Mana Crypt, to me, is bannable on two criteria by now. For one, it considerably lowers how interesting a game is after one player drops it T1. The one who drops it has a massive advantage and is likely going for an as quick a win as possible. Two, it's pretty much unobtainable, but should go in nearly every deck if you have onr. Much like, say, the Moxen. I think that based on that combination, Mana Crypt deserves a boot.
I'm going to disagree and say that Mana Crypt absolutely does not go in every deck. You're forgetting that Mana Crypt has a drawback in that it on average costs 1.5 life per turn, which means that it is really only good in a deck with a proactive game plan. I would be hesitant to include it in any control deck. The card also has an issue where it only makes colorless mana, which may be less desirable then a colored source of mana in the most popular EDH decks, which tend to be 3 colors. In looking at many many decklists on this website I have almost never seen it included in a decklist, which may be due to the decks creator not owning one, but even our wonderful EDH primer section fails to recommend the Mana Crypt in decklists, but also recommend other very expensive cards like Imperial Recruiter.
On the issue of merging the legacy/vintage lists together; it seems like the argument is coming from a very strange direction.
What I'm seeing is:
A: We should use the eternal format ban list!
B: But that has very silly cards on it that would not and should not be banned in EDH!
A: But it also has tutors and mana rocks, those need to be banned!
What I don't get is that if Sol Ring and Vamp, Demonic, Imperial, and Mystical tutor are such problems; why aren't we just talking about those cards? There is no way that the RC to just bindly adopt a ban list that is made for a very different format, not for EDH.
I'd much rather have a discussion about the perceived problem cards, tutors and mana rocks, because the current problem with just mass banning stuff based on the eternal ban list is that you end up banning lots and lots of cards that should be fair game in EDH; like Demonic Consultation, Ponder, Brainstorm, and Merchant Scroll. I 'm not a fan of that much collateral damage.
One thing to keep in mind when you look at an eternal format banned/restricted list is that you have to remember that if any card were not on that list then it would be legal as a 4-of in any deck in that format. In our 100 card singleton decks, even very strong cards in Legacy or Vintage often fail to have the same impact that they would as 4-ofs in a 60 card deck.
On the issue of merging the legacy/vintage lists together; it seems like the argument is coming from a very strange direction.
What I'm seeing is:
A: We should use the eternal format ban list!
B: But that has very silly cards on it that would not and should not be banned in EDH!
A: But it also has tutors and mana rocks, those need to be banned!
What I don't get is that if Sol Ring and Vamp, Demonic, Imperial, and Mystical tutor are such problems; why aren't we just talking about those cards? There is no way that the RC to just bindly adopt a ban list that is made for a very different format, not for EDH.
I'd much rather have a discussion about the perceived problem cards, tutors and mana rocks, because the current problem with just mass banning stuff based on the eternal ban list is that you end up banning lots and lots of cards that should be fair game in EDH; like Demonic Consultation, Ponder, Brainstorm, and Merchant Scroll. I 'm not a fan of that much collateral damage.
One thing to keep in mind when you look at an eternal format banned/restricted list is that you have to remember that if any card were not on that list then it would be legal as a 4-of in any deck in that format. In our 100 card singleton decks, even very strong cards in Legacy or Vintage often fail to have the same impact that they would as 4-ofs in a 60 card deck.
Thank you. I have no problem if anyone wants to use the Legacy ban list as a springboard to discuss individual cards which should be banned in Commander, but if someone blindly wants to merge the two lists (or worse, just use the one list), I'm going to stubbornly argue it all day long.
Jusstice's approach seems the easiest way to resolve some issues. Yes you lose a few cards that have no reason to be banned, but then administering the banlist is just so much easier. And you can still have things like Griselbrand, PT, SP, Biorhythm banned. Out go all the 1-2 CMC hard tutors and fast mana rocks. Seems real easy to implement. The RC should announce it for a test run.
Basically this.
