You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I think the real problem with this discussion is the binary distinction between those two things it always falls into.
There is no clearly defined split between casual and not EDH players 99% of the people who I have started games with from people playing unsleeved precons to thousands of dollars foiled out the ass insanity they all want to win, sure you can point to those two examples as the extremes but that leaves the majority of us floating in the middle.
So trying to create a playing field based on the whims of either of those extremes is utterly foolish because it misses most of the players.
Sliding Scales are cool hell I have a sliding scale myself as I move from deck to deck to deck.
Anyway, I view Duel as an outlet for my hyper-competitive tendencies so that I can play casually in "regular" EDH. I'm a much happier player for it.
I have some friends that scratch that itch with Legacy and then play EDH "regularly" as well.
You're much happier for it because you're doing it right.
Took a long time to realize that. I think it would help the format as a whole if people would try out having a vent for competitive play. It's those who only play one kind of EDH that really seem to cause issues in my experience (both casual and competitive). I know, I was one of them.
Which Enchants? Because there are a handful of really good ones.
Skybind, for instance is one of those decks that no one seems to give credit where its due; With Heliod out, pay 2WW, get a 2/1 chump blocker (Honestly, if you aren't running Anthems in Heliod, you're doing it wrong, but whatever), chump a dude, Exile another until EoT, and then untap during your turn.
One time a Braids in our playgroup got Blightsteel Colossus out turn 4, I had an early Skybind out (Due to Card-That-Shall-Not-Be-Banned), and I was able to hold her off while the rest of the group slowly killed her. Anecdotal, but still awesome.
You didn't name a single card that would make the cut in any of my decks. I suppose if I thought Mono-white was remotely viable I might find Theros useful, but even then it's competing against 20 years of enchantments.
...and Serra's really isn't that far behind with Theros and its Enchantment Creatures/Artifacts these days.
Seriously? The enchantment artifacts get a fair bit of play, and a handful of the enchantment creatures are okay, but I think I've seen Bestow creatures played in EDH a grand total of three times outside the couple of ones that have earned spots in my Krond and Geist decks.
Show me a build that can pump out enchantments as quickly and in numbers as a Rhys deck can pump out creatures, and then maybe this argument can be taken seriously.
And yes, I do play Sanctum, in Krond and in Geist.
Which Enchants? Because there are a handful of really good ones.
Skybind, for instance is one of those decks that no one seems to give credit where its due; With Heliod out, pay 2WW, get a 2/1 chump blocker (Honestly, if you aren't running Anthems in Heliod, you're doing it wrong, but whatever), chump a dude, Exile another until EoT, and then untap during your turn.
One time a Braids in our playgroup got Blightsteel Colossus out turn 4, I had an early Skybind out (Due to Card-That-Shall-Not-Be-Banned), and I was able to hold her off while the rest of the group slowly killed her. Anecdotal, but still awesome.
You didn't name a single card that would make the cut in any of my decks. I suppose if I thought Mono-white was remotely viable I might find Theros useful, but even then it's competing against 20 years of enchantments.
I will say, Skybind is pretty good. I was dubious, but saw it might have potential, and I've been pleasantly surprised at how good it has turned out to be most of the time I've played it. It has been a major factor in several wins with my Krond deck, some very close, some complete blow-outs.
I think I've seen Bestow creatures played in EDH a grand total of three times outside the couple of ones that have earned spots in my Krond and Geist decks.
Nighthowler is fantastic in my Jarad deck. Also, there are some enchantment creatures like Courser of Kruphix which do not have Bestow. Still, I agree that it is many times more difficult to pump out enchantments than it is artifacts or creatures though, and that Academy and Cradle are vastly more powerful than Sanctum.
Arguing that a card is "goodstuff" in the case of PoK is fallacious as there are countless other cards that are also considered "goodstuff". Just look at all the Top 50 lists for each color. Cards that are on those lists are commonly plugged into any deck that they share a color with. They are called staples. People are more than free to choose not to run them in their decks and build for a more thematic and synergistic decklist, but by no means does a card being straight "goodstuff" make it a bannable offender to the spirit of the format.
I think I've seen Bestow creatures played in EDH a grand total of three times outside the couple of ones that have earned spots in my Krond and Geist decks.
Nighthowler is fantastic in my Jarad deck. Also, there are some enchantment creatures like Courser of Kruphix which do not have Bestow. Still, I agree that it is many times more difficult to pump out enchantments than it is artifacts or creatures though, and that Academy and Cradle are vastly more powerful than Sanctum.
