MTG Salvation

Quote from Yonekura

I think you guys are forgetting about Mishra's Workshop its pretty powerful, and is expensive as power.

Workshop is only really good in certain decks, typically ones with an artifact focus (Arcum, Karn, Sharuum etc.) What I'm more curious about is why I don't see Ancient Tomb make it into these kinds of discussions, since it has the same doubling mana effect and can be put in a wide range of decks. That, in conjunction Sol Ring/Mana Crypt means you could have 4 mana on turn 1. I just think it's funny Sol Ring is on people's chopping block, but Ancient Tomb isn't.

Quote from Nodrog

Quote from Yonekura

I think you guys are forgetting about Mishra's Workshop its pretty powerful, and is expensive as power.

Workshop is only really good in certain decks, typically ones with an artifact focus (Arcum, Karn, Sharuum etc.) What I'm more curious about is why I don't see Ancient Tomb make it into these kinds of discussions, since it has the same doubling mana effect and can be put in a wide range of decks. That, in conjunction Sol Ring/Mana Crypt means you could have 4 mana on turn 1. I just think it's funny Sol Ring is on people's chopping block, but Ancient Tomb isn't.

Well, Ancient Tomb vs Mana Crypt is similar to Island vs Mox Sapphire; taking up a land drop is a significant downside to the card. It's not bad, but is less likely to cause crazy plays. Also, it technically costs 0.5 more life per turn.

Ancient Tomb, as a land, is harder to untap multiple times per turn, whereas it's relatively easy for a deck built to use and abuse artifacts to untap those artifacts. Yes, you can built your deck around untapping lands (that's what Derevi does quite often, actually), but there are far fewer card choices to support this kind of build than there are for artifacts.

And just for the record, I'm not opposed to fast-mana artifacts at all. They just require a lot of experience and skill to use correctly, and when they are, it's terrifying.

However, what I think many of us forget through our trawling through the internet is just that -- we are on the internet. We hear horror stories of god-hands and treat them like they happen all the time. We participate in or watch games online in which people use cards they otherwise couldn't afford (it's great to be able to use all these great cards, don't get me wrong, but in reality these cards aren't as prevalent as they seem). These aspects help define the online meta, but local metas are defined by the people who play in them. As Majikal stated earlier, use cards responsibility according to your meta (whochre can be in real life or online).

WotC printing Sol Ring in the various Commander preconstructed products means that the card has a sort of imprimatur, so it's part of the ‘definition’ (I'm trying to come up with a better word) of the format. Further, fast mana is only as broken as what you're doing with it, for many playgroups the problem of Sol Ring (and, by extension, Mana Crypt, though I've never sat across from it myself) is just not going to be very stark. Also, ramping into bigger (though non–degenerate) plays due to a turn one or two Sol Ring is fun. Because of all this, most people I've floated my (negative) opinion regarding its legality to are not happy with the idea of banning it at all.*

I'm going to miss these games now that I'm moving, but one of the people I've regularly played Commander with since I began started playing Duel Commander games with me a few months ago, and I appreciated the absence of Sol Ring in that environment. That isn't because you lack other players to work against the player who dropped the turn one Ring (which is a common excuse for its presence on the Duel Commander list), but because it wasn't there to create more frequent instances of nigh–unwinnable games for myself or for my opponent, something that happens even in decks that can't further exploit it via cards which untap it. Ancient Tomb is also banned in Duel Commander, of course, but I don't think it presents the same sort of problem even in absence of untap tech, because you can't drop it on top of another land on turn one under normal circumstances; Tomb also eats up a utility land slot for plenty of decks which have a hard limit on the number of lands they can afford to play that don't produce colored mana.

* The attitude somewhat confuses me, because Sol Ring is as generic as generic can be. If you're the sort of player who doesn't see the card as particularly warping, wouldn't you be OK with just having that slot open for something a little more interesting? In most color identities & strategies there's never enough room for all the fun cards you want to play it seems. That's why I brought up my ‘definition’ comment first, because even though I've never really heard that argument explicitly, I just think that it's so much a part of the format that something about it being gone would feel wrong to a lot of players, and that explains the serious negative reactions I've seen. (Maybe I'm stretching, here?)

Quote from Ariston

* The attitude somewhat confuses me, because Sol Ring is as generic as generic can be. If you're the sort of player who doesn't see the card as particularly warping, wouldn't you be OK with just having that slot open for something a little more interesting? In most color identities & strategies there's never enough room for all the fun cards you want to play it seems. That's why I brought up my ‘definition’ comment first, because even though I've never really heard that argument explicitly, I just think that it's so much a part of the format that something about it being gone would feel wrong to a lot of players, and that explains the serious negative reactions I've seen. (Maybe I'm stretching, here?)