I get that 60 card 4-max produces problem cards that are not problems in 99-singleton. I also get that some cards like PT cause problems with "fun" in EDH rather than competition, and those should be banned as well. I wasn't suggesting that EDH bans be limited to Legacy bans, only include the Legacy bans. Essentially, it would start there but not end there.
The main advantage is administration. Some guy in Alaska who only plays creature-ball decks might think that Mystical Tutor is a silly card, and not ban-worthy at all. It would be great if that creature-ball player had an idea of what play was like in other groups. But good sense being such a rare quality, and one that human beings have always found more or less impossible to transfer, you really don't want to have to engage with that guy about why Mystical Tutor is busted. Just on the last page, Memory Jar was discussed between two well-meaning, experienced players with a different opinion on how unbalancing the card was. There will probably also be holdouts on cards like Necropotence and Survival of the Fittest. But if a categorical ban is overbroad and gets a card like Frantic Search, sure, most people consider it just fine, but banning it is just a price you have to pay for the efficiency of taking Legacy bans as a whole. Honestly, all of these cards that are banned in Legacy but obviously not broken in EDH are not very widely played, and are often even suboptimal. So, there would be no huge outcry if something like Black Vise dropped out of the format. I think the efficiency there is worth it, because despite the incongruity, at least the competition committee for Legacy is actually interested in policing the format of delinquent, unbalancing cards. The RC is overtly committed to avoiding that. So, we are left with a Vintage minus Power-9 baseline that's not suitable at all for a balanced format, even if people are trying in good faith to strategize against one another.
A Legacy baseline just makes more sense for a "Casual" or "Social" format, anyway. If it's too cutthroat or powerful to be allowed in a fast-paced, combo-rich Legacy format, who's going to see the same card as sporting and fun in Casual?
Thank you. I have no problem if anyone wants to use the Legacy ban list as a springboard to discuss individual cards which should be banned in Commander, but if someone blindly wants to merge the two lists (or worse, just use the one list), I'm going to stubbornly argue it all day long.
I would not suggest blindly merging them, but there are a lot of things on the legacy banlist for which I think banning in edh would help the format a lot.
I look at the Commander banlist sort of like a guideline containing examples of types of cards that are generally frowned on in casual play. Not very useful for balancing the format for competitive play but that's fine because that's not the purpose of their banlist. It's about encouraging building fun decks for casual play and it seems like it does a good job of doing that as it stands. Since I don't think it's broke I'm not in favor of trying to fix it.
The Legacy banlist is for 1on1 play and not at all suited for multiplayer. Commander, like all formats, should have a banlist tailored for its needs and not one ported over from a format with completely different rules.
let those of us who are responsible use the cards freely.
I seriously hate that expression in this context. You can't just go around and say spikes are irresponsible just because they enjoy the game in a different way.
What, you don't think Spikes are bad people?
I value and appreciate all play styles but taking cards away because griefers gonna grief (better?) is a bummer. I advocate a smaller ban list and if someone wants to durdle on turn 3 for 10 minutes while they win then either they are in a group that's into that or they'll find themselves on the outside looking in.
I was using "responsible" in the same vein as "drink responsibly".
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"I think EDH would be more fun for the majority of participants if players just showed eachother their decks rather than actually playing games out."
From your description I would think that you're saying that the main advantage is that it "fixes" the format in a way that you don't think the RC is going to do, thus partially removing them from the equation.
And that's fine as far as it goes, but even if I think more cards should be banned, I would think that banning them individually is the better way to go than a blanket adoption of the Legacy banned list. There are just too many cards on it that don't need to be there and since the RC still has to ban cards on top of that list, that seems like it would be just as unwieldy. I mean, its not like most people that understand the format can't quickly list off the worst of the fast mana cards. If we wanted to ban them, than just ban them, but the RC is not really interested in making a balanced format, for better or worse, which is often very frustrating for people.
I just scrolled back 10 pages and didn't see nearly enough talk about the current nemesis to the format: prophet of kruphix.