Ok, so it's Serra's isn't as good in most general decks, but in a Heliod, God of the Sun deck with Wraths and plenty of enchantments, it surely pulls its own weight.
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Ok, so it's Serra's isn't as good in most general decks, but in a Heliod, God of the Sun deck with Wraths and plenty of enchantments, it surely pulls its own weight.
So why did you bring it up in a discussion about the ban list?
Ok, so it's Serra's isn't as good in most general decks, but in a Heliod, God of the Sun deck with Wraths and plenty of enchantments, it surely pulls its own weight.
So why did you bring it up in a discussion about the ban list?
Because this thread is basically "discuss a card" at times.
Back on topic, I think Kokusho, the Evening Star would probably be OK to be allowed as a commander. If I am not seeing something here please correct me, but Chainer, Dementia Master seems like a much stronger general, and I wouldn't consider him ban-worthy.
I would also agree that Kokusho could be unbanned as a general. While the ability to keep him from getting exiled as a commander is useful, he is not threatening enough as a general and tends to be used to greater effect as one of the 99. As stated by Xoth, a deck with Chainer at the helm will make more degenerate use of Koko than running him in the command zone outside of a very dedicated build. The same could be said for Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed or any other general with black in it that you can build a recursive reanimation strategy around. I think Koko had to get unbanned because Gray Merchant of Asphodel is a card, and is a better target than Koko more often than not, especially in the later game. Koko staying banned as a general only makes sense if the RC is trying to make a statement about not wanting to see narrow, one trick pony decks that have to be specifically built in a very linear manner to abuse the general. I agree that those decks are boring, but due to the social nature of EDH, that can essentially be policed internally within a playgroup.
Personally I don't really care if Koko can be used as a general, but I don't think it would hurt the format if he was permitted. I look at him kind of like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker where being in the 99 is more effective than in the command zone in most situations. He has a place in my Chainer deck, but he'll never take the helm.
Arguing that a card is "goodstuff" in the case of PoK is fallacious as there are countless other cards that are also considered "goodstuff". Just look at all the Top 50 lists for each color. Cards that are on those lists are commonly plugged into any deck that they share a color with. They are called staples. People are more than free to choose not to run them in their decks and build for a more thematic and synergistic decklist, but by no means does a card being straight "goodstuff" make it a bannable offender to the spirit of the format.
Well, it's not really "fallacious" since the card is, in fact, a good card. But I get what you mean there.
The point is not that PoK is just "goodstuff," the point is that it is too large a concentration of abilities that it mimics the effects of multiple-card setup and, as such, becomes a huge target for everyone to take. The games degenerate into a race to see who gets to keep the PoK. Too much power on one card does this. I've seen it mentioned multiple times that if PT only grabbed basics, it would not have been such a target; I'd have to agree with that.
Basically, what I'm saying is that it is ban-worthy because it becomes the focus in nearly every game in which it appears.
Personally I don't really care if Koko can be used as a general, but I don't think it would hurt the format if he was permitted. I look at him kind of like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker where being in the 99 is more effective than in the command zone in most situations. He has a place in my Chainer deck, but he'll never take the helm.
This is quite true. I don't think I'd really want to run Koko as a general simply because that makes it obvious what my deck is aiming to do. I run Chainer too and Koko is 100% better in the 99.
We tested Kokusho out as a commander 12-18 months ago and I figured that I would be all on board for unbanning him as a general. My playgroup uses good graveyard protection, graveyard recursion, and all the things that people list when they talk about why Koko isn't ban-worthy. So, we sat down to see what would happen and it was hands down the most degenerate centralized 5-8 games of EDH I've ever played. Having him in the command zone meant that the exile ***** didn't work (obviously), but it also meant that EVERY SINGLE GAME forced us to deal with Kokusho - the entire table took their focus away from the game and directed it at Kokusho. It was literally an entire evening of us trying to figure out how to A) Stop Koko, or B) Steal/Clone Koko. Nothing else in the game mattered as long as we were winning the Kokusho race.
I am all about letting as many terrible "makes the whiny kids' ********s pucker" cards free to the public, but after testing I cannot imagine a general EDH metagame with Kokusho in the command zone.
Ok, so it's Serra's isn't as good in most general decks, but in a Heliod, God of the Sun deck with Wraths and plenty of enchantments, it surely pulls its own weight.
So why did you bring it up in a discussion about the ban list?