That's perfectly valid from a vorthos perspective, but the problem with this argument from a functional deckbuilding point of view is that few mana rocks are as reliable and effective as Sol Ring. I always like seeing Sol Ring. I don't always like seeing Guilded Lotus. I think it's uniqueness in terms of overall value is what draws people's gaze. I personally run Sol Ring in my decks because I like the art, but it's also in a lot of decks because it's just that good.

Since this is the multiplayer banlist discussion, what do you guys feel about banning Debt to the Deathless and Exsanguinate? I think these cards are absurd in multiplayer settings and gain just as much life. Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord also seems worthy of banning in EDH 2-Headed Giant or 3-Headed Giant where the teams share a life total (also debt and exsanguinate for that matter).

Quote from Nodrog

That's perfectly valid from a vorthos perspective, but the problem with this argument from a functional deckbuilding point of view is that few mana rocks are as reliable and effective as Sol Ring. I always like seeing Sol Ring. I don't always like seeing Guilded Lotus. I think it's uniqueness in terms of overall value is what draws people's gaze. I personally run Sol Ring in my decks because I like the art, but it's also in a lot of decks because it's just that good.

No, I definitely agree with you here, and it's that very superiority and near–universal applicability that makes it so generic in the sense I meant— I didn't mean to conjure up associations with Merfolk of the Pearl Trident or something, if that's what it sounded like.

For Sheldon and Orgefoot

Obliterate and Decree of Annihilation do nearly the exact same thing that Worldfire does. Which is kill everything float mana play general win. The difference I see is that Obliterate and Decree will make the game drag on because people will be at higher life totals, which will require much more time to end a game making for more miserable game states. Worldfire avoids this problem by making sure the end will come quickly. Also the other players in the game can float mana as well and there exists flash generals, direct damage, and counter spells, as a means of disrupting Worldfire+float mana+general.

And lets be honest Obliterate and Degree plus float mana plus general is functionally the same thing that Worldfire plus general is. Degree is nearly the same thing as Worldfire minus the 1 life part. Would Worldfire be passable if it set everybody's life total to...10? How is it that the life setting is what gets this card the ax.

Thanks for your replies in advance.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all Wildfire, but I can come back by drawing Swamp, Sol Ring, and black Pact (hoping to survive long enough to use it). But yeah, it would be in every mono red deck just like Coalition Victory would be in every 5c one.

On Worldfire: It makes your life 1, any general is going to be able to take you out of the game. You're only hope is to top deck land into kill spell and then hope that you didn't get attacked first by the commander and that they instead took someone else out.

Obliterate and Decree also do not deal with enchantments or planeswalkers, there wont be an empty field when they resolve. Leaving you at your regular life total means that any low cost generals usually just can't beat you down before you recover, since they are often 2/2s. What is an example of a general in red that could quickly close out the game after a Decree?

Obliterate also is destroy instead of exile, which means that indestructible hoses it and don't hurt players hands, which means that someone holding back on lands could quickly recover.

On Sol Ring:

Wouldn't you rather have it banned so you can put a fun card in that slot instead of boring old Sol Ring?

Not at all. My view on a Sol Ring ban is that while it does hurt all deck a little, it hurts green the least and it hurts red and white the most.

Sol Ring also helps green the most, allowing them to Explode Veggies on turn 2, for example.

Quote from WiKkEd ClOwN

Since this is the multiplayer banlist discussion, what do you guys feel about banning Debt to the Deathless and Exsanguinate? I think these cards are absurd in multiplayer settings and gain just as much life. Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord also seems worthy of banning in EDH 2-Headed Giant or 3-Headed Giant where the teams share a life total (also debt and exsanguinate for that matter).

These cards are fine, they are supposed to scale in multiplayer. Just being powerful is not a reason to ban it, so what would make it get on the list?

I highly doubt there will ever be a ban list from the RC that incorporates any sort of 2HG (or more).

Quote from WiKkEd ClOwN

Since this is the multiplayer banlist discussion, what do you guys feel about banning Debt to the Deathless and Exsanguinate? I think these cards are absurd in multiplayer settings and gain just as much life. Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord also seems worthy of banning in EDH 2-Headed Giant or 3-Headed Giant where the teams share a life total (also debt and exsanguinate for that matter).

Debt / Exsanguinate are cards that can end the game but their mana cost to do such is a point where most things for that mana should be ending the game. One key thing to realize on these cards is they do absolutely nothing to the boardstate, are bad cards to draw in the early game, and can usually be attacked by a number of tactics such as: counterspells, attacking the player and not letting them build a large board state, attrition tactics, hand wheels, hand hate, and voltron damage.

