Power can be gauged in a competitive environment. At least as far as a single card dominates a format based on information gathered through tournaments. There's no such information gathering that takes place with MP Commander and therein lies the issue. You can't even make a competitive format based around MP due to the ability of playing kingmaker or other political forms of play. So we have no data gathering, outside of anecdote, and no way to effectively setup a scenario to gather that data even if we desired too. So no feasible criteria can be set. At what point do you say any banlist doesn't make sense in such a format?
It is the combination with Flash it opens up a lot more answers to save Prophet along with giving you way more things to do with the mana that uptaps on a single card.
I don't think it should be banned but that is why.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
That's what I was getting at. Their website flat out says they don't cater to competitive play. That's why the quote Donald found and likewise the banning of Gifts and Hulk (among others) just confounds me.
That quote is like 8 years old at this point, and pretty outdated. Hulk was a problem everywhere, so we banned it.
When we revamped the criteria and pulled off Staff and Worldgorger, I advocated for pulling Hulk off too. We tested it in a lot of groups and the results were pretty universal - it made casual games miserable, even when folks weren't trying to abuse it. Which is sad, because it's a cool card.
from what I've seen, it meets the ban criteria. It centralizes games, wracks up too much advantage too fast, and makes the game not enjoyable for everyone else unless it gets exiled immediately.
It also gets cloned and reanimated and all the same crap we see with broken creatures. It's just annoying. And it's usually dropped with gas in hand to protect it and draw into more cards.
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That's what I was getting at. Their website flat out says they don't cater to competitive play. That's why the quote Donald found and likewise the banning of Gifts and Hulk (among others) just confounds me.
That quote is like 8 years old at this point, and pretty outdated. Hulk was a problem everywhere, so we banned it.
When we revamped the criteria and pulled off Staff and Worldgorger, I advocated for pulling Hulk off too. We tested it in a lot of groups and the results were pretty universal - it made casual games miserable, even when folks weren't trying to abuse it. Which is sad, because it's a cool card.
Metalworker is a meh card, kinda like the 1000's of other meh cards in magic. plz unban.
But seriously, when's the last time your group tested metalworker. The card is pretty meh.
That's what I was getting at. Their website flat out says they don't cater to competitive play. That's why the quote Donald found and likewise the banning of Gifts and Hulk (among others) just confounds me.
That quote is like 8 years old at this point, and pretty outdated. Hulk was a problem everywhere, so we banned it.
When we revamped the criteria and pulled off Staff and Worldgorger, I advocated for pulling Hulk off too. We tested it in a lot of groups and the results were pretty universal - it made casual games miserable, even when folks weren't trying to abuse it. Which is sad, because it's a cool card.
Can you go into any more detail? What miserable things were people doing? Because without any build around I have to think that your average board wipe turned him into a utility creature (probably Prime Time when you conducted your testing).
thats not really a good reason for having them unbanned (though i'm not gonna argue for their banning). i think if a 'bad' player gets a god-hand of t1 sol ring, mana cryptmana vaultgilded lotus or whatever god-hand one can sculpt, it'd probably lead to the bad player being pummelled by the other players on the table.
thats not really a good reason for having them unbanned (though i'm not gonna argue for their banning). i think if a 'bad' player gets a god-hand of t1 sol ring, mana cryptmana vaultgilded lotus or whatever god-hand one can sculpt, it'd probably lead to the bad player being pummelled by the other players on the table.
Except if he cast Sylvan Primordial the next turn.
(ye ye banned, just an example of the olden days)
EDIT: before anyone replies, this is in no way meant to be a good argument nor the start of any discussion
That's what I was getting at. Their website flat out says they don't cater to competitive play. That's why the quote Donald found and likewise the banning of Gifts and Hulk (among others) just confounds me.
That quote is like 8 years old at this point, and pretty outdated. Hulk was a problem everywhere, so we banned it.
When we revamped the criteria and pulled off Staff and Worldgorger, I advocated for pulling Hulk off too. We tested it in a lot of groups and the results were pretty universal - it made casual games miserable, even when folks weren't trying to abuse it. Which is sad, because it's a cool card.
Any chance you could elaborate on how exactly it made games miserable? Like what did people do with it that made the games so bad? If you're not building around abusing it, I can't see it really being that much different then something like Defense of the Heart, except it's easier to trigger, but also has more restrictions on what you can get. In a lot of situations it seems like it would just function as a Chord of Calling for X=6.
Having run it in my Cube, the only time I heard complaints about it was when someone got out Kiki-jiki, Mirror Breaker at the same time and was repeatedly making self-sacrificial copies.
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It's probably in the same vein as Griselbrand. (a bit)
People say they don't want to use it for cutthroat applications, but the card just tends to go in that direction. Theory < Playtesting. So IMO, test it out and see what happens. But don't hold back on purpose.
Honestly, I think it was banned because Flash/Hulk had just torn up the Eternal Scene post the Flash un-errata, leading to Flash getting banned in Legacy and restricted in Vintage. With that deck fresh on everyone's mind, people turned to EDH and tried to replicate the same effect.