We tested Kokusho out as a commander 12-18 months ago and I figured that I would be all on board for unbanning him as a general. My playgroup uses good graveyard protection, graveyard recursion, and all the things that people list when they talk about why Koko isn't ban-worthy. So, we sat down to see what would happen and it was hands down the most degenerate centralized 5-8 games of EDH I've ever played. Having him in the command zone meant that the exile ***** didn't work (obviously), but it also meant that EVERY SINGLE GAME forced us to deal with Kokusho - the entire table took their focus away from the game and directed it at Kokusho. It was literally an entire evening of us trying to figure out how to A) Stop Koko, or B) Steal/Clone Koko. Nothing else in the game mattered as long as we were winning the Kokusho race.
I am all about letting as many terrible "makes the whiny kids' ********s pucker" cards free to the public, but after testing I cannot imagine a general EDH metagame with Kokusho in the command zone.
Why were you trying to steal Koko Puffs, though?
A) He steals health, giving him a high life total; Commander Damage don't care.
B) Sure, 20 life swing (15 to him, 5 from you) is a lot, but it's not insurmountable for 3 people.
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We tested Kokusho out as a commander 12-18 months ago and I figured that I would be all on board for unbanning him as a general. My playgroup uses good graveyard protection, graveyard recursion, and all the things that people list when they talk about why Koko isn't ban-worthy. So, we sat down to see what would happen and it was hands down the most degenerate centralized 5-8 games of EDH I've ever played. Having him in the command zone meant that the exile ***** didn't work (obviously), but it also meant that EVERY SINGLE GAME forced us to deal with Kokusho - the entire table took their focus away from the game and directed it at Kokusho. It was literally an entire evening of us trying to figure out how to A) Stop Koko, or B) Steal/Clone Koko. Nothing else in the game mattered as long as we were winning the Kokusho race.
I am all about letting as many terrible "makes the whiny kids' ********s pucker" cards free to the public, but after testing I cannot imagine a general EDH metagame with Kokusho in the command zone.
I just wonder if that's any worse than a well-tuned Sharuum or Arcum deck. But, like I said, I'm ambivalent. I wouldn't like him in my command zone.
A) He steals health, giving him a high life total; Commander Damage don't care.
B) Sure, 20 life swing (15 to him, 5 from you) is a lot, but it's not insurmountable for 3 people.
Because it was one of the ways we could deal with him. If I stole it with a Coffin Queen then it was my turn to do stuff with him. Really though, it was a scramble to figure out how to use Koko to offset the loss of life from earlier manifestations of Koko. I'd say, on average, we saw a copy of Kokusho enter the battlefield 12-15 times a game.
I just wonder if that's any worse than a well-tuned Sharuum or Arcum deck. But, like I said, I'm ambivalent. I wouldn't like him in my command zone.
As far as how powerful it is... no. Not even close. But in terms of how the entire table focuses on 1 card and largely ignores the other 399 unless they are a means to take advantage of Kokusho, yes. When the rules committee talks about "centralizing" this is what they are talking about.
So what you're saying is that when you had a group of like-minded people to play with, you had fun. When you went to a new group that approached the game differently, you didn't have fun. It sounds like the format is working as intended in those cases.
If I were to play Standard anywhere around the world, I would get the same kind of game. Maybe I'm way better than them, but after the game they'll say "good game!" and I'll offer them suggestions on how to improve their deck or point out play mistakes they made. In this "format", I'll be banned from playing with them. It's a bad philosophy to promote. See sig.
That's perfectly fine, you just need to find a different playgroup. The problems you had there had nothing to do with the ban list or Sol Ring, just a difference in philosophy when it comes to EDH.
Sol Ring was causing problems with the competitive group even more than the casual one. It literally did just come down to whoever got Sol Ring won the game. I'm not exaggerating when I say that. Other competitive players, Jusstice and moxnix, found this to be the same.
I cannot find another playgroup, there's one LGS here. If the format promoted an 'improve when you lose' philosophy instead of a gentleman's contract to NOT improve past a certain point, I could play the same deck anywhere I went and there wouldn't be this weird schism.
You are aware that this isn't Jusstice and moxnix's banlist thread right?
Just because certain posters play in an especially cutthroat environment doesn't make their view point matter anymore than anyone who can properly argue why a card should or should not be banned (I just wanted to see if anyone else felt the same way as I did with SoFaF; nobody did so I'm in the wrong in terms of thinking that the fact that it's in every single deck, every ******* where is a problem)
At the end of the day, Commander/EDH is not a competitive format in the same way that other Constructed and Limited formats are, generally speaking. If you want to ban Sol Ring find other people that feel the same way and let it be; the rest of us will follow the actual ban list because not everybody is a spike.
