Arguably the best and most oppressive Tinker target was Sundering Titan, which is now also banned. Tinker is a powerful tutor and it can cheat a high cost artifact into play, but without ST around does it still create the same kind of problematic games that earned it a ban?
I guess it's more of a combo issue now. Getting thopter-combo or what not out there faster.
The fatal flaw in everyone's arguments that Sol Ring should be banned is simple: Every scenario where you try to prove that it's broken involved a god hand, a hand that you have an incredibly low chance of getting. You can't ban a card because it has potential to win you the game if you live in magical christmas land.
Tinker is definitely banworthy IMO. Tutor straight into play for 3 mana, while sacrificing something that probably either came free with your mana base (artifact lands) or accelerated you (Ring/Crypt/other rock)?
Tinker is a tutor AND fast mana (a lot of it) all wrapped up into one card. Every format where it is legal it has been totally abused. It can't come off the banned list.
In the history of Magic, cards that were banned are usually the enablers, engines, or straight out broken cards. Artifact lands for example, are enablers. Preordain, Ponder, etc are enablers also. Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are the enablers for all types of strategies. They happen to be broken as well.
There are probably a lot more. In this case, the blame goes to Tinker rather than the enablers. All the enablers here do is cause a t2 Blightsteel rather than t3. Card is broken and probably not the best example to use to illustrate how broken ring/crypt are.
Is anyone else sick of this topic already? Valid points were made on both sides, but nobody's going to budge.
Refer to the previous page, you'll see a general consensus on a Mana Crypt ban from almost everyone. Some, including myself, were dissuaded about Sol Ring and others were persuaded about Mana Crypt. We all converged to an opinion. So... way to go, forum!
In no way are sol ring and mana crypt in the same category as ancestral recall.
Actually, they absolutely are. Mana Crypt is 2 time walks in only 1 card for 0 mana. Another way to look at it, you'd have to have 2 lands put into play to achieve the same power as Mana Crypt so to maintain card parity it essentially becomes draw 2, play 2 additional lands for 0. Basically 2 Explores for free. That is more powerful than Recall in my opinion.
It is absolutely not 2 time walks in one, are you insane? Its 2 free extra mana not multiple draws, multiple untaps ect. Its only your opinion that they are in the same category, many others would disagree.
I agree with pretty much what youre saying. I HATE access as an argument though. I have an Imperial Seal I can use and some Moxen I cant. I have seen BY FAR more moxen than Imperial Seals in the world. Also moxen are at least symmetrical (solely in the sense of each color has one Im not suggesting they unban them). Sometimes I look at the bannings and see parallel cards that are allowed where as there slightly different counterparts arent. I dont always understand This vs That when it comes to the EDH banned list
It is absolutely not 2 time walks in one, are you insane? Its 2 free extra mana not multiple draws, multiple untaps ect. Its only your opinion that they are in the same category, many others would disagree.
It basically is if it is played very early (though you don't get to draw 2 cards off of it and it can be destroyed to sort of undo the effect if it is destroyed early enough). If it is played later, it definitely is not.
Basically, you are playing turn 4 on turn 2 because you have access to 4 mana. With mana crypt, you could even be playing turn 3 and then turn 4 on turns 1 and 2. It's obviously not the same, but it's still a ridiculous advantage.
Also, with 3? 1-mana tutors that can get sol ring / mana crypt, I think the chances of seeing it by turn 2 is significantly increased. Obviously you don't always tutor for these cards, but they're often the target of choice where I play.
It is absolutely not 2 time walks in one, are you insane? Its 2 free extra mana not multiple draws, multiple untaps ect. Its only your opinion that they are in the same category, many others would disagree.
It's time walk in the earlier turns, as SAUS said, however the draw is important too. If I play nothing in my three turns besides 3 lands, I have the same amount of mana and just 1 more card in my hand than if I played T1 Mana Crypt. So it is definitely better than 1 Time Walk in the first 2 turns, yet worse than two Time Walks on one card for 0 mana.
I honestly don't think tolarian academy would be OP, sure its good but they could unban it and try it out for awhile, it's restricted in usage just like mishra's workshop
I honestly don't think tolarian academy would be OP, sure its good but they could unban it and try it out for awhile, it's restricted in usage just like mishra's workshop
Did you really just reply to yourself answering your own question?
I don't think Tolarian Academy needs off of the list. Especially since fast mana is a big problem atm.
I honestly don't think tolarian academy would be OP, sure its good but they could unban it and try it out for awhile, it's restricted in usage just like mishra's workshop
Did you really just reply to yourself answering your own question?
I don't think Tolarian Academy needs off of the list. Especially since fast mana is a big problem atm.
I replied to my own question in order to try and move the topic on beyond mana crypt and sol ring, obviously I forgot that this thread was named "Discussion of mana crypt and sol ring thread"
Tolarian Academy has a lot more potential for early abuse than any of it's counterparts, especially along side a few of the cards you don't want to talk about.
Also, those cards are being discussed because they're considered issues by many people here, though my takeaway is that Mana Crypt is infinitely more likely to see the axe than Sol Ring.