Obviously these things still resolve plenty often enough to make them annoying. However, they are big game ending spells. I cast Death Cloud for x = 20 the other day as a means of killing three opponents. Obviously it was an awkward way of using the spell but I am just saying that when you get to those levels of mana most things can be deadly. It would be far more likely to take a look at something like Tooth and Nail as an issue than Exsanguinate / Debt because those cards require you to need 10+ mana before they are even looking at putting players at a range of lifeloss that they might worry about.

Quote from cryogen

I'm not disagreeing with you at all Wildfire, but I can come back by drawing Swamp, Sol Ring, and black Pact (hoping to survive long enough to use it). But yeah, it would be in every mono red deck just like Coalition Victory would be in every 5c one.

If you're talking about Worldfire, then no, you can't. If you are talking about something else, then ignore this post.

Quote from Wildfire393

Quote from cryogen

I'm not disagreeing with you at all Wildfire, but I can come back by drawing Swamp, Sol Ring, and black Pact (hoping to survive long enough to use it). But yeah, it would be in every mono red deck just like Coalition Victory would be in every 5c one.

Against Zo-zu? How are you drawing three cards before he just smashes and kills you?

Luck that he doesn't swing at me and three top deck miracles.

Quote from Sinfire Titan

Quote from cryogen

I'm not disagreeing with you at all Wildfire, but I can come back by drawing Swamp, Sol Ring, and black Pact (hoping to survive long enough to use it). But yeah, it would be in every mono red deck just like Coalition Victory would be in every 5c one.

If you're talking about Worldfire, then no, you can't. If you are talking about something else, then ignore this post.

Cast pact, kill Zo-zu. Play swamp, cast sol ring. Next turn pay the Pact upkeep. Sure, it's magical Christmas land worthy of this thread, but it is theoretically possible to survive.

Quote from WiKkEd ClOwN

Since this is the multiplayer banlist discussion, what do you guys feel about banning Debt to the Deathless and Exsanguinate? I think these cards are absurd in multiplayer settings and gain just as much life. Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord also seems worthy of banning in EDH 2-Headed Giant or 3-Headed Giant where the teams share a life total (also debt and exsanguinate for that matter).

Debt and Exsanguinate aren't an issue because they should win games for the amount of mana they require to do so.

If you are having trouble with someone who isn't using them to kill you but to gain an insurmountable life total with them then adjust your win conditions. There are plenty of ways to win that make your opponents life total completely meaningless. Even without "going infinite". If someone casts a Debt that doesn't kill me I smile. Odds are I'll win the game soon after through some means that doesn't require me to overcome that absurd life total.

As far as their interaction in 2HG/3HG...the rules committee will never take that into account. "Alternate" formats have no bearing on the regular ban list otherwise Purphoros would be banned. That is a situation that screams for house rules.

Quote from cryogen

Cast pact, kill Zo-zu. Play swamp, cast sol ring. Next turn pay the Pact upkeep. Sure, it's magical Christmas land worthy of this thread, but it is theoretically possible to survive.

It's probably a lot easier to just play a mox (chrome/diamond) and stp/path/oust/etc the bastard. Or if you want 2-card-kills, siminan spirit guide + lightning bolt/shock/etc, or even elvish spirit guide + berserk (hopefully when he's attacking someone else). Even something as crappy as wall of cinders or torpid moloch off a spirit guide or mox could hold zo-zu off you. or there's flameshot and pyrokinesis.

So come on, guys, there's like a million ways to survive worldfire + zo-zu! it's not even hard. Come on.

Quote from Wildfire393

Quote from civilwargoat

For Sheldon and Orgefoot

Obliterate and Decree of Annihilation do nearly the exact same thing that Worldfire does. Which is kill everything float mana play general win. The difference I see is that Obliterate and Decree will make the game drag on because people will be at higher life totals, which will require much more time to end a game making for more miserable game states. Worldfire avoids this problem by making sure the end will come quickly. Also the other players in the game can float mana as well and there exists flash generals, direct damage, and counter spells, as a means of disrupting Worldfire+float mana+general.

And lets be honest Obliterate and Degree plus float mana plus general is functionally the same thing that Worldfire plus general is. Degree is nearly the same thing as Worldfire minus the 1 life part. Would Worldfire be passable if it set everybody's life total to...10? How is it that the life setting is what gets this card the ax.

Thanks for your replies in advance.