I just wanted to see if anyone else felt the same way as I did with SoFaF; nobody did so I'm in the wrong in terms of thinking that the fact that it's in every single deck, every ******* where is a problem
I kind of see where you're coming from about it being in most decks, as it definitely is one of the best equipment in the format. But that doesn't make it too much different from cards like Sensei's Divining Top and the always aforementioned Sol Ring that are also in every deck. Is it an extremely popular, colorless staple? For sure. But that doesn't really warrant banning. The fact that it does literally nothing by itself and requires connecting with a player to get most of its effect is also a pretty big consideration.
It's fine to dislike a card, and convincing people to not play with it, or other staples, for a few games is something that a lot of groups could benefit from every now and then.
Ok, so it's Serra's isn't as good in most general decks, but in a Heliod, God of the Sun deck with Wraths and plenty of enchantments, it surely pulls its own weight.
So why did you bring it up in a discussion about the ban list?
We tested Kokusho out as a commander 12-18 months ago and I figured that I would be all on board for unbanning him as a general. My playgroup uses good graveyard protection, graveyard recursion, and all the things that people list when they talk about why Koko isn't ban-worthy. So, we sat down to see what would happen and it was hands down the most degenerate centralized 5-8 games of EDH I've ever played. Having him in the command zone meant that the exile ***** didn't work (obviously), but it also meant that EVERY SINGLE GAME forced us to deal with Kokusho - the entire table took their focus away from the game and directed it at Kokusho. It was literally an entire evening of us trying to figure out how to A) Stop Koko, or B) Steal/Clone Koko. Nothing else in the game mattered as long as we were winning the Kokusho race.
I am all about letting as many terrible "makes the whiny kids' ********s pucker" cards free to the public, but after testing I cannot imagine a general EDH metagame with Kokusho in the command zone.
Why were you trying to steal Koko Puffs, though?
A) He steals health, giving him a high life total; Commander Damage don't care.
B) Sure, 20 life swing (15 to him, 5 from you) is a lot, but it's not insurmountable for 3 people.
The problem wiht kokusho is when he's constantly looped over and over again. a 20 life swing once isn't much. A 20 life swing done multiple turns in a row is.
However, I do not know if Kokusho is oppressive enough to keep banned, as I have not played with him. But there are arguments for both sides.
That's true, but the same could be said for a lot of cards. Child of Alara or Prossh being looped over and over is a lot worse than Koko, in most situations.
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If you banned every card that generates more than 2 mana at any given time, the list would be 50 cards long.
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StaffWeird, those are selling points for my playgroup.
Anyway, I view Duel as an outlet for my hyper-competitive tendencies so that I can play casually in "regular" EDH. I'm a much happier player for it.
There is no clearly defined split between casual and not EDH players 99% of the people who I have started games with from people playing unsleeved precons to thousands of dollars foiled out the ass insanity they all want to win, sure you can point to those two examples as the extremes but that leaves the majority of us floating in the middle.
So trying to create a playing field based on the whims of either of those extremes is utterly foolish because it misses most of the players.
Sliding Scales are cool hell I have a sliding scale myself as I move from deck to deck to deck.
I have some friends that scratch that itch with Legacy and then play EDH "regularly" as well.
You're much happier for it because you're doing it right.
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StaffTook a long time to realize that. I think it would help the format as a whole if people would try out having a vent for competitive play. It's those who only play one kind of EDH that really seem to cause issues in my experience (both casual and competitive). I know, I was one of them.
You didn't name a single card that would make the cut in any of my decks. I suppose if I thought Mono-white was remotely viable I might find Theros useful, but even then it's competing against 20 years of enchantments.
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Seriously? The enchantment artifacts get a fair bit of play, and a handful of the enchantment creatures are okay, but I think I've seen Bestow creatures played in EDH a grand total of three times outside the couple of ones that have earned spots in my Krond and Geist decks.
Show me a build that can pump out enchantments as quickly and in numbers as a Rhys deck can pump out creatures, and then maybe this argument can be taken seriously.
And yes, I do play Sanctum, in Krond and in Geist.
I will say, Skybind is pretty good. I was dubious, but saw it might have potential, and I've been pleasantly surprised at how good it has turned out to be most of the time I've played it. It has been a major factor in several wins with my Krond deck, some very close, some complete blow-outs.