I play a lot of EDH on MTGO, and currently the card is warping the format beyond anything else. It's come to the point that if you face a UG mage then you better go all in or else it will end in a prophet lock for them. When I first saw the card, I thought it wasn't much better than a seedborn muse, but adding on Teferi's ability for free turns out to break the card in half.
Anyway, I was just wondering if this stupidly designed card was on the RC watch list at all?
I just scrolled back 10 pages and didn't see nearly enough talk about the current nemesis to the format: prophet of kruphix.
I play a lot of EDH on MTGO, and currently the card is warping the format beyond anything else. It's come to the point that if you face a UG mage then you better go all in or else it will end in a prophet lock for them. When I first saw the card, I thought it wasn't much better than a seedborn muse, but adding on Teferi's ability for free turns out to break the card in half.
Anyway, I was just wondering if this stupidly designed card was on the RC watch list at all?
It's not that bad, considering you can get the same effect out of a number of combination of cards. Add on the fact that Prophet has no evasion and no defense from any type of removal, it's hardly banworthy. Just kill it.
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Old enough to know better, much too young to care.
Yes, it sounds very easy to kill in theory, however you have to wade through the counters in his hand and/or any greaves and such on the field. It is especially bad in conjunction with Prime Speaker Zegana as she flashes in to refill the prophet owners hand with more protection. You are correct that there are many other cards that do similar things as the prophet, however none of them do it in such an efficiently costed package in the 2 best colours of EDH. In about the last 6 games where prophet was played, the controller easily won the game, myself included for one of those. Small sample size I know, but the card is definitely a problem. OH, and your argument about no evasion on the prophet is silly since one should NEVER be attacking with her!
If you can't handle a non-evasion, non-hexproof/indestructable/protectioned creature that he still has to cast on his turn at sorcery speed, in EDH, then maybe the problem is with your deck, not this one card your opponent has.
Yes, it sounds very easy to kill in theory, however you have to wade through the counters in his hand and/or any greaves and such on the field. It is especially bad in conjunction with Prime Speaker Zegana as she flashes in to refill the prophet owners hand with more protection. You are correct that there are many other cards that do similar things as the prophet, however none of them do it in such an efficiently costed package in the 2 best colours of EDH. In about the last 6 games where prophet was played, the controller easily won the game, myself included for one of those. Small sample size I know, but the card is definitely a problem. OH, and your argument about no evasion on the prophet is silly since one should NEVER be attacking with her!
Honestly you could take any deck that runs Prophet, and just cut it for another efficient tutor for Seedborn Muse, and the deck would be almost identically as powerful. The Seedborn effect is really what's good there, and it's available on other cards that have been legal for literally forever.
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I just scrolled back 10 pages and didn't see nearly enough talk about the current nemesis to the format: prophet of kruphix.
I play a lot of EDH on MTGO, and currently the card is warping the format beyond anything else. It's come to the point that if you face a UG mage then you better go all in or else it will end in a prophet lock for them. When I first saw the card, I thought it wasn't much better than a seedborn muse, but adding on Teferi's ability for free turns out to break the card in half.
Anyway, I was just wondering if this stupidly designed card was on the RC watch list at all?
There's no Watchlist that the RC maintains, but it and other cards that people are vocal about here and on the official forums are cards that they keep an eye on.
If you can't handle a non-evasion, non-hexproof/indestructable/protectioned creature that he still has to cast on his turn at sorcery speed, in EDH, then maybe the problem is with your deck, not this one card your opponent has.
Of course you need to run answers. My point is that the card is warping the format so you have to immediately deal with it, watch for it constantly, be worried about bribery etc. It's the same arguments for banning Prime time and Sylvain Prime time.
Yes, it sounds very easy to kill in theory, however you have to wade through the counters in his hand and/or any greaves and such on the field. It is especially bad in conjunction with Prime Speaker Zegana as she flashes in to refill the prophet owners hand with more protection. You are correct that there are many other cards that do similar things as the prophet, however none of them do it in such an efficiently costed package in the 2 best colours of EDH. In about the last 6 games where prophet was played, the controller easily won the game, myself included for one of those. Small sample size I know, but the card is definitely a problem. OH, and your argument about no evasion on the prophet is silly since one should NEVER be attacking with her!