Tolarian Academy has a lot more potential for early abide than any of it's counterparts, especially along side a few of the cards you don't want to talk about.
Also, those cards are being discussed because they're considered issues, though my takeaway is that Mana Crypt is infinitely more likely to see the axe than [c[Sol Ring[/c].
I know they are issues, but we've spent 5 pages or so going back and forth on them, nothing new can be said, as for academy what do you mean by early abuse? There are a lot of things that have potential to be abused early
This is what happens when you play in a "Social" format as opposed to a sanctioned format. EDH, Commander, is ran by the RC. They have no other data than their own games and experiences to base things off of. There is no tournament data that they use when determining if a card should be banned or not. Due to EDH not being a sanctioned format governed by WOTC and a lack of data on cards in question, there will always be imbalance in the ban list. The sooner people accept that EDH is a social format and not a format to be ran like a sanctioned tournament, the better off all players of EDH will be. Should fast mana be banned? Possibly, but then where do you draw the line? If Sol-Ring and Mana Crypt go, the guy who gets Mana Vault and/or Grim Monolith is still faster than the guy who didn't. The problem lies with players who are just in EDH for themselves. If you are setting down to a game of EDH in a tournament structure with prizes on the line, then your doing it wrong. Just my opinion. Build for the experience, not for your ego.
I know they are issues, but we've spent 5 pages or so going back and forth on them, nothing new can be said, as for academy what do you mean by early abuse? There are a lot of things that have potential to be abused early
Hopefully, someone with more experience playing with/against Academy can answer you better, as I've only played against it a few times. Now, this is also coming from someone playing both with and against Gaea's Cradle which is another extremely powerful land. That said, at the fastest (in an EDH elfball deck) that I've seen personally Gaea's Cradle go off, it was still a turn or two slower than the fastest that I've seen Academy go off.
Academy can make fantastic use out of the 0-1 mana artifacts that are already good to play on their own (Sensei's Divinig Top, Tormod's Crypt, Candelabra of Tawnos, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, to name a few ), and are not subject to summoning sickness (like mana dorks are) with some having the potential to produce mana on their own outside of what Academy is already producing.
Creatures are also much more fragile than artifacts. You also need to consider what that mana will fuel. In this case, colored blue mana will push you into very early spells that give you things such as extra turns and draw power.
Again, hopefully someone else here has had more experience with the card to explain this, because I can only speak to what I have personally seen with it.
Actually Mana Vault and Grim Monolith are nothing like Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. Vault and Monolith require you to pay to untap them netting negative mana if you use it that same turn. Ring and Crypt require no such thing. So while the Vault/Monolith player does get a "boost" that boost is a one time thing and must be reset for a cost before being used again. Of course this is all barring shenanigans.
Actually Mana Vault and Grim Monolith are nothing like Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. Vault and Monolith require you to pay to untap them netting negative mana if you use it that same turn. Ring and Crypt require no such thing. So while the Vault/Monolith player does get a "boost" that boost is a one time thing and must be reset for a cost before being used again. Of course this is all barring shenanigans.
Nobody said they were like Sol-Ring and Mana Crypt. What I am saying is that if you ban those two, Mana Vault and Grim Monolith become the go to mana rocks.
Nobody said they were like Sol-Ring and Mana Crypt. What I am saying is that if you ban those two, Mana Vault and Grim Monolith become the go to mana rocks.
That would be very preferable to Sol Ring and Mana Crypt being the go to mana rocks but I don't think they'd replace them with Mana Vault and Grim Monolith. I run crypt/ring in land slots so I would actually replace them with lands (might explain why I dislike them so much since I view the next best thing as land...). Some people might got with Worn Powerstone for 1 and maybe a 2cc rock for the other if they still wanted the ramp.
This is what happens when you play in a "Social" format as opposed to a sanctioned format. EDH, Commander, is ran by the RC. They have no other data than their own games and experiences to base things off of. There is no tournament data that they use when determining if a card should be banned or not. Due to EDH not being a sanctioned format governed by WOTC and a lack of data on cards in question, there will always be imbalance in the ban list. The sooner people accept that EDH is a social format and not a format to be ran like a sanctioned tournament, the better off all players of EDH will be. Should fast mana be banned? Possibly, but then where do you draw the line? If Sol-Ring and Mana Crypt go, the guy who gets Mana Vault and/or Grim Monolith is still faster than the guy who didn't. The problem lies with players who are just in EDH for themselves. If you are setting down to a game of EDH in a tournament structure with prizes on the line, then your doing it wrong. Just my opinion. Build for the experience, not for your ego.
The fatal flaw in everyone's arguments that Sol Ring should be banned is simple: Every scenario where you try to prove that it's broken involved a god hand, a hand that you have an incredibly low chance of getting. You can't ban a card because it has potential to win you the game if you live in magical christmas land.
My Prossh example had at least four difference plays, all of them attacking in different ways, where a T1 sol ring lead to a T4 massive advantage or an outright kill. "God hand" implies that it's a very specific hand, so what do you call it when at least 4 examples - and I could fire off even more if I tried - were "god hands"?