I personally don't think it's a huge problem. Certainly no more so than Tooth and Nail.
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The card is extremely centralizing. Any game with Sylvan Primordial becomes "who can get to Sylvan Primordial fastest", and then "Who can Clone/flicker Sylvan Primordial more times, and if you aren't doing that at all then good luck having lands".
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If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
And everyone knows the dominant UG strategy is Lands.
But seriously, I haven't found Prophet to be THAT much of a problem on its own.
If you kill it the turn they drop it, it does nothing for them.
It's only really oppressive when combined with mass draw, repeatable counters (Forbid with draw backup, Spell Blast, etc), or other really strong buyback or activated abilities (Dead-Eye Navigator + a good soulbond, Capsize, etc)
And honestly, at the point where the blue green player has a ton of mana and a pile of cards in hand, you're in trouble regardless.
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I'm curious to see what the format would be like without DEN or Prophet (not necessarily both at the same time). Before Prime Time was banned the community was really divided about it just like we are now, and once it got banned a lot of people voiced their opinion that it was a stupid ban. But after a fee months without PT people realized that the format was more diverse. I'm curious if we have a similar scenario with Prophet.
I'm curious to see what the format would be like without DEN or Prophet (not necessarily both at the same time). Before Prime Time was banned the community was really divided about it just like we are now, and once it got banned a lot of people voiced their opinion that it was a stupid ban. But after a fee months without PT people realized that the format was more diverse. I'm curious if we have a similar scenario with Prophet.
There is pretty much 0 of both of these cards where I play. They'd just die from spot removal before anything crazy happens.
QFT
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
Too much stuff jammed onto one card. Prophet vs Seedborn is like Grizzly Bears vs Fauna Shaman. It's like putting Yawgmoth's Bargain on a 7/7 flying, lifelink body.
It's great, sure, but I still prefer Seedborn Muse, mostly because activated abilities and counter mana are what it gets used for the most anyways.
Yeah, but Seedborn requires some building around. Prophet is a self-enabling card.
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yes
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V
Do you run creatures and/or instants?
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Yes
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V
Your deck would be better with Prophet
That quote is like 8 years old at this point, and pretty outdated. Hulk was a problem everywhere, so we banned it.
When we revamped the criteria and pulled off Staff and Worldgorger, I advocated for pulling Hulk off too. We tested it in a lot of groups and the results were pretty universal - it made casual games miserable, even when folks weren't trying to abuse it. Which is sad, because it's a cool card.
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Clan Representativefrom what I've seen, it meets the ban criteria. It centralizes games, wracks up too much advantage too fast, and makes the game not enjoyable for everyone else unless it gets exiled immediately.
It also gets cloned and reanimated and all the same crap we see with broken creatures. It's just annoying. And it's usually dropped with gas in hand to protect it and draw into more cards.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Metalworker is a meh card, kinda like the 1000's of other meh cards in magic. plz unban.
But seriously, when's the last time your group tested metalworker. The card is pretty meh.
Can you go into any more detail? What miserable things were people doing? Because without any build around I have to think that your average board wipe turned him into a utility creature (probably Prime Time when you conducted your testing).
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Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Except if he cast Sylvan Primordial the next turn.
(ye ye banned, just an example of the olden days)
EDIT: before anyone replies, this is in no way meant to be a good argument nor the start of any discussion
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Any chance you could elaborate on how exactly it made games miserable? Like what did people do with it that made the games so bad? If you're not building around abusing it, I can't see it really being that much different then something like Defense of the Heart, except it's easier to trigger, but also has more restrictions on what you can get. In a lot of situations it seems like it would just function as a Chord of Calling for X=6.
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People say they don't want to use it for cutthroat applications, but the card just tends to go in that direction.
Theory < Playtesting. So IMO, test it out and see what happens. But don't hold back on purpose.
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StaffI personally don't think it's a huge problem. Certainly no more so than Tooth and Nail.
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speaking of can anybody explain to me why sylvan primordial is banned?
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Prophet of Kruphix is only good in U/G decks with spells.
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StaffBut seriously, I haven't found Prophet to be THAT much of a problem on its own.
If you kill it the turn they drop it, it does nothing for them.
It's only really oppressive when combined with mass draw, repeatable counters (Forbid with draw backup, Spell Blast, etc), or other really strong buyback or activated abilities (Dead-Eye Navigator + a good soulbond, Capsize, etc)
And honestly, at the point where the blue green player has a ton of mana and a pile of cards in hand, you're in trouble regardless.
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It seems like people are just tired of seeing it in every U/G deck ever. Not sure it's ban-worthy.
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There is pretty much 0 of both of these cards where I play. They'd just die from spot removal before anything crazy happens.
Also regarding the low-mana wins with gifts ungiven, you could grab hermit druid, lightning mauler, unearth, and noxious revival. It only costs 5 mana total. (This discussion was a bunch of pages back)
BBB Two Hundred Zombies BBB
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WR
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BR
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