Honestly you could take any deck that runs Prophet, and just cut it for another efficient tutor for Seedborn Muse, and the deck would be almost identically as powerful. The Seedborn effect is really what's good there, and it's available on other cards that have been legal for literally forever.
Completely wrong. You have obviously never sat down against an UG deck with prophet. Flashing in creatures is a HUGE benefit and makes prophet a much better card than muse. Play against it and see what I mean.
If you can't handle a non-evasion, non-hexproof/indestructable/protectioned creature that he still has to cast on his turn at sorcery speed, in EDH, then maybe the problem is with your deck, not this one card your opponent has.
Of course you need to run answers. My point is that the card is warping the format so you have to immediately deal with it, watch for it constantly, be worried about bribery etc. It's the same arguments for banning Prime time and Sylvain Prime time.
It's no different than any other bomb that people play in EDH (Terastodon comes to mind). Honestly I think it's rediculous that as soon as someone loses to a card in EDH, instead of finding ways to deal with it, they come on here crying for a ban. Prophet of Kruphix does nothing special on his own, he is an enabler for other bombs. You can deal with it, and if you can't your deck needs some looking at.
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Old enough to know better, much too young to care.
Actually, I won off of the card several times so I am not complaining about losing to it. The card is not just a 'bomb', it is a combo engine that breaks 2 key game rules at the same time. Terastodon is a big dumb creature that breaks nothing, so not sure how you can could consider that a close comparison here.
Actually, I won off of the card several times so I am not complaining about losing to it. The card is not just a 'bomb', it is a combo engine that breaks 2 key game rules at the same time.
What 'game rules' does he break? Are you just making things up now?
Terastodon is a big dumb creature that breaks nothing, so not sure how you can could consider that a close comparison here.
I'm comparing the fact that Terastodon has an IMMEDIATE effect on the board state, and is a threat himself, whereas Prophet is just a 2/3 dude that literally does nothing until the next upkeep. The comparison being - you have a chance to deal with Prophet whereas Terastodon makes you pay as soon as he shows up - so how is Prophet so "unbeatable" when he gives you more chances and less an immediate impact than a card you just deemed "big dumb creature that breaks nothing"?
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Old enough to know better, much too young to care.
Terastodon is a big dumb creature that breaks nothing, so not sure how you can could consider that a close comparison here.
I'm comparing the fact that Terastodon has an IMMEDIATE effect on the board state, and is a threat himself, whereas Prophet is just a 2/3 dude that literally does nothing until the next upkeep. The comparison being - you have a chance to deal with Prophet whereas Terastodon makes you pay as soon as he shows up - so how is Prophet so "unbeatable" when he gives you more chances and less an immediate impact than a card you just deemed "big dumb creature that breaks nothing"?
You need to deal with the prophet as soon as it shows up as well (i.e. instant speed response) otherwise he will counter your removal on your next turn. Losing 3 lands to Tera can cripple one player, no doubt about it, but an unanswered prophet dominates entire game tables.
What 'game rules' does he break? Are you just making things up now?
Umm, the whole playing creatures as an instant and untapping your mana and guys every upkeep rules? Did I really need to explain this?
LOL? There's rules against that? Are there rules against casting counterspells too? Or how about rules against attacking with creatures?
You seriously are just making up stuff now. I'm done trying to discuss this with you.
To be fair, MtG is an exception-based system. Under normal circumstances you can't cast creature spells at instant speed or untap permanents during an opponent's turn. Not that I'm disagreeing with you on PoK, just saying that is isn't normal to do those things.
Hammer may not understand the idea of exception-based design.
