen to disagree with their decisions.
Things like that happen any time anything is banned. What, you don't think Sheldon and a lot of other people were running Sylvan Primordial? Or that there were people pissed when Stoneforge Mystic got banned in Modern?
Besides, there are formats where you can still play Rofellos. Make a cube and toss him in there.
They just banned 3 cards from part of the 99 because they can now be used as commander and the list no longer distinguishes from commander or part of the 99.....
Also, let's look at Purphoros... he may be too strong as a commander, we have to ban him from the format. He's fine as part of the 99, but nope, we streamlined the list so he's gotta go. It's better and "easier" to under stand. It's not as flexible and logical as the old list.... but **** it, we said streamlined and some other buzz words :D.
That's what's stupid about this change. The discussion of banning a card as a commander or from the format is gone and just replaced with "ban it or not ban it."
Yep, unprecedented popularity is pretty bad for the format's health.
So? It's the nature of new sets getting released and cards getting banned that occasionally people will get burnt. It happens all the time, why should that have any bearing on the change? Sure, it sucks and you can be pissed by it, but that doesn't make it a bad decision unless you think they did it specifically to target you (I'm guessing they didn't).
I've been thinking about the update and here's my thoughts:
Metalworker unbanned: I'm pleased by this. For as long as I can remember on this thread, people have been largely in favor of unbanning him, and on our unoffical poll, out of the 500+ votes, only a quarter of them wanted to keep this card banned. I know Papa Funk said the RC didn't have influence from the poll, and I know it's a biased sample, but in my opinion it's a large enough sample size that it is of non-zero value. So to see the RC "listen" to us is a good thing, in my opinion.
"Problematic as a Commander" criteria: I have very mixed feelings on this. On the one hand I think this should have been looked at for a long time, and it probably was. But at the same time, there are lots of legendary creatures that function very differently in the Command Zone than they do in the 99, and I feel that the game could potentially suffer depending on how the elimination of the "Banned as a Commander" is played out from here out. Braids was the best example of a card that was fine in the 99 but broken as a Commander, and Kokusho showed us that some cards which were once thought too bad could be given a chance. While there are no cards that I would currently want to now ban based on this criteria (because there are no creatures I wanted banned just as a general before yesterday), I have complete faith in Wizards that they will eventually print another legendary creature which is too oppressive as a general but fine in the 99.
Braids/Erayo/Rofellos: I'm still sad about Erayo and Braids. I've played both and against both, and I have never seen them cause problems in the 99. As generals they absolutely need to remain banned, so I understand that with the Rules Committee's decision to eliminate the BaaC list they had to go. Rofellos I think is easier to get behind fully banning, and he isn't a direct comparison with Metalworker, so I disagree with all the comparisons and claims of hypocracy.
Kokusho: With all the unique generals mono-black has, I don't see her being much of a problem. As a general, she's pretty linear and boring, much like Child of Alara, and if you run her at the head of a deck you're projecting your intentions right away. She is also another card lots of people have wanted to unban, so if our voice was listened to even a little, I'm happy.
Overall, I'm reserved about this change. In the immediate, Braids and Erayo saw some but little play, so this doesn't hurt many. Rofellos will hurt more, but much like previous cards which were banned there will always be something else to slot instead. And Kokusho/Metalworker should make people happy. Now, much like Staff, we get to see whether freeing these two was wise or not.
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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On the one hand, I like that the RC is finally aware that online play exists, and it's affecting their decision making. Who knows, maybe someday they'll realize that online players can't modify the banlist, and they'll stop banning what they consider to be unfun cards (that actually are fun!)
On the other, I dislike that the basis for the ban was probably technical (MTGO can't handle banned as commander, so get rid of it). It speaks to both some undue influence wizards may have over the RC, and the crappy tech support online players can expect in the future with MTGO.
The Rules Committee has stated that MTGO had nothing to do with the ban list update. Whether you choose to believe them or not is your prerogative, but that is what they said.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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I cannot begin to describe how that was a sticking point for nearly every new player we explained it to. It seemed that despite being new to the game and never having seen EDH being played before, they could tell that it was an odd rule to have. Incidentally, Rofellos was a major integral part of my Kamahl deck - one of the "fairer" decks I own and a favorite to loan out. I'm sad to see him go, because I *don't* cube - and now I have no use for him. But I'm glad that it'll make the game more friendly to new players. The new Mono-colored decks will hopefully continue this mission and allay the fears that it has to be a thousand-dollar-format.