Oblit and Decree do not get rid of Enchantments or Planeswalkers. This means that there is more space available to attempt to build your play if you think someone is going to drop one. Additionally, Obliterate does not get rid of hands or graveyards, so there is more room to do things after (such as float mana and counter the general, float mana and cast an instant, etc).
Also, the fact that they don't set life means that the game doesn't just automatically end in favor of the person casting it every single time. Sure, if he drops his Zo-Zu the Punisher from the Command Zone post Decree, it's going to be a bit difficult to come back, but if you're sitting on a buffer of 40 life because the Zo-zu player did nothing before the Decree, you'll have more of a chance to get back into the game.

Worldfire is toxic to the format for a few reasons:
1) It sets players' life, making the entire game up to that point meaningless (this is similar to why Biorhythm and Sway of the Stars are banned)
2) It leaves an extremely limited space available for counterplay before hand
3) It leaves zero space available for counterplay afterwards
4) It interacts poorly with the game's rules, allowing the caster the ability to float mana and cast their general for an obscene advantage (it's literally impossible to beat Zo-zo)

1. There are other life setting cards like Sorin Markov, Sorin's Vengeance and the Sphinx do similar things.
2. How is this any different from any other combo deck.
3. Again how is this any different from a combo deck.
4. There are so many cards that generate the same or similar affect when you cast spell XXXX float mana cast your general.

Perhaps examining Worldfire as a combo card and not some durdley king/haymaker 9 mana socery.

1. Those cards set one person's life total at 10, not everyone at 1. Huge difference.
2. Almost all combo decks rely on multiple cards within your deck. This is more akin to Coalition Victory, which requires nothing except your general. It is also nearly as 'I win' as CV also, with the option being counter it or lose.
3. Repeat question. See #2.
4. No, there are no cards which produce the same effect. Similar, yes, but users have already explained the differences.

Quote from cryogen

Quote from Wildfire393

Quote from cryogen

I'm not disagreeing with you at all Wildfire, but I can come back by drawing Swamp, Sol Ring, and black Pact (hoping to survive long enough to use it). But yeah, it would be in every mono red deck just like Coalition Victory would be in every 5c one.

Against Zo-zu? How are you drawing three cards before he just smashes and kills you?

Luck that he doesn't swing at me and three top deck miracles.

Quote from Sinfire Titan

Quote from cryogen

I'm not disagreeing with you at all Wildfire, but I can come back by drawing Swamp, Sol Ring, and black Pact (hoping to survive long enough to use it). But yeah, it would be in every mono red deck just like Coalition Victory would be in every 5c one.

If you're talking about Worldfire, then no, you can't. If you are talking about something else, then ignore this post.

Cast pact, kill Zo-zu. Play swamp, cast sol ring. Next turn pay the Pact upkeep. Sure, it's magical Christmas land worthy of this thread, but it is theoretically possible to survive.

Worldfire exiles hands. Unless you have an emblem that allows you to draw two extra cards on your draw step, it's literally impossible to survive your own Pact post-Worldfire (and you have to have the Pact post-Worldfire; Zozu isn't going to be on the board until that spell resolves).

I think the life-setting component was what made the RC ban Worldfire. Easiest decision made, although it bemuses me that it took 1 entire window for it to be banned.

Why would anyone wanna play Worldfire in a social, multiplayer game I will never understand. Does the player want to win that much.

On Sol Ring in CMDR products: Wizards kinda bought into the RC's early mantra of "Sol Ring in every EDH deck". In a way, I think it's kind of shooting themselves in their feet.

Sol Ring at that period before official commander products was highly sort after. Reprinting it over and over again so it could be easily available made sense then. However, with Sheldon and perhaps a few influential voices not really playing Sol Ring, or adhering to their league rules of not playing it on T1 is pretty conflicting.

Being widely played doesn't take away the fact that it ruins many games. I don't think it helps Red and/or White anymore than it does Green. Red and/or White decks can happily do without it and be successful.

It's so automatic that it makes less of a deckbuilder in us. Very much like tutors. But that's another tale.

Worldfire just makes Jhoira become that much stronger. I've been able to mess with Jhoira with enchantments like Sunken Hope and other bounce effects to offset her tempo if she does go off. With Worldfire, I haven't got the option to even defend myself.

@ Sinfire: player A floats mana, casts World fire, Z-Z, passes turn. You draw swamp, pass turn
He kills player b, passes turn. You draw Sol ring, pass turn. He kills player c, passes turn. You draw pact, cast pact, drop land, cast Sol ring.

Absurdly stupid, but theoretically possible.

@ Bolas: The RC doesn't snap ban cards the second they're released. Both Wildfire and Griselbrand were destined.to be banned from the time they were spoiled, but they remained legal until the announcement following their release.