Nighthowler is fantastic in my Jarad deck. Also, there are some enchantment creatures like Courser of Kruphix which do not have Bestow. Still, I agree that it is many times more difficult to pump out enchantments than it is artifacts or creatures though, and that Academy and Cradle are vastly more powerful than Sanctum.
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Nighthowler is one of the few I have seen someone play in EDH. Eidolon of Countless Battles is the other one.
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StaffBecause this thread is basically "discuss a card" at times.
I would also agree that Kokusho could be unbanned as a general. While the ability to keep him from getting exiled as a commander is useful, he is not threatening enough as a general and tends to be used to greater effect as one of the 99. As stated by Xoth, a deck with Chainer at the helm will make more degenerate use of Koko than running him in the command zone outside of a very dedicated build. The same could be said for Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed or any other general with black in it that you can build a recursive reanimation strategy around. I think Koko had to get unbanned because Gray Merchant of Asphodel is a card, and is a better target than Koko more often than not, especially in the later game. Koko staying banned as a general only makes sense if the RC is trying to make a statement about not wanting to see narrow, one trick pony decks that have to be specifically built in a very linear manner to abuse the general. I agree that those decks are boring, but due to the social nature of EDH, that can essentially be policed internally within a playgroup.
Personally I don't really care if Koko can be used as a general, but I don't think it would hurt the format if he was permitted. I look at him kind of like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker where being in the 99 is more effective than in the command zone in most situations. He has a place in my Chainer deck, but he'll never take the helm.
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Well, it's not really "fallacious" since the card is, in fact, a good card. But I get what you mean there.
The point is not that PoK is just "goodstuff," the point is that it is too large a concentration of abilities that it mimics the effects of multiple-card setup and, as such, becomes a huge target for everyone to take. The games degenerate into a race to see who gets to keep the PoK. Too much power on one card does this. I've seen it mentioned multiple times that if PT only grabbed basics, it would not have been such a target; I'd have to agree with that.
Basically, what I'm saying is that it is ban-worthy because it becomes the focus in nearly every game in which it appears.
This is quite true. I don't think I'd really want to run Koko as a general simply because that makes it obvious what my deck is aiming to do. I run Chainer too and Koko is 100% better in the 99.
I am all about letting as many terrible "makes the whiny kids' ********s pucker" cards free to the public, but after testing I cannot imagine a general EDH metagame with Kokusho in the command zone.
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Because I felt like it?
Why were you trying to steal Koko Puffs, though?
A) He steals health, giving him a high life total; Commander Damage don't care.
B) Sure, 20 life swing (15 to him, 5 from you) is a lot, but it's not insurmountable for 3 people.
I just wonder if that's any worse than a well-tuned Sharuum or Arcum deck. But, like I said, I'm ambivalent. I wouldn't like him in my command zone.
As far as how powerful it is... no. Not even close. But in terms of how the entire table focuses on 1 card and largely ignores the other 399 unless they are a means to take advantage of Kokusho, yes. When the rules committee talks about "centralizing" this is what they are talking about.
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You are aware that this isn't Jusstice and moxnix's banlist thread right?
Just because certain posters play in an especially cutthroat environment doesn't make their view point matter anymore than anyone who can properly argue why a card should or should not be banned (I just wanted to see if anyone else felt the same way as I did with SoFaF; nobody did so I'm in the wrong in terms of thinking that the fact that it's in every single deck, every ******* where is a problem)
At the end of the day, Commander/EDH is not a competitive format in the same way that other Constructed and Limited formats are, generally speaking. If you want to ban Sol Ring find other people that feel the same way and let it be; the rest of us will follow the actual ban list because not everybody is a spike.
I kind of see where you're coming from about it being in most decks, as it definitely is one of the best equipment in the format. But that doesn't make it too much different from cards like Sensei's Divining Top and the always aforementioned Sol Ring that are also in every deck. Is it an extremely popular, colorless staple? For sure. But that doesn't really warrant banning. The fact that it does literally nothing by itself and requires connecting with a player to get most of its effect is also a pretty big consideration.
It's fine to dislike a card, and convincing people to not play with it, or other staples, for a few games is something that a lot of groups could benefit from every now and then.
The problem wiht kokusho is when he's constantly looped over and over again. a 20 life swing once isn't much. A 20 life swing done multiple turns in a row is.
However, I do not know if Kokusho is oppressive enough to keep banned, as I have not played with him. But there are arguments for both sides.
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