So yeah, for years I've tested Metalworker live in Karn with my pals - and rare occasions he's busted. (He's probably going to be a lot more reliable in Arcum, Sharuum, Muzzio and Sydri decks - but statistically less explosive.) And I'm glad to see him come off the list - it doesn't effect most people's decks, but it's a huge boon to us silver players. I've campaigned for this thing for years - with actual testing (thanks to my group) and thoughtful, rational discussion - and I feel like that somehow the discussion that I helped raise online helped to generate this change. To me it's proof that the RC can listen - it might take a lot of work and time, but it is a possibility.
I'm still testing with my groups - and currently I'm playing a Chaos Orb in Karn that is a proxy for Perilous vault. I spend 4 and let the table decide if they want the proxy to hold - or if they'd like to bend the rules of EDH and rather just have the Orb. It's unlikely that the RC will ever move on the orb (Which I will argue was the most important artifact in the early history of the game) but it's fun to have found some sort of friendly way to enable it's halfway-existence.
I honestly believe this is going to come up again, when wizards does print another legendary creature that would normally have been banned as a commander only. I can't agree with the change and am still extremely disappointed that it was made.
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Anyway, as far as I'm concerned banning Rofellos was long overdue. As for the other changes..."banned as commander" wasn't exactly the toughest concept to grok. I'm ambivalent about everything else. I never saw black Braids or Erayo, and I doubt that many players I know even own a Metalworker. So for me personally, no big deal. For everyone else, I'd suggest you adapt, police yourselves, or at least voice your disapproval rationally.
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Hello Burntgerbill, long time since we chatted :).
I never got my playgroup to let me try out Metalworker, since it's banned and all, but im interested to see how this change will affect the format. Before Metalworker and Staff of Domination was a THING!Then they got banned, staff got later on unbanned, and now Metalworker gets unbanned.
Ok so Metalworker is gonna be sweet in my Karn deck, but it will be quite busted in for example monoblue decks, but lets see how it'll go :).
When it comes to Erayo, Rofellos and Braids, im not really sad about any of them leaving, but braids is quite the cool card, being 1 of the 99 in my Adun Oakenshield Oldborder decks. Rofellos.. i don't know, there's only one player that played him, and he mains elves, he's been playing elfs for 4-5 years i think, i bet his day sucked.
Erayo locked down the game once, and there's 1 player that runs her, no biggie really. I wonder how many will complain about Metalworker being in my deck >_>.
I thought that either Prophet, Deadeye Navigator or Palinchron would be banned, but mostly the latter 2, since they're only there for inf combos, especially Palinchron, that cards is just >_>.
Oh and Consecrated Sphinx, it's still legal, but it's on the down low really, there's 1-2 people that plays it. I've owned a couple since it was released, and i played with it for 5 months, then stopped using it.
Who needs Colours?
My most played EDH deck:
X Kozilek, the Great Distortion
UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer
I live 3000 miles from Armada. I think the closest non-Sheldon member is about 2000 miles away. We're very public about this and have said on multiple occasions that the RC are scattered around and don't share playgroups. And yet people who post to the most trafficked Commander board (and thus are in the top .0something1 percent of Commander players in terms of information exposure) don't know this simple well-publicized fact.
Getting out information is much, much harder than people think.
IF i may say, i think it's good that you do not play in the same playgroup, you guys get a much wider perspective on the whole EDH scene. Not only that, as judges you get to play in different states and citys with different people at GPs, Pro Tours, Qualifiers and such, and that's a good thing. I've listened to some of your podcasts that you did a couple of times i think, and i've also read Sheldons articles on Starcitygames.
Im really interested as i mentioned before in my comment about the unbanning of Metalworker, im finally able to see how it works in my Karn deck.
Anyhow,i started playing EDH when Scarsblock was standard, Primeval Titan was legal, Consecrated Sphinx was and still is legal, and alot of games was got kinda anticlimactic, since everybody played green and blue, or they could reanimate then, copy them etc, i was quite pleased when Primetime got the bannhammer, sure i love it, it's one of my favourite cards, but what it did to those games was just urgh.
Sylvan Primordial was worse tho, destroyed noncreature permanents and moved you that much closer to a win, with one ETB. Imagine when a friend of mine cloned and reanimated him a couple of times (8 times! X_X).
I want to see what these new banns will do to the format, im kiiiinda sad about braids, but not much.
Who needs Colours?
My most played EDH deck:
X Kozilek, the Great Distortion
UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Epic Signature by the one and only Ace in Ace of Spades Studio
Proud member of the Spirit of EDH
BGW Teneb, the Harvester [Primer]
R Márton Stromgald
WUB Dakkon Blackblade
GR Atarka, World Render
{Writing and Rants}
WUBRG The Primeval Dragon's influence on EDH
On the other hand, I like that Metalworker is unbanned. I don't really care about Rofellos since green has more than enough herpy ramp options and I have no particular opinion on Erayo.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
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