I guess it's more of a combo issue now. Getting thopter-combo or what not out there faster.
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In the history of Magic, cards that were banned are usually the enablers, engines, or straight out broken cards. Artifact lands for example, are enablers. Preordain, Ponder, etc are enablers also. Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are the enablers for all types of strategies. They happen to be broken as well.
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T2 Blightsteel would be a common thing with Tinker unbanned.
Sol Ring+Island
Mana Vault+Island
Ancient Tomb+Seat of the Synod
Mox Diamond+2 Land drops (one blue)
Mana Crypt makes it turn 1.
Even Paradise Mantle + Ornithopter, + 2 land drops (christmas hand, but in conjunction with the rest not so much)
Mishra's Workshop+ Island + any artifact costing 3 or less
There are probably a lot more. In this case, the blame goes to Tinker rather than the enablers. All the enablers here do is cause a t2 Blightsteel rather than t3. Card is broken and probably not the best example to use to illustrate how broken ring/crypt are.
Tinker would be bad for the health of the format.
Refer to the previous page, you'll see a general consensus on a Mana Crypt ban from almost everyone. Some, including myself, were dissuaded about Sol Ring and others were persuaded about Mana Crypt. We all converged to an opinion. So... way to go, forum!
Actually, they absolutely are. Mana Crypt is 2 time walks in only 1 card for 0 mana. Another way to look at it, you'd have to have 2 lands put into play to achieve the same power as Mana Crypt so to maintain card parity it essentially becomes draw 2, play 2 additional lands for 0. Basically 2 Explores for free. That is more powerful than Recall in my opinion.
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It basically is if it is played very early (though you don't get to draw 2 cards off of it and it can be destroyed to sort of undo the effect if it is destroyed early enough). If it is played later, it definitely is not.
Basically, you are playing turn 4 on turn 2 because you have access to 4 mana. With mana crypt, you could even be playing turn 3 and then turn 4 on turns 1 and 2. It's obviously not the same, but it's still a ridiculous advantage.
Also, with 3? 1-mana tutors that can get sol ring / mana crypt, I think the chances of seeing it by turn 2 is significantly increased. Obviously you don't always tutor for these cards, but they're often the target of choice where I play.
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It's time walk in the earlier turns, as SAUS said, however the draw is important too. If I play nothing in my three turns besides 3 lands, I have the same amount of mana and just 1 more card in my hand than if I played T1 Mana Crypt. So it is definitely better than 1 Time Walk in the first 2 turns, yet worse than two Time Walks on one card for 0 mana.
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I honestly don't think tolarian academy would be OP, sure its good but they could unban it and try it out for awhile, it's restricted in usage just like mishra's workshop
Did you really just reply to yourself answering your own question?
I don't think Tolarian Academy needs off of the list. Especially since fast mana is a big problem atm.
I replied to my own question in order to try and move the topic on beyond mana crypt and sol ring, obviously I forgot that this thread was named "Discussion of mana crypt and sol ring thread"
Also, those cards are being discussed because they're considered issues by many people here, though my takeaway is that Mana Crypt is infinitely more likely to see the axe than Sol Ring.
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I know they are issues, but we've spent 5 pages or so going back and forth on them, nothing new can be said, as for academy what do you mean by early abuse? There are a lot of things that have potential to be abused early
Hopefully, someone with more experience playing with/against Academy can answer you better, as I've only played against it a few times. Now, this is also coming from someone playing both with and against Gaea's Cradle which is another extremely powerful land. That said, at the fastest (in an EDH elfball deck) that I've seen personally Gaea's Cradle go off, it was still a turn or two slower than the fastest that I've seen Academy go off.
Academy can make fantastic use out of the 0-1 mana artifacts that are already good to play on their own (Sensei's Divinig Top, Tormod's Crypt, Candelabra of Tawnos, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, to name a few ), and are not subject to summoning sickness (like mana dorks are) with some having the potential to produce mana on their own outside of what Academy is already producing.
Creatures are also much more fragile than artifacts. You also need to consider what that mana will fuel. In this case, colored blue mana will push you into very early spells that give you things such as extra turns and draw power.
Again, hopefully someone else here has had more experience with the card to explain this, because I can only speak to what I have personally seen with it.
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Nobody said they were like Sol-Ring and Mana Crypt. What I am saying is that if you ban those two, Mana Vault and Grim Monolith become the go to mana rocks.
That would be very preferable to Sol Ring and Mana Crypt being the go to mana rocks but I don't think they'd replace them with Mana Vault and Grim Monolith. I run crypt/ring in land slots so I would actually replace them with lands (might explain why I dislike them so much since I view the next best thing as land...). Some people might got with Worn Powerstone for 1 and maybe a 2cc rock for the other if they still wanted the ramp.
Very well said.
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My Prossh example had at least four difference plays, all of them attacking in different ways, where a T1 sol ring lead to a T4 massive advantage or an outright kill. "God hand" implies that it's a very specific hand, so what do you call it when at least 4 examples - and I could fire off even more if I tried - were "god hands"?
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