I'm going to disagree and say that Mana Crypt absolutely does not go in every deck. You're forgetting that Mana Crypt has a drawback in that it on average costs 1.5 life per turn, which means that it is really only good in a deck with a proactive game plan. I would be hesitant to include it in any control deck. The card also has an issue where it only makes colorless mana, which may be less desirable then a colored source of mana in the most popular EDH decks, which tend to be 3 colors. In looking at many many decklists on this website I have almost never seen it included in a decklist, which may be due to the decks creator not owning one, but even our wonderful EDH primer section fails to recommend the Mana Crypt in decklists, but also recommend other very expensive cards like Imperial Recruiter.
On the issue of merging the legacy/vintage lists together; it seems like the argument is coming from a very strange direction.
What I'm seeing is:
A: We should use the eternal format ban list!
B: But that has very silly cards on it that would not and should not be banned in EDH!
A: But it also has tutors and mana rocks, those need to be banned!
What I don't get is that if Sol Ring and Vamp, Demonic, Imperial, and Mystical tutor are such problems; why aren't we just talking about those cards? There is no way that the RC to just bindly adopt a ban list that is made for a very different format, not for EDH.
I'd much rather have a discussion about the perceived problem cards, tutors and mana rocks, because the current problem with just mass banning stuff based on the eternal ban list is that you end up banning lots and lots of cards that should be fair game in EDH; like Demonic Consultation, Ponder, Brainstorm, and Merchant Scroll. I 'm not a fan of that much collateral damage.
One thing to keep in mind when you look at an eternal format banned/restricted list is that you have to remember that if any card were not on that list then it would be legal as a 4-of in any deck in that format. In our 100 card singleton decks, even very strong cards in Legacy or Vintage often fail to have the same impact that they would as 4-ofs in a 60 card deck.
Thank you. I have no problem if anyone wants to use the Legacy ban list as a springboard to discuss individual cards which should be banned in Commander, but if someone blindly wants to merge the two lists (or worse, just use the one list), I'm going to stubbornly argue it all day long.
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Spikes are gonna Spike with whatever is available, let those of us who are responsible use the cards freely.
In the little testing I've done with Gifts and Nightmare I've concluded that they're busted even when used responsibly.
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Never. Trust. Anyone.
So no tutors for my playgroup. Everyone wins. lol
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Define "responsible". Cause so far the only responsible use I've seen of Gifts Ungiven has been to sell it to a Modern player.
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Basically this.
I get that 60 card 4-max produces problem cards that are not problems in 99-singleton. I also get that some cards like PT cause problems with "fun" in EDH rather than competition, and those should be banned as well. I wasn't suggesting that EDH bans be limited to Legacy bans, only include the Legacy bans. Essentially, it would start there but not end there.
The main advantage is administration. Some guy in Alaska who only plays creature-ball decks might think that Mystical Tutor is a silly card, and not ban-worthy at all. It would be great if that creature-ball player had an idea of what play was like in other groups. But good sense being such a rare quality, and one that human beings have always found more or less impossible to transfer, you really don't want to have to engage with that guy about why Mystical Tutor is busted. Just on the last page, Memory Jar was discussed between two well-meaning, experienced players with a different opinion on how unbalancing the card was. There will probably also be holdouts on cards like Necropotence and Survival of the Fittest. But if a categorical ban is overbroad and gets a card like Frantic Search, sure, most people consider it just fine, but banning it is just a price you have to pay for the efficiency of taking Legacy bans as a whole. Honestly, all of these cards that are banned in Legacy but obviously not broken in EDH are not very widely played, and are often even suboptimal. So, there would be no huge outcry if something like Black Vise dropped out of the format. I think the efficiency there is worth it, because despite the incongruity, at least the competition committee for Legacy is actually interested in policing the format of delinquent, unbalancing cards. The RC is overtly committed to avoiding that. So, we are left with a Vintage minus Power-9 baseline that's not suitable at all for a balanced format, even if people are trying in good faith to strategize against one another.
A Legacy baseline just makes more sense for a "Casual" or "Social" format, anyway. If it's too cutthroat or powerful to be allowed in a fast-paced, combo-rich Legacy format, who's going to see the same card as sporting and fun in Casual?
I would not suggest blindly merging them, but there are a lot of things on the legacy banlist for which I think banning in edh would help the format a lot.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
What, you don't think Spikes are bad people?
I value and appreciate all play styles but taking cards away because griefers gonna grief (better?) is a bummer. I advocate a smaller ban list and if someone wants to durdle on turn 3 for 10 minutes while they win then either they are in a group that's into that or they'll find themselves on the outside looking in.
I was using "responsible" in the same vein as "drink responsibly".
From your description I would think that you're saying that the main advantage is that it "fixes" the format in a way that you don't think the RC is going to do, thus partially removing them from the equation.
And that's fine as far as it goes, but even if I think more cards should be banned, I would think that banning them individually is the better way to go than a blanket adoption of the Legacy banned list. There are just too many cards on it that don't need to be there and since the RC still has to ban cards on top of that list, that seems like it would be just as unwieldy. I mean, its not like most people that understand the format can't quickly list off the worst of the fast mana cards. If we wanted to ban them, than just ban them, but the RC is not really interested in making a balanced format, for better or worse, which is often very frustrating for people.
I play a lot of EDH on MTGO, and currently the card is warping the format beyond anything else. It's come to the point that if you face a UG mage then you better go all in or else it will end in a prophet lock for them. When I first saw the card, I thought it wasn't much better than a seedborn muse, but adding on Teferi's ability for free turns out to break the card in half.
Anyway, I was just wondering if this stupidly designed card was on the RC watch list at all?
It's not that bad, considering you can get the same effect out of a number of combination of cards. Add on the fact that Prophet has no evasion and no defense from any type of removal, it's hardly banworthy. Just kill it.
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StaffHonestly you could take any deck that runs Prophet, and just cut it for another efficient tutor for Seedborn Muse, and the deck would be almost identically as powerful. The Seedborn effect is really what's good there, and it's available on other cards that have been legal for literally forever.
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There's no Watchlist that the RC maintains, but it and other cards that people are vocal about here and on the official forums are cards that they keep an eye on.
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Of course you need to run answers. My point is that the card is warping the format so you have to immediately deal with it, watch for it constantly, be worried about bribery etc. It's the same arguments for banning Prime time and Sylvain Prime time.
Completely wrong. You have obviously never sat down against an UG deck with prophet. Flashing in creatures is a HUGE benefit and makes prophet a much better card than muse. Play against it and see what I mean.
It's no different than any other bomb that people play in EDH (Terastodon comes to mind). Honestly I think it's rediculous that as soon as someone loses to a card in EDH, instead of finding ways to deal with it, they come on here crying for a ban. Prophet of Kruphix does nothing special on his own, he is an enabler for other bombs. You can deal with it, and if you can't your deck needs some looking at.
What 'game rules' does he break? Are you just making things up now?
I'm comparing the fact that Terastodon has an IMMEDIATE effect on the board state, and is a threat himself, whereas Prophet is just a 2/3 dude that literally does nothing until the next upkeep. The comparison being - you have a chance to deal with Prophet whereas Terastodon makes you pay as soon as he shows up - so how is Prophet so "unbeatable" when he gives you more chances and less an immediate impact than a card you just deemed "big dumb creature that breaks nothing"?
Umm, the whole playing creatures as an instant and untapping your mana and guys every upkeep rules? Did I really need to explain this?
You need to deal with the prophet as soon as it shows up as well (i.e. instant speed response) otherwise he will counter your removal on your next turn. Losing 3 lands to Tera can cripple one player, no doubt about it, but an unanswered prophet dominates entire game tables.
There's rules against that? Are there rules against casting counterspells too? Or how about rules against attacking with creatures?
You seriously are just making up stuff now. I'm done trying to discuss this with you.
To be fair, MtG is an exception-based system. Under normal circumstances you can't cast creature spells at instant speed or untap permanents during an opponent's turn. Not that I'm disagreeing with you on PoK, just saying that is isn't normal to do those things.
Hammer may not understand the idea of exception-